1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) I am a newer collector (since I joined the forum) but I wouldn’t call myself less selective. I am not into the Anime side of this hobby nearly as much as other members of the forum though. I watched RT when I was a kid and I just watched all of the Macross SDF, Mac+ and Mac Zero in the last year to see what I had missed as a kid (SDF) and since. I enjoyed them very much but I doubt I will ever load them up and watch them again. Back to the toys though. I got my first couple of toys because I thought they were cool and I had wished I had saved mine from when I was a kid. The toy that started all of this for me was the Gakken Ride Armor (yes I know that’s not Macross). I saw a mint one on eBay and picked it up because I did have a few of those when I was a kid and I am a huge motorcycle fan anyway. I certainly didn’t get it because it’s line accurate though. That thing is horrible! But it does bring back some fond childhood memories for me and it’s just plain cool. Once I got the Ride Armor toy I figured I had better get a VF-1 to because I was also way into them when I was a kid. Of course when I was a kid I had to pretend my Jetfire was a VF-1 because I had never seen a real Macross (or RT) toy. I even tried a couple of Jetfire-VF-1S conversions when I was a kid because the VF-1S always stuck with me as my favorite. The conversions I attempted were miserable failures though. When I went in search of a cool VF-1S to go with my newly acquired Ride Armor I stumbled across the Toynami Mastercrap collection stuff (I was searching RT not Macross) and got a couple of them. At this point I still didn’t know the difference between Macross and RT though. Actually I didn’t even know what Macross was. Then I stumbled across this forum and made a huge mistake by calling a Valkyrie a Veritech in one of my first posts and got pounced on by half the forum and directed to the section with the history of Macross/RT. After reading the sordid history of RT I wanted to get rid of the Mastercrap stuff I got and get myself some “real” Macross toys. At that point I did a search on Macross toys and came across the Yamato 1/48 line. I ordered one, got it, opened it up, and was hooked! To me the Yamato VF-1S 1/48 was the absolute ultimate when it came to getting what I had always wanted when I was a kid. Did I even notice that it wasn’t exactly line art accurate? Nope. If I had noticed would I have cared? Nope. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen. The only way it could have been better is if they were even bigger. Shortly after getting my first VF-1S I saw a picture of a YF-19 1/60 and had to have it. At the time I had no idea what it was from aside from being some sort of Macross toy. I had no line art in my head to compare it too and I didn’t even know there was such a thing as Mac+. All I knew was that it looked incredible and I had to have one. Then I saw a VF-0S 1/60 and thought it was beautiful! Once again, not knowing where it landed in the Macross universe and having no line art in my head to compare it too. Of course everyone knows that at that point I was doomed and I got a lot more Yamato Macross toys. I was buying them because I thought they just plain looked cool. I loved sitting in my office and just looking at them on my shelves. To me they were purely art. They had no connection to the Macross shows/movies because I had still not seen them yet. So to sort of answer your question Graham, line art accuracy was a non issue for me. I liked how they looked in a vacuum (no line art and no shows to compare them too). Even after watching all of the Macross shows/Movies it never once entered my mind that the toys I had on my shelves were not 100% line art accurate. I thought they looked cool in the shows and I liked how they looked on the shelf. A total non issue. I watched the shows for entertainment and I collected the toys because they looked cool. Now for the second part of your question about newer collectors liking them to be “chunky”. I have to admit that I do like the slightly chunky look opposed to some of the more line art accurate stuff. A perfect example is the 1/48 VF-1S vs. the 1/60 VF-1S ver.2. I think the 1/48 simply looks better. It looks tougher, meaner and just plain menacing. Don’t get me wrong, the 1/60 ver.2 is very attractive, but the thinner dimensions don’t do it for me as much as it’s bigger brother. I won’t be purchasing any of the 1/60 ver.2 toys unless they are offering something that was not offered in 1/48 scale. For example I ordered a 1/60 ver.2 VF-1A Higgy with S&S parts but skipped the VF-1S. There is a limit to the “chunky” look though for me. The Chunky Monkeys don’t do a thing for me. I don’t find them attractive. Now for the VF-25 and it’s “chunkiness” which is the topic of discussion here. I have not seen any line art of the VF-25 and I have not seen one episode of Frontier yet. So when I look at the examples from Bandai I am seeing it in a vacuum, and I think it looks cool. If the toy ends up having decent quality I will most likely get one because I think it would look great on my shelf. It’s a great looking toy. If after I see some line art or an episode will the “chunkiness” bother me? I doubt it. It’s still a good looking toy. So to sum up the perspective of a “new collector” I am not very concerned about line art accuracy as long as the toy looks cool. I am purchasing a toy that I think is attractive and turns me on. I am not trying to buy a “piece” of the show. Does that make sense? And as far as “chunkiness” in general I gotta say as long as it’s not overboard (like the chunky monkeys) I like the look. As far as line art accuracy goes I am attracted to the idea though. Who wouldn’t be? It is certainly appealing to have a toy that in your head is “perfect” and no compromises were made. It’s the same type of attraction as wanting to have one of every 1/48 for your collection. I guess I am just easy to please. If it’s not exactly line accurate and still looks stunning (1/48’s) I want one. If it is line art accurate and is stunning (1/60 ver.2) I want one of those too. To me it simply boils down to if I think it’s attractive or not on its own merits. Line art accuracy is a secondary consideration. Now in regards to why Bandai may have decided to add some chunkiness to the VF-25. From reading this thread I think it is universally agreed upon that if Bandai wanted to make them more or 100% line accurate they have the capability of doing it. So then the question arises why make them chunky? I doubt that it was intentionally done because a market study showed that the largest buying demographic prefers a chunky version. I would be surprised if they even did a market study at all. Studies like that are very expensive and when dealing with a product like this very hard to get a large enough test group to make the data you do get anything more than a probability, let alone definitive findings. I would bet money that the decision on the final design was made completely in house. Secondly is manufacturing techniques. Manufacturing is very difficult. The most difficulty is being able to manufacture something is finding a way of doing it where you can meet your desired selling price and keep the cost of each unit to where you want it so you can make money at it. A lot of what goes into a final design is based on how easy it will be to produce. There are millions of variables that will raise or lower the cost of production. Some are obvious like the amount of material or what kind is used for example. But some are not so obvious like is the assembly line big enough or efficient enough to keep costs down. If they have to re-tool a lot of their existing infrastructure to produce a product it will have to be factored into the cost per unit. And that re-tooling can cost an astounding amount of money. Another example is that in a certain scale certain shaped pieces may require more steps to make or may need to be made out of multiple smaller pieces. This also can dramatically affect the cost of production. And the above examples are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to manufacturing decisions. Someone earlier had mentioned why not just “grow” the 1/72 scale design to 1/60 and be done with it. That idea sounds simple, but in practice it is not. Smaller pieces are inherently stronger than larger ones are because the flat unsupported sides of a piece are closer to a corner or a “bend” which is what gives the part its strength. If you were to simply “grow” that part and all other things remained equal the larger parts would be more prone to breakage because there would be bigger stretches of material that are effectively not reinforced. A good analogy for this is why the Earth doesn’t have a population of large (4ft long) insects that have exoskeletons. At a certain point to achieve that larger size the exoskeleton would need to weigh so much that the insect would effectively become uncompetitive in the food chain and die out immediately. When scaling something up the changes are exponential, not linear. All of the examples above are possible reasons why the 1/60 was designed the way it was. And unless you had a background in Business Marketing you wouldn’t have be expected to consider things like market studies (I have my BBA with a minor in Marketing) or production challenges and how quickly they can make the cost per unit soar right past the targeted amount (at this point in my life I design and manufacture parts/ products for motorcycles). I couldn’t possibly express how production and marketing decisions effect the per unit cost of a product. Everything boils down a cost/benefit analysis. Absolutely everything. I hope whomever reads this enjoys it and helps them to understand this from a different perspective. And it would be great if what I have written explains why things may be the way they are and because of that some of you may be more likely be ably to look past some of the VF-25’s shortcomings and enjoy the toy for what it is. But please understand I am not trying in any way to pick a fight with those of you that think line art accuracy is incredibly important. I completely understand what drives people to want them that way and I respect that a lot. In my eyes line art accuracy doesn’t boil down to a right or wrong situation. Each of us has their own drive and reasoning to purchase what they do. I just thought I could answer Graham’s question about “less selective buyers”. Which I would rather define as “different criteria buyers”. I don’t consider my buying practices “less selective” in any way. I just have different motivations and goals. This is one of those wonderful situations where everyone can be right. And for those of you that read this whole post, thanks. It took me forever to put together. Awesome post. Yeah I read all of it. I found it very interesting. Having said that though: if you had a choice to buy a 1/60 that looked like the current toy, or a 1/60 that looked just like the 1/72 model kit, which would you choose? I just find if I were one of the companies I would want my customers to be honest with me and tell me if my toy sucks and where it does so that I can work towards making them happier which results in them spending more money buying stuff. For me one of the things that turned me off the 1/48 were the skinny hands. It was just out of proportion imo to the rest of the robot. Whenever I complain about chicken hands I really do like to see improvements in those so that they look closer to what bandai can do. Stuff like that can't be that hard to spend a little money on for yamato can it? In the past we complained about all the small things like tampo prints and luckily for us over time they've slowly improved on it. (there was no good reason imo why they couldn't have included printing on the sides of the koenig monster for example) Some stuff yamato doesn't deliver on, other toy companies do with ease, while some stuff other toy companies don't deliver on, yamato does. Argh wouldn't it be nice if we got that one toy company that got it all right? Oh and yeah, despite what some people say: there is no perfect proportion of the valk. Some of the shapes are deformed due to anime magic on some of them. So that when you look at the lineart for each mode it might look out of shape if that one mode had to be made to transform into the other mode using its existing proportions. (VF-1 is a classic example where the nosecone goes all stubby when in robot mode to look tougher) Edited October 11, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Nice post Sqidd! Nice to get a view from someone who is interested in the VF-25 design and hasn't seen Frontier yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miriya Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) That was beautiful Sqidd! Thanks for the post. I read the whole thing. Great contribution. EDIT: I took out the post for visual reasons. It is already copied here several times. Edited October 11, 2008 by miriya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Train Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) This might have seen this mentioned earlier, but will Bandai package the DX VF-25 with fast/armor-packs (or whatever they're called in Frontier), or is that being released separately? Edited October 11, 2008 by Ghost Train Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenius Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 To be sold separately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0n5t3r Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I am a newer collector (since I joined the forum) but I wouldn’t call myself less selective.... whew, that was long. but yeah, i guess we just need to let the kid in us just enjoy these "toys" instead of over-analyzing everything. If you have the money and think you'll like it just the way it is, then buy it. If not then don't buy it. If you're not sure and you have money to spare, buy it and keep it for a week and if you end up not being satisfied, then sell it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I am still absolutely certain that Bandai could have done better on designing and making this VF-25 toy though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 To be sold separately. Just for Alto and Ozma, Michel and Luca are said to come with their respective packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 (edited) Well, I guess that they are the best thing that is going to be out there for the moment. I'll be buying one of each. No multiples. Doesn't seem to deserve that privilege. Edited October 12, 2008 by kensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 They are growing on my more and more. One thing that really bugs me about battroid mode which nobody else seems to have mentoned is the upper arms (bicep area). They just look too thick IMO. I can live with the too high hips, too long ankles, but the upper arms really bug me for some reason. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Its just that I don't have a mode that i am proud of in this version. GERWALK mode is the ugliest due to the primitive knee design that Bandai has made. Battroid and Fighter mode are just a step up to so-so, I don't see one better than the other. Pity that the fighter is not as good I it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anime52k8 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 They are growing on my more and more. One thing that really bugs me about battroid mode which nobody else seems to have mentoned is the upper arms (bicep area). They just look too thick IMO. I can live with the too high hips, too long ankles, but the upper arms really bug me for some reason. Graham the do look fat, but when you look at the toy and the official images side by side, the toy isn't really any fatter than the animation. it just has fat arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anime52k8 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I am still absolutely certain that Bandai could have done better on designing and making this VF-25 toy though. you're right, they could have done better, but they didn't. and you know why? because they hate you. they knew it would piss you off and they like seeing you all angry. because of you everyone else in the world gets a crappier toy, I hope you're happy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumdumgai Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I knew Bandai had something against me, and now all must suffer because of it! But in the end, again, it still was Bandai's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpaz Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Having grown up a Transformers fan, I was just used to the idea that "show accurate" basically meant this: So maybe my perspective is tainted by bad habits... Pete Hahaha!!! Very good one! I love it (and agree somewhat to the same TF-addiction...) Nice. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcpaz Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 (edited) They are growing on my more and more. One thing that really bugs me about battroid mode which nobody else seems to have mentoned is the upper arms (bicep area). They just look too thick IMO. I can live with the too high hips, too long ankles, but the upper arms really bug me for some reason. Graham Mmmm... Guess it has to due with Bandai and steroids. Look at 1/55's deltoids... Man, that were deltoids! Anyway, I feel dissapointed Yamato didn't make it to get the license. I would so much like to get a Yammie VF-25... Crap. At the beggining, it was kinda cool to expect something new from Bandai (ala Takara Masterpieces or so), so expectations were set high. Time has passed, and it turned out to have been set TOO high. Crap (again). Right now, all we have is to wait a little bit more, praying Bandai's guys do a better work than we think... Fingers crossed, mw'ers! Edited October 12, 2008 by mcpaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonc Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Well, face it, at least it isn't looking like Toynami MPCs. As bad as it may seem to many of you (I have my own things I cringe at), it's not Toynami's Robotech line. I think at that point, I would definitely be shoving this product right back at Bandai. I believe that Macross fans are still in a far better position than what those Robotech fans have to deal with... crappy MPCs, no news, hardly any product, and a cheap new foundation to build their franchise on. We have a lot of great toys so far, several great series, and a solid franchise that doesn't seem finished by a long shot. While we are entitled to our opinions, I think a lot of us have gotten used to the concept of the perfect toy. If they are designing these to be played with, I can see why they may be a bit more chunky. They want people taking these out the box, playing with them, transforming them. I've got mine preordered, and again, I'm gonna reserve my full judgement when I receive it. So far, it's an ok product. I definitely like the Ozuma paint scheme, and that alone makes that toy passable in my book. Only the future will say for certain what we're actually getting. As long as it has a balance of sturdiness with detail, I think it's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miriya Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Is Bandai going to make a transforming Macross Quarter kit or toy? That would be really awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickayesou Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 (edited) news from tamashii website and the link for the japanese text tamashii news the vf-25 of michel and lucas will be availlable in march 2009 the model 1/60 and 1/100 will be present in hobby show ( 16 - 19 octobers in japan ) Edited October 12, 2008 by mickayesou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechinyun Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 From the pixs I have seen it just does not look right. There is no excuse for it, period. Im not gonna bash it really till its out and I can see more pix,vids whatever, but im definitely not pre-ordering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianop Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 If ever Im gonna pick them up, they will probably stay in Fighter mode as its the only mode I can live with in terms of looks. Although actual pics when this comes out may change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transfan52 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The funny thing is that if yamato was making this toy and it looked exactly the same as the pics we have now, ppl would accept it... Just look at the old 1/60 valks... nobody complained about them when they first came out and ppl just accepted the product that was given to them even though it was far from perfect... seems like there is a lot of yamaturds in this forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboy00z Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 news from tamashii website and the link for the japanese text tamashii news the vf-25 of michel and lucas will be availlable in march 2009 the model 1/60 and 1/100 will be present in hobby show ( 16 - 19 octobers in japan ) Why does the japanese tamashii site never work for me?? Any new pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Valkyrie Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 news from tamashii website and the link for the japanese text tamashii news the vf-25 of michel and lucas will be availlable in march 2009 the model 1/60 and 1/100 will be present in hobby show ( 16 - 19 octobers in japan ) Thats good news. VF-25G next next March oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anime52k8 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The funny thing is that if yamato was making this toy and it looked exactly the same as the pics we have now, ppl would accept it... Just look at the old 1/60 valks... nobody complained about them when they first came out and ppl just accepted the product that was given to them even though it was far from perfect... seems like there is a lot of yamaturds in this forum... except for at the time the 1/60 valks came out, they WERE the best VF-1's available at the time, they were more detailed, more posable and better portioned than anything else out there. the problem with the DX is that other companies have done valks that look better and are more accurate to the show depiction than this thing. and bandai has already released a VF-25 that looks more correct than the DX in the form of the 1/72 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 If Yamato tried to re-release the ver.1 1/60 VF-1 now, I doubt anybody would buy it. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrianop Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The funny thing is that if yamato was making this toy and it looked exactly the same as the pics we have now, ppl would accept it... Just look at the old 1/60 valks... nobody complained about them when they first came out and ppl just accepted the product that was given to them even though it was far from perfect... seems like there is a lot of yamaturds in this forum... I wouldn't really care who made what. If it looks good to me and I can afford it, I would buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valk-1S Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Why do people keep comparing the 1/72 model kit to the 1/60 DX line. They are two different items. If Bandai made a 1/72 DX perfect transformable toy that look like the 1/72 model kit than fine you have a valid reason to make a fuss about it. The facts is that Bandai has the license and Yamato will not have it for a while. So this will be the VF-25 available in the market. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But the thing is some people who are negative about the VF-25 will end up buying it still and I said some people, NOT all before I get flamed. I think it looks decent enough for myself. To me the VF-25 looks great in fighter mode and not in battroid mode in the anime. When I first saw it, it looked strange to me. The toy fighter mode looks good, but battroid looks funny as well. It's close to the anime to myself as I am not too picky into the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The funny thing is that if yamato was making this toy and it looked exactly the same as the pics we have now, ppl would accept it... Just look at the old 1/60 valks... nobody complained about them when they first came out and ppl just accepted the product that was given to them even though it was far from perfect. Well - the problem with this reasoning is that - to date - my V.1 1/60 VE-1 is the best available on the market. But I'm going to just restate for posterity that so far I like the DX; I hope the canopy is clear and we get a pilot figure...and I'm curious to actually see the final product. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickayesou Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) apparently, this image is not the version dx 1/60 but the vf-25f of the new range vf-100 in japanese VF100 Series 1/100 MacrossF VF-25F 已上色sample公開 that explains the various pieces. in background, there are the prototypes of vf-25 of lucas and Michel Edited October 13, 2008 by mickayesou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akt_m Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 If i were to do a 3d model based of photos from toys, what VF-25 toy would be the most accurate ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tober Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 If i were to do a 3d model based of photos from toys, what VF-25 toy would be the most accurate ??? The toys wouldn't provide you with the best 3D sources. Invest in the model kit instead, that way you can see the individeul pieces unassembled. Model kit instructions often have isometric views too which are extremely useful for 3D modeling. Plus it's alot cheaper. I've done it several times using toys and kits as sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akt_m Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The toys wouldn't provide you with the best 3D sources. Invest in the model kit instead, that way you can see the individeul pieces unassembled. Model kit instructions often have isometric views too which are extremely useful for 3D modeling. Plus it's alot cheaper. I've done it several times using toys and kits as sources. Well.. i don't want to but anything... But are the model kits transformable??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDimensionalDave Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 (edited) How's about this? I don't think the Bandai DX toy looks 100% flawlessly accurate to the show. I am glad. I prefer it. The model on the series looks far too lanky and girly compared to the DX toy which is beefier and tougher looking. I do not wish the toy looked more like the one seen on T.V. Rather I wish the one on T.V looked more like the toy. As far as Yamato goes. I love their toys. Some of my all-time favorites are from Yamato (Koenig Monster/1/48 Strike/Q-Rau) but I welcome a real new Bandai Valk that I can play with without picking at small parts with my fingernail and holding my breath in panic everytime I handle the thing. $.02 Edited October 13, 2008 by SuperDimensionalDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tober Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Well.. i don't want to but anything... But are the model kits transformable??? The Bandai VF-25 is. (The various other Hasegawa kits are not). Bandai 1/72 Scale Macross Frontier Plastic Models, Official Discussion Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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