HG and Robotech Debates

[Wanzerfan]

Doug Bendo:

1. [A personal history - not meant to be debatable - just meant to set the record straight - don't debate it because it is against the rules to debate!]

Disclosure to Doug Bendo: I'm a conservative Republican. I voted for George W. Bush ...TWICE! I voted for Ron Paul in the last primaries and grudgingly voted for McCain in the last election because I like Sarah Palin. I also worked for Pat Buchanan back when he ran on the Reform Party ticket. I never voted for a liberal in my life, although I did think the impeachment of Clinton was wrong on constitutional grounds and I respected Howard Dean's candidacy way back when, because he was a Democrat who stood for principles (even if I disagreed with them).

2. [Clarifying opinions]

Just because I believe in the US Constitution and freedom of speech doesn't make me a liberal, and arguing for individual artistic freedoms doesn't make me a "liberal" either.

And arguing that people who create erotic art or art with sexual content are also defended under the Constitution and have the same freedom as your local Pastor doesn't make me a liberal either - unless, you meant to call me a classical liberal - but I doubt YOU are even cognizent of the distinction - so we'll let that slide.

In fact, I now have personally come to believe that labels like "liberal" and "conservative" mean NOTHING. You are either a decent, honest person who believes in human dignity and freedom and who tries to argue the merits of a case and acknowledges that sometimes people of intelligence and good will disagree on reasonable grounds - or you are something else.

Please don't try to label my opinions as "liberal" or any other kind because - especially in this day and age - that's just confusing. That's meaningless. Let's just look at the merits of the issue.

3. [The point]

You aren't replying to the merits of the issue.

Notice how I QUOTE you whenever I reply to you.

Please go back, read my posts, and quote the portions you want to reply to.

Don't think that writing a snappy one paragraph response to the several pages worth of arguments I have made will do anything except demonstrate that you either willfully ignore arguments brought up against you, or that you don't understand them.

When you quote my arguments that everyone can read on the previous pages - and when you make specific counter points to those arguments - I will be more than happy to continue debating you.

Until you reply specifically to those arguments - I'm just going to let them stand. I'm not going to reply to silly points about my "liberal spin."

Pete

Off to work

Man, does doug bendo know how to bait people, or what? And forcing VFTF1 to show his political views in violation of this site's rather loose TOU proves what a prick doug is. (boy, do I wish that there was a "give thy the finga" emoticon, like the old Solaris boards did)

God, I feel bad that doug forced you to do that, VFTF1.

Oh, and if you want to know, I'm as conservative as TED MOTHER-EFFING NUGENT!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

When various Robotech fans gathered to gaze upon such awesome power something expected happened. Seto tried to warn them but they failed to listen.

If only... if only...

I find myself pleasantly surprised by how the mere mention that a RT community free of the censorship and spin that seems to be a standard feature on the mainstream RT sites has brought the reasonable fans out of the woodwork. I've mentioned it all of twice on two different websites and I've already received no less than a dozen e-mails asking me when it'll be open. O_o

[HappyPenguins]

all in favor of banning the douche say Aye!

He's doing nothing but interrupting our pointless discussion

[Gubaba]

all in favor of banning the douche say Aye!

He's doing nothing but interrupting our pointless discussion

So, if you were a Robotech episode, which episode would you be? And why?

[HappyPenguins]

So, if you were a Robotech episode, which episode would you be? And why?

I'd be Khyron's Revenge because I'm a vengeful person

[Einherjar]

So, if you were a Robotech episode, which episode would you be? And why?

"Call to Arms," because even in that universe, everyone has to acknowledge what Minmei contributed to the show, before people derailed her. Because if they ever did a remake, that part would most likely be taken out for something more... conventional. When I say conventional, I mean more bloody and less thought provoking.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[dougbendo]

VFTF1, I am going to be as plain as I can about this. I don’t care about your history in anyways shape or for until I decide to take an interest in it. Second I will debate you the way I wish to debate you and I will do it robotech style. I have better things to do with my time then type out 10 pages worth of correction do to your “progressive” views. I was thinking this morning about what I labeled you last night and I realized I was in error. Your not a liberal but a progressive with the arguments you tried to agents me.

All you did in your first round agents me it try to put me in a corner and label me. By the snappy reply I gave and your reaction to it I can see you feel your plan didn’t work. Part of your argument is to split hairs between child pornography and art. However you seen to miss that point of what pornography is. Witch it is sexual entertainment… anyone will tell you that. Doesn’t even mean that there has to be a action that is taken like a “blowjob” as you put in one of your post. But it could be something that is implied and is ment to cause stimulation the a visual concept that goes beyond that of the norm in the climate of the context that everything is being put in.

Case in point if you like to go back to ranka we can. She is singing her song at there heighten state with clothes on. Then they just for some reason have to come off. The reason why the clothes come off VFTF1 is to entertain you the viewer. They are showing her skin for means of entertainment. There is nothing artistic about it. Because if it was artistic then the concept of the art would have changed in a way that would have let the viewier know this has a symbolic meaning. The kind of meaning you like to give ranka’s skin shots.

Now if you like we can look at other works by the creators of macros and find onther skin sence as well. You can find all sorts of sexual undertones that in are in the macross univers and other works by then same people that do nothing to advance the story. Orguss comes to mind and long with macross 2 lovers agen. I don’t even what to go into orguss and the Lisa Hayes seen. The you have Ishtar from macross 2 lovers agen and just look at the intro. Ishtar clothes just being shredded way for no reason. Just “yu I think it be some great skin footage here!” These guys simply have a history of this poo and this time they went to far.

But because it is macross and because it is anime it is ok? Oh thats right because its not a “real child” “real human child” you can keep your mind at ease and with the status quoe of explotaion of young “animated children”. I mean keep in mind are we supposed to like macross for the mecha? Why do I need to see ranka naked anyway? Why do you VTVF1 need to see ranka naked? I know you said it was your validation that she was conftable with herself as a singer. Also because she was naked she was able to save the univers.

TFVF1 how does being naked have anything to do with how conftable ranka is as a person. There are a ton of way to show that ranka has acquired her new self confidence and baring it all on screen simply doesn’t show that. Plus who is macross ft audience. What is the age group and what would be the best way to get the point across that she is now ok with who she is? So do you still going to tell me that the nude shots of a child are best way to get a point of confidence across to a group of mecha fan boys? Face it they did it for your “skin fetish”. It a bad habit that they have in anime when it comes to women. In anime we all know the fans like to “taboos”. But in this case it wasn’t just a taboo.

So tell me TFVF1 what kind of conversation would you have with a child about this. He is expecting to see some cool mecha action but in the mist of his excitement he gets an overly micromanaged love triangle and then some screen shot of a naked minor! Tell me how would you explain it to a teen? The mere fact that you would have to go to such an extent to explain this to a child or a teen that should be able to see something a gain a proper unquestionable excitement with some progressive bs that you came up so that you just don’t look lake the creepy old guy off of family guy mean one of 2 things. Either the writers did a really shitty job with the way they went about everything. Or it could be that you have the mind set of that creepy old guy in family guy. But I Going to say its both and be fair to you about it.

I was all about letting my younger bro’s see macross ft after seeing gundam 00. Witch story wise is as almost as rehashed as macros ft. But the nude sene killed it. Now it is true that I could edit it out and let them enjoy it. But I also have to look at fact that there are still more disturbing sense and concepts in macros ft. But I don’t even care to get into those.

As for seto. I can see why he ventures off from macross world to the robotech forums. Its really because he is nothing here but looks to create his own following by getting jaded robotehc fans. Why you people in the macross world want to claim seto as an “expert” when it comes to macross is beyond me. But I also have to look at the fact that your all macross groupies as well. The fact that you don’t mind using combat mecha as musical instruments to try to fight alien invaders says a lot. Now you are praising mecha vs bugs and who stops the bug? The naked little girl and her song! I could go on and on about the bs that you guys say about robotech fans but the bottom line is we just aren’t as crazy as you people.

[Jasonc]

Actually, he might describe this as a victory on his show as he did for what happened in rtx. What did he manage to do since he started posting here? Umm... showed how superior he is compared to us by not actually achieving anything...?

I hope he does say that he came on here and claimed victory, if for Dougbendo, getting schooled is a victory. That fact that he did nothing but get put in his place, to him, may be a good lesson for him, and maybe that is a victory. It's also a victory here, because we don't really have to link his site anymore to show what an empty void of nothingness his show is. It's all here to read.

One thing I believ about these supposed Robotech fans, is that they aren't really fans at all. I believe they've just latched onto something, they feel, will give them a good 15 minutes of fame. Everytime the mods (representatives of HG) and the self proclaimed #1 fan of Robotech speak, 95% of the time it's either about HG politics and legal debate they don't understand, or it's about not knowing the difference between artistic representation from child pornography. The other 5% is throwing the disclaimer of being a fan, and banning or lashing out at people that don't agree with them. In putting what is observed together, it leads to the question, how much validity should be put into what is said? What does that say about HG and the people they put their trust in? So far, all I've seen is more division than bringing their fanbase together, and yet, they are over here. If I was someone who only posted in this thread, and had no clue about Macross, what it represents, who the characters are and about the product, I don't think I'd really be much of a fan, if one at all. That's why I think most of the people who just cause trouble aren't even Robotech fans. I'd feel that way about anyone, but it says a lot when this is coming from part of HG, and someone who proclaims to be the #1 Robotech fan.

Sorry Pete, that's probably why you haven't gotten your answer you've been asking for a long time now. Most of the Robotech fans I know that seem to really be fans keep out of the drama. They talk about the show, things they like, things they don't, but they keep it consistent, and don't wrap their fan existence in garbage claims and politics.

Anyways, Seto, in your post up above, you were asking about a stable CMS...Um, what is that? Since I know it's not the CMs corp toys you're talking about, I'm at a loss. Let me know, maybe I can help.

[Gubaba]

Anyways, Seto, in your post up above, you were asking about a stable CMS...Um, what is that? Since I know it's not the CMs corp toys you're talking about, I'm at a loss. Let me know, maybe I can help.

Heh. That's what I thought at first, too. I was wondering...why does Seto want a Legioss?

[Seto Kaiba]

Heh. That's what I thought at first, too. I was wondering...why does Seto want a Legioss?

Just my luck there'd be another commonly used acronym for CMS... I'm looking for a content management system for a website, though I won't say no to a Legioss either. Basically, I'm building a replacement for the now-essentially-defunct RobotechX, and I'd like to give it a decent set of features including support for fanfics and fanart galleries and blogs and whatnot.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

Just my luck there'd be another commonly used acronym for CMS... I'm looking for a content management system for a website, though I won't say no to a Legioss either.

I used to have one of the old Gakken Legioss toys (the green one...I got it before New Generation started airing, or else I would've gotten the blue one), but the arm fell off. I think I still have it somewhere if you want it, though.

[Uxi]

I was explaining the catastrophe to a friend when I explaining the difference between Macross and Robotech (spawned by my watching Macross: Frontier). He asked why HG and Big West just didn't make a deal since right now BW effectively gets zero of the international pie and HG isn't producing anything but crap. There should be synergy there, but there isn't....

[Gubaba]

I was explaining the catastrophe to a friend when I explaining the difference between Macross and Robotech (spawned by my watching Macross: Frontier). He asked why HG and Big West just didn't make a deal since right now BW effectively gets zero of the international pie and HG isn't producing anything but crap. There should be synergy there, but there isn't....

I think the rationale is easy to understand (BEAR IN MIND: THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING ON THE SITUATION. I HAVE NO CONTACTS AT BIG WEST, SO I MAY BE COMPLETELY OFF.)

I suspect that BW simply doesn't want to work with HG, having been unhappy with their track record. Macross II was licensed to U.S Renditions, Macross Plus to Manga Entertainment. Then HG claimed that they owned the rights to all Macross sequels (although they've stopped doing that since), essentially calling Big West's deals with other companies fraudulent.

If someone calls you a fraud, and then tries to maneuver things so that you HAVE to work with them (and you didn't like what they did with your work previously), would you be willing to make them your partner? Most people would decline that offer, I think.

[David Hingtgen]

I think I'll let Azrael or Roy or even Exo have the honor/pleasure...

But go ahead and keep posting, those who keep it up will be banned in addition.

[dougbendo]

Jasonc why don't you go cry to tom about me. tell him how much of a bad boy I have been over in the macross world. Keep in mind though I am know where near as back handed as you tried to be with HG before you got busted for everything. Now look at you nothing more then a has been. trying to stay relovent in macross world because that is all you have now. If you were half the greatness that you like to believe you were you'ed stop trying to us people like seto, jt and others to get your points of hate for hg across. Yes Yes Yes Jasonc I already know HG disowned your ass. Why do you have to cry about it some much. Jasonc this number one robotech fan has hundreds of people that lesson to me a week. I have more lessoners then i better this sight has active subscribers. You and all the poo with your dealings along with tom along with your ex-freinds at HG haven't even come close the anything I done in they way of people wanting to devote 2hours of there time week after week to what I have to say. So until you pump the numbers I got and can show it on the same field I say it be best for you to just shut up and get to work on your boy jt. Its looking like his show is going a little dry. I think your just going to have to be a better sponsor of your macross outlet or something.

[RDClip]

Something i am wondering about. Does Toynami have exclusive rights when it comes to RT toys? I ask because if so and the LAM comes out, will Toynami be the ones making the toys for it?

[Robelwell202]

Something i am wondering about. Does Toynami have exclusive rights when it comes to RT toys? I ask because if so and the LAM comes out, will Toynami be the ones making the toys for it?

It would seem that that is, indeed, the case... They've been putting out RT stuff for quite some time... at least ten years.

[Seto Kaiba]

I used to have one of the old Gakken Legioss toys (the green one...I got it before New Generation started airing, or else I would've gotten the blue one), but the arm fell off. I think I still have it somewhere if you want it, though.

Eh, I'll pass thanks... on those rare occasions I spring for a non-book collectible I usually aim for new or like-new quality unless it's absolutely dirt cheap like all those Robotech comics I picked up for $0.25 an issue at a garage sale a few years back.

I suspect that BW simply doesn't want to work with HG, having been unhappy with their track record.

[...]

If someone calls you a fraud, and then tries to maneuver things so that you HAVE to work with them (and you didn't like what they did with your work previously), would you be willing to make them your partner? Most people would decline that offer, I think.

Ever since I first started digging into it, I've always thought that it was a mixture of Big West not wanting to work with Harmony Gold because of their past encounters and Big West seeing the American anime industry as too insignificant, in terms of the potential profits, to warrant either taking Harmony Gold to court or forming a partnership with them.

Something i am wondering about. Does Toynami have exclusive rights when it comes to RT toys? I ask because if so and the LAM comes out, will Toynami be the ones making the toys for it?

I remember hearing one of the RT.com moderators (I forget which) saying something about Warner having also gotten the toy rights to the live-action movie in the bargain, though that may just have been idle speculation. As to whether they have exclusive rights to produce toys based on the animated Robotech series, I don't know if they actually have an exclusive contract or if they're just consistently the cheapest possible option. In terms of their product quality, the latter seems likely.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Dangard Ace]

I'm making a list,

checking it twice,

gonna find out who's naughty or nice.

Banhammer's coming to town.

[azrael]

I think the rationale is easy to understand (BEAR IN MIND: THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING ON THE SITUATION. I HAVE NO CONTACTS AT BIG WEST, SO I MAY BE COMPLETELY OFF.)

I suspect that BW simply doesn't want to work with HG, having been unhappy with their track record. Macross II was licensed to U.S Renditions, Macross Plus to Manga Entertainment. Then HG claimed that they owned the rights to all Macross sequels (although they've stopped doing that since), essentially calling Big West's deals with other companies fraudulent.

...

I don't think we can speak for BW, but I'm sure US Renditions and Manga Entertainment were doing the "WTH is this *bleep*"-reaction. But I think Seto is closer to the mark, BW and Bandai probably don't see much $$$ coming their way if they go international. Legal stuff would probably be the least of their concerns. Return investment is probably the overriding issue to legal woes. Frontier probably didn't help itself by including music from SDFM, DYRL?, and 7. Even if it was just a few songs, that's still royalties. And with things as they are with the recession, I'm sure pulling money for licensing is tight enough as it is.

I remember hearing one of the RT.com moderators (I forget which) saying something about Warner having also gotten the toy rights to the live-action movie in the bargain, though that may just have been idle speculation. As to whether they have exclusive rights to produce toys based on the animated Robotech series, I don't know if they actually have an exclusive contract or if they're just consistently the cheapest possible option. In terms of their product quality, the latter seems likely.

I'm fairly sure toy rights would be in that deal. As Yogurt would say "Merchandising!" HG would get a cut of the profits from the deal.

[anime52k8]

I'm making a list,

checking it twice,

gonna find out who's naughty or nice.

Banhammer's coming to town.

I'm just here to watch the show and eat some popcorn,

[Seto Kaiba]

Legal stuff would probably be the least of their concerns. Return investment is probably the overriding issue to legal woes. Frontier probably didn't help itself by including music from SDFM, DYRL?, and 7. Even if it was just a few songs, that's still royalties.

Yeah, I'd say just the issues with music licensing would be enough to put most potential licensees off of the idea of distributing Macross 7 and Macross Frontier stateside. Didn't someone at AnimEigo (I think it was Robert Woodhead) say something to that effect... that music licensing was likely going to be the main stumbling block with licensing Macross 7 for distribution outside of Japan?

[Graham]

I seldom if ever check this thread, due to the often long-winded nature of the posts. However, after receiving 4 'report this thread' PMs in short order, I decided to see what all the full was about.

Thanks guys, I had to read through 10 pages of extremely long posts. I now officially have a migrane!

Prior to catching up on the posts, I had no idea who or what a 'Bendo' was, or why members here seem to be so bothered by his views. "If ya' don't like what someone says, ignore them", has always been my motto.

Graham

[Keith]

I seldom if ever check this thread, due to the often long-winded nature of the posts. However, after receiving 4 'report this thread' PMs in short order, I decided to see what all the full was about.

Thanks guys, I had to read through 10 pages of extremely long posts. I now officially have a migrane!

Prior to catching up on the posts, I had no idea who or what a 'Bendo' was, or why members here seem to be so bothered by his views. "If ya' don't like what someone says, ignore them", has always been my motto.

Graham

Did you at least watch that awesome Macross Anthology video? (I agree where's the Macross II).

[hutch]

I couldn't get through the entire post, but I am dying to know how you debate "in robotech style"?

[Saraphys]

I couldn't get through the entire post, but I am dying to know how you debate "in robotech style"?

Close your Eye's...

Cover your Ear's...

And say whatever you want, under the dillusional idea that everything your saying is true, and no-one else knows anything about it.

The "Robotech Style" of debating.

[VFTF1]

REPLY TO DOUG BENDO PART 1

Sorry I was away for a while. I was busy taking the "ex" out of "ex-girlfriend."

Now, back to Doug Bendo - who is quoted below.

ALL TEXT IN QUOTE BOXES IS FROM DOUG BENDO

This Response is split into parts because the Forum informed me it was too long for one post.

First, I do appreciate that at least you're writing longer posts rather than just a one paragraph response. As such, I'll respond in kind, albeit I still think it would be better to just reference specific quotes, the way I'm doing it. Anyways - here goes:

Second I will debate you the way I wish to debate you and I will do it robotech style.

You have every right to debate however you want. But don't you think it makes things easier for all of us to quote the specific argument you're reffering to - otherwise it's easy to misunderstand eachother. Of course, I personally have nothing against labeling your debate style "robotech style" - it is Robotech debate style: sloppy. But - ok. Your choice.

I have better things to do with my time then type out 10 pages worth of correction do to your “progressive” views.

That's a cop out - but even worse: it's illogical.

Doug - if you have 10 pages worth of amazing legal and philosophical analysis that will shut me up, prove I'm wrong and end the debate - then wouldn't it be more productive for you to spend some time writing 10 pages worth of perfect proofs that would be absolutely irrefutable - and then you would never have to debate this subject again.

If you don't write 10 pages worth of corrections to my views - then in the long run you will waste more of your time, because you will keep having to write these mini-rebutles that you're coming up with - which don't satisfactorally deal with the issue.

Therefore, if you're worried about economizing your time - might I suggest that you give a coherent 10 page argument that is so emminently logical that it will be impossible to refute, and save yourself the future wasted time taken on responses which are not exact, detailed and logical?

But of course - we know that this won't happen.

Why?

Because the fact is - you couldn't come up with two pages worth of coherent arguments, let alone 10. Thus, the "I won't waste my time" line is just a cop out, sadly, and not a misunderstanding of the economization of time.

I was thinking this morning about what I labeled you last night and I realized I was in error. Your not a liberal but a progressive with the arguments you tried to agents me.

I am a liberal insofar as "liberal" means "believer in Freedom."

I am a conservative insofar as we are conserving a culture of freedom.

I am a progressive insofar as I think it's good to improve things.

I am a reactionary insofar as I think it's not good to favor the new over the old simply because it's new

I am...

Do you see where this is going?

Let's just deal with the arguments and not the labels. Labels are used by political parties to get people to think in simple stereotypes and mindlessly hate the other side. That's what my experience has taught me, and that's why I stay away from labels.

All you did in your first round agents me it try to put me in a corner and label me. By the snappy reply I gave and your reaction to it I can see you feel your plan didn’t work.

I agree. Your snappy reply proved that all my efforts to build a logical, reasonable argument - and all my hopes to engage you in a reasonable debate with such arguments (note I say that I hoped to engage you in a reasonable debate - NOT that I hoped to convince you to accept my opinions) - all of those efforts I made were met with a response from you which can be summarized as "well you're a liberal!"

So yes - my plan of trying to have a reasonable debate didn't work.

I agree.

Part of your argument is to split hairs between child pornography and art.

Split hairs you say?

Let's be clear about something: Unless I a misinformed, your position is that the scene in question from Macross Frontier consists child pornography, and therefore by definition is illegal. By definition - it is also punishable by 20 years or more in prison depending on the state and statute we're talking about.

So forgive me for "splitting hairs" when the issue is whether Macross fans should all be thrown in jail.

If we're just talking about tastes - then there's no reason to have this debate. If you just say "I Doug Bendo think Macross Frontier is over-sexualized trash" - then ok. Fine. I disagree, and everybody has an opinion and we can discuss it in the sense of just learning other people's impressions.

However - if you're going to argue that the content is illegal - then you're basically saying that all of us should be thrown in jail.

You're also publically admiting to watching something which, in your opinion, is illegal child pornography, which puts you in a bit of a bind - but let's let that slide.

The point is - what you call 'splitting hairs' is exactly what people do when they try to demonstrate that something should not be illegal.

You Robotech people have a very strange way of doing things. Most fans from other anime or other cartoons, movies etc just have opinions. They might even disagree very vehemently, but they don't want the other fandom labeled illegal. They don't think it's a good idea to try to shut down people who disagree with them by trumpeting that the other guys are "illegal."

However, with Robotech fans there is a strange pattern:

On the websites you control - if anybody disagrees with you effectively - BAN!

On general issues of differences of opinion and interpretation - your opponents are ILLEGAL!

This is kind of like Harmony Gold who, whenever they see that another company is building a superior toy to the stuff Toynami puts out, and people are buying and selling it - tries to make it a legal issue.

Point: I think you need to either learn the difference between tastes and matters of law, or - if you are serious in wishing to pursue the argument that there is illegal content in a world renowned television series from Japan that a lot of us happen to like very much then accept the fact that people will in fact "split hairs" about a great many things trying to convince you that you are wrong.

However you seen to miss that point of what pornography is. Witch it is sexual entertainment… anyone will tell you that. Doesn’t even mean that there has to be a action that is taken like a “blowjob” as you put in one of your post. But it could be something that is implied and is ment to cause stimulation the a visual concept that goes beyond that of the norm in the climate of the context that everything is being put in.

You know what Pornography is? You have perfect knowledge of the "norm" and the "climate of the context that everything is being put in" ?

Congratulations - you're wiser than the majority of judges that sit on the Supreme Court. Why - you are so wise, that I think you can apply for a job with the Taliban. They also know what pornography is, have perfect knowledge of the "norm" and the "climate of the context that everything is being put in." That is why they have done such a great job keeping women in potato sacks and making sure that every pretty girl with quickly be equalized with their grandmother's looks via a vile of acid.

Come on - let's be serious here Doug.

Pornography is a catch all that means nothing. Child Pornography is ONLY illegal because there is a presumption that a child is not fully aware of what he or she is doing and that adults exploiting the child for sexual purposes are violating the child's freedom to choose.

You DO understand that teenagers having sex is not illegal? Yes?

You do understand that the "illegal" part of Child Pornography is the part where children are presumed to be forced against their better judgment (which the law presumes a child to lack) to take part in sex acts without their concent (since it is assumed that a minor is not mature enough to understand what he or she is concenting to).

You do realize that the basis of all sexual criminal offenses is a VIOLITION OF THE WILL OF A ANY HUMAN BEING. It is NOT the act of sex?

You argue from a perspective which seems to suggest that you know what Pornography is (which is actually not easy to define at all in contradistinction to erotic art or sexualized art), AND that the REASON Child pornography is illegal is the "pornography part."

Actually no.

It's the "child" part that's illegal. Kind of like: Child drinking, Child gambling, Child labor, Child.... see the pattern here Doug? Drinking, Gambling, labor and all other things that adults are allowed to do are things that free people can do and take responsibility for and do because they choose to do it - And nobody has the right to tell them not to.

Children, the assumption goes, are not mature enough to understand what is happening and therefore cannot do these things until they grow up.

Now - there is a legitamite debate about the extent to which the "legal age" for various things should be lowered.

For example - in the United States, an 18 year old can legally kill foriegners in a war and fly nuclear bombers. But he can't have a beer. He can vote on which person should be trusted to be in charge of a nuclear arsenal, but he can't go to a club and get smashed on vodka and dance to club music.

There is actually also debate about whether or not Children have rights via their parents - there have been cases of children suing their parents.

These are all debatable issues because there is no scientific basis for stating that maturity and conscious volition start at the age of 18 or 21 or 14.

There IS a common sense regocnition that little kids can't think for themselves and therefore have special protection.

Ironing out the details - "splitting hairs" as you call it - is exactly what free democratic people do.

But I guess if you live in Harmony Gold/Robotech world - then all you need to do is ban people who disagree and harrass and mob people with threatening letters telling them to stop selling toys which happen to be better than the ones' you're peddling.

Got it.

Pete

(Continued Below)

[VFTF1]

REPLY TO DOUG BENDO PART II

Doug Bendo is Quoted in the Quote Tages

Case in point if you like to go back to ranka we can. She is singing her song at there heighten state with clothes on. Then they just for some reason have to come off. The reason why the clothes come off VFTF1 is to entertain you the viewer. They are showing her skin for means of entertainment. There is nothing artistic about it. Because if it was artistic then the concept of the art would have changed in a way that would have let the viewier know this has a symbolic meaning. The kind of meaning you like to give ranka’s skin shots.

Now if you like we can look at other works by the creators of macros and find onther skin sence as well. You can find all sorts of sexual undertones that in are in the macross univers and other works by then same people that do nothing to advance the story. Orguss comes to mind and long with macross 2 lovers agen. I don’t even what to go into orguss and the Lisa Hayes seen. The you have Ishtar from macross 2 lovers agen and just look at the intro. Ishtar clothes just being shredded way for no reason. Just “yu I think it be some great skin footage here!” These guys simply have a history of this poo and this time they went to far.

Yes - we can "go back to Ranka" - sure. But I would really love it if you responded to Save's one sentence rejoinder to your entire argument, featuring a scene from an episode of Robotech with someone's butt during a shower.

But - ok - let's talk about Ranka.

First - I am willing to admit that my opinion of why she is shown naked is wrong. It's just an interpretation. Interpretations actually don't even have to be "wrong or right." Look at a sun set - to a man driving home from a long day at work, it's meaningless. To two lovers sitting outside hugging and enjoying it - it's romantic. So - which is it? Is the sunset meaningless or romantic? It's both - depending on the person looking at it.

You say:

"If it was artistic then the concept of the art would have changed in a way that would have let the viewier (sic) know this has a symbolic meaning."

Really??

So - in Doug Bendo Land - when you go to the Opera, a great big NEON SIGN needs to flash above the stage that says "SYMBOLIC MEANING!! WARNING!! SYMBOLIC MEANING!!" and when we watch something on TV, there need to be subtitles (or a voice over) that screams out "SYMBOLIC MEANING IN 20 SECONDS! BRACE YOURSELVES!"

I don't think so.

Art is not science - it doesn't "work" that way. In fact - just as it is impossible to precisely define "pornography" for the purpose of law, it is impossible to define "art."

What IS possible is to define "freedom of speech" for the purpose of law - and part of the reason freedom of speech is protected is because intelligent people acknowledge that it is impossible to come to definitive conclussions about controversial things, and that it is better for there to be tolerance and open debate instead of giving the State the power to put people in jail for their private tastes and opinions.

One would think that this concept would be vaguely familiar to someone living in the United States.

Secondd of all - what "Lisa Hayes in Orguss" ???

There is no Lisa Hayes in Orguss.

That picture is a reference to the Macross character MISA HAYESE. You do understand that, don't you? You do understand that the creators of Orguss were not sitting there thinking "And now - let's give a shout out to that babe from the Harmony Gold cartoon Robotech" ??

That was a reference to Macross and to Misa.

You do understand the difference between the two, don't you?

But because it is macross and because it is anime it is ok? Oh thats right because its not a “real child” “real human child” you can keep your mind at ease and with the status quoe of explotaion of young “animated children”. I mean keep in mind are we supposed to like macross for the mecha? Why do I need to see ranka naked anyway? Why do you VTVF1 need to see ranka naked? I know you said it was your validation that she was conftable with herself as a singer. Also because she was naked she was able to save the univers.

First of all - who ever said that "we supposed to like macross for the mecha" -- Doug Beno? Yes. But anybody else? No. And even if someone else said it - why is this true?

What does this mean? We are supposed to like Macross for the mecha? Huh? Sure - there's some great Mecha in Macross, but there's also a great story, and great characters, and great music - there's a ton of stuff to like - not just Mecha.

Second of all - yes, because it is not a "real child" it is ok - legally.

But fine - let's also discuss it as an issue of taste, culture, morality and propriety.

Is it tasteful? Yes - clearly Ranka is not "a child" insofar as her character is concerned. Ranka can sing, Ranka can captivate the attention of an audience, Ranka is IN LOVE with Alto, Ranka can stand up in the cockpit of a fighter plane, flying into a battle zone and sing.

I think given all of this - Ranka can also have sex and kiss people if she wants to.

In a fictional world where we accept that the character of Ranka has all of the traits that she has - then of course she can also be a woman. And of course guys can also wish they had a girlfriend like her.

Is it moral and proper to present such a character?

I say yes - first of all - plenty of teenagers are smart, mature and courageous. And they also fall in love. (Here I'll note that you failed to tell me if my memories of my high school sweetheart constitute "child pornography" and "pedophilia" since I happen to remember he as a beautiful under-age girl that I was sexually active with when I was also under 18. Is it not clear to you that now, being 30 - I still remember her in my mind as a 17 year old girl? And therefore as a 30 year old, I apparently have memories of a "child pornographic nature" in my head - if you're rigid world view is correct.

But I of course don't believe that. I think that we need to be careful applying rigid stereotypes.

Anyways - so - for you - it's ok for a little boy like Luca to fly a murder machine (mecha) and kill other beings and be exposed to war where people are dying bloody deaths all around him.

But - for Ranka to be smart, an excellent singer, an ambitious character and a young woman with budding emotions who is in love and curious about sex...that's child pornography?

It makes no sense.

TFVF1 how does being naked have anything to do with how conftable ranka is as a person. There are a ton of way to show that ranka has acquired her new self confidence and baring it all on screen simply doesn’t show that. Plus who is macross ft audience. What is the age group and what would be the best way to get the point across that she is now ok with who she is? So do you still going to tell me that the nude shots of a child are best way to get a point of confidence across to a group of mecha fan boys? Face it they did it for your “skin fetish”. It a bad habit that they have in anime when it comes to women. In anime we all know the fans like to “taboos”. But in this case it wasn’t just a taboo.

Why do you assume that the age group of Macross Frontier watchers, if it falls below 18, is not sexually active? I'm sure there are 15 and 16 year old boys and girls out there who are in love with eachother and who also enjoyed watching Macross Frontier and who see themselves in the young characters like Ranka - who are falling in love for the first time, who idolize beautiful and glamorous women, who are shy and unsure about whether they fit the societal norms of physical beauty, who have dreams and ambitions.

You are of course right - there IS a ton of ways to show that Ranka acquired self-confidence without showing her naked. But - this is different from saying that showing her naked is ONE of those ways. Isn't it? Can't it be?

So tell me TFVF1 what kind of conversation would you have with a child about this. He is expecting to see some cool mecha action but in the mist of his excitement he gets an overly micromanaged love triangle and then some screen shot of a naked minor!

Doug - your description fits ROBOTECH.

A child sits down expecting to see cool mecha in action, but in the midst of this excitement gets this crazy love triangle and some girl's naked butt in a shower scene.

Why is it that when a kid sees this in Robotech - it's good, but when a kid sees this in Macross Frontier - you say it's bad?

The mere fact that you would have to go to such an extent to explain this to a child or a teen that should be able to see something a gain a proper unquestionable excitement with some progressive bs that you came up so that you just don’t look lake the creepy old guy off of family guy mean one of 2 things. Either the writers did a really shitty job with the way they went about everything. Or it could be that you have the mind set of that creepy old guy in family guy. But I Going to say its both and be fair to you about it.

I haven't watched Family Guy - so I don't understand the comparisson. But I generally get what you're saying.

Seriously though - if you think that being a pedophile means having a serious talk with a young child about sex, then fine. Don't talk to your children about sex. Let the media, people in school, movie stars, rock bands, peer pressure, and strangers educate them about sex. That's your right.

Me - personally - if I had a kid (and I sort of do insofar as my girlfriend's daughte is my step-daughter) - then you bet I'd try to educate her - not just about sex, but about men and women and relationships and love and emotions. Young teenage girls require adult guidance.

If a a young teenage girl sees that an adult reacts to the subject of sex by not discussing it and by insisting that it is taboo and not to be talked about - then they will either seek out information elsewhere (for better or for worse), or they will grow up to be stinted in their ability to live full, normal, healthy and happy lives.

I'm not even talking about basic stuff like sexually transmitted diseases. I'm mainly talking about knowing your own emotions.

If a father is going to teach a boy how to be a man - a father has to teach a boy to know when his dick is talking and when his head is talking. Otherwise the boy's dick is going to get him into a helluvalota trouble. Meanwhile, it would help if the boys' mother was a good example to the boy of how a good woman should be towards a man.

If a father wants to teach a girl how to be a woman - a father has to teach her about boys, about immature boys, about self respect. And a mother needs to teach a girl about how to chose the right guy, about how to deal with men, and about all the stuff I personally don't understand about women and leave to women to talk about amongst themselves.

What's the alternative?

The alternative is kids without families and without guidance.

Is that what you want?

And this brings us back to Macross Frontier: the whole story is - amongst other things - about Ranka maturing into a young woman, falling in love, having to compete for her new love with an older woman, having guilt about her boobs not being big enough as what the "norms" demand - a whole ton of stuff that is very important to young girls.

Your reaction to Macross Frontier is immature because you keep harping on this naked scene at the end as if it was the be all and end all that defined the series, and as if young kids would never get anything else out of it except "ooh!! naked girl!!"

Maybe that's the lesson that they learn at the Bendo Household, where Doug Bendo ignores all of the other interesting stuff and focuses in on the nudity and says "look - that's child pornography! You wanna stay away from that."

Again - ok - you are the king of your castle dude.

But don't say that the law of your house and your personal ethics should be the law of the land and obligate everybody else.

I can see why he ventures off from macross world to the robotech forums. Its really because he is nothing here but looks to create his own following by getting jaded robotehc fans. Why you people in the macross world want to claim seto as an “expert” when it comes to macross is beyond me. But I also have to look at the fact that your all macross groupies as well. The fact that you don’t mind using combat mecha as musical instruments to try to fight alien invaders says a lot. Now you are praising mecha vs bugs and who stops the bug? The naked little girl and her song! I could go on and on about the bs that you guys say about robotech fans but the bottom line is we just aren’t as crazy as you people.

I agree with you Doug. 100% - seriously.

It is true. I as a Macross fan think that the beauty of the human female body and the beauty of songs are more powerful than bullets and nuclear bombs and can change the hearts of enemies who might look different and act different and have different beliefs but who, if given the chance, can live peacefully with their opponents.

I think combat mecha should have their missiles taken out and speaker pods installed and that they should sing to their enemies.

I think that, during World War I, when German and British troops stopped killing eachother on Christmas and instead came together to eat, share cigarrettes and sing Christmas songs - this was better than killing eachother.

But then a Robotech fan in the form of a Commanding Officer came to them and ordered that they get back to the killing - and they stopped singing Christmas Songs praising the Prince of Peace, picked up their guns and smashed their brains.

Now their great grandchildren like to visit eachother's countries and enjoy eachothers food, music and culture.

Real shame, eh?

Pete

[VFTF1]

I'm making a list,

checking it twice,

gonna find out who's naughty or nice.

Banhammer's coming to town.

In the words of Tony Montana (Al Pacino/Scarface movie):

"You can send me here, there, anywhere. There is nothing you can do, that Castro has not done"

Seriously though - I'll accept whatever verdict comes my way. I have tried to write withint the framework of the rules - gotten no warnings yet. I would hope someobody would warn me BEFORE they decide to ban me and give me some guidelines if I'm overstepping the boundaries that you guys have set up.

But - ultimately - it's your call.

Re:Graham's "if you don't want to listen to him, just don't talk to him" etc - that is of course an option. But since lots of ex-Robotech.com people landed in this thread after being banned over there, and have come to realize that even though this is a Macross dedicated sight populated with Macross fans, then they can STILL talk about Robotech in this thread and we Macross fans won't flame them or ban them - then that means this forum is cool.

I just hoped to afford to Doug and Memo the same courteousy that they denied to Seto and other people - namely the courtesy of an open and rigorous debate instead of using moderating powers to just ban them - like they did towards other people.

There's my brief Apologia.

Pete

Edited December 13, 2009 by VFTF1

[Einherjar]

... so, how likely is it that staff or talent from the original SDF Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada would promote the LAM in Asia if anyone paid them handsomely enough to do it? It could really increase the legitimacy and performance of the film in the region, like what happened with Dragonball Evolution, etc. Yes, it's more complicated than other examples, but still.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[Jasonc]

Jasonc why don't you go cry to tom about me. tell him how much of a bad boy I have been over in the macross world. Keep in mind though I am know where near as back handed as you tried to be with HG before you got busted for everything. Now look at you nothing more then a has been. trying to stay relovent in macross world because that is all you have now. If you were half the greatness that you like to believe you were you'ed stop trying to us people like seto, jt and others to get your points of hate for hg across. Yes Yes Yes Jasonc I already know HG disowned your ass. Why do you have to cry about it some much. Jasonc this number one robotech fan has hundreds of people that lesson to me a week. I have more lessoners then i better this sight has active subscribers. You and all the poo with your dealings along with tom along with your ex-freinds at HG haven't even come close the anything I done in they way of people wanting to devote 2hours of there time week after week to what I have to say. So until you pump the numbers I got and can show it on the same field I say it be best for you to just shut up and get to work on your boy jt. Its looking like his show is going a little dry. I think your just going to have to be a better sponsor of your macross outlet or something.

Hmmm, first off, I don't need my friends to come and help me out, especially when it comes to you. You're trying to call me out as if you know everything about what's happened, and again, you show that your little brain doesn't have the capacity to understand much, if anythig at all. I never claimed to be anything more than a Macross fan, and obvious that bothers you, so you grasp at things to try to anger me. But, since you're nothing but a joke, I should thank you for your little comedy bit quoted above. Yo seem to think that Macross is all I have going on in my life. Don't compare my life to yours. I'm sure you'd be sorely disappointed. I don't need to revolve my life around a cartoon to make my life feel valid, unlike you. I don't need to have a podcast of mindless jibberish and pretend I have hundreds of people who "lesson" to me to feel important. You've already been proven a liar with how many people listen to you, so whatever helps you keep living in your feable minded bubble, whatever. I do welcome you to speake more to everyone here. Keep reminding us how ignorant and half-witted you are. We can always use a good laugh, and you've proven your worth as just that.

[Einherjar]

... so, how likely is it that staff or talent from the original SDF Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada would promote the LAM in Asia if anyone paid them handsomely enough to do it? It could really increase the legitimacy and performance of the film in the region, like what happened with Dragonball Evolution, etc. Yes, it's more complicated than other examples, but still.

Dollars are still worth more than the Yen, right? I could see cultural/personal business ethics being a hindrance. With WB, that could mean a lot of money and recognition in the West for a change. But would they really want to share credit with HG, who really did nothing but edit their work? It could mean more business for the staff, as long as they're fine with the stuff they make being used under the Robotech label. But it could get complicated if a contract with specific ground rules was established. They might regret it in the long run.

Would this be considered selling out?

[veffidas]

All right, let us put this to rest: the multiple award-winning (including two Oscars) 1968 movie Romeo and Juliet, featured a nude 15-year-old actress Olivia Hussey with her also nude 17-year-old co-star Leonard Whiting in a scene depicting the morning after a roll in the hay (in Juliet's bed) between Juliet Capulet and Romeo Montague. This scene had real persons, under age 18, in the nude, and, while the scene did produce some ratings controversies, this classic film is not considered child pornography.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063518/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet_(1968_film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_Hussey

http://www.amazon.com/Romeo-Juliet-VHS-Leo.../dp/6300216039/

[VFTF1]

All right, let us put this to rest: the multiple award-winning (including two Oscars) 1968 movie Romeo and Juliet, featured a nude 15-year-old actress Olivia Hussey with her also nude 17-year-old co-star Leonard Whiting in a scene depicting the morning after a roll in the hay (in Juliet's bed) between Juliet Capulet and Romeo Montague. This scene had real persons, under age 18, in the nude, and, while the scene did produce some ratings controversies, this classic film is not considered child pornography.

Whadn't that the year when gay hippies came from space on their space whales and forced everybody to get stoned and make love?

That doesn't count

Pete

[Ghost Train]

All right, let us put this to rest: the multiple award-winning (including two Oscars) 1968 movie Romeo and Juliet, featured a nude 15-year-old actress Olivia Hussey with her also nude 17-year-old co-star Leonard Whiting in a scene depicting the morning after a roll in the hay (in Juliet's bed) between Juliet Capulet and Romeo Montague. This scene had real persons, under age 18, in the nude, and, while the scene did produce some ratings controversies, this classic film is not considered child pornography.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063518/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet_(1968_film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivia_Hussey

http://www.amazon.com/Romeo-Juliet-VHS-Leo.../dp/6300216039/

Lol I remember we had to watch this movie in 9th grade.... in class.