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Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!


Valkyrie Driver

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4 hours ago, Bolt said:

It's carrying some interesting looking warheads too..

They look pretty conventional to me, TBH?

Just, as an artifact of the transformation, they appear to be upside-down in that shot with the engine nozzle end pointing up.

 

2 hours ago, wmkjr said:

It'll be like Gundam fin funnels since it's a Siren and it'll lure everyone to their demise with it's song and control the wind.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Macross: Eternal Love Song was the first title to give the VF-4 a name - Siren, as it turns out - and (computer-controlled) funnels were among its available weapons.  It also had a beam gunpod strongly reminiscent of the Zeta Gundam's beam rifle.  

Macross II: Lovers Again's VF-2SS Valkyrie II w/ Super Armed Pack had (computer-controlled) bits.

It'll be interesting if this new Valkyrie is actually named Siren, since Siren was the original name of the VF-4 and remains an in-universe nickname for it.

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Posted (edited)

I thought i read somewhere there is an in universe rationale. But , mostly , it's fan service shenanigans.

There's actually several variants of these.

Edited by Bolt
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38 minutes ago, aurance said:

So this NUNS VF-31:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10615910
 

Does it exist in fiction somewhere or is it created purely for the anime girl fanservice nonsense?

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any mention of a VF-31D in any official setting materials.

The only VF-31 variants mentioned in the official setting materials I've seen are the mass production A and B variants, the six custom Siegfried types seen in the Macross Delta TV series (C, E, F, J, J改, S), and now the VF-31AX Kairos Plus type from the second movie.

Of those, all but the VF-31B have appeared in animation.  The VF-31B is mentioned in connection with the VF-31A, but without any role described.  Given the convention that several previous VFs incl. the VF-19 and VF-25 established, it's probably the first model conversion training variant.

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3 hours ago, aurance said:

So this NUNS VF-31:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/10615910
 

Does it exist in fiction somewhere or is it created purely for the anime girl fanservice nonsense?

31D doesn't exist.

The VFG's are supposedly heavily customized EX-gears (I think?) which are used for racing, but that's the rationale from Aoshima, not sure if it's backed up in any way on the Macross side of things.

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So, we know that we are getting the upgraded VF-31AX, which may or may not be an upgrade from the Siegfried specification for the design. We are getting a new enemy valk/variable drone AND we are getting a YF-29. Curious as to what changes/specifications we can look for on a production VF-29A/B/F/J/E/S?  I wonder if they will reduce the specs slightly to make it more economical. Does it really need the fold wave system? There are no Varja to fight.

is the VF-29 the new earth main variable fighter? We saw the limited production New UN Spacy YF-29B Percival in Macross 30 video game, so they have the specs…..

just speculating…

Twich

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13 hours ago, twich said:

Curious as to what changes/specifications we can look for on a production VF-29A/B/F/J/E/S?

Eh... I doubt we will ever see a true, even limited, production version of the YF-29.

It's basically the Macross franchise's first Gundam in the UC sense of the word.

The YF-29 is a super-prototype with capabilities far beyond what mass-production Valkyries have and a price tag to match.  Its incredible performance means that it's nearly invincible on the battlefield but the staggeringly huge cost of building and maintaining one means there's an unofficial "one per warzone" limit.

 

13 hours ago, twich said:

 I wonder if they will reduce the specs slightly to make it more economical. Does it really need the fold wave system? There are no Varja to fight.

The military spec YF-29B Perceval from Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy was said to have improved specs compared to the original YF-29[A] Durandal.  How?  They don't say.

What we do know is that its construction was only possible because the planet Uroboros is a former Protoculture world (poss. an arsenal world like Varauta IV was) and the rogue New UN Spacy VF-X Special Forces unit "Havamal" was able to leverage its influence there with the government and local crime syndicate to obtain the necessary materials to build a small number of YF-29B's for its top aces.

 

13 hours ago, twich said:

is the VF-29 the new earth main variable fighter? We saw the limited production New UN Spacy YF-29B Percival in Macross 30 video game, so they have the specs…..

As far as we know, Earth's 5th Generation main variable fighter is the VF-24... the production version of the YF-24 Evolution prototype.

The 5th Generation VFs we've seen in Macross Frontier and later titles - the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, etc. - are all derived from the partial/incomplete/redacted blueprints for the YF-24 Evolution that the Earth/Central New UN Forces approved to be shared with the emigrant governments due to the danger of hostile encounters with the Vajra.  It has been generally implied that the VF-24 is the highest spec production 5th Generation VF by a significant margin.  The YF-29 in particular is said to have been developed in secret to exceed the YF-24 Evolution's performance.  That's a hell of an implication for the VF-24's abilities if the YF-29 is how far you have to go in an effort to one-up it.

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As far as we know, Earth's 5th Generation main variable fighter is the VF-24... the production version of the YF-24 Evolution prototype.

The 5th Generation VFs we've seen in Macross Frontier and later titles - the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, etc. - are all derived from the partial/incomplete/redacted blueprints for the YF-24 Evolution that the Earth/Central New UN Forces approved to be shared with the emigrant governments due to the danger of hostile encounters with the Vajra.  It has been generally implied that the VF-24 is the highest spec production 5th Generation VF by a significant margin.  The YF-29 in particular is said to have been developed in secret to exceed the YF-24 Evolution's performance.  That's a hell of an implication for the VF-24's abilities if the YF-29 is how far you have to go in an effort to one-up it.

What’s the source for this?

Edited by aurance
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5 minutes ago, aurance said:

What’s the source for this?

Which part?

The bit about Earth's 5th Generation main variable fighter being the VF-24 is indirectly stated in numerous publications including Macross Chronicle, all of which indicate that Shinsei's YF-24 Evolution met or exceeded the Earth/Central New UN Forces' criteria for their next-generation fighter program and it was formally approved for adoption by the military.  (Since they stop the discussion with the acceptance of the YF-24 Evolution for mass production, they never quite get to say "VF-24" except in Master File.)

That essentially all 5th Generation VFs are based on the YF-24 Evolution is something that is also in a LOT of sources including Macross Chronicle.  The same line is taken by all of 'em, that the New UN Government and New UN Forces on Earth opted to circulate an incomplete or redacted version of the YF-24 Evolution specs that withheld some key technologies to ensure the primacy of the Earth/Central forces so that emigrant governments could use it as a basis for developing their own weapons to combat the Vajra.

That the YF-29 was developed in secret to exceed the performance of the YF-24 Evolution comes from a GA Graphic web interview with Shoji Kawamori that was done shortly before the theatrical release of Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye in February 2011.  Other contemporary materials established the "familial relationship" between the YF-29 and YF-24 Evolution as it being a Frontier fleet parallel development with the YF-25 (incl. shared hardware) while the YF-27/VF-27 was also a parallel development by Macross Galaxy.  

 

3 minutes ago, Bolt said:

There a a few sources. The most viewed is Macross Frontier. And Macross 30. 

Yeah, Macross 30 itself mentions the YF-30 is based on the YF-24 Evolution, that it uses certain parts originally developed for the YF-25 (incl. the airframe control AI), and that its Fold Dimensional Resonance system and engines are based on the YF-29's.

Macross Delta's own publications, esp. Great Mechanics G, establish the VF-31 as an economized, mass production-ready 5th Generation main VF developed from the YF-30.

The only one that doesn't have a clear direct connection to the YF-24 Evolution in its airframe design so far is the Sv-262 Draken III.  However, it still includes the Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines and inertia store converter that were developed for the YF-24 Evolution in its design so there is still a tangible connection.

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Sorry, should have been more clear. I’m definitely aware of the lineage and production history; I was just referring to the part where the -24 has super specs compared to its siblings.

But since -29 specs are known, and Kawamori is interviewed as saying the -29 was an attempt to exceed -24 specs, that would be enough.

Edited by aurance
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5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Other [setting materials] established the "familial relationship" between the YF-29 and YF-24 Evolution as it being a Frontier fleet parallel development with the YF-25 (incl. shared hardware) while the YF-27/VF-27 was also a parallel development by Macross Galaxy.  

It's certainly convenient (for tech-head viewers) that the parallel lineages have non-conflicting and similar model numbers. I wonder how Earth and allied emigrant nations coordinate that? Do potential derivatives proactively get assigned numbers, or does Earth wait for each ally to register its intentions? The TV shows focus on only a couple of prominent, wealthy fleets, but there are oodles of emigrant planets and fleets ("Frontier" is #55) -- is a proliferation possible, with VF-25 through VF-45? FWIW, a subordinate numbering system like VF-24.1 through VF-24.21 would address that possibility; conversely, if Kawamori et al. wanted to confuse us, they could give each ally its own sequence, as with the Mitsubishi F-2 (for Japan) being a derivative of the General Dynamics F-16 (for the U.S.).

Earth: We've adopted our Fifth Gen mainline fighter, and we're calling it the VF-24. Here are the redacted plans, folks.

Emigrant fleet 1: We can do something interesting with this.

Earth: First off the block! Yours shall be the VF-25.

Emigrant fleet 3: Our engineers are chomping at the bit. They've proposed all sorts of fascinatingly unethical mods.

Earth: And yours shall be the VF-27. --Wait, what?

Edited by Lexomatic
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6 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

Earth: We've adopted our Fifth Gen mainline fighter, and we're calling it the VF-24. Here are the redacted plans, folks.

Emigrant fleet 1: We can do something interesting with this.

Earth: First off the block! Yours shall be the VF-25.

Emigrant fleet 3: Our engineers are chomping at the bit. They've proposed all sorts of fascinatingly unethical mods.

Earth: And yours shall be the VF-27. --Wait, what?

It does seem to be the way it works.  It would imply there's a VF-26 out there with some other fleet.  Also, considering that what we've only seen up to VF-31 I'm wondering if only a couple of fleets are actively working on developing their own Valkyries.  Either that, or they aren't registering them to get official "VF" designations.

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8 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

It's certainly convenient (for tech-head viewers) that the parallel lineages have non-conflicting and similar model numbers. I wonder how Earth and allied emigrant nations coordinate that? Do potential derivatives proactively get assigned numbers, or does Earth wait for each ally to register its intentions?

As far as we know, from what's been discussed about the development of the VF-25, VF-27, and YF-30, the New UN Government has a similar technology-sharing policy to what the Earth UN Government had before the First Space War.  They aren't discussed in detail, but it's acknowledged in the case of the VF-27 and YF-30 that there are laws mandating when and how a New UN Government member state has to disclose the existence of a new development program and that when it reaches completion/manufacturing readiness it must disclose the full specs to the relevant authorities in the New UN Government and New UN Forces regulatory infrastructure.

The model numbers are assigned by some bureaucratic process during that initial disclosure, if requested/necessary.

It's also been acknowledged, again by the VF-27 and YF-30, that there are ways to game that system.  For instance, the Macross Galaxy fleet did register their YF-27 program with the relevant authorities and took pains to present a false impression of the project's potential via a series of dummy prototypes.  They completed the VF-27 in secret but (illegally) did not register it and disclose its specifications to the New UN Government as the law requires so the New UN Forces consider the completed VF-27 to still be "YF-27".  The SMS-developed YF-30 Chronos gamed the system legally by classifying itself as a prototype under development instead of the experimental technology demonstrator it actually was... enabling the Uroboros branch of SMS to avoid disclosing its specs and the existence of the Fold Dimensional Resonance system for as long as possible.

Even corporate projects not developed for a specific government, like the SV-262 Draken III, seemingly have to disclose their existence and specs given that once the ECM wasn't being used to obfuscate their identity the Xaos staff on Ragna were able to identify the aircraft almost immediately and pull specs for it.

 

8 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

The TV shows focus on only a couple of prominent, wealthy fleets, but there are oodles of emigrant planets and fleets ("Frontier" is #55) -- is a proliferation possible, with VF-25 through VF-45? FWIW, a subordinate numbering system like VF-24.1 through VF-24.21 would address that possibility; conversely, if Kawamori et al. wanted to confuse us, they could give each ally its own sequence, as with the Mitsubishi F-2 (for Japan) being a derivative of the General Dynamics F-16 (for the U.S.).

So... in theory, it's possible.  But developing something as complex as a variable fighter is EXPENSIVE and not many fleets or emigrant planets have that kind of capital to burn.  Of the ones that do, it seems few are willing to make such a substantial investment when it's easier and cheaper to just buy a license to locally build whatever Earth's New Hotness is like the VF-11, VF-14, or VF-171.  That's why we end up with the addition of designators for locally-produced variants and variant-derivatives from Frontier onwards like the Macross Frontier fleet's version of the VF-19E (VF-19EF) or Galaxy's custom VF-22H (VF-22HG).

That, as of 2067, we're only up to 31 shows that very few entities in the New UN Government were willing or able to invest the kind of capital it takes to develop their own 5th Gen main VF.  Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy did it on their own.  The twenty or so worlds of the Brisingr cluster had to band together to jointly fund it to do theirs, with the main intention of trying to scare up a boost to their economy with export sales.

 

2 hours ago, jealous37 said:

It does seem to be the way it works.  It would imply there's a VF-26 out there with some other fleet. 

The New UN Forces haven't shown any inclination to skip "unlucky" numbers, so in the official setting there is almost certainly at least a YF-26 that never made it to production.

Variable Fighter Master File actually acknowledges a YF-26.  Its version of the VF-25 development history is a joint development project between three wealthy emigrant fleets: Macross Frontier, Macross Olympia, and Macross Galaxy.  The three fleets each developed their own prototype - Frontier's YF-25, Olympia's YF-26, and Galaxy's YF-27 - with the assistance of co-development and co-supply agreements so that each fleet was involved in the manufacture of the winning design in some way with the agreement that they'd each adopt the winning design as their next main fighter.  Olympia's YF-26 prototype dropped out of the competition and was not completed, and they followed through on the agreement to adopt the program's winning design: the VF-25.  (In a nod to the TV series, the program was "Project Triangler".)

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

As it looks. Most fleets are probably still rocking the VF-171 . As it's a pretty versatile ride. Others, that can afford it, maybe the VF-25..

Yes and no?

It takes years to phase a new fighter into service completely, so most emigrant governments are likely operating the VF-171 or a mixture of the VF-171 and whatever their choice of new fighter is.  'cept those that went all-in on Ghosts.

The Macross Frontier fleet was still a year or two from the start of mass production on the VF-25 in 2059, so even by 2067 they're probably still only partway through the process of transitioning to their new main fighter.  Macross Galaxy got a head start because of their superior manufacturing capability and the fact that they cheated to complete the VF-27 by uing stolen development data from the YF-29, but even they were only deploying the VF-27 in small numbers in 2059 with most of their forces still using older craft.

Likewise, per Kawamori, in Macross Delta the VF-31 Kairos is also still a year or two away from formal adoption by the Brisingr Alliance NUNS, meaning they likely won't even get to start phasing it in until 2069 or 2070.

Non-setting materials like Variable Fighter Master File lean heavily into the idea that the Macross Frontier fleet made out like a bandit in export sales of the VF-25, with a variety of emigrant governments (incl. Macross Olympia and Macross-7) adopting it as their next main fighter.  Official setting materials suggest at least one other operator: Sephira.

The VF-31 was developed specifically with export sales in mind to bolster the economy of the Brisingr cluster in the official descriptions of its development.

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12 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

Emigrant fleet 3: Our engineers are chomping at the bit. They've proposed all sorts of fascinatingly unethical mods.

Earth: And yours shall be the VF-27. --Wait, what?

Haha!

I can imagine the follow-up too.

"After due consideration, we've determined your fighter to be sketchy as hell. But it doesn't involve recently-uncovered lost protoculture technology, so it can't be THAT bad. Fighter approved."

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  • 2 weeks later...
Just now, deathzealot said:

Huh. We are also getting a new Draken II as well? Or is it simply a repaint of the Draken III we already have.

Yup. The movie will feature a Draken III with crimson and gold repaint.

 

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6 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. We are also getting a new Draken III as well? Or is it simply a repaint of the Draken III we already have.

Repaint.

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2 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

@Alex GS posted this in the Sv-262 Toy Section.

image.png

 

 

Definitely an evolution of the VF-4, VF-14 design lineage with some YF-30/VF-31 thrown in.  I'm just really not loving those weird neon lines.  
On top of that, it looks rather spindly in battroid mode.
I'll be interested to see what the big deal about it is.  i.e. what it does special and why it was designed that way.

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The fighter mode looks awesome. Battroid does look kinda skinny. Not the biggest fan of those beam guns(?) above the head.

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How in the flibbitygibbit does it transform? Looks kinda like VF-4 2.0 to me. Really like it though, but we don’t see GERWALK yet, might be 2 mode transformation.

Twich

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... it really is kind of frustrating how some of these magazine pieces can write so much and yet say so little of actual worth.

Especially for Delta, where details are painfully sparse as it is.

I've often praised the VF-31A Kairos as the most beautiful of the 5th Generation Valkyries.  This new thing?  It does not thrill me.  I'd have liked to see Kawamori try something different for the big finale of Macross Delta, especially in light of how short the TV series was on original designs and plot elements.  It's kind of disappointing to get a real good look at the new enemy VF and see that it looks like a rehash of the SV-51 Battroid.

Between the multi-axis thrust vectoring nozzles and conehead, both of which are basically the General Galaxy/SV Works signature, it kinda sucks all the mystery out of it too.

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16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... it really is kind of frustrating how some of these magazine pieces can write so much and yet say so little of actual worth.

Especially for Delta, where details are painfully sparse as it is.

I've often praised the VF-31A Kairos as the most beautiful of the 5th Generation Valkyries.  This new thing?  It does not thrill me.  I'd have liked to see Kawamori try something different for the big finale of Macross Delta, especially in light of how short the TV series was on original designs and plot elements.  It's kind of disappointing to get a real good look at the new enemy VF and see that it looks like a rehash of the SV-51 Battroid.

Between the multi-axis thrust vectoring nozzles and conehead, both of which are basically the General Galaxy/SV Works signature, it kinda sucks all the mystery out of it too.

I was just gonna say, hello SV-51, nice to see you

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53 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'd have liked to see Kawamori try something different for the big finale of Macross Delta, especially in light of how short the TV series was on original designs and plot elements.  It's kind of disappointing to get a real good look at the new enemy VF and see that it looks like a rehash of the SV-51 Battroid.

Counterpoint: While it may bear some superficial similarity to the SV-51 Battroid and VF-4 fighter, it presumably transforms like neither of them, given where various bits appear to end up (obviously excepting the VF-4 style legs). Between this and the SV-262, I'd argue that Delta gave us some pretty darn original designs.

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Looking at the mystery valk, there is some serious page distortion that is throwing off the proportions.  I'd like to see a cleaner/flatter scan of it.  The transformation mech will be interesting to say the least.  Those extra booster engines on the battroid wings must be slung underneath, as well as the laser turret.  It might actually be an upside down VF-4 transformation mech, but we need more imagery of the underside and video of it in action to be sure.  While it has the General Galaxy aesthetic in many ways, I am also going to bet that some Protoculture or Supervision Army tech is incorporated in there as well, especially if it is fielded by the Windemere.

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4 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

I am also going to bet that some Protoculture or Supervision Army tech is incorporated in there as well, especially if it is fielded by the Windemere.

I'm always bewildered by the way people instantly assume anything new or advanced looking must somehow belong to the Protoculture.

Like when people assumed the VF-27 was a Protoculture mecha early in Frontier despite all evidence to the contrary, or that weird theory that Mina Roshan was a Protodeviln (as little sense as that made) because she looked slightly different thanks to having dark eyes and a bindi.

This thing supposedly belongs to the new antagonist being introduced in the movie, so it's apparently not Windermere's.  

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18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like when people assumed the VF-27 was a Protoculture mecha early in Frontier despite all evidence to the contrary, or that weird theory that Mina Roshan was a Protodeviln (as little sense as that made) because she looked slightly different thanks to having dark eyes and a bindi.

This thing supposedly belongs to the new antagonist being introduced in the movie, so it's apparently not Windermere's.  

Considering how much Delta curbed from Frontier and now this new fighter I'm going to place money on General Galaxy being the big bad as they are going after the ship Roid used to take over all of humanity for all of 5 minutes. 

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Galaxy as the new threat would be an obvious guess, one I'm willing to bite on. 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm always bewildered by the way people instantly assume anything new or advanced looking must somehow belong to the Protoculture.

This one is obviously meant to stand out from the usual Valkyrie livery. More so than usual.The symbols and Tron look also makes one wonder. Perhaps it's the new ,remote operated, drone look.

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1 hour ago, Focslain said:

Considering how much Delta curbed from Frontier and now this new fighter I'm going to place money on General Galaxy being the big bad as they are going after the ship Roid used to take over all of humanity for all of 5 minutes. 

It definitely does have the General Galaxy / Macross Galaxy development group's sticky little fingerprints all over it design-wise.

 

4 minutes ago, Bolt said:

This one is obviously meant to stand out from the usual Valkyrie livery. More so than usual.The symbols and Tron look also makes one wonder. Perhaps it's the new ,remote operated, drone look.

The vibe I got was "unmanned Valkyrie" for sure... it vaguely resembles a Northrop Grumman X-47B with outboard engines and a lengthened nose.

It's a pretty safe bet it's not connected to the Protoculture or Supervision Army tho, since it doesn't look like the end result of an inebriated tryst between an Elder God and an unattended houseplant or a coral reef someone decided should fly.

We've seen what happens when you upgrade a VF with Supervision Army tech in Macross 7, and this doesn't look anything like the Varauta mecha that were the result of that.

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23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's a pretty safe bet it's not connected to the Protoculture or Supervision Army tho, since it doesn't look like the end result of an inebriated tryst between an Elder God and an unattended houseplant or a coral reef someone decided should fly.

Lol . True enough. 

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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... it really is kind of frustrating how some of these magazine pieces can write so much and yet say so little of actual worth.

Especially for Delta, where details are painfully sparse as it is.

I've often praised the VF-31A Kairos as the most beautiful of the 5th Generation Valkyries.  This new thing?  It does not thrill me.  I'd have liked to see Kawamori try something different for the big finale of Macross Delta, especially in light of how short the TV series was on original designs and plot elements.  It's kind of disappointing to get a real good look at the new enemy VF and see that it looks like a rehash of the SV-51 Battroid.

Between the multi-axis thrust vectoring nozzles and conehead, both of which are basically the General Galaxy/SV Works signature, it kinda sucks all the mystery out of it too.

Yeah; it seems that they're just filling in with a bunch of wordy fluff for the thinness of the missing details.

As for Kawamori-san; I wonder if he's getting burned-out on trying to come up with new designs? Given the aforementioned lack of original stuff in Delta, it seems at least possible to me. I know when designing my second variable fighter kitbash, I was struggling to not go over the same old ground and pretty much failed at that!

(^not a mechanical engineer, nor plays one on TV!)

  

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm always bewildered by the way people instantly assume anything new or advanced looking must somehow belong to the Protoculture.

Like when people assumed the VF-27 was a Protoculture mecha early in Frontier despite all evidence to the contrary, or that weird theory that Mina Roshan was a Protodeviln (as little sense as that made) because she looked slightly different thanks to having dark eyes and a bindi.

This thing supposedly belongs to the new antagonist being introduced in the movie, so it's apparently not Windermere's.  


That leads me to yet another question: (admittedly a departure from the main convo): I wonder about the possibility of yet another advanced civilization out there, perhaps a rival of the Protoculture? While not encountered in Macross as of yet, that at some point, a colony fleet ends up figuring their way past a barrier erected by the Protoculture, only to open up a new can of worms?

I know that sounds in a way like what happened when researchers encountered the Protodevlin on Varauta.

(maybe I need to lay off the Pastrami sandwiches before bedtime?)

Edited by pengbuzz
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