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Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!


Valkyrie Driver

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4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah; it seems that they're just filling in with a bunch of wordy fluff for the thinness of the missing details.

It's not even that... we're long used to them pointing out the obvious for the people in the back, but in this case was it necessary to point out that they have no idea how it transforms?

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As for Kawamori-san; I wonder if he's getting burned-out on trying to come up with new designs? Given the aforementioned lack of original stuff in Delta, it seems at least possible to me. I know when designing my second variable fighter kitbash, I was struggling to not go over the same old ground and pretty much failed at that!

(^not a mechanical engineer, nor plays one on TV!)

It's possible, I suppose... but I'd suspect a more plausible explanation would be that Macross Delta is already reusing a lot of art assets from Macross Frontier and the emphasis was on Walkure so there's not as much incentive to get really creative with mecha that'll be taking a backseat to the idols anyway.

It was kind of expected that we'd see the return of the Cheyenne II, Nightmare Plus, and New UN Spacy warship classes like the UragaGuantanamo, and Northampton, but reusing the Island-1 CG model felt kind of lazy since it doesn't actually match the proportions of the ship interior animated for it or of an emigrant ship of its generation.  I was less happy in the wake of learning exactly how much was borrowed or lightly reworked from AKB0048.  The designs of the Aether and Hemera are a lightly reworked version of the Katyusha from that series, and the multidrone plates and other Walkure-specific gear seem to have been based on AKB0048's gear.  (Oddly, they didn't copy the one thing that would've made the most sense to have... the transformable flying live stage.

 

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

That leads me to yet another question: (admittedly a departure from the main convo): I wonder about the possibility of yet another advanced civilization out there, perhaps a rival of the Protoculture? While not encountered in Macross as of yet, that at some point, a colony fleet ends up figuring their way past a barrier erected by the Protoculture, only to open up a new can of worms?

I know that sounds in a way like what happened when researchers encountered the Protodevlin on Varauta.

(maybe I need to lay off the Pastrami sandwiches before bedtime?)

Pastrami before bedtime does sound like a gastrointestinal problem in the making... though not so much as my own recently acquired habit of late night curry.

We've kind of already seen that particular plot idea in Macross II: Lovers Again... albeit with what was strongly implied to be the descendants of a group of Protoculture refugees.  

In the main Macross timeline, it seems like such a thing would be pretty unlikely though.  The surviving sub-Protoculture species we've seen have all been ones created near the end of the Protoculture's Stellar Republic, or after its fall while they were clinging to what remained of their power on the fringes of the galaxy.  Humanity got an unexpected leg up due to an intact Supervision Army warship literally falling out of the sky for them to reverse-engineer.  You'd think if there were a more advanced power out there they'd have attracted the unwanted attentions of the Zentradi and probably been wiped out in the interim the way humanity nearly was.

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16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Pastrami before bedtime does sound like a gastrointestinal problem in the making... though not so much as my own recently acquired habit of late night curry.

We've kind of already seen that particular plot idea in Macross II: Lovers Again... albeit with what was strongly implied to be the descendants of a group of Protoculture refugees. 

  Good point; I just felt the Maruk (Mardook?) were as you just said and not a separate civilization altogether.

 

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In the main Macross timeline, it seems like such a thing would be pretty unlikely though.  The surviving sub-Protoculture species we've seen have all been ones created near the end of the Protoculture's Stellar Republic, or after its fall while they were clinging to what remained of their power on the fringes of the galaxy.  Humanity got an unexpected leg up due to an intact Supervision Army warship literally falling out of the sky for them to reverse-engineer.  You'd think if there were a more advanced power out there they'd have attracted the unwanted attentions of the Zentradi and probably been wiped out in the interim the way humanity nearly was.

I was thinking equally advanced in comparison to the Protoculture. Since the galaxy is quite large, I would suspect it to be possible to have two such competing powers and not run into one another often unless desired.

Anyways, nothing from "Word of God" ever denoted this, so I'm just out in the brambles looking probably for more than what's actually there.

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5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As for Kawamori-san; I wonder if he's getting burned-out on trying to come up with new designs? Given the aforementioned lack of original stuff in Delta, it seems at least possible to me. I know when designing my second variable fighter kitbash, I was struggling to not go over the same old ground and pretty much failed at that!

That's a possibility.  It might also be that he's busy with other commitments, and the tight deadlines have stretched his creativity too far.

One of my hobbies is designing transforming jets.  I've found that whenever I try to "break the mould" and do something new, it takes months: 1/2 a year or more.  For example the engine thrusters/feet on the FaMH-07 Orca here: https://www.deviantart.com/studiootaking/art/CFs-Generation-3a-Master-File-Chronicle-767383491

However, once I have the transformation worked out and the 'design language' established, making variants is comparatively quick (1–2 months for the FaMH-08/CF-130 Black Fish).  That said, inspiration does hit like lightning, and some things that really break into new territory are hammered out in around a month (the FaMH-09 Skookumchuck... it only took that long because I was lazy getting around to finalizing the drawings!)

 

If memory serves, this happened with Kawamori-san when he was designing the VF-19: it took him many months (6 or 8 or more?) to finalize the YF-19, but in the meantime he completed the VF-11 in 1–2 months.  I'm probably simplifying circumstances too much, but that is the fundamental reason why we have scores upon scores of variants, multiple *new* Valkyries that borrow design elements from their predecessors, and relatively few that truly break the mould and do something completely original.

As for this latest *new* design, it could be Kawamori-san's 2020 revision of the VF-X-4 (from SDFM), refined with about 40 years of Valkyrie design experience and the Frontier/Delta visual language tacked on.

 

As for your kitbashing: it's OK to revisit the same old ground.  The trick is to disguise it with new shapes (silhouettes as Kawamori-san dubs it) and greebles.  Like how the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-29 are all the same, but have been changed enough that they're visually distinct.

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2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I was thinking equally advanced in comparison to the Protoculture. Since the galaxy is quite large, I would suspect it to be possible to have two such competing powers and not run into one another often unless desired.

The Protoculture controlled most of the galaxy at the peak of their power... so it's unlikely that there was another power out there equivalent to them that went undiscovered through their entire civilization and the 500,000 years that followed.

If a civilization like that did exist, they would've either been caught up in the Protoculture's civil war and destroyed, caught up in the war against the Protodeviln and destroyed, or caught up in the ongoing conflict between the Supervision Army and Zentradi and destroyed.

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15 hours ago, sketchley said:

That's a possibility.  It might also be that he's busy with other commitments, and the tight deadlines have stretched his creativity too far.

One of my hobbies is designing transforming jets.  I've found that whenever I try to "break the mould" and do something new, it takes months: 1/2 a year or more.  For example the engine thrusters/feet on the FaMH-07 Orca here: https://www.deviantart.com/studiootaking/art/CFs-Generation-3a-Master-File-Chronicle-767383491

However, once I have the transformation worked out and the 'design language' established, making variants is comparatively quick (1–2 months for the FaMH-08/CF-130 Black Fish).  That said, inspiration does hit like lightning, and some things that really break into new territory are hammered out in around a month (the FaMH-09 Skookumchuck... it only took that long because I was lazy getting around to finalizing the drawings!)

 

If memory serves, this happened with Kawamori-san when he was designing the VF-19: it took him many months (6 or 8 or more?) to finalize the YF-19, but in the meantime he completed the VF-11 in 1–2 months.  I'm probably simplifying circumstances too much, but that is the fundamental reason why we have scores upon scores of variants, multiple *new* Valkyries that borrow design elements from their predecessors, and relatively few that truly break the mould and do something completely original.

As for this latest *new* design, it could be Kawamori-san's 2020 revision of the VF-X-4 (from SDFM), refined with about 40 years of Valkyrie design experience and the Frontier/Delta visual language tacked on.

 

As for your kitbashing: it's OK to revisit the same old ground.  The trick is to disguise it with new shapes (silhouettes as Kawamori-san dubs it) and greebles.  Like how the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-29 are all the same, but have been changed enough that they're visually distinct.

Some good points; I know mine bears some resemblance to the VF-19 with elements of the VF-17:

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/LlAvP

On that note: I really should do a sheet with data on mine; thanks for the inspiration!

 

Edited by pengbuzz
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13 hours ago, sketchley said:

That's a possibility.  It might also be that he's busy with other commitments, and the tight deadlines have stretched his creativity too far.

One of my hobbies is designing transforming jets.  I've found that whenever I try to "break the mould" and do something new, it takes months: 1/2 a year or more.  For example the engine thrusters/feet on the FaMH-07 Orca here: https://www.deviantart.com/studiootaking/art/CFs-Generation-3a-Master-File-Chronicle-767383491

However, once I have the transformation worked out and the 'design language' established, making variants is comparatively quick (1–2 months for the FaMH-08/CF-130 Black Fish).  That said, inspiration does hit like lightning, and some things that really break into new territory are hammered out in around a month (the FaMH-09 Skookumchuck... it only took that long because I was lazy getting around to finalizing the drawings!)

 

If memory serves, this happened with Kawamori-san when he was designing the VF-19: it took him many months (6 or 8 or more?) to finalize the YF-19, but in the meantime he completed the VF-11 in 1–2 months.  I'm probably simplifying circumstances too much, but that is the fundamental reason why we have scores upon scores of variants, multiple *new* Valkyries that borrow design elements from their predecessors, and relatively few that truly break the mould and do something completely original.

As for this latest *new* design, it could be Kawamori-san's 2020 revision of the VF-X-4 (from SDFM), refined with about 40 years of Valkyrie design experience and the Frontier/Delta visual language tacked on.

 

As for your kitbashing: it's OK to revisit the same old ground.  The trick is to disguise it with new shapes (silhouettes as Kawamori-san dubs it) and greebles.  Like how the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-29 are all the same, but have been changed enough that they're visually distinct.

Awesome work Aaron !

10 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

So how exactly do the various Vajra forms propel themselves when they're in space?

glitter dust !

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13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Protoculture controlled most of the galaxy at the peak of their power... so it's unlikely that there was another power out there equivalent to them that went undiscovered through their entire civilization and the 500,000 years that followed.

If a civilization like that did exist, they would've either been caught up in the Protoculture's civil war and destroyed, caught up in the war against the Protodeviln and destroyed, or caught up in the ongoing conflict between the Supervision Army and Zentradi and destroyed.

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware of how much of the galaxy they had controlled prior to their fall. Also makes me wonder if they had any installations near the center of the galaxy near the enormous black hole at the center of it.

Well...at least that leaves the rest of the universe, eh? It would be interesting to take a jump of about a millennia and see what Earth does insofar as their own "empire".

Edited by pengbuzz
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8 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

So how exactly do the various Vajra forms propel themselves when they're in space?

If memory serves, the ones with tails are essentially "swimming".  They do this by emitting something like a gravity field, and deflecting themselves off of that.  Presumably the larger ones just emit a gravity field—implying that they have organs reminiscent of "engines" akin to the gravity drive in the USS Sulaco from Aliens.

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9 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

So how exactly do the various Vajra forms propel themselves when they're in space?

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

If memory serves, the ones with tails are essentially "swimming".  They do this by emitting something like a gravity field, and deflecting themselves off of that.  Presumably the larger ones just emit a gravity field—implying that they have organs reminiscent of "engines" akin to the gravity drive in the USS Sulaco from Aliens.

Yup... the Vajra use a biological/biotechnological form of gravity control called a "Bio-Gravitational Field Propeller" in their tails for propulsion.  Macross Chronicle theorizes that it's powered by fold quartz (dimensional energy conversion).

 

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware of how much of the galaxy they had controlled prior to their fall. Also makes me wonder if they had any installations near the center of the galaxy near the enormous black hole at the center of it.

Well...at least that leaves the rest of the universe, eh? It would be interesting to take a jump of about a millennia and see what Earth does insofar as their own "empire".

Perhaps due to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love? PS1 game's mail-in gift "Minmay's Last Message", it's a popular fan theory that the Protoculture's home world was somewhere near the galactic core.  It's also often assumed that the Protoculture originated near the galactic core based on the way they're described as fleeting towards the edge of the galaxy once the devastation from the war against the Protodeviln caused them to lose control over the Zentradi fleets, and the fact that the surviving sub-Protoculture that they created and the intact ruins of their final settlements are all located near the edge of the galaxy (e.g. Earth, Zola, the Brisingr globular cluster, Uroboros).

Several planets with Protoculture relics depicted in previous Macross titles were also near the galactic center... most notably Lux, the planet the Macross-5 fleet discovered and started to settle on before Gigile's self-destruction destroyed it, and the Vajra planet the Macross Frontier fleet settled on which had Birdhuman relics on its surface.  (Given that Varauta is not depicted as being very far from Lux, it is also likely in the general vicinity of the galactic core.)

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22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yup... the Vajra use a biological/biotechnological form of gravity control called a "Bio-Gravitational Field Propeller" in their tails for propulsion.  Macross Chronicle theorizes that it's powered by fold quartz (dimensional energy conversion).

 

Perhaps due to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love? PS1 game's mail-in gift "Minmay's Last Message", it's a popular fan theory that the Protoculture's home world was somewhere near the galactic core.  It's also often assumed that the Protoculture originated near the galactic core based on the way they're described as fleeting towards the edge of the galaxy once the devastation from the war against the Protodeviln caused them to lose control over the Zentradi fleets, and the fact that the surviving sub-Protoculture that they created and the intact ruins of their final settlements are all located near the edge of the galaxy (e.g. Earth, Zola, the Brisingr globular cluster, Uroboros).

Several planets with Protoculture relics depicted in previous Macross titles were also near the galactic center... most notably Lux, the planet the Macross-5 fleet discovered and started to settle on before Gigile's self-destruction destroyed it, and the Vajra planet the Macross Frontier fleet settled on which had Birdhuman relics on its surface.  (Given that Varauta is not depicted as being very far from Lux, it is also likely in the general vicinity of the galactic core.)

Huh...I always thought Minmay's last message was:

"Help me! Misa is trying to pound me into the deckplates with Hikaru's photo alb--WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!"

Edited by pengbuzz
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18 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Huh...I always thought Minmay's last message was:

"Help me! Misa is trying to pound me into the deckplates with Hikaru's photo alb--WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!WHAM!!"

On the list of awkward social situations, being stuck on an smallish town flying through space until question-marks with your husband and your husband's ex must be pretty close to the top.  Some of those emigrant ships were out there for 10, 20, 30 years...

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4 hours ago, Bolt said:

That's interesting that it's actually not the galactic black hole. But another anomaly that was emitting some strange melody..

If memory serves, the "last message" was created before the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy was discovered/confirmed.

I think there was also some "lost in translation" going on, as the word I used (dark) can also be translated as black, but it's written in totally different words than what the Japanese use for "black hole".

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26 minutes ago, sketchley said:

If memory serves, the "last message" was created before the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy was discovered/confirmed.

The existence of the supermassive black hole in the center of the Milky Way was proposed in 1971, and the first experimental evidence corroborating the hypothesis emerged in 1974 with the discovery of the Sagittarius A* radio source.  It was effectively narrowed down to the only plausible hypothesis based on our present understanding of physics in the mid-90's (1994-1995) when studies of Messier 87 effectively ruled out the idea that such regions could be home to swarms of stellar mass black holes in close proximity.

I'm not sure how much traction the idea had in the public consciousness prior to the late 90's though... esp. given popular sci-fi in the 80's and 90's made something of a bad habit out of visiting the cores of galaxies like Star Trek V: the Final Frontier and Star Wars I: the Phantom Menace.

EDIT: Star Wars - especially the Expanded Universe - is an especially bad repeat offender putting dozens and dozens of planets in or very near the center of its galaxy.  Not trivial ones either, but major centers of galactic power like Coruscant, Empress Teta, Alderaan, Corellia, and Hosnian.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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49E03F10-559D-4D31-A023-86465A951516.jpeg

 

So... this has a few interesting details to offer.

Apparently the Kairos Plus will still have a fold wave system.  Apparently that ugly splodge that replaced the lens we're used to is an enlargement of the system for some reason?

As much as I like them going back to the much better-looking delta wing from the VF-31A I'm not sure I like the other changes to the design.

 

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19 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

Hey @Seto Kaiba. Is there any info on the text that tells about what the thermometer looking multi-purpose container unit do? Thanks.

It's a rectal thermometer.  Xaos is getting into the challenging field of Zentradi healthcare.

*snerk*

Unfortunately, the sheet is vague on that note... it mentions the ordnance container has been exchanged for a type that contains armaments and sensors (impl. "instead of the multi-drone recharger equipped previously").

It looks rather odd seen from the other side (img. courtesy of Tamashii's website):

area05_img01_2.png

It looks like the new gunpod attaches to the underside of the ordnance container and can be deployed beam turret style by unfolding the ordnance container into a turret mount.

item_0000013691_9fma9yAb_09.jpg

The new beam gunpod is DEFINITELY based on the one previously used by the Sv-262 Draken III.

 

item_0000013691_9fma9yAb_12.jpg

Another look at the side of the ordnance container with the gunpod deployed.

item_0000013691_9fma9yAb_06.jpg

One interesting detail is that the gun barrel on the ordnance container looks like it's hinged to rotate up or down... making it likely it is a beam cannon of some description.

 

On checking Tamashii's website, it seems the movie's date has been given as 2068... so this movie is set only a few months to a year from the end of Macross Delta.  

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So, all in all, it looks like armaments-wise the VF-31AX Kairos Plus isn't changing much from the base VF-31A Kairos or VF-31 Custom Siegfried.

  • The Mauler ROV-127E 12.7mm beam machine gun appears to be effectively unaltered from the base design.
  • The Ramington LM-27s 27mm railguns on the forearms appear to have been exchanged for a larger model.
  • The Bifors CIMM-3B micro-missile launcher systems in the legs seem to be unaltered.
  • The weapons bay in the back of the legs also appears to be unmodified.
  • The Howard LU-18A beam gunpod has apparently been replaced by one modeled on the General Galaxy GBP-35A beam gunpod used by the Sv-262.
  • The multipurpose container has been exchanged for a type that has a gun of some type (likely a beam gun?) instead of a multidrone charger.

Unless something unusual has been done to the fold wave system or the engines, this doesn't look like much of an improvement from the base VF-31 Kairos or Siegfried.

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Rectal Thermometer. Hahaha! It's what we've been calling in the Toy section. :lol: 

 

Thank you for sharing those specs. Really appreciate it. :hi:

 

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Very interesting. These specs certainly raise a few questions..

Like why the new multi-purpose container looked like a rectal thermometer? :rolleyes:

 

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The back of the gunpod looks like the VF-31's while the front is the Sv-262's. Wonder if it is just the Sv-262's redesigned to be compatible with the VF-31. The folding bicep armor is interesting. Wonder if that is in response to the VF-31's lack of a bicep. The new container pod definitely looks like a thermometer...or home pregnancy test kit.

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3 hours ago, Bolt said:

Very interesting. These specs certainly raise a few questions..

All in all, I'm actually kind of disappointed by how few questions it actually raises...

While I absolutely 100% think the Kairos Plus is a better looking aircraft than the previous Siegfried Custom, I still can't see a clear rationale for Xaos to have either scrapped their 3-4 surviving Siegfried custom units in favor of this new model or retooled them into this new model.  Apart from the slightly heavier armament, the only thing I can really see is having a bit more fuel by retooling the wing surface to make it thicker near the root and swapping the forward-swept winglets for delta winglets.

 

4 minutes ago, azrael said:

The back of the gunpod looks like the VF-31's while the front is the Sv-262's. Wonder if it is just the Sv-262's redesigned to be compatible with the VF-31. The folding bicep armor is interesting. Wonder if that is in response to the VF-31's lack of a bicep. The new container pod definitely looks like a thermometer...or home pregnancy test kit.

I'm inclined to suspect the new bicep armor there is meant to reinforce the upper arm... Hayate lost several arms below the shoulder over the course of the TV series.

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stemming over from the discussion on the Macross Movie Absolute Live!!!!!! thread, how over the top crazy would it be to have a ship like the Macross 1/2 or maybe a full New Macross like battle frontier have Macross Quarters as the "arms"  This has been seen, in a round about way in the Macross 2 Macross Cannon with the 4 front to the Zentradi battleships as the boom cannons and arms.  The discussion on the other thread was why there was a new ship name as the home base for Delta Flight, instead of the Aether, and I had postulated that perhaps Xaos replaced the Macross 1/2 with a new ship....anyway, back to the discussion of the new VF-31AX....

Twich

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2 hours ago, twich said:

stemming over from the discussion on the Macross Movie Absolute Live!!!!!! thread, how over the top crazy would it be to have a ship like the Macross 1/2 or maybe a full New Macross like battle frontier have Macross Quarters as the "arms"

That would look awful.

Like, full on "this is a parody intended to mock the series" levels of bad.

 

2 hours ago, twich said:

This has been seen, in a round about way in the Macross 2 Macross Cannon with the 4 front to the Zentradi battleships as the boom cannons and arms. 

That's rather different.

The Macross Cannon-class from Macross II: Lovers Again didn't incorporate complete, functional Zentradi warships into its structure.  The Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class battleships used in its construction were stripped down to little more than their super dimension energy cannons and the surrounding superstructure, and the cannons themselves apparently modified in an effort to increase their firepower.  They're not able to detach from the ship and operate independently.

 

2 hours ago, twich said:

The discussion on the other thread was why there was a new ship name as the home base for Delta Flight, instead of the Aether, and I had postulated that perhaps Xaos replaced the Macross 1/2 with a new ship....anyway, back to the discussion of the new VF-31AX....

It's possible, I guess... but I would consider it pretty damn unlikely that Xaos could afford to simply retire a ship like the Macross Elysion.

In the TV series, the Macross Elysion was the flagship and de facto headquarters of the Xaos PMC division in the Brisingr globular cluster.  That status doesn't seem to have changed in the transition to the movie version, which makes it pretty unlikely that Xaos would be able to just retire the ship outright and have a replacement in service less than a year from the end of the war.  Xaos wasn't in great financial shape when the story started, and they were in truly dire financial straits with barely any operating capital by the time they had to organize a counteroffensive to retake the Brisingr globular cluster.  Never mind that they were tossing around the idea of blowing a year or more's operating capital to remove the Epsilon Foundation-provided technology (and its backdoors) from their operations.  The movie version of the story gave them two more ships of the same type in addition to their dozen or so frigates and stealth cruisers... but they also suffered far heavier losses including the complete destruction of the Macross Megasion and its two Enterprise-class carriers, one of the Macross Grasion's Enterprise-class carriers, and the Macross Elysion suffering a fair amount of damage from friendly fire as well.

With Xaos explicitly cash-strapped, having lost about 1/3 of their total strength, and with less than a year to pick up the pieces... I just do not see them having replaced the Macross Elysion with anything, let alone a newer and more advanced warship.

Whatever "Parmenides" is, I kinda suspect it's either from outside the globular cluster or some kind of emigrant ship, space station, or airbase that doesn't properly belong to them.

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