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1 hour ago, Kanedas Bike said:

I'm just still amazed that in full retrospect no one is picking apart Return of the Jedi - the Ewoks beat Imperial soldiers at the height of the Empire. Ewoks???? lol

It has to be because expectations for The Last Jedi were so sky high, that's the only logical reason people are so pissed off. If no one thought this would be or could be one of the best Star Wars movies ever made before they actually saw it then I think the fan-based criticism (since critics love TLJ) would be articulated in a much more measured, or metered, fashion.

It'd be like "I wasn't expecting much, and I didn't get much".

I think Rian was bold in some of his choices, but he obviously took one or four too many "risks" with the story and characters and it was too much, too abruptly from the Star Wars "norm".

-b.

ROTJ has most definitely been picked apart over the years, but those cries died out long ago, and everyone still seems to regard it as the worst of the original trilogy for that.  It's just become water under the bridge at this point, which I expect TLJ will become at one point as well, somewhere down the road.  A lot of the OT did kind of hinge on stormtroopers having pretty terrible aim, which was often blamed on their helmets, but it is what it is.  The best that can be said is that the Empire really just had no idea how to deal with guerilla warfare tactics.

I don't even want to say my expectations were exceedingly high, but I was expecting that this movie would give some payoff to all the setup in the previous one.  That didn't really happen in most of the ways people hoped.  I can kind of appreciate why, but it still winds up feeling like a bait-and-switch for people who were looking forward to where those plot threads may have led.  Did the audiences expect too much?  Probably, but the end result is basically getting rickrolled.

At this point?  The risks taken with the characters don't even really bother me at all.  Even the lack of payoff I can appreciate the irony of.  It's just that 2/3 to 3/4 of the plotline leading up to the finale was possibly the most cringe-worthy string of complete failure I've ever seen.  The people alive at the end survived in spite of the actions of the "heroes," not because of them, and it left me with a distaste for a lot of the main characters, because I don't think they did anything substantial enough to redeem themselves.

Like.. Poe?  Seriously dude.  You screwed up so hard.  You don't get off the hook just because you suddenly have a revelation in the last 20 minutes about how important it is to follow orders.  I don't know exactly how many people died because your half-cocked rescue plan drove itself into a ditch, but your actions probably just killed over a thousand people.*  Nice going hero.

*Star Wars wiki lists the crew of the Raddus as a minimum of 1139 people.  Yeah.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

ROTJ has most definitely been picked apart over the years, but those cries died out long ago, and everyone still seems to regard it as the worst of the original trilogy for that.  It's just become water under the bridge at this point, which I expect TLJ will become at one point as well, somewhere down the road.  A lot of the OT did kind of hinge on stormtroopers having pretty terrible aim, which was often blamed on their helmets, but it is what it is.  The best that can be said is that the Empire really just had no idea how to deal with guerilla warfare tactics.

I don't even want to say my expectations were exceedingly high, but I was expecting that this movie would give some payoff to all the setup in the previous one.  That didn't really happen in most of the ways people hoped.  I can kind of appreciate why, but it still winds up feeling like a bait-and-switch for people who were looking forward to where those plot threads may have led.  Did the audiences expect too much?  Probably, but the end result is basically getting rickrolled.

At this point?  The risks taken with the characters don't even really bother me at all.  Even the lack of payoff I can appreciate the irony of.  It's just that 2/3 to 3/4 of the plotline leading up to the finale was possibly the most cringe-worthy string of complete failure I've ever seen.  The people alive at the end survived in spite of the actions of the "heroes," not because of them, and it left me with a distaste for a lot of the main characters, because I don't think they did anything substantial enough to redeem themselves.

Like.. Poe?  Seriously dude.  You screwed up so hard.  You don't get off the hook just because you suddenly have a revelation in the last 20 minutes about how important it is to follow orders.  I don't know exactly how many people died because your half-cocked rescue plan drove itself into a ditch, but your actions probably just killed over a thousand people.*  Nice going hero.

*Star Wars wiki lists the crew of the Raddus as a minimum of 1139 people.  Yeah.

 

 

Well said. I tire of the supporters lumping everyone that had issues with the movie into 1 camp. Misogynistic, racist,  fanboys who didn’t get what we wanted from our fan fiction theories. Granted there have been a few who seemed like that in this very thread, but that is not the case at all for the vast majority of us.  Like you pointed out. TFA specifically set up those questions which led to 2 years of waiting and speculating, and then they were just thrown away. If they were unimportant details then why set it up in the first place? I like your Rick-Rolled analogy. I didn’t HATE the movie either time I saw it, but what I liked is easily eclipsed by what I didn’t like.  Basically, the lows are far more extreme than the highs so any pleasure from the movie quickly disapates after me viewing it.

As for Poe, yeah gotta agree with you but like I said a few pages ago Holdo gets a strong assist with for a majority of those deaths;

Holdo was still a contributing factor in that. Think about in ESB. Leia is briefing the Troops about the how the Hoth Evacuation will proceed. A grunt actually speaks out by incredulously asking “2 fighters against a Star Destroyer!?” Does Leia just keep her mouth shut and smile, give some cryptic message of faith, or just tell the grunt he’s too low ranking to be in the know..(all things that Holdo did in the course of the “Chase”) No, she answered the Troopers concern by explaining that the Ion Cannon will provide covering fire. That’s why I can’t stand the lack of Logic in what Holdo did. If she would’ve just told Poe, regardless of his recent demotion he still destroyed Starkiller base and was, according to TFA one of Leia’s most trusted people. Not to mention she obviously talked to Holdo about him being the a future Leader of the Resistance, according to dialog between them in TLJ. 

Chris

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On 10-1-2018 at 9:20 PM, danth said:

There is a lot of alt-right butt hurt about the new Star Wars movies daring to have a female Jedi (as if Anakin and Luke weren't Mary Sues), or strong women with blue hair, or whatever they're mad about.

News Flash: the Star Wars movies were never for people like you.

So now sexists and misogynists are under the same banner as the "Alt-Right"

I don't think you know what "Alt-Right" stands for

Also: 

Luke was a flawed character in abilities, Anakin a flawed character in character

I don't think you know what "Mary Sue" stands for

 

I also was unaware that movies are only allowed to be seen by people that like them and agree on all of their terms, I happen to think "Thelma & Louise" was a good movie

Did I do an unspeakable act by watching a movie with strong feminist undertones, even though I don't agree with feminism?

 

...and you made me chuckle with the emphasis on the "Strong women with blue hair", as if people needed confirmation about progressive stereotypes

 

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The original Star Wars movies were about:

  • Killing fascists (who were modeled after Nazis)
  • A badass woman who took no crap and lead the Rebellion
  • A black guy blowing up the final Death Star

Face it: the George Lucas was a big ol' "SJW".

 

 

Hate to break it to you, back then, we didn't give a damn about diversity in movies, nobody was moaning about how movies needed more of it either

Nobody gave a damn Leia was a woman, nobody gave a damn lando was black and nobody gave a damn Akbar was a fish/thing, people went looking to see a good movie

not identity politics

Perhaps its better you put forth Gene Roddenberry as a groundbreaking director, at least he did it in a time when diversity was still a sensitive subject

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28 minutes ago, Nightbat said:

Hate to break it to you, back then, we didn't give a damn about diversity in movies, nobody was moaning about how movies needed more of it either

Back then, minorities were happy for any representation they could get that wasn't a blatant racial stereotype or an extra in a background shot.

That lack of representation in leading roles is literally the reason blaxploitation movies became a thing in the 70's.

 

28 minutes ago, Nightbat said:

Nobody gave a damn Leia was a woman, nobody gave a damn lando was black and nobody gave a damn Akbar was a fish/thing, people went looking to see a good movie

There's not a lot of fish-people living among us, so they're not exactly a category that screams for some representation in film... but from everything I've read, Leia was a pretty big deal being an action-oriented woman in a highly visible leadership role and Lando was as well thanks to a largely stereotype-free role as a civic leader-slash-respected businessman who got an actual character arc of sorts.

(Mind you, after the whole gold bikini thing, you'd be hard pressed to find a man who DIDN'T care that Leia was a woman...)

 

28 minutes ago, Nightbat said:

Perhaps its better you put forth Gene Roddenberry as a groundbreaking director, at least he did it in a time when diversity was still a sensitive subject

Yeah, though diversity was arguably the lesser of Gene's controversial progressive agendas... 

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19 hours ago, ArchieNov said:

What I and many people are complaining about is the lack of coherency or continuity in TLJ with the films that came before it. There were things that were already known or established in the prior films that contributed to the lore (regardless of how stupid it may be) which TLJ totally ignored or contradicted (and not in a good way, meaning it contradicted it in a manner that made less sense or became even more stupid). I don't need to elaborate on these things any more since there's enough on that already.

Quoted for GREAT truth. Most spot-on post in the whole thread... from my point of view. ;)

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15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Back then, minorities were happy for any representation they could get that wasn't a blatant racial stereotype or an extra in a background shot.

That lack of representation in leading roles is literally the reason blaxploitation movies became a thing in the 70's.

I'm not talking from the viewpoint of "minorities", I'm talking from the viewpoint of viewing a movie, for, you know: entertainment purposes

apparently, that specific use of "stereotypes" (redundant, since characters in movies are always stereotypes), was a major success, not just with black people to which was catered to in the first place, but white people as well and apparently helped elevate black people to A-list status, even though catering to a much smaller market (IF we were to believe the agenda that white people segregate themselves from anything non-white)

 

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There's not a lot of fish-people living among us, so they're not exactly a category that screams for some representation in film...

I could now make a joke about you marginalizing otherkin,... :p

 

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but from everything I've read, Leia was a pretty big deal being an action-oriented woman in a highly visible leadership role

Ironically, she was portrayed as a flawless character, brave, assertive, etc. a better 'character' than the 'heroes' we initially are introduced to

Anyone calling Luke a Marty Stu, should first take a look at how Leia was written

 

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 and Lando was as well thanks to a largely stereotype-free role as a civic leader-slash-respected businessman who got an actual character arc of sorts.

It certainly wasn't 1960 anymore and I point to my comment about "Blaxploitation" again

 

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(Mind you, after the whole gold bikini thing, you'd be hard pressed to find a man who DIDN'T care that Leia was a woman...)

Keeping in mind the movie was targeted towards teen boys, this certainly got the adults and lesbians on board :lol:

(If I have to argue against criticism of heteronormative behaviour, I'm pretty sure the human race is on it's way out)
 

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Yeah, though diversity was arguably the lesser of Gene's controversial progressive agendas... 

When you think about it, the guy with the pointy ears was still higher in rank than the then-current political adversaries and minorities ;)

 

~

 

Personally, I don't give a damn about diversity in movies, but I do give a damn about forced diversity in movies, forcing leads to resentment, resentment leads to hate

...fill in the rest :lol: ;)

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3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

I'm not talking from the viewpoint of "minorities", I'm talking from the viewpoint of viewing a movie, for, you know: entertainment purposes

I feel like you're kinda missing the trees for the forest with respect to the point I was making.

Yes, people go to the movies to be entertained.  A big part of the entertainment of a movie is immersion, and what helps with the immersiveness of a movie and thus its entertainment value, is having characters you can relate to.  Being unable to relate to the cast can damn an otherwise good movie, and being able to relate to the cast can save an otherwise mediocre one.

That's why, back then, the roles of Leia and Lando were a pretty big deal.  A princess who was an ass-kicking take-charge leader instead of a naive, defenseless piece of arm candy, and a black man who was successful and respected businessman and civic leader rather than a criminal or a butler.  It's much the same reaction that Whoopi Goldberg related having when she found Star Trek while channel-surfing as a kid... "there's a black woman on TV and she isn't a maid!".

 

3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

I could now make a joke about you marginalizing otherkin,... :p

Do I even want to know what that means?

 

3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

Ironically, she was portrayed as a flawless character, brave, assertive, etc. a better 'character' than the 'heroes' we initially are introduced to

Anyone calling Luke a Marty Stu, should first take a look at how Leia was written

Still, it was a huge, HUGE step forward from your standard film industry princess or ladies role in an action movie as The Load, the Damsel in Distress, and/or the Plot Coupon.  Yeah she's not a super-complex character, but then nobody in Star Wars is... it's built onto your standard Hero's Journey tropes, and the public's familiarity with all the associated tropes helps gloss over a lot of really severe issues with the writing.  I mean, hell, Disney didn't have a princess who wasn't The Load until what?  1998?  Back then, the audience would've gone into Star Wars expecting Leia to behave more like Willie from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

 

3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

It certainly wasn't 1960 anymore and I point to my comment about "Blaxploitation" again

Kinda my point... it's not like the civil rights movement magically cured inequality, and even today there's still a pretty big struggle for minorities in film to escape being typecast into racial stereotypes.  Good luck finding a black man in a police movie who isn't either the partner, the guy who's two days from retirement and dies, a shrieking ninny like every character Chris Rock has played, or some kind of drug-dealing thug gangster pimp.  Actresses with large breasts get typecast as the sexpot or the femme fatale, and there's a standing point of frustration that women over 40 get offered an anomalous number of roles as witches.  My point, it's an ongoing problem.

 

3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

When you think about it, the guy with the pointy ears was still higher in rank than the then-current political adversaries and minorities ;)

George Lucas just wanted to make his spacy fantasy movie... Gene Roddenberry was a man on a social progressive mission to give every last one of the network censors an ulcer. 

Mind you, Gene could only push the network censors so far before they started pushing back.  His original vision of Spock was as someone who looked "Satanic"... as in bright red, with horns and a goatee.  The network were also the ones who killed the idea of having a female first officer on the Enterprise, and Gene and William Ware Theiss played all kinds of merry hell with the standards and practices on wardrobe.  There was considerable frustration expressed that shows like I Dream of Genie could get away with a costume where the actress's breasts were one good sneeze away from falling out but you couldn't show a belly button.  The huge topic of pushback was the interracial kiss, so much so that the network insisted on shooting an alternate "hug" take that they had intended to force the show to use instead of the kiss... and were only stopped by Bill Shatner deliberately flubbing every take that was shot for the hug variant by making absurd faces at the camera.  (The political adversaries part was a representational issue that Gene himself admitted was a massive oversight, resulting in the addition of Chekhov, and with Khan recognizing him in Star Trek II despite "Space Seed" having been shot before Koenig's additiont o the cast, a famous joke about Khan and Chekhov having met in the bathroom, earning Khan's eternal enmity for using all the TP.)

 

3 hours ago, Nightbat said:

Personally, I don't give a damn about diversity in movies, but I do give a damn about forced diversity in movies, forcing leads to resentment, resentment leads to hate

...fill in the rest :lol: ;)

It could be argued that defining "forced diversity" is the very heart of the discontent about casting in The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens.

To some, any minority representation in the main cast is "forced diversity".

To others, that minority representation isn't forced... it's just a reflection of modern society.

To an academic, it might be the writers predetermining a character's race even when the character's race has no situational or contextual relevance to the plot or their role in it.

To most, it's "shut up and watch the film you smegheads".

(Really, IMO Ridley Scott and co. had the right idea on casting when they were writing the original Alien... wrote all the characters without any references to race or gender, and then just cast whomever they felt best for the role.

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The diversity starts to feel forced if the maker have little else to do for the characters than to represent a target group. The whole casino planet side quest did a huge favor to this perception.

All these issues would be moot if the movie had delivered on the entertainment level. IMO neither the diversity nor the deconstruction of the lore were the main obstacles here, they're just additional fuel to the frustration about the dramatic structure.

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I think the perception of "forced diversity" is just due to current social thinking since its been a topic on social media and news outlets for a while.

Casting is fine imo. 

 

P.S and the Ewoks didnt "beat" the Empire, they where an unexpected diversion at best and it was effectivefor the rebels to use them.

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8 hours ago, electric indigo said:

The diversity starts to feel forced if the maker have little else to do for the characters than to represent a target group. The whole casino planet side quest did a huge favor to this perception.

Eh, people were grumbling LOUDLY about "forced diversity" even before that... look at the fuss that was thrown over having a black main character in The Force Awakens.

 

 

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All these issues would be moot if the movie had delivered on the entertainment level. IMO neither the diversity nor the deconstruction of the lore were the main obstacles here, they're just additional fuel to the frustration about the dramatic structure.

When you think about it, shouldn't the point effectively be moot regardless?  I mean, if the character is there solely to tick off a "we have one of those" ethnic checkbox that means that their ethnicity is not relevant to the story.  If the character could be played equally well by an actor or actress of an arbitrary ethnic background without any material change to the role or story, then what's to complain about?  Unless you're a racist, there's no material difference between the role being played by the actor they picked or any other random actor or actress.

(Not saying anyone here is... but I really can't see any other reason to get good and mad about those casting decisions when the character could be just as easily replaced by another CGI abomination like Jar-Jar Binks with no appreciable difference.)

 

2 hours ago, Vepariga said:

P.S and the Ewoks didnt "beat" the Empire, they where an unexpected diversion at best and it was effectivefor the rebels to use them.

Didn't they?  I mean, they wiped out a solid division of Imperial ground troops including multiple armored fighting vehicles using nothing fancier than napped-stone weapons, arrows, and logs tied to ropes.  They had the advantage of numbers and the element of surprise, and they seemingly did enough damage to the Empire's forces on Endor to start repurposing captured Imperial kit as household items.

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51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Didn't they?  I mean, they wiped out a solid division of Imperial ground troops including multiple armored fighting vehicles using nothing fancier than napped-stone weapons, arrows, and logs tied to ropes.  They had the advantage of numbers and the element of surprise, and they seemingly did enough damage to the Empire's forces on Endor to start repurposing captured Imperial kit as household items.

I've wondered how long they had to prepare. They had probably been studying the Imperial forces for at least a few months - probably with heavy casualties. Those AT-ST traps didn't just crop up overnight, I would imagine. They were probably much more prepared than the Empire had ever given them credit for. I mean, Vietnam and Afghanistan have historically demonstrated that superior technology and training don't necessarily guarantee the outcome of a military engagement.

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13 minutes ago, Axelay said:

I've wondered how long they had to prepare. They had probably been studying the Imperial forces for at least a few months - probably with heavy casualties. Those AT-ST traps didn't just crop up overnight, I would imagine. They were probably much more prepared than the Empire had ever given them credit for. I mean, Vietnam and Afghanistan have historically demonstrated that superior technology and training don't necessarily guarantee the outcome of a military engagement.

Well, if the pattern continues and it's just a matter of preptime... the First Order should be done in by an army of Porgs led by Chewbacca in the next one.

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, if the pattern continues and it's just a matter of preptime... the First Order should be done in by an army of Porgs led by Chewbacca in the next one.

Hey, if it gives Chewie some better screentime in the next one, I'll take it.

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh, people were grumbling LOUDLY about "forced diversity" even before that... look at the fuss that was thrown over having a black main character in The Force Awakens.

When you think about it, shouldn't the point effectively be moot regardless?  I mean, if the character is there solely to tick off a "we have one of those" ethnic checkbox that means that their ethnicity is not relevant to the story.  If the character could be played equally well by an actor or actress of an arbitrary ethnic background without any material change to the role or story, then what's to complain about?  Unless you're a racist, there's no material difference between the role being played by the actor they picked or any other random actor or actress.

Point is, I was too entertained by TFA to bother about these issues.

And if a character's story arc is pointless and happens to be un-entertaining, you can get the feeling that it was only added as an afterthought to the story to tick those ethnic checkboxes, as you so well put it, and that these checkboxes have a higher priority at the studio than a good story.

 

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Most movies from the late 70s, 80s and 90s would have never been made using 2020 standards-Mel Brooks stated this case. Most movies not factoring 2020 standards were world acclaimed.

That applies to books, comics, tv shows cartoons and songs. Might as well erase 2 decades of media.

I remember when Matt Damon appeared in the big Chinese film, which I didnt think was too bad. At least better than TLJ but a lot of Chinese people got a lot of butt hurt over a white guy in their film. .(The Great Wall)... ;/ I lost count how many times I told people Mugando (Infernal Affairs) was a superior movie series to the theft that happened to that script in Departed. Um Where was all the screaming from hollywood about appropriation ? Silence. I remember some people called this out and yet no credit was given Wai Keung Lau

I watch a lot of Mainland and Hong Kong Movies and TV shows. I watch a lot of Anime. I never once thought where is the white guy? I never thought while watching anime what nationality or race someone was? What is happening to me is bizarre and it has nothing to do where I stand politically.

 

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4 hours ago, electric indigo said:

Point is, I was too entertained by TFA to bother about these issues.

And if a character's story arc is pointless and happens to be un-entertaining, you can get the feeling that it was only added as an afterthought to the story to tick those ethnic checkboxes, as you so well put it, and that these checkboxes have a higher priority at the studio than a good story.

On the other hand, if you're going to not bother entertaining anyone anyway - so you've just X'ed out the story checkmark whole - you may as well look at the rest of what you've got and knock some of those off, no? If diversity has to be forced - assuming that it isn't and doesn't have to be - it may as well be done so in order to make the industry healthier than not. It's not like diversity can't apply to the cardboard cutout roles, too.

I mean, I happen to think the casting was fine and that TLJ was entertaining and that TFA was actually the disappointing one, so... eh. Either way, I don't think anyone's going to argue that diversity is BAD for the industry.

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This showed up in my feed today. I've said before I'm not a big fan of Moviebob, but I know some people here are, and sharing his videos seems to have made Google think I'm among them. Oh well, here's food for thought.

Also there's this guy, Folding Ideas, whose higher-production videos I like quite a bit. "So what did you think? ...doesn't matter. I liked it." *snort*

 

Edited by kajnrig
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Bob the hippo chipman

 

Oh yes. The guy that called gamer gate a right wing conspiracy to not get Hillary elected and jack thompson was a right wing plant to destroy the gaming industry. LOL

Edit I almost forgot the guy that called Bungie racist for giving a spartan blue eyes and gave fitness advice while eating the entire menu of McDonalds

ugh

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29 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Just saw it (yup, a little late but had a lot to do this past month).  Had fun, loved the ending bits.  Still far above the prequals and ROTJ, not quite as good as the original two.

Speaking of RotJ, what has the general impression of RotJ been like since it released? Speaking only for myself, I remember liking it just a little bit less than ESB, but I haven't watched any of the OT more than... probably three times? Which is sadly less than I can say for Phantom Menace, which I have to have seen over a dozen times now.

A rough tally would go something like:

Episode 1: 10+

Episode 4/6: 3

Episode 5/8: 2

Episode 2/3/7: 1

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1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

Just saw it (yup, a little late but had a lot to do this past month).  Had fun, loved the ending bits.  Still far above the prequals and ROTJ, not quite as good as the original two.

Had fun as well, one of my small-handful of gripes with the film are was it wasn't as fun as it should have been. Mostly to do with the amount of losses the Resistance/Rebellion suffered - and in the manner those loses were suffered.

39 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Speaking of RotJ, what has the general impression of RotJ been like since it released? Speaking only for myself, I remember liking it just a little bit less than ESB, but I haven't watched any of the OT more than... probably three times? Which is sadly less than I can say for Phantom Menace, which I have to have seen over a dozen times now.

A rough tally would go something like:

Episode 1: 10+

Episode 4/6: 3

Episode 5/8: 2

Episode 2/3/7: 1

Honestly I like Return a lot less than I did as a kid, which was already pretty low to begin with. The prequels were horrible, but I admit that I liked most of the light saber battles.

For me most of what made the original trilogy memorable was the chemistry between Han and Leia and of course the Falcon and X-Wings.

That is one thing TFA and TLJ are missing, there isn't a lot of raw chemistry between actors, and don't get me wrong most (not all) of the acting is very good - but there aren't any dynamic interactions between characters. Rey and Kylo came close, and I can only assume they'll build on that for IX.

-b.

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Speaking of RoTJ.

The perfectly logical explanation on why the Ewoks were able to best Imperial stormtroopers and survive the obvious global disaster of having the death star explode in orbit is that those little f***ers were all force sensitive.  So much so that they were able to hide it from Vader, Luke, and even Palpatine.  They only took casualties to make things "look good" for the other combatants.  If the others knew the true power of the Ewoks, they would all flee in horror from Endor and never return.

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Ewoks know the land better, I think if you had armour on and a small army of bears popped out of the shrub youd be caught off gaurd, then you got the rebels start blasting you aswell. It would be quite confusing. 

Tbh they only had the fight around the bunker entrance, the real battle was won in space.

 

RotJ is my favorite one lol

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Oh, and one other thing I've been meaning to gripe about in regards to the Mel Brooks Space Nazis; you have a 60 km mothership that doesn't have a frigging interdictor field?  Geez, that's canon and old tech too.  The only thing I can't decide is which side is more tactically incompetent, the rebels or the imperials.  (Yeah, I know FO and Resistance... whatever)

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So I groaned through the prequels, especially Phantom Menace. However, I did really enjoy Clone Wars. Haven't seen Rebels yet. I think Clone Wars made the Prequels better. Still not good by any means, but it helps. 

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Last month, I put together this Star Wars top-ten list for my blog, ranking each iteration of the franchise* and my response to it.  Since this thread seems to be expanding into how The Last Jedi fits within the mythological framework of the saga, it seems relevant to this discussion:

26060136_10156132481168243_5630926311188

Despite some terrific world-building, epic visuals and ground-breaking new special effects work, neither Episode II nor III is any good, really.  There are some terrific action sequences, sure, and the John Williams music has never been better, but the dialogue and acting are so distractingly bad that it’s hard to appreciate the stories.  I’ve lumped them together because they’re equally weak (albeit for different reasons).  Attack of the Clones is generally considered worse, although it's easier to ignore; Revenge of the Sith does far more damage to the overall mythology by establishing that the heroic Anakin Skywalker suddenly becomes a Sith Lord and starts slaughtering children because... he had a bad dream.  Inexcusable.

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Liam Neeson’s miraculously fine performance -- and the classic pod race sequence -- save an otherwise preposterous film, one that at least benefits greatly from improved editing and special effects for its current Blu-ray release.

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Spanning six years and 120 episodes, this entirely computer-generated TV show started weak but got better and better as the series progressed, eventually surpassing the prequel trilogy in its epic scope, thematic depth, and occasionally unconventional narrative style.

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Depressingly derivative of every other sci-fi fantasy film made over the last 30 years, this nonetheless provides some engaging new characters and exciting potential for the future of the franchise (much of which was unfortunately squandered by Rian Johnson's follow-up).

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Schizophrenic as hell, this divisive new entry is in equal parts brilliant and banal, thrilling and tedious, satisfying yet infuriating. Lots of wasted potential, but some genuine surprises as well... and for what it lacks in narrative logic, it makes up for in thematic resonance.

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After six years honing their craft on The Clone Wars, the staff now responsible for Rebels has provided consistently entertaining stories, dynamic and evolving characters, and a rich backstory to the original trilogy that deftly incorporates elements from every facet of the mythology.  Despite all expectations, Rebels has turned out to be better than any of us could've hoped for.

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The original Star Wars would place higher on this list if it weren’t for all the awkward changes made for the 20th anniversary “Special Edition,” still the only version available in high-definition.  Controversial editing decisions and twenty year-old CGI have unfortunately damaged the film irrevocably.

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Eschewing the childish humor and mystical elements of most films in the series (but maintaining a strict adherence to the editing style, costume and production design, and the overall aesthetic of the original trilogy), this stand-alone feature is a more hard-edged sci-fi war story intended for a more sophisticated audience.  J.J. Abrams may claim to be a huge Star Wars fan, but Gareth Edwards proves it; Rogue One provides so much fanservice that it's impossible to be disappointed.

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An action-packed thrill-ride that defined the blockbuster tradition of the ‘80s, this classic combines epic mythos and high drama with masterful editing and pacing, weakened only by those few character moments between the action sequences (and again, some regrettable Special Edition "enhancements").

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Everything the series aspires to be, this timeless sequel manages to be poignant and thrilling, fresh and unique, richer and more imaginative than its famous predecessor, and boasts the finest performances of the whole saga... and best of all, isn't ruined by the newly-added elements, either.

* Note that I’ve ignored the Ewok movies, the Ewoks and Droids cartoons, and everything else Disney has rendered non-canon because... it’s crap.

Edited by tekering
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14 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Speaking of RotJ, what has the general impression of RotJ been like since it released? Speaking only for myself, I remember liking it just a little bit less than ESB, but I haven't watched any of the OT more than... probably three times? Which is sadly less than I can say for Phantom Menace, which I have to have seen over a dozen times now.

As someone who doesn't consider themselves a Star Wars fan, I thought Return of the Jedi was a pretty solid flick.  Not the most exciting of the original trilogy (that would have to be A New Hope) because it spent about half of its length aggressively tying up all the loose ends left behind by the conclusion of Empire Strikes Back, but still a respectable film and a worthy payoff for the end of a Hero's Journey story archetype.

The fact that there was a very definite ENDING to the Star Wars story arc is a big part of why I've never been able to bring myself to like any of the Star Wars expanded universe and why I felt the new trilogy's offerings were both decidedly mediocre.  You had a classic story capped with a solid, satisfying ending that the new work utterly invalidates.  There is no great rebirth of democracy in that galaxy far far away, all that noise about a great destiny restoring balance to the force was a load, and the forces of darkness and oppression are at best momentarily inconvenienced by their efforts.

 

 

12 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

The perfectly logical explanation on why the Ewoks were able to best Imperial stormtroopers and survive the obvious global disaster of having the death star explode in orbit is that those little f***ers were all force sensitive.  So much so that they were able to hide it from Vader, Luke, and even Palpatine.

... if so, why did they sh*t a brick when Luke levitates C-3PO and start worshipping him as a god?

 

 

7 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

Oh, and one other thing I've been meaning to gripe about in regards to the Mel Brooks Space Nazis; you have a 60 km mothership that doesn't have a frigging interdictor field?  Geez, that's canon and old tech too.

This came up in a thread on MechaTalk a while back.  What was said there was that the interdictor field (which I only remember from X-Wing vs TIE Fighter) doesn't actually prevent ships from using their hyperdrives... it's just creating conditions that trigger built-in safety features in hyperdrives to force ships back into realspace.  If the safety features are disabled or removed, it's only creating a potentially injurious navigational hazard, which would be a non-issue for a ship hell-bent on suicide anyway.

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10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This came up in a thread on MechaTalk a while back.  What was said there was that the interdictor field (which I only remember from X-Wing vs TIE Fighter) doesn't actually prevent ships from using their hyperdrives... it's just creating conditions that trigger built-in safety features in hyperdrives to force ships back into realspace.  If the safety features are disabled or removed, it's only creating a potentially injurious navigational hazard, which would be a non-issue for a ship hell-bent on suicide anyway.

See, maybe they were really only explained in the EU apparently, but I thought the issue was that hyperdrives in general completely cease to function within a gravity well.  They were always referred to as "gravity well projectors," which if you think about the classic space-time as a bedsheet analogy, is like dropping a synthetic bowling ball in the middle of it.  Basically the hyperspace equivalent of getting your car stuck in the mud, it's not going anywhere no matter how hard you gun the engines.

Maybe that all changed in the canon, but the entire purpose of those interdictor cruisers in the EU was to drag ships out of hyperspace, and keep them there.  I'm sure there are safety features involved to a point, and maybe it would take a custom built hyperdrive to get around them, but it always sounded like using a hyperdrive in a gravity well could have consequences on a "fabric of space-time" level (kind of like what we saw in TLJ).

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10 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The fact that there was a very definite ENDING to the Star Wars story arc is a big part of why I've never been able to bring myself to like any of the Star Wars expanded universe and why I felt the new trilogy's offerings were both decidedly mediocre.  You had a classic story capped with a solid, satisfying ending that the new work utterly invalidates.  There is no great rebirth of democracy in that galaxy far far away, all that noise about a great destiny restoring balance to the force was a load, and the forces of darkness and oppression are at best momentarily inconvenienced by their efforts.

Agreed, which is actually part of the reason why I like TLJ more than TFA, now that I think about it. TFA and Rogue One were unabashed nostalgia trips, whereas TLJ isn't as concerned about restarting the Rebels vs Empire... thing. It just uses that as a necessary backdrop to explore other interesting subjects.

1 hour ago, tekering said:

Liam Neeson’s miraculously fine performance -- and the classic pod race sequence -- save an otherwise preposterous film, one that at least benefits greatly from improved editing and special effects for its current Blu-ray release.

What are the editing and effects changes?

1 hour ago, tekering said:

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I'll be honest, I looked up a couple clips of this show just because I wanted to see what they did with Maul, and his brother(?)'s lackluster lightsaber handling made me dismiss the show then and there.

1 hour ago, tekering said:

Rogue One provides so much fanservice that it's impossible to be disappointed.

Impossible? Only a Sith deals in absolutes... :p

1 hour ago, tekering said:

* Note that I’ve ignored the Ewok movies, the Ewoks and Droids cartoons, and everything else Disney has rendered non-canon because... it’s crap.

Oh, I dunno, I've heard the KOTOR games praised to high heaven, and they're now non-canon. And I remember the old Young Jedi Knights series and having a major crush on... who was it? Tenel Ka? Something like that?

10 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

See, maybe they were really only explained in the EU apparently, but I thought the issue was that hyperdrives in general completely cease to function within a gravity well.  They were always referred to as "gravity well projectors," which if you think about the classic space-time as a bedsheet analogy, is like dropping a synthetic bowling ball in the middle of it.  Basically the hyperspace equivalent of getting your car stuck in the mud, it's not going anywhere no matter how hard you gun the engines.

Maybe that all changed in the canon, but the entire purpose of those interdictor cruisers in the EU was to drag ships out of hyperspace, and keep them there.  I'm sure there are safety features involved to a point, and maybe it would take a custom built hyperdrive to get around them, but it always sounded like using a hyperdrive in a gravity well could have consequences on a "fabric of space-time" level (kind of like what we saw in TLJ).

Isn't it the case that the "new canon" literally only consists of the movies and the Clone Wars show? So any tech that gets explained in supplementary materials, even if it's produced after Disney bought the rights, is only "pseudo-canon" at best? I dunno, the ins and outs of Star Wars canon is arcane and dumb.

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17 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I'm sure there are safety features involved to a point, and maybe it would take a custom built hyperdrive to get around them, but it always sounded like using a hyperdrive in a gravity well could have consequences on a "fabric of space-time" level (kind of like what we saw in TLJ).

Han made it sound like running into a physical object would be a "instant death" type thing, but I think The Force Awakens kind of nixed the idea that hyperdrives in a gravity well would have any major impact on space-time when the Falcon came out of hyperspace only a couple hundred feet above the surface of Starkiller Base.

 

3 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Agreed, which is actually part of the reason why I like TLJ more than TFA, now that I think about it. TFA and Rogue One were unabashed nostalgia trips, whereas TLJ isn't as concerned about restarting the Rebels vs Empire... thing. It just uses that as a necessary backdrop to explore other interesting subjects.

I can't shake the feeling that all that's really changed is the names... like a UC Gundam series, the space nazis are calling themselves something different this time around but it's the same old card-carrying evil.

 

3 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Impossible? Only a Sith deals in absolutes... :p

But "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute... 

Hate is a path to the Dark Side, and prequels Obi-Wan does a suspicious amount of vocally hating things... 

 

3 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

And I remember the old Young Jedi Knights series and having a major crush on... who was it? Tenel Ka? Something like that?

One of the few EU titles I'm familiar with.

KILL IT WITH FIRE. 

WITH.  FIRE.

(Wasn't she the one who built her lightsaber wrong and it blew up in her hand?)

 

3 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Isn't it the case that the "new canon" literally only consists of the movies and the Clone Wars show? So any tech that gets explained in supplementary materials, even if it's produced after Disney bought the rights, is only "pseudo-canon" at best? I dunno, the ins and outs of Star Wars canon is arcane and dumb.

I know they jettisoned the old EU, but haven't they been releasing new tie-in comics and novels?  I remember reading something about them creating a big, detailed backstory for Phasma that ended up being jettisoned into a novel rather than having any part in the films.

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  • azrael changed the title to Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

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