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Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!


Valkyrie Driver

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9 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Hey @Seto Kaiba. Saw this at TagHobby. Not sure if the texts are clear enough.

9D599BE5-4923-444A-8651-F4A21CC29D54.jpeg 

It's blurry, but it's enough for me to fill in the gaps left by the lighting glare in the cleaner picture.  :) 

Sadly, it doesn't say anything interesting or noteworthy.  There are a few statements of the obvious like that this aircraft's wing design is basically the same except that the larger leading edge extensions increase the wing area, and that it's different from both the Siegfried and Kairos.  It even seems to be playing dumb about the operator, as though we'd somehow missed that it was obviously being used by Delta Flight in the trailer.

It's pretty obvious in context that this is another Xaos Valkyrie Works ace custom derivative of the VF-31A Kairos.  The Brisingr Alliance doesn't have the resources to carry parallel development of multiple next-generation VFs the way the wealthy Macross Frontier fleet could, and the VF-31 itself was made to maximize cost performance above all else using mainly off-the-shelf parts and a design optimized for multipurposefulness.  

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's blurry, but it's enough for me to fill in the gaps left by the lighting glare in the cleaner picture.  :) 

Sadly, it doesn't say anything interesting or noteworthy.  There are a few statements of the obvious like that this aircraft's wing design is basically the same except that the larger leading edge extensions increase the wing area, and that it's different from both the Siegfried and Kairos.  It even seems to be playing dumb about the operator, as though we'd somehow missed that it was obviously being used by Delta Flight in the trailer.

It's pretty obvious in context that this is another Xaos Valkyrie Works ace custom derivative of the VF-31A Kairos.  The Brisingr Alliance doesn't have the resources to carry parallel development of multiple next-generation VFs the way the wealthy Macross Frontier fleet could, and the VF-31 itself was made to maximize cost performance above all else using mainly off-the-shelf parts and a design optimized for multipurposefulness.  

Based on this my guess is Delta is tearing down the Siegfried's and rebuilding them into a new custom (with new name perhaps?) That is more fit for some unknown new mission parameter in the time of the movie.

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1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

Based on this my guess is Delta is tearing down the Siegfried's and rebuilding them into a new custom (with new name perhaps?) That is more fit for some unknown new mission parameter in the time of the movie.

That was my hypothesis as well... that this'll be something broadly analogous to the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung or VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei.  An ace custom job with a different name that's nevertheless still thematically related to the original model's.  Like how "Sturmvogel" and "Schwalbe" were the names of two different Me 262 variants, or how "Caliburn" was the Latin translation of the Welsh "Caledfwich" and eventually became "Excalibur" once translated into French, while "Nothung" is thematically tied in as another Sword-in-the-Stone type magic blade from Norse mythology (as an alternate name for Gram, Sigurd's/Siegfried's sword).

Thematically, if they keep borrowing from Norse mythology the way they've done heavily starting in Macross 30 onwards, the new VF will have a name drawn from Der Ring des Nibelungen as well.  Perhaps Siegmund, Siegfried's father?  Sieglinde would feel a bit off-brand despite her being associated with shape-changing since her entire story arc was about vengeance.  They've already used Brunhild (the specific build of ARIEL II that was used on the YF-25 and YF-30).  Grimgerde has potential issues since Gundam recently had a MS that used that name in Iron-Blooded Orphans.  Norn is probably off the table for the same reason (RX-0 No.2 Banshee Norn in Gundam UC).  Maybe they'll branch out mythologically and go for another dragonslayer, since that was Siegfried's best-known feat?  

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was my hypothesis as well... that this'll be something broadly analogous to the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung or VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei.  An ace custom job with a different name that's nevertheless still thematically related to the original model's.  Like how "Sturmvogel" and "Schwalbe" were the names of two different Me 262 variants, or how "Caliburn" was the Latin translation of the Welsh "Caledfwich" and eventually became "Excalibur" once translated into French, while "Nothung" is thematically tied in as another Sword-in-the-Stone type magic blade from Norse mythology (as an alternate name for Gram, Sigurd's/Siegfried's sword).

Thematically, if they keep borrowing from Norse mythology the way they've done heavily starting in Macross 30 onwards, the new VF will have a name drawn from Der Ring des Nibelungen as well.  Perhaps Siegmund, Siegfried's father?  Sieglinde would feel a bit off-brand despite her being associated with shape-changing since her entire story arc was about vengeance.  They've already used Brunhild (the specific build of ARIEL II that was used on the YF-25 and YF-30).  Grimgerde has potential issues since Gundam recently had a MS that used that name in Iron-Blooded Orphans.  Norn is probably off the table for the same reason (RX-0 No.2 Banshee Norn in Gundam UC).  Maybe they'll branch out mythologically and go for another dragonslayer, since that was Siegfried's best-known feat?  

Well, at least we know they won't name it Mjolnir. :P

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What’s the in-universe reason for transforming ships after SDF-1? I’d think the Macross classes after that would just be designed so they can fire the gun without all that transforming mechanism taking up space.

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2 hours ago, aurance said:

What’s the in-universe reason for transforming ships after SDF-1? I’d think the Macross classes after that would just be designed so they can fire the gun without all that transforming mechanism taking up space.

Answer (from Macross Compendium)

"In attack mode, armaments are exposed and close-quarter combat ability is high. Transformation is used to improve combat capability and is more advanced the the first generation Macross class warship. Transformation during atmospheric entry is possible. Use of gunship (Macross Cannon) mainly in Attack-mode allows for unrestricted angle-of-fire. Internalized-type armaments for stealth purposes. Forward deck of the aircraft carrier, located on the forearms, can be used as a shield, therefore, energy converting armor in addition to normal compound armor is used. Diamond in the shoulder region functions as a defense shield. Due to the aircraft carrier's large size, stealthing was difficult. To compensate, active stealth function is used for the stealth nature. The aircraft carrier's two-step flight deck has demonstrated superior aircraft deployment capability. Angled deck on the port-side of the of the aft deck. It does not adhere to a passive stealth form due to active stealth."

-New Macross Class Entry, Macross Compendium (emphasis mine)

Link: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/New_Macross_class

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3 hours ago, aurance said:

What’s the in-universe reason for transforming ships after SDF-1? I’d think the Macross classes after that would just be designed so they can fire the gun without all that transforming mechanism taking up space.

Funny you should mention that... as I just (re)translated a Macross Chronicle Glossary section describing just that!

"
Transformation [M, 7, F, Ai]

The Transformation is one of the distinctive features of the combat vessel part of the Emigrant Ships. It refers to the ability to transform from a military vessel to the Storming Attack form, and vice versa. The SDF-1 was not designed to be transformed at the start of its construction. The transformation originally came about due to the disappearance of the SDF-1's energy circuit, and the block structure of the ship was rearranged in order to connect the main gun directly to the reactor. However, after the effectiveness of this ability was confirmed, it was actively introduced into subsequent ships, and used to strengthen the Emigrant Ships' combat capabilities.

Caption: [Transformation] With a total length of 1,200 m, the SDF-1 Macross requires more than three minutes to transform. In addition, the transformation caused catastrophic damage to the urban areas inside the ship. However, those problems were resolved in the subsequent ships, and proactive transformations have been carried out in combat.

"

 

From Macross Chronicle Glossary Sheet #16: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRglossary/MCRglossary.php

 

(above quote is from the revised translation that I'm currently working on and have yet to upload at the time of writing this)

Edited by sketchley
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16 hours ago, aurance said:

What’s the in-universe reason for transforming ships after SDF-1? I’d think the Macross classes after that would just be designed so they can fire the gun without all that transforming mechanism taking up space.

Apart from what's been previously stated about facilitating a greater field-of-fire for the main heavy quantum reaction beam cannon and preserving its stealthiness by storing some of its weapons internally, the transformation also makes the ships more maneuverable.

The Macross Quarter-class, for instance, is described as having fighter-like maneuverability despite being a medium-sized warship.

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5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross Quarter-class, for instance, is described as having fighter-like maneuverability despite being a medium-sized warship.

I'd hate to be the guy that had to design THAT inertial control system.

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1 hour ago, JB0 said:

I'd hate to be the guy that had to design THAT inertial control system.

It's pretty clear that it's not quite up to the task on the Macross Quarter-class, given that Cathy Glass gets so queasy from it she has to go throw up as soon as her first sortie ends.

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty clear that it's not quite up to the task on the Macross Quarter-class, given that Cathy Glass gets so queasy from it she has to go throw up as soon as her first sortie ends.

*barfbags not included*

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On 3/13/2021 at 6:41 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Apart from what's been previously stated about facilitating a greater field-of-fire for the main heavy quantum reaction beam cannon and preserving its stealthiness by storing some of its weapons internally, the transformation also makes the ships more maneuverable.

The Macross Quarter-class, for instance, is described as having fighter-like maneuverability despite being a medium-sized warship.

I guess like the AMBAC in Gundam or something. Still seems incredibly inefficient but I guess no more than transforming fighters :D

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22 hours ago, aurance said:

I guess like the AMBAC in Gundam or something. Still seems incredibly inefficient but I guess no more than transforming fighters :D

I'd assume it probably has a lot more to do with a simply excessive thrust-to-weight ratio for a warship, the ability to move the main engines around as the legs, and an excess of high thrust secondary engines to act as outsized verniers.

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Re: the alleged utility of a transforming space battleship, I will quote Ryoko from the first Tenchi Muyo OAV: "that may all be true, but I'm not convinced." :) You get the same results ("point the spinal-mount weapon thattaway") by putting the engine exhausts on gimbals or having higher-thrust verniers, without wasting mass on transformation actuators. You might want to reorient the 20% of the ship's mass which is the gun instead of the 100% of the whole ship, but given how movement works in microgravity (i.e., when your feet aren't anchored to a much larger body) that's nigh-unavoidable.

"Fighter-like maneuverability" you're not going to get without mass-reduction magic (as in Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda) and why would you even need such a capability in a battleship? We haven't seen cap ship-on-cap ship dogfights ... well, except for the Macross Elysion high-speed water-skating in the vidclip above, and I refuse to believe that was actually a movement scenario programmed or endorsed by the shipbuilder.

IMHO, this is irreducibly a "rule of cool"/"franchise's trademark style" thing, like Space Battleship Yamato using Pacific War tactics in space, or combining robots, or almost everything in Star Wars.

Edited by Lexomatic
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2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

Re: the alleged utility of a transforming space battleship, I will quote Ryoko from the first Tenchi Muyo OAV: "that may all be true, but I'm not convinced." :) 

We don't make the news, we just report it. :unknw:

 

2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

"Fighter-like maneuverability" you're not going to get without mass-reduction magic (as in Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda) [...]

Present and accounted for, as is the case in most sci-fi.

Macross makes far more liberal use of gravity and inertia manipulation technology than most sci-fi properties I'm familiar with.

 

2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

[...] and why would you even need such a capability in a battleship? We haven't seen cap ship-on-cap ship dogfights ... well, except for the Macross Elysion high-speed water-skating in the vidclip above, and I refuse to believe that was actually a movement scenario programmed or endorsed by the shipbuilder.

We did see that it has its advantages several times in Macross Frontier, with the Macross Quarter repeatedly exploiting its greater maneuverability to dodge incoming fire from heavy quantum reaction cannons on Vajra ships and the Battle Galaxy.

If you want to think about it this way, a Macross-type warship exists for one main reason: to deploy a disproportionately large heavy quantum reaction beam cannon.  Because those heavy quantum reaction beam weapons have such overwhelming firepower that can one-hit kill enemy warships, entire taskforces, or even a small fleet in a single shot, they're quite a significant strategic advantage.  The greater maneuverability of a Macross-type warship could be seen as a means to offset the weapon's inherent disadvantages: its limited field of fire, the amount of time it takes to charge the cannon to fire (which can be several minutes), and the amount of downtime to reset the weapon between shots.

(Limitations like this are why thermonuclear reaction weaponry was considered superior to heavy quantum reaction beam cannons in-universe... the same destructive potential, but more flexible, scalable, and most importantly spammable.)

 

2 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

IMHO, this is irreducibly a "rule of cool"/"franchise's trademark style" thing, like Space Battleship Yamato using Pacific War tactics in space, or combining robots, or almost everything in Star Wars.

Well, duh... but the question asked was EXPLICITLY about the IN-UNIVERSE rationale behind it.

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So, I was poking at Variable Fighter Master File; VF-22 Sturmvogel earlier... and stumbled upon a section devoted to a second type of active stealth system it claims the VF-22 had.

Normal active stealth in Macross is an active cancellation technology not dissimilar in principle to what noise cancelling headphones do to sound waves, producing a wave that has an identical frequency and amplitude but an opposite phase to cancel out the net amplitude.  

This alternate system that's mentioned for the VF-22 is called the Electromagnetic Sphere Field Stealth system, and it's written up as a sort of related development from the pinpoint barrier system and reads like a relative of plasma stealth.  Apparently the system throws a spherical electromagnetic field around the aircraft that is so intense it can block both radar waves and laser wavelengths from search LIDAR systems.  In an amusing case of "reality ensues", they mention that this draws a gargantuan amount of power and actually blinds the VF-22's own radar and LIDAR systems as well, forcing it to either rely on sensors aboard a towed decoy outside of the electromagnetic field or flying blind for a bit.

Not the weirdest tech tidbit I've found in Master File so far, but it's up there.

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3 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Isn't that the stealth system being engaged when the YF-22 disappears from Isamu's chaser VF-11 radar?

Yeah, that was the first real look we got at active stealth in the animation itself, when Guld's YF-21 vanished from the radar on Isamu's VF-11B.

It was Macross Zero that retconned active stealth into VFs from the very beginning, and later saw the active stealth systems in the YF-19 and YF-21 reclassified as 3rd Generation ones.

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5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Cool ! These super packs any different, i wonder. Longer burn time?

Hard to say... especially since some materials (e.g. Master File) have indicated that the boosters on many models of FAST Pack are at least partly modularized so they can be customized to the needs of the operating unit, able to exchange weapons space for more fuel or vice versa.  Except for that fin on the top, they appear to be the exact same Super Pack as the one the Siegfried was using previously, just mounted on the winglet hinge like a Lilldraken instead of dorsally.

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32 minutes ago, Bolt said:

More than likely Bandai phoned it in. They're not done working that mold!

:lol:

More likely the guys behind the CG models decided to re-use the model on their end, just sticking it in a new location.

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34 minutes ago, Bolt said:

More than likely Bandai phoned it in. They're not done working that mold!

:lol:

Just now, Sanity is Optional said:

More likely the guys behind the CG models decided to re-use the model on their end, just sticking it in a new location.

A little from column A, a little from column B...

But at least it's easily justifiable in-universe.  The Brisingr globular cluster is an isolated and economically underdeveloped region of the galaxy, so it's only natural that the governments in the Brisingr Alliance and their New UN Forces would heavily favor equipment that offered a high degree of operational versatility.  The VF-171 Nightmare Plus would've been a well-received aircraft out there for exactly that reason, since the stock VF-171 could be converted to an attacker, bomber, reconnaissance plane, and drone mothership with the exchange of modular components.  The VF-31's basically just one better, since it only has to exchange the one (admittedly large) hot-swappable mission package.  It'd be right up their alley do to a Tornado Pack minus the Pack part like they've done here... mounting the rotating boosters directly to the wingtips.  Various other components, like the standard ordnance container's gun turret setup, are already inspired by the Tornado Pack's turret, so why not kitbash a poor man's Tornado Pack into existence while they're at it... esp. since Windermere already did exactly that with the Lilldrakens.

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On 3/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

A little from column A, a little from column B...

But at least it's easily justifiable in-universe.  The Brisingr globular cluster is an isolated and economically underdeveloped region of the galaxy, so it's only natural that the governments in the Brisingr Alliance and their New UN Forces would heavily favor equipment that offered a high degree of operational versatility.  The VF-171 Nightmare Plus would've been a well-received aircraft out there for exactly that reason, since the stock VF-171 could be converted to an attacker, bomber, reconnaissance plane, and drone mothership with the exchange of modular components.  The VF-31's basically just one better, since it only has to exchange the one (admittedly large) hot-swappable mission package.  It'd be right up their alley do to a Tornado Pack minus the Pack part like they've done here... mounting the rotating boosters directly to the wingtips.  Various other components, like the standard ordnance container's gun turret setup, are already inspired by the Tornado Pack's turret, so why not kitbash a poor man's Tornado Pack into existence while they're at it... esp. since Windermere already did exactly that with the Lilldrakens.

Makes perfect sense, more "bang' for your buck" with a proven airframe that won't break the bank.

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18 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Makes perfect sense, more "bang' for your buck" with a proven airframe that won't break the bank.

18 hours ago, Bolt said:

Economy Valkyrie's..:unknw:

Like real world militaries, the (New) UN Forces have always been cost-conscious... there's that old wisdom connected to basically any government service "remember that all of your equipment was built by the lowest bidder".  

Most, if not all, of the 2nd Generation VFs were deliberately designed to be "Economy Valkyries" due to the limited resources of postwar Earth and the first wave of emigrant fleets in the 2010s.  The VF-4 Lightning III's initial mass production type shared 25% of its parts with the 1st Gen VF-1 Valkyrie.  The unseen VF-5, VF-6, and VF-7 were all made to be low cost next-gen VFs cheaper to build and maintain than the VF-1.  Comparatively low costs is also mentioned in connection with the VF-9 and VF-5000.  You could also reasonably argue it was a cost-saving move to go back to a single jack-of-all-trades main VF instead of multiple regime-optimized models in the 3rd Generation with the VF-11.  In the 4th Gen, the less costly VF-171 won out over the VF-19 and VF-22 in the end.  There's always an element of cost-consciousness lurking somewhere in their development.

Being isolated on the far side of the galaxy, the Brisingr globular cluster's kind of almost never really properly escaped that initial period of isolation that came from being a first wave emigrant government.  They developed the VF-31 locally with an emphasis on cost performance and stimulating their local economy, so it's not at all surprising that they would have prioritized the multipurposefulness of the aircraft and tried to do at least as well on modularity and adaptability as the VF-171 did.

 

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Like real world militaries, the (New) UN Forces have always been cost-conscious... there's that old wisdom connected to basically any government service "remember that all of your equipment was built by the lowest bidder".  

Most, if not all, of the 2nd Generation VFs were deliberately designed to be "Economy Valkyries" due to the limited resources of postwar Earth and the first wave of emigrant fleets in the 2010s.  The VF-4 Lightning III's initial mass production type shared 25% of its parts with the 1st Gen VF-1 Valkyrie.  The unseen VF-5, VF-6, and VF-7 were all made to be low cost next-gen VFs cheaper to build and maintain than the VF-1.  Comparatively low costs is also mentioned in connection with the VF-9 and VF-5000.  You could also reasonably argue it was a cost-saving move to go back to a single jack-of-all-trades main VF instead of multiple regime-optimized models in the 3rd Generation with the VF-11.  In the 4th Gen, the less costly VF-171 won out over the VF-19 and VF-22 in the end.  There's always an element of cost-consciousness lurking somewhere in their development.

Being isolated on the far side of the galaxy, the Brisingr globular cluster's kind of almost never really properly escaped that initial period of isolation that came from being a first wave emigrant government.  They developed the VF-31 locally with an emphasis on cost performance and stimulating their local economy, so it's not at all surprising that they would have prioritized the multipurposefulness of the aircraft and tried to do at least as well on modularity and adaptability as the VF-171 did.

 

*imagines valkyries with parts held on with "million mile an hour" tape*

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I ran across this on my YT feed this evening...

 

(25) Macross Plus Reboot (FanArt) - YouTube

 

Intriguing to say the least... the part with the multi-missile launchers, clearly meets the fan part but... does it work?

 

There is also this on his page...

(25) Breaking The Sound Barrier - YouTube

 

There isnt much there on his page but what is there seems very exciting at the very least...

 

 

 

Edited by TehPW
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3 hours ago, TehPW said:

I ran across this on my YT feed this evening...

 

(25) Macross Plus Reboot (FanArt) - YouTube

 

Intriguing to say the least... the part with the multi-missile launchers, clearly meets the fan part but... does it work?

 

There is also this on his page...

(25) Breaking The Sound Barrier - YouTube

 

There isnt much there on his page but what is there seems very exciting at the very least...

That's some sweet looking fan animation.

I've no idea what to make of this, though...

image.thumb.png.b5b15260d1aad9a753d905a2225afb69.png

Fanmade unmanned VF-25?  Or a VF-25 with a an armored canopy cover like the VF-27's?  Hmmm....

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