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So, after a second viewing, I can say a lot of the really obvious blunders are still blunderous, but a few of the smaller details do kind of hold up.

I think what I can say for certain is that once the chain of tactical derp ends, the final act of the movie is pretty awesome.

I don't think there's any defense for the chase sequence.  The Resistance not jumping to multiple locations in the first place was tactical suicide, and the First Order could have wiped them out at any time if they had actually tried.  If they'd had the sense to target the escape vessel instead of the base they were abandoning, the movie would've been over.

But just to play devil's advocate, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things.  For one, it looks like they're pushing the angle that the only reason they didn't wipe them out quickly was because Hux and Kylo were ego tripping their way across the universe, wanting to make them suffer.  Second, Hux, Kylo, and Snoke were all clearly obsessed with said infliction of pain and suffering, and two of those three could probably squish you like a bug if you look at them funny.

I honestly can't comprehend that no one in the entire First Order fleet had the mental capacity to destroy a single cruiser trying to run away, but I can almost believe they were all too wimpy to disagree with Space Gollum and Emo Vader while they were enjoying their sadistic rampage.

But let's say for a moment that the setup made sense.  Pretend the movie involved a larger fleet at the start, a larger and better planned battle.  They fight off a few of the smaller destroyers before Snoke pops up and begins obliterating the fleet with the mega destroyer.  Smaller ships begin jumping out, escaping in assorted directions and leaving the main cruiser to the last.  As the rest of the fleet gets blown to bits, the last big cruiser escapes into hyperspace, knowing they're going to be tracked along that vector, and they issue a distress call to the rest of the ships that escaped, saying they're jumping as close to a pre-planned rendezvous point as possible, but they'll have to make a run for the old Rebel base once they fall out of hyperspace.  You can even ramp up the despair factor by having the escaped vessels be the ones that don't respond to Leia's call for help, fully aware that Snoke's ship will be on them once they exit.  Plant Finn, Rose, Poe, and BB-8 on one of the smaller ships with a few other Resistance members who don't want to risk helping them, and they hatch a plan to sabotage Snoke's ship, going to Maz for help, and we can even keep the casino scene intact if we want. 

Leave the plot with Kylo, Rey, and Luke alone, bring Finn, Rose, and BB-8 on board Snoke's ship on cue with their hired help (and included betrayal), and we pick up the plot right as the transports abandon the cruiser.  In the process, you ditch the mutiny subplot and 90% of the silly chase sequence, while keeping the core story intact.

It's just a thought, but there are any number of paths that touch all the key plot points without diverting through piles of dumb decisions.  Even if the force powers are a stretch, I really do like the movie once everyone arrives on Snoke's ship, and the final act of the movie looks, feels, and sounds completely on point.

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After stewing on this for a few days, I've come to the decision that this film is no better and no worse, than The Phantom Menace.  It's got the bones of a good film, and more than a few HOLY ^*%&$$ Moments, but the editing, pacing, and downright moronic side quests just drag it back down.  The film was at least a half-hour too long, and the sheer stupidity of several of the decisions by the cast (and the crew) just suck any kind of enjoyment I have for it.

 

But I'm in the minority it seems and I really enjoyed Luke's whole story.  Mark Hamill, whom I feel wasn't the best screen actor, utterly blew me away here.  I'm just in awe of how fully he imbued Luke with restrained emotion and weary resignation, but didn't lose that spark of hope and legend that he had from the OT.

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You need to rewatch The Phantom Menace... there is no way this film was that bad. Seriously. No way. Remember the kid who accidentally destroys the "roger roger" robot command ship? Midichlorians? Immaculate conception? Every seen that Anakin was in and most that Natalie Portman were in? That film is dreadful start to finish.

This film has problems, lots of them, but people seem to be forgetting all the problems with the other films and there are LOTS of them, even in the OT. Seriously, people are picking this movie apart for military strategy... as if there was lots of genius military strategy portrayed in previous films. Ewoks beat Stormtroopers for fcks sake.

You know what I think would have been a cool twist? If they went straight Sixth Sense with Luke. Rey gets there, she tries to give him the lightsaber but he's like "nah". He holes himself up in some temple and spends minimal time with her basically directing her self-study. She does stuff like catch fish and milk things to survive. Then she leaves. Later Luke does his thing at the rebel base. Then we learn somehow that Luke died shortly after arriving on that planet but now that he has accomplished some redemption he is able to fade away.

Speaking of fading away, here's another problem with the movie. After Snoke dies and Kylo enters the rebel base, he has another moment with Rey. This shouldn't be possible, Snoke was the one that was giving them their moments. This is done because it's important that we now see that Rey is wise enough to close the door on Kylo but it still shouldn't be possible. It doesn't take too much effort though to just make up some hand wavium that says "the force works in mysterious ways" or hypothesize that, whatever Snoke did, it had a bit of lasting power even after his death. Here's another sin (i'm not sure if it's been mentioned), when Luke de-materializes, his robot arm doesn't make a "clunk" sound and drop on the rock. It's as if he took his robot arm with him into the thereafter. 

Here's the fixes this film needed:
1) If they liked the slow chase, they should have made it seem like the rebels could defend themselves against TIE fighters and TIE Bombers. General Hux could have then just said "I'm not going to waste people attacking the ship, we'll just blow them up from afar." I mean, that's not too far from what happens... except the Rebels seem helpless at the time so it doesn't make sense. A better answer would have been to come up with some other macguffin where the rebels were pinned somewhere and knew it was only a matter of time before they were caught... the problem with that is it's exactly like Hoth.

2) Send Rose and Finn directly at the enemy. Introduce Benicio as a person of ill-repute on the planet that hitches a ride with the rebels to escape. He then is reluctantly helping but he really is just trying to save his own skin. When he gets on the First Order ship he sells them out because that's the best way to keep himself safe. They can give him a backstory about selling weapons to both sides so they can still make their social commentary. Without the casino scene this movie can easily be a half hour shorter or would at least feel it and we'd be spared the stupidity of the Maz scene and every stupid thing that happened on that planet. Okay, but how do we get to word of Luke's legend spreading then? Just show a First Order guy telling an arms merchant in a montage that leads to the kids playing somewhere.

3) Leia needed to die... and not just because Carrie Fisher is dead. Geriatric leaders just haven't been fun since Tarkin. Besides, her life seems awful at this point... she made it into her old age running from the Empire. Han at least got to get out for a little while.

Well, that wouldn't have solved everything, but I think that'd solve my major issues.

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3 hours ago, jenius said:

Here's another sin (i'm not sure if it's been mentioned), when Luke de-materializes, his robot arm doesn't make a "clunk" sound and drop on the rock. It's as if he took his robot arm with him into the thereafter. 

Obi-Wan took his boots with him, and Yoda's robes disappeared when he did; if articles of clothing are fair game, why not an artificial limb?

I think the far bigger sin is granting Luke that ability to begin with.  As Revenge of the Sith established (and Liam Neeson's appearance in The Clone Wars confirmed), Qui-Jinn was the only Jedi Master to have discovered the key to life after death.  ROTS wiped out the entire Jedi Order, and none of them faded away or survived as Force ghosts; only Yoda was shown this ability, who then imparted the wisdom to Obi-Wan.  How is it that Luke, with his incomplete (and ridiculously limited) training, managed to do what even Darth Sidious couldn't?  

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6 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

So, after a second viewing, I can say a lot of the really obvious blunders are still blunderous, but a few of the smaller details do kind of hold up.

I think what I can say for certain is that once the chain of tactical derp ends, the final act of the movie is pretty awesome.

 

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I don't think there's any defense for the chase sequence.  The Resistance not jumping to multiple locations in the first place was tactical suicide, and the First Order could have wiped them out at any time if they had actually tried.  If they'd had the sense to target the escape vessel instead of the base they were abandoning, the movie would've been over.

But just to play devil's advocate, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things.  For one, it looks like they're pushing the angle that the only reason they didn't wipe them out quickly was because Hux and Kylo were ego tripping their way across the universe, wanting to make them suffer.  Second, Hux, Kylo, and Snoke were all clearly obsessed with said infliction of pain and suffering, and two of those three could probably squish you like a bug if you look at them funny.

I honestly can't comprehend that no one in the entire First Order fleet had the mental capacity to destroy a single cruiser trying to run away, but I can almost believe they were all too wimpy to disagree with Space Gollum and Emo Vader while they were enjoying their sadistic rampage.

But let's say for a moment that the setup made sense.  Pretend the movie involved a larger fleet at the start, a larger and better planned battle.  They fight off a few of the smaller destroyers before Snoke pops up and begins obliterating the fleet with the mega destroyer.  Smaller ships begin jumping out, escaping in assorted directions and leaving the main cruiser to the last.  As the rest of the fleet gets blown to bits, the last big cruiser escapes into hyperspace, knowing they're going to be tracked along that vector, and they issue a distress call to the rest of the ships that escaped, saying they're jumping as close to a pre-planned rendezvous point as possible, but they'll have to make a run for the old Rebel base once they fall out of hyperspace.  You can even ramp up the despair factor by having the escaped vessels be the ones that don't respond to Leia's call for help, fully aware that Snoke's ship will be on them once they exit.  Plant Finn, Rose, Poe, and BB-8 on one of the smaller ships with a few other Resistance members who don't want to risk helping them, and they hatch a plan to sabotage Snoke's ship, going to Maz for help, and we can even keep the casino scene intact if we want. 

Leave the plot with Kylo, Rey, and Luke alone, bring Finn, Rose, and BB-8 on board Snoke's ship on cue with their hired help (and included betrayal), and we pick up the plot right as the transports abandon the cruiser.  In the process, you ditch the mutiny subplot and 90% of the silly chase sequence, while keeping the core story intact.

It's just a thought, but there are any number of paths that touch all the key plot points without diverting through piles of dumb decisions.  Even if the force powers are a stretch, I really do like the movie once everyone arrives on Snoke's ship, and the final act of the movie looks, feels, and sounds completely on point.

 

I like that. Like I’ve said, just a little more time by these “professional” screen writers would do wonders. If we fans can come up with plausible ways to make an overall script work, with little fuss to their beloved story, but fixes much of the head scratching “mulligans” that they seem to want us to take to make said story work, then why can’t they?

Chris

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4 hours ago, tekering said:

Obi-Wan took his boots with him, and Yoda's robes disappeared when he did; if articles of clothing are fair game, why not an artificial limb?

I think the far bigger sin is granting Luke that ability to begin with.  As Revenge of the Sith established (and Liam Neeson's appearance in The Clone Wars confirmed), Qui-Jinn was the only Jedi Master to have discovered the key to life after death.  ROTS wiped out the entire Jedi Order, and none of them faded away or survived as Force ghosts; only Yoda was shown this ability, who then imparted the wisdom to Obi-Wan.  How is it that Luke, with his incomplete (and ridiculously limited) training, managed to do what even Darth Sidious couldn't?  

Nah, he's been at the most sacred Jedi Temple with unknown texts, and he had his own Temple and adventures before that, I have a no problem with him acquiring that ability.

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14 minutes ago, jenius said:

Nah, he's been at the most sacred Jedi Temple with unknown texts, and he had his own Temple and adventures before that, I have a no problem with him acquiring that ability.

Not to mention he's had the council of three other jedi who already accomplished the same thing.  I thought it was entirely fitting.

Also, are we past the spoiler limit at this point?  Just to double check.

Besides, I seriously want to see Hamill doing his best impression of Ghost Nappa during episode IX, bugging the hell out of Ben.  At this point, I have no expectations as to where that movie's going to go, and seeing that would make the whole thing more than worth it.

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Yes, spoiler tags are no longer required.

52 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Not to mention he's had the council of three other jedi who already accomplished the same thing.

Actually the dialog makes it seem like he hasn't talked to Yoda in a while.

 

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I skimmed through a few comments. I may have misunderstood but I saw a comment alluding to people defending Phantom Menace as an excuse to this horrible display of acting, sans Mark, and writing. Yes that filmed sucked. Really bad. I don't think anyone disagrees. But making the same mistake in the face of it all just justifies how utterly inept the actors, writer/director and company are.

Judging from the trailers Finn in his movie of smash em neon robots looks atrocious. In the the first few minutes of finn, it seems more of the same over the top over reacting over acting. Its just about riding on everyone else's coat tales

Edited by slaginpit
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I think you misread some comments, no one used The Phantom Menace as an excuse, just clarifying that there's no way this film is that bad. It remains the low point, so low that trilogy could never recover. Not sure what you mean about riding coattails since this flick tried desperately to move on from the OT after TFA so everything it could to recapture it.

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9 minutes ago, jenius said:

I think you misread some comments, no one used The Phantom Menace as an excuse, just clarifying that there's no way this film is that bad. It remains the low point, so low that trilogy could never recover. Not sure what you mean about riding coattails since this flick tried desperately to move on from the OT after TFA so everything it could to recapture it.

Ok  I stand corrected. In reference to moving on from OT. Naw it didnt do much of that since FA was a ripoff of ANH and made specific references to that movie with events and characters. What it should have done if they wanted to move away from OT is place it 60 years into the future but then again Lucas had a 9 part trilogy in mind and disney wanted to conclude it as a 9 parter but that is not what they did. Its like they got together and said. How do we sell porgs and get politics into it. 

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I don't get the problem with the Porgs honestly, they were never integral to the plot, they're just birds. People never watch other movies and say Argh, I hate birds!

Now the milking scene, that was... Something.

Edited by jenius
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Jedi need something to drink too!

It ain't the blue stuff Luke's crispy-fried Auntie and Uncle used to give him back in the day, but the green milk will do in a pinch. :p

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If Luke cut himself off from the force during his self imposed exile how is he able to do his pole vault fishing without falling to his death?   When I first saw the scene I thought that's how a Jedi Master would do things but if he's not trying to use the force how can he physically do that?

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4 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

If Luke cut himself off from the force during his self imposed exile how is he able to do his pole vault fishing without falling to his death?   When I first saw the scene I thought that's how a Jedi Master would do things but if he's not trying to use the force how can he physically do that?

Nah. The question(s) you should be asking is, how can you spear fish from a 10+-story cliff and I’m sure the water isn’t THAT clear. And I hope that 60-some inch fish isn’t all for him cuz that thing was like a big tuna. 

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It could be for the frog keepers too. If that's an area where something collects that bigger fish prey on it might be pretty easy to hit something regardless of how clear the water is. It'd be like rays near where fishermen gut fish... They're everywhere and they're not scared. Now, getting it all the way up, that's impressive.

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Not to defend the silly spearing method, but I figured it was probably just because that was the only place those fish could be found near the island.  Either that, or he needed a pole that long and heavy to pierce their scales (which seems mechanically very unlikely).

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1. Empire Strikes Back

2. A New Hope

3. Return of the Jedi

4. Revenge of the Sith

5. Attack of the Clones

6. The Last Jedi

7. The Phantom Menace

8. The Force Awakens

 

Rewatched The Last Jedi......once you remove the many flaws and the "killing off" of Luke (let's face it, he'll be back and hopefully will be allowed to have his character redeemed), the wasted scenes and characters, the ridiculous 2+ hour chase, the dead-ends from TFA, etc.....it is still better than TFA.....TLJ, as bad as it is, still moved the story forward more so than TFA's 30 minutes or so did (whether in the right or wrong direction is currently up for debate)....now that TLJ is out, it reveals what a complete waste of time TFA was.....the director of TLJ apparently felt the same way about it....to very mixed results.....my only concern now is that JJ is back at the director's chair.....I'll will say this much about JJ, he does know how to replicate the feel of Star Wars....

alfred_e_neuman.gif

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:23 AM, jenius said:

You need to rewatch The Phantom Menace... there is no way this film was that bad. Seriously. No way. Remember the kid who accidentally destroys the "roger roger" robot command ship? Midichlorians? Immaculate conception? Every seen that Anakin was in and most that Natalie Portman were in? That film is dreadful start to finish.

 

I really do think this film was as bad as TPM.  Both movies had a few good moments, and occasional bits of genius.  I can honestly say that unlike TPM, I won't be seeing this for a second time in the theatres.  The good bits simply don't out weigh the bad majority.

 

Remember the stupid Admiral whom doesn't communicate with her staff and accidentally sets off a chain of events that kills most of the remaining Rebels, excuse me, "Resistance".  How about how this film utterly invalidates all of Return of the Jedi and brings the setting back to before Empire Strikes Back?  All that awful romance between Rose and Finn? 

 

I disliked TFA for being a basic retreat of ANH, but this whole thing of bringing back an Empire to have Rebels fighting against is just so much worse.  And they did it right in the opening crawl, too!  This whole film has the basic plotting of a bad fanfic.

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Anakin is in TPM for 66% of that film, Rose shows interest in Finn for 2 seconds. The admiral is bad at communications and an unlikable character. The antagonists and their motivations and even machinations in TPM are ill conceived start to finish. Seriously, the film doesn't even make sense if you stop to think about it. What hurt is Naboo feeling? What kind of blockade lets ships right through? How were they even really doing a blockade since they appeared to be guarding a singular spot in space? TLJ is not even in the same ballpark of bad. I mean, I get not liking it's taking the universe backward, that's fair.

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1 minute ago, jenius said:

The antagonists and their motivations and even machinations in TPM are ill conceived start to finish. Seriously, the film doesn't even make sense if you stop to think about it. What hurt is Naboo feeling? What kind of blockade lets ships right through? How were they even really doing a blockade since they appeared to be guarding a singular spot in space?

Those are the biggest sins in that film, and the same sins TFA used as well.  Where is the Republic?  What is the First Order and where does it get its ships/men?  Why is there a Resistance if the good guys won?  So much basic, needed backstory just put to the wayside. 

 

And I just can't forgive the direction the new movies are going in.  At least the Prequels tried something new, even though the end product isn't that great. 

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Finally got to the movies and watched TLJ, I had a good time with it. It is far from a perfect movie with some pacing issues and strange lapses of judgement of the characters but at the end of the days it still is nowhere near how terrible the prequels are.

A question that popped in my mind while watching.

Since hyperspace ramming is a thing couldn't the rebels have done that in ROTJ with the Mon Calamari ships to the Death Star instead of getting blown up running away for no reason? Could shields stop it, I'd assume not with how TLJ showed the main ship and like 5 others getting destroyed. It was cool and all but it kinda ruins space combat since all you need is a few suicide ships (or even droid ships, oooooh) to solve any problem you have, the more mass the merrier. 

 

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Really.. technically speaking, you're dealing with a lot of mass, and a lot of unnecessary sacrifice to do that.  As a last resort?  Yeah, it'll do a lot of damage, but the cost is too high to be something you do when you have a better plan.

Also, no, it wasn't in hyperspace, but you saw how little impact the Executor had on the second Death Star.  The relative mass of what you're hitting is going to probably play a pretty big part in how much damage you manage to do.

 

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2 hours ago, jenius said:

Anakin is in TPM for 66% of that film, Rose shows interest in Finn for 2 seconds.

Speaking of Rose's interest in Finn, I like to think that her kiss is a chaste one, not necessarily one depicting romantic interest. I think it fits more in line with her character arc; she inherits the older sister role from her sister. Of course, it could just be wishful thinking. I don't particularly dig the idea of the romance, but I don't dislike it enough to muster up a strong reaction.

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I've seen it a few times now, its a good movie, but It still doesnt sit well with me having

Luke's first thought was to kill Ben in his sleep. Is this the same Luke who gave Vader a chance,the most hated and ruthless guy in the galaxy..but his first instinct for his sisters son was to kill him.

 

I think it would have been ALOT better if Kylo and those handful of students he had launched an attack on the academy as Luke tried to sway Ben back to the light. 

I can overlook the otherstuff as its just meaningless fluff or serves as a setting because 'Movie'.

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9 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Really.. technically speaking, you're dealing with a lot of mass, and a lot of unnecessary sacrifice to do that.  As a last resort?  Yeah, it'll do a lot of damage, but the cost is too high to be something you do when you have a better plan.

Also, no, it wasn't in hyperspace, but you saw how little impact the Executor had on the second Death Star.  The relative mass of what you're hitting is going to probably play a pretty big part in how much damage you manage to do.

 

Those ships are HUGE. Get one moving near the speed of light at impact and that is a LOT of kinetic energy, which is were the destructive force would come from. It is the same principle as Railgun only at a much larger and faster scale. The Executor was jus slowly “falling” out of orbit to the DS2’s surface. Having ships “suicide” into other targets at or near the speed of light would be devastating to ships, stations, or planets. I think that’s why people have a problem with its use in TLJ. It weaponized Light Speed and makes us wonder why they never used before.

Chris

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3 hours ago, Dobber said:

Those ships are HUGE. Get one moving near the speed of light at impact and that is a LOT of kinetic energy, which is were the destructive force would come from. It is the same principle as Railgun only at a much larger and faster scale. The Executor was jus slowly “falling” out of orbit to the DS2’s surface. Having ships “suicide” into other targets at or near the speed of light would be devastating to ships, stations, or planets. I think that’s why people have a problem with its use in TLJ. It weaponized Light Speed and makes us wonder why they never used before.

Chris

Oh, absolutely, it's a ton of energy.  I wouldn't be surprised if the death stars could have been wiped out with something like that.

What I do wish a little is that they'd adapted more of the EU's established canon about how hyperspace works.  The idea of mass shadows preventing jumps, gravity well generators, and things like Thrawn using interdictor cruisers armed with those to yank fleets out of hyperspace would have pretty much prevented any of the plot nonsense in TLJ from the start.

Also, the EU did have a sort of hyperspace weapon, though being limited to the comics, I don't think the galaxy gun is one of the better known or understood of the empire's superweapons.  I know it launched hyperspace warheads that could destroy everything from individual target cities to whole planets, but I don't think the warheads actually impacted at lightspeed.

As for why it's never been used before.. I feel like the zig-zagging literal rip through space that wiped out most of the escort destroyers is a big reason (frankly, I'm surprised anything survived at all).  While devastating, it looks like the effects might be entirely unpredictable.  Being anywhere near a planet might have distorted the effect even more.

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3 hours ago, Dobber said:

Those ships are HUGE. Get one moving near the speed of light at impact and that is a LOT of kinetic energy, which is were the destructive force would come from. It is the same principle as Railgun only at a much larger and faster scale. The Executor was jus slowly “falling” out of orbit to the DS2’s surface. Having ships “suicide” into other targets at or near the speed of light would be devastating to ships, stations, or planets. I think that’s why people have a problem with its use in TLJ. It weaponized Light Speed and makes us wonder why they never used before.

Yeh, they used it here, why did they not use it elsewhere. Just strap a hyperdrive on an engine and fire away. Hyperspace missile.

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