Bandai 1/60 DX VF-25 transformable toy thread

[UN_MARINE]

that's kind of a double-edged sword.

on one hand, yes, we can ignore the product & hopefully they get their act together & make us a better one.

but that can also bite us back in the ass.

since they're bigger & have been around longer, they could just as well say

"see? we knew this wouldn't sell. cancel all the other projects related to this & go back to the product that does sell."

that's something the big company has over us. ego. they could drop this market like it was another day in the park. 'cuz they can!

sure, i'm not too happy about how this turned out, but i also want them to keep paying attention to this market.

so we can finally have our friggin' re-issue Strikes, Elints & Super-O's !!!

[OmegaD3k]

Now that would be an interesting idea...

Yamato securing the Macross Frontier Movie license...

[Mechamaniac]

If Yamato had this license, then there would be 10 different "What's broken on yours", "what parts are missing", "missing/wrong head" threads, and cries of "Why Yamato WHY???"

Bandai makes them and they're chunky monkeys.

Who remembers a decade ago when there were NO MACROSS TOYS that weren't vintage and didn't cost a mortgage payment.

You guys are impossible to please.

[Graham]

Graham, slightly OT. You said that there is a possiability that Bandai may block the license for good...would that apply to the Frontier Movie as well? DYRL seemed to help get things to us maybe the F movie could do the same?

Chris

No idea, sorry. Probably.

Graham

[Shaggydog]

I agree with Mechamaniac. But oh well, it's in a geek's nature to bitch, I guess.

Graham: you can fix a broken arm, but you can't fix the fear brought on by hearing reports of breakage Hell, sometimes you can't even fix the broken arm properly

Anyways, the super parts will be sold via Tamashii web, but they shouldn't be too hard to come by. I think it's still uncertain whether the rvf-25 and the vf-25g will be sold with super parts. The prototypes are wearing super parts, but the little card doesn't seem to specify one way or the other. (I suspect they will)

[VFTF1]

If Yamato had this license, then there would be 10 different "What's broken on yours", "what parts are missing", "missing/wrong head" threads, and cries of "Why Yamato WHY???"

Bandai makes them and they're chunky monkeys.

Who remembers a decade ago when there were NO MACROSS TOYS that weren't vintage and didn't cost a mortgage payment.

You guys are impossible to please. laugh.gif

Ain't it the truth.

The silly thing - for me at least - is this:

In all threads where there is "Yamato! You suck! My VF just broke/cracked/fell apart/sprung a leak"

I'm right there defending yamato, noting that it's a very delicate and precise piece with many moving parts, that while it is somewhat durable, it is certainly not a durable "toy" that can be fumbled with, and that ultimately having now bought about a dozen or so Yamatos, only TWO Yamato products were ever faulty/broken out of box on me while the rest are in great condition, look great, work great, are great etc etc etc....

That's when I sometimes feel like the "Blind Yamato lover" that everyone will be against because I just "don't understand" how terrible Yamato is for its' bad QC etc....

But in this thread, where I look at what Bandai has made and say 'I like it' I suddenly become the guy with low expectations

I guess I'm just a realist in many ways. Ultimately they have to get a product out. It's not like the thing is an atrocity. It's not like - say Transformers Movie Starscream which looks NOTHING like the actual Movie character...

Also - in the final analysis, they are trying very hard; both Yamato and Bandai.... They study these things, consult the line art, think about what is practical in terms of materials etc etc...

If there is some minor fault or inconsistency; so what?

Isn't there a thread in the TV section which goes through the BUGS in Macross Frontier?

The show itself has bugs; and the line art is not ever a done deal - some people have even noted that Kawamori's line art of the YF-19, if looked at super-precisely - was self contradicatory and applied some anime magic...

Should we cry about the final product then?

I think that ultimately, line art is just lines. It's putting the thing into physical existence which is the defining moment.

If someone else can do a better job - great. Encouraging better versions is also great.

But it's not like Bandai are giving us some monsterously cruddy thing....

And also - even if Bandai keeps the Frontier license - Yamato still has the DYRL and Plus stuff - and they are doing a great job with it.

Finally - at least Bandai is doing this in 1/60 scale - so our collections from Yamato and Bandai can be inter-compatible.

I just think there is so much going RIGHT in the world of Macross today that it's kind of pointless to complain too much - complaining a bit always helps, pointing out errors always helps - but honestly - maybe I'm blind, maybe someone can put up a picture of what Bandai has made right next to a picture of the line - but it just doesn't look that bad to me.

Pete

[Vifam7]

that's kind of a double-edged sword.

on one hand, yes, we can ignore the product & hopefully they get their act together & make us a better one.

but that can also bite us back in the ass.

since they're bigger & have been around longer, they could just as well say

"see? we knew this wouldn't sell. cancel all the other projects related to this & go back to the product that does sell."

Well it seems that VF-25 model kits are selling well, so that's a good sign.

that's something the big company has over us. ego. they could drop this market like it was another day in the park. 'cuz they can!

Companies don't operate that way. They don't drop an entire product franchise just because one product line doesn't sell.

And every company that wants to stay in business will drop a product if it does not make a profit. Also, in one way a smaller company may be quicker to drop a product than a big company since their margins are slimmer. A big company could absorb more hits than a small company.

[Radd]

I'm not ready to cancel my pre-order yet (though if that "armour packs only through Bandai's website" thing is true, I may have to reconsider), but I can't say with any certainty that I'll nab the whole lot of them, either. I think the criticism of the look of this toy is fair. Those shots of Mikhail and Luca's in the armour packs were fairly cringe-worthy, when we've been spoiled with Yamato's collector's market designs.

Also, I've really not had that many Yamato QC issues. Only two come to mind, the reversed leg latches on the Konig Monster, and one of the gunpods on my old 1/72 YF-21 was glued shut. I don't treat my toys as if they could fall apart at any moment, either. I don't buy them just so they can sit in a sealed display case for eternity. I transform them and re-pose them often. If the quality of Bandai's VF-25 is spectacular, (tight joints, no QC issues, everything locks firmly into place in all modes) then maybe I'll be able to overlook the toy's aesthetic shortcomings somewhat. But with the price tag they're asking, I really kinda expect collector's item attention to detail.

I think the comparisons to the 1/55th Takatoku/Bandai VF-1 toys are an exaggeration, but I can also certainly see why people are saying that. It's chunky, and seems to have poor proportions and is a bit skimpy with detail. It really is more of a "toy" than a "collector's item", if you follow the distinction.

I'm definitely still on for at least one. I may have to think a bit more about whether I want both Alto and Ozma's right away, or if I'd be willing to wait on one until after I've had one in hand to see how I feel about it. I do agree that I'd rather not spend my money if I'm not happy with the toy, even if that means Bandai cuts the line short due to lack of sales. I'd rather no toy, and more money to spend on things I'm happy with, rather than a full line of Frontier toys that I'm just not happy with. Of course, that's assuming I get my first VF-25 and find I don't like it.

[kensei]

You know, part of the reason they display these things at shows are to of course market them. Quality and looks totally aside (due to the design), these guys in charge of the display show jack professionalism in displaying those toys. Half the complaints would be gone if they were displayed properly. Not the pose that currently Michel is portraying. It's like he has a broken back.

Given they may not be into Macross, but they really should think about these things.

The only line that has done this well is the Revoltech lines. Then again, the selling point IS the posability, so they HAD to get it right.

[Black Valkyrie]

If Yamato had this license, then there would be 10 different "What's broken on yours", "what parts are missing", "missing/wrong head" threads, and cries of "Why Yamato WHY???"

Bandai makes them and they're chunky monkeys.

Who remembers a decade ago when there were NO MACROSS TOYS that weren't vintage and didn't cost a mortgage payment.

You guys are impossible to please.

Right said.

[Radd]

Companies don't operate that way. They don't drop an entire product franchise just because one product line doesn't sell.

The people who run these companies aren't always known for making logical decisions. Look at the movie industry. When Final Fantasy the movie came out and bombed in theatres, many studios dropped major CG movie productions. Their reasoning? The public did not want CG movies at that time. When Spider~Man 2 came out, as well as a couple other big name sequels, most of which were pretty well made movies and did well at the box office as a result, production companies came to the conclusion that it was "A year for sequels! People want sequels!"

I'm certain the toy industry, the videogame industry, the music industry, all have similar tales to tell. People are unhappy with the DX VF-25, but the models sell well? It's not a stretch to see them drop the idea of 1/60 toys altogether and concentrate on model kits and other merchandise, rather than dropping the DX and coming out with a new 1/60 toy that would actually appeal more to fans and collectors.

[Vifam7]

I'm certain the toy industry, the videogame industry, the music industry, all have similar tales to tell. People are unhappy with the DX VF-25, but the models sell well? It's not a stretch to see them drop the idea of 1/60 toys altogether and concentrate on model kits and other merchandise, rather than dropping the DX and coming out with a new 1/60 toy that would actually appeal more to fans and collectors.

Ofcourse this is all assuming the DX toy isn't appealing to the buyers and/or won't sell well based only on aesthetics. Maybe it will sell well. Maybe this is exactly what the Japanese fans want.

[Grand Admiral]

Who remembers a decade ago when there were NO MACROSS TOYS that weren't vintage and didn't cost a mortgage payment.

I certainly do. Those were dark times. Today we have a wealth of Macross toys to choose from.

I think the DX 25 looks fine. Sure, it's not 100% accurate, but it's not as bad as everyone here seems to think.

[lechuck]

Point is, you shouldn't have to. Which is the same reason that this may actually be a good thing for all of us, maybe 8-10 years from now, broken arms, Tab B's, canopy hinges, broken hips, chipped intakes, bp8's, missing heads, flawed 1st releases, weak hinges on parts that endure a lot of tension, rubber seepage, incorrect installation of pins into critical hinges, unforseen breakages due to unforseen chemical reactions between contacting plastic pieces, et al will be ghosts in Yamato's past, and they will finally have their quality control problems eliminated so that they can seriously take on the giant company of Bandai. What they do is admirable but their accomplishments which are no easy feat, are easily tarnished by quality control problems. Maybe they can make a VF-25 that doesn't break. Can they do it now? Who the hell knows. Maybe that is the reason Big West is letting Bandai hold onto the license for Frontier so long. Broken VF-0 arms, problems prior to that in recent years, and more recently, some broken VF-1S toys probably didn't inspire a lot of confidence in Big West. Broke toys don't make a profit.

I like the way the 25 is turning out, like how it is more balanced and thicker compared to the model kit, like how the gear is not as long, and like the overall look. I wish the crotch placement was like the model kit's. I wish the nose gear was just a little bit longer, and that the gear overall were more detailed. I don't mind the inaccuracies so long as Bandai was going for specific approaches for a good reason. It is not like Bandai shoved all the robot limbs underneath and made them blatantly obvious, or shove huge gatling guns under the wings to cover up the intakes, then in robot mode, call the gatling guns arms, or simply did away with landing gears to begin with and just make the engine turbines swivel out from under the intakes to serve as landing gear. That is what some modern transforming jet toys do, some as recent as last year.

Exactly my sentiments.

And to add to that, if I applied the exact same level of bitching criteria on Yamatos YF-19 and YF-21 then they are to be considered fail too (which funny enough most of you don't think so).

Coincidentally the YF-19 suffers from the exact opposite of the Bandai, it's an anorexic robot that looks like it practices Bulemia as a pastime. The YF-21 - what can I say - is a giant hulk of plastic supported by two small tubes with stumps on them. None of them really look like something I saw on screen and have nothing in common with the almighty line art that everybody likes to cite.

And if you think cart wheels, missing clear parts and none articulate hands are lazy and stupid decisions of Bandai, then you will have to remind yourself of Yamato using this the great idea of relying on gravity to hold the chest section of YF-19 together or the baffling decision to leave out the side covers for their third rendition of the VF-1.

I bought the YF-19, because I think (to date) it's a good representation, even though it deviates heavily from what I have seen in M+. I skipped the YF-21 because the over-emphasis on fighter mode and the lackluster approach on Battroid mode killed it for me. Both of these could IMO be improved/corrected in shape and form. Same goes for the VF-25. It's not 100% correct and could benefit from some refinement in some areas. But at the same time this does not make this Valk a complete failure that only Yamato could have done right.

Buy it if you like it, and if not then use that money for some other merchandise on your wish list.

Plain and simple.

[Spitze]

lechuck: Don't forget that we give the YFs some leeway with the toys because it's constantly 2d represented and the proportions sometimes are off. With the VF-25 there's little leeway since 3d models were involved and the models/toys were conceived alongside it.

[Radd]

Ofcourse this is all assuming the DX toy isn't appealing to the buyers and/or won't sell well based only on aesthetics. Maybe it will sell well. Maybe this is exactly what the Japanese fans want.

Of course.

And to add to that, if I applied the exact same level of bitching criteria on Yamatos YF-19 and YF-21 then they are to be considered fail too (which funny enough most of you don't think so).

While certainly one could get all bent out of shape that the YF-19 and 21 don't look "exactly" as they do onscreen, they're definitely not perfect, but it's a stretch to make a direct comparison in regards to what we've seen of the DX. For all their flaws, they are still more "model-like" in appearance, whereas, if the photos are an accurate depiction of the final product, no one would confuse the DX VF-25 with a model. It looks like a toy. Citing the lack of side covers on the new 1/60 VF-1 does nothing to strengthen the argument, and I'm not certain what you mean about "using gravity to hold the YF-19 upper body in place. Mine snaps together.

Of course, looking like a toy is not necessarily a bad thing, if there is a gain of durability, quality parts, and reduced price, but given we've no idea on the quality and durability, and being aware of the cost they are asking, and that most of us are probably used to the "collector's item" appearance of Yamato's offerings for not much more, it might not be what everyone here was hoping to see. No toy is ever going to completely satisfy what everyone wants out of a depiction of their favourite Valkyrie, but it's unreasonable to suggest everyone should simply be happy with what they get.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Radd

[Vifam7]

lechuck: Don't forget that we give the YFs some leeway with the toys because it's constantly 2d represented and the proportions sometimes are off. With the VF-25 there's little leeway since 3d models were involved and the models/toys were conceived alongside it.

But just because the VF-25 was created using computer models doesn't automatically mean it can easily be made into identical sculpt toy. I mean, sure it was conceived at the sametime but when you start adding gimmicks to a toy there's no doubt that certain things have to be compromised along the way. Ofcourse the difficulty for a toy designer is deciding what to compromise and what not to compromise.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Vifam7

[Dante74]

But just because the VF-25 was created using computer models doesn't automatically mean it can easily be made into identical sculpt toy. I mean, sure it was conceived at the sametime but when you start adding gimmicks to a toy there's no doubt that certain things have to be compromised along the way. Ofcourse the difficulty for a toy designer is deciding what to compromise and what not to compromise.

...and on the 1/60 DX everything was compromised.

[Vifam7]

...and on the 1/60 DX everything was compromised.

Well, we don't know about durability yet.

[regult]

or for those (like me) who are considerring only getting the 1/72s.

Same here, honestly I forgot what's the price range for the 1/100, but I would give them a chance if they were cheap(really dirt cheap), even if they looked exactly like their 1/60 brothers...

I don't think Bandai has a problem selling Macross Frontier stuff, they are doing fantastic with the 1/72 plamo, and that is not a "perfect" rendition IMO (when my "accuracy nazi mode" is activated)...it's just far more appealing than the 1/60 fugly toy. The sturdy/accurate trade-off was just too much, and it's not like young kids even know what the heck Macross F is (it was broadcasted at 1 am in Japan!), and are going to jump over them and play with them in a park...no need for the added chunkyness and resilience of a baby-item!!

The solid-archive gashapon by the way are a waste of time, the vapor trails and smoke look exactly like too much resin or plastic with paint on them, I was tempted, but it's a waste of desktop space really, Alto and co. look far better, doesn't matter they're not poseable, I am now getting impatient (Klan is in micron size, but looking mature...weird, wonder how she'd look like stading beside a 1/72 model???).

I really wanted a 1/60 toy (I am not experienced enough to build good models, and VF-25s DO require some skills or else you're wasting your time), but I just cannot give Bandai my hard earned $$$ in exchange for these fugly chunkies.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Just wanted to say

By keeping this support to a bad looking toy mad.gif

we will just get bad looking toys in the futur

Yeah and by keeping support for accurate toys with arms that break off and many other random pieces in flawed first runs, we will just keep getting broken toys in the future.

we all deserve good products considering the price they are asking for

No sh!t, why do you think people complain when something from any company breaks?

If Yamato had this license, then there would be 10 different "What's broken on yours", "what parts are missing", "missing/wrong head" threads, and cries of "Why Yamato WHY???"

Bandai makes them and they're chunky monkeys.

Who remembers a decade ago when there were NO MACROSS TOYS that weren't vintage and didn't cost a mortgage payment.

You guys are impossible to please.

True, I remember when this place didn't reak of bias, and when most of us were drooling at the various customs, and wishing someone would make Macross toys again in any form.

Graham: you can fix a broken arm, but you can't fix the fear brought on by hearing reports of breakage wink.gif Hell, sometimes you can't even fix the broken arm properly

Sadly true, especially the last part.

I think it's still uncertain whether the rvf-25 and the vf-25g will be sold with super parts.

When those were first announced, they were announced to come with the packs.

For all their flaws, they are still more "model-like" in appearance

Depends on which view and which mode you are looking at, the gullet on the 19 is an obvious give away, as are the skinny legs on the 21(which I have defended by the way), incorrect crotch placement on the 19(bam there is something familiar with the 25 aside transformation!), et al.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

yeah, but we dont even know the QC yet... so there's a chance of both ugly AND a part that's defective.

Well if it ends up defective, you'll definitely hear about it if I get one.

Ok, point, but can the fixed hands be retracted back into the arm like they should on a PT toy? if not then that's what i'm going on about. I don't feel the need to spell everything out.

That might not even be how the VF-25 transforms according to the line art and animation, the VF-0 was the same way, so the beloved Yamato wouldn't make retractable hands for this either if they had the license and if this is the case.

[David Hingtgen]

The VF-25's hands don't retract into the arms, they "stick into the shield up to the base of the fingers" with the back of the hand remaining visible.

[Mechamaniac]

The VF-25's hands don't retract into the arms, they "stick into the shield up to the base of the fingers" with the back of the hand remaining visible.

You mean like the hands of the VF-0 stuck into the backpack in fighter mode?

[Radd]

I don't understand the "either/or" mindset. Like you're either die-hard Yamato and hate Bandai, or visa-versa? That's not the case for everyone who is put-off by the look of the DX.

From the photos we've seen, the DX does not hold the same emphasis on model-like appearance as the Yamato toys do. This is an observation. A fact. This is not an opinion. That is going to be off-putting to people who place a lot of importance on that. Some of us can be more forgiving, assuming the toys live up to other standards we hold important, such as construction and durability. Just like some of us can forgive the more fragile Yamato toys, and their various QC issues if they live up to other standards, and the problems aren't too serious (some of us have never experienced firsthand the horror stories of broken connection tabs, arms breaking off, or even a cracked VF-11 hip, and have only had to deal with one or two instances of messy glue application, or loose joints). Some of us have stopped buying Yamatos, or have stopped buying certain lines due to various problems that made them undesireable to us.

There's nothing wrong with being discriminating about where you spend your money. Chiding people for having honest criticism of a toy, rather than gleefully throwing their money at everything to come down the pipe, serves no purpose. Neither does trying to tell people who are alright with the look of the DX photos that they shouldn't buy them. The "don't support ugly toys" argument assumes everyone else places as much importance on collector's item looks, when some really would prefer a sturdier toy.

People need to realize that everyone has different ideas of what is important to them, and so not everyone is going to want the same thing. Sure, if we could get a single Valkyrie that was incredibly accurate and model-like in appearance, while at the same time amazingly sturdy and well put together, then there'd be far fewer complaints. On the other hand, if the DX line turns out to be as fraught with QC problems, floppy joints, and poor construction as the worst Yamato nightmare scenarios then all but those most determined to enjoy whatever Valk toy comes out will be pretty upset.

[adrianop]

I don't understand the "either/or" mindset. Like you're either die-hard Yamato and hate Bandai, or visa-versa? That's not the case for everyone who is put-off by the look of the DX.

From the photos we've seen, the DX does not hold the same emphasis on model-like appearance as the Yamato toys do. This is an observation. A fact. This is not an opinion. That is going to be off-putting to people who place a lot of importance on that. Some of us can be more forgiving, assuming the toys live up to other standards we hold important, such as construction and durability. Just like some of us can forgive the more fragile Yamato toys, and their various QC issues if they live up to other standards, and the problems aren't too serious (some of us have never experienced firsthand the horror stories of broken connection tabs, arms breaking off, or even a cracked VF-11 hip, and have only had to deal with one or two instances of messy glue application, or loose joints). Some of us have stopped buying Yamatos, or have stopped buying certain lines due to various problems that made them undesireable to us.

There's nothing wrong with being discriminating about where you spend your money. Chiding people for having honest criticism of a toy, rather than gleefully throwing their money at everything to come down the pipe, serves no purpose. Neither does trying to tell people who are alright with the look of the DX photos that they shouldn't buy them. The "don't support ugly toys" argument assumes everyone else places as much importance on collector's item looks, when some really would prefer a sturdier toy.

People need to realize that everyone has different ideas of what is important to them, and so not everyone is going to want the same thing. Sure, if we could get a single Valkyrie that was incredibly accurate and model-like in appearance, while at the same time amazingly sturdy and well put together, then there'd be far fewer complaints. On the other hand, if the DX line turns out to be as fraught with QC problems, floppy joints, and poor construction as the worst Yamato nightmare scenarios then all but those most determined to enjoy whatever Valk toy comes out will be pretty upset.

Quoted for the truth.

[Shaggydog]

It may be that Bandai doesn't go for a model-like appearance because they actually sell a model kit.

.. which I guess brings up a question I honestly have for the folks who want it more model-like. Why don't you just build the model kits, when there are good ones (as there obviously are in this case)? Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy. If you don't care about 'play value', and 'accurate' appearance is your No. 1 priority, it seems like building model kits would be the way to go. Modern kits (like MGs) really aren't hard to build at all.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Shaggydog

[Ghostkiller]

It may be that Bandai doesn't go for a model-like appearance because they actually sell a model kit.

.. which I guess brings up a question I honestly have for the folks who want it more model-like. Why don't you just build the model kits, when there are good ones (as there obviously are in this case)? Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy. If you don't care about 'play value', and 'accurate' appearance is your No. 1 priority, it seems like building model kits would be the way to go. Modern kits (like MGs) really aren't hard to build at all.

Just get me a 1/60 vf-25 model that can stand with my 1/60 yamato toy model look

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy.

Agreed!

[David Hingtgen]

You mean like the hands of the VF-0 stuck into the backpack in fighter mode?

Yup. Seems to be the new style for Kawamori--if anything it helps a lot in making realistic 3D toys/models of his latest designs, as you don't have to worry about retractable hands. (personally, I think that's why he does it now)

[ruskiiVFaussie]

f'n hell, i can live with Yamato's hit an miss afairs with QC, 95% of all my Yamato purchases are perfect.

YF-19 with the crooked gunpod, and landing gear was about the only dissapointment.

I think if the v.2 VF-1's didn't have any QC issues we wouldn't be so bitchy bringing yamato into the argument.

They burned themselves, silly silly Yamato. And they were going so well! YF-19 revised, Nora, YF-21... dammit!~

Edited October 15, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Dobber]

It may be that Bandai doesn't go for a model-like appearance because they actually sell a model kit.

.. which I guess brings up a question I honestly have for the folks who want it more model-like. Why don't you just build the model kits, when there are good ones (as there obviously are in this case)? Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy. If you don't care about 'play value', and 'accurate' appearance is your No. 1 priority, it seems like building model kits would be the way to go. Modern kits (like MGs) really aren't hard to build at all.

I've heard people say that before, I am fortunate enough to have gotten an Alto VF-25 and have an Ozma on pre-order, I consider myself a pretty descent modeler to boot......BUT.....It is still nice to get a great lookig toy that doesn't require the Hours and Hours of time patiences and money for supplies that is required to make a nice looking model.

Chris

[jenius]

This reminds me a lot of the bickering that went on when CMs confirmed that their Legioss toy was actually going to look only remotely like the Legioss from the anime. This VF-25 looks a WHOLE lot closer to the VF-25 in the show than CMs ever managed. Even with CMs giant leaping bounds of liberties taken plenty of people still love it because it's super durable and fun to handle.

[EXO]

I should just sell sledge hammers on this website then.

[mjy208]

how much?