Uxi Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 lol, I always took it that a Vulan in between the 7 years would be, at best, like Dr Manhattan when he was doing the 1-man 3way with his gf. Plot holes. Anyone talk about the vast improbability of Pine Kirk randomly running away from monsters and stumbling into the cave that Old Nimoy Spock just happened to be marooned in? If this was a different universe, you could maybe shrug and say it was the Force or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 That's not really a plot hole, it's more of deus ex machina. Actually, it's exactly a deus ex machina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
areaseven Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Plot holes. Anyone talk about the vast improbability of Pine Kirk randomly running away from monsters and stumbling into the cave that Old Nimoy Spock just happened to be marooned in? If this was a different universe, you could maybe shrug and say it was the Force or something. I don't know about you guys, but I was expecting to see a Wampa in the ice cave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Meh, much of those shared plot points easily describes plot of the Master and Commander movie/book. Anime isn't exactly the most original story telling either. You are right, it goes back to really old storytelling and traditional tales... Taksraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 lol, I always took it that a Vulan in between the 7 years would be, at best, like Dr Manhattan when he was doing the 1-man 3way with his gf. Plot holes. Anyone talk about the vast improbability of Pine Kirk randomly running away from monsters and stumbling into the cave that Old Nimoy Spock just happened to be marooned in? If this was a different universe, you could maybe shrug and say it was the Force or something. Or the improbility of Scotty being exiled there by Admiral Archer for transporting his beagle to who knows where? And Scotty was sopposed to be the Miracle Worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VF-19 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Or the improbility of Scotty being exiled there by Admiral Archer for transporting his beagle to who knows where? And Scotty was sopposed to be the Miracle Worker. Well, Admirals do have that power... Besides, this is Scotty before he became the Miracle Worker. He did save the ship in the end of the film, so he's growing into the reputation. Besides, he gave his secret of how he's a miracle worker away in Star Trek 3. He just overinflates his repair-time estimates! Oh, and yes, I saw the movie. In IMAX no less. It was 2 hours of mega win and stupid amounts of awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Focker Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I was gonna see it in IMAX but they raised the ticket up by $3 from a year ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Writer Roberto Orci cited Star Wars (1977) as an influence in giving this film a epic feel: "I wanted to feel the space, to feel speed and to feel all the things that can become a little bit lost when Star Trek becomes very stately - although I love that about it." The film pays homage to Star Wars (1977) in the Cantina scene, in the action sequences, and particularly in Kirk and Spock's relationship ("Han Solo wasn't friends with anyone when the journey started, then..."). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 You are right, it goes back to really old storytelling and traditional tales... Taksraven I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. But the first master and commander book precede Yamato by 4 years. But besides that, Captain Kirk is easily a type of King David from the the Bible, young genius leader, untested and at odds with the dominant paradigm. In this movie particularly Kirk and Spock's relationship mirrors David and Jonathan's relationship. In the Biblical story, David is chosen over Jonathan (the rightful heir to the thrown) by Samuel the Prophet and Jonathan accepts David as the rightful ruler. Pretty closely matches the plot, Spock (Samuel) chooses Kirk (David) to command the Enterprise (Israel) over young/alt Spock (Jonathan) and then young/alt Spock eventually accepts the new paradigm even forging a friendship with Kirk. A story of a new and untested boat taking out a larger and feared opponent? How about Monitor versus Merrimack/Virginia? I mean, there are tons of stories out there about untested crews and their ships taking on more impressive foes. Battleship Yamato is hardly the first time that bit of drama was penned. Another example, Themistocles commanding a small and new Athenian navy versus the Persians that were 5x in number during the battle of Artemisium. The relationship between Kirk, Spock and bones has already been shown to be a pretty obvious allegory of the Freudian concepts of the id, ego and super-ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) One gripe I've notice is that Kirk was promoted immediately to captain by Starfleet. Now if this was DS9 cadet Red Squad behind enemy lines during a quadrant wide war, with the senior crew dead and they came out alive. (Which they didn't.) I would understand. But immediately promoting Kirk after several hours at command? TOS depicted that Kirk was the youngest captain at 34 but he had various assignments where he had to prove himself like the Farragut. TNG depicted young Picard pretty much like this Kirk. Only to have been stabbed to get a better perspective in life. But it did not mean that Picard wasn't a risk taker. As a young officer Picard prooved himself a number of times. But Picard did get command when the Stargazer's captain was killed. At the time Picard was lieutenant commander at age 28. Some materials like games and novels indicate he was given full command and rank making him the youngest captain in Starfleet history. Picard was in command of the Stargazer for 22 years. Even still Picard had several years of experience compared to cadet Kirk. Having the rank of lieutenant commander. Kirk was still a cadet that hasn't even graduated yet. Edited May 13, 2009 by RedWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I dunno, discovering the trap to destroy the starfleet fleet at vulcan, defeating the unstoppable Nero, rescuing his captain, saving the earth, and having the support of the former captain of the Enterprise and now admiral Pike? Besides, Starfleet just lost a handful of captains and their crews, maybe pickings were slim? Kirk already proved himself an able captain by performing well under his field commission, with all that he had just accomplished plus the support of admiral pike and the crew of the enterprise, why wouldn't he be given formal command? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vostok 7 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 One gripe I've notice is that Kirk was promoted immediately to captain by Starfleet. Now if this was DS9 cadet Red Squad behind enemy lines during a quadrant wide war, with the senior crew dead and they came out alive. (Which they didn't.) I would understand. But immediately promoting Kirk after several hours at command? TOS depicted that Kirk was the youngest captain at 34 but he had various assignments where he had to prove himself like the Farragut. TNG depicted young Picard pretty much like this Kirk. Only to have been stabbed to get a better perspective in life. But it did not mean that Picard wasn't a risk taker. As a young officer Picard prooved himself a number of times. But Picard did get command when the Stargazer's captain was killed. At the time Picard was lieutenant commander at age 28. Some materials like games and novels indicate he was given full command and rank making him the youngest captain in Starfleet history. Picard was in command of the Stargazer for 22 years. Even still Picard had several years of experience compared to cadet Kirk. Having the rank of lieutenant commander. Kirk was still a cadet that hasn't even graduated yet. Pike said he was capable of being Captian in 4 years and having his own ship in 8. When he boarded the shuttle to join Starfleet, he told Pike he'd be captian in 3 years. Taking the Kobyashi Maru test (and passing) is essentially like going to Westpoint here on Earth, it's a fast track to being an Officer. On top of that, it wasn't "Starfleet" that promoted Kirk, it was Pike. He saw extreme potential in Kirk and so made him FO in his absence (Spock being Captian at that point). With Pike gone that became essentially set in stone. Kirk then got Spock out of the captian chair with his emotional gambit (spurred by Spock Prime), became a hero, and then the Starfleet, with now-Admiral Pike's recommendation, made Kirk permanent Captian of the Enterprise. Considering that it was an "armada" of primarily rookie filled ships sent to Vulcan (since it wasn't seen as an actual threat), and most of the rest of Starfleet was tied up in another system, promoting those who have shown extreme potential for leadership wouldn't be uncommon. Uhura for instance was promoted to Lieutenant within a few minutes of the ship leaving dock. Also, we don't know the beginning ranks of everyone. Kirk's rank is never mentioned (so calling him a cadet or ensign is a little incongruous). Look at the fact that McCoy was promoted to head of Medical simply because one guy was killed shows that he was apparently already second in command of Medical even though he was just as fresh out of the Academy as Kirk was. So no, I found no fault with Kirk's "meteoric" rise to Captian. We also don't know totally what Spock Prime's hand was in the situation either. Vostok 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Pike said he was capable of being Captian in 4 years and having his own ship in 8. Vostok 7 Actually graduate Starfleet Academy in 4 years and another eight for captain. Normally given Kirk's gifts with an officer command route by Pike's estimate he'll be captain at age 33. Which is pretty close to OTL Kirk who took command of the Enterprise at age 34. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Actually graduate Starfleet Academy in 4 years and another eight for captain. Normally given Kirk's gifts with an officer command route by Pike's estimate he'll be captain at age 33. Which is pretty close to OTL Kirk who took command of the Enterprise at age 34. yeah, it was graduate as an officer in 4, captain in 8. Kirk was talking about graduating when he answered back, "I'll do it in 3" but considering how fraked up the galaxy was, klingon empire devastated, starfleet just lost a founding planet and lost a significant number of ships... it really isn't surprising Kirk would be given command. Maybe that he was given command of the flagship but again... having just saved Earth has to have some weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Focker Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The fleet they sent to Vulcan had large numbers of cadet crewing them. Add in heavy loses and heavy heroic will lead to some bumps in Rank. Did Kirk deserve a be made Captain? He cheated on a test, stowaway on the Enterprise, told Pike they were walking into a trap & was made acting first officer. That messed up there. One no else was qualified? Later Kirk broke Spock and took charge. Rest the crew didn't object. Kirk ordered the ship to action instead of rendezvous with the rest. Kirk had good instincts and was very lucky. Worthly of a reward but to be made Captain... I'm more concerned about how Pike was made Admiral. What did he do? Allowed himself to taken hostage, assigned a known cheater and stowaway as acting first officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 He didn't break spock, kirk exposed the fact that spock was emotionally compromised. As to whether he cheated or not, that was never answered. Is it a cheat to cheat a program that is designed to cheat? Besides... savior of Earth and the Federation and the Vulcan remnant carries a lot of weight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharky Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Perhaps old Spock had something to do with Kirk remaining captain of the Enterprise. He might have persuaded Starfleet that it would be a wise decision to give Kirk command of the Enterprise since he would have been if Nero had not changed history. As others have pointed out, Kirk actually became captain after getting Spock to relieve himself of command. I think there was compelling evidence and justification for Kirk to become captain in this unprecedented way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiotheforsaken Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think if that had been the case, they would have shown it. This isn't the first time Kirk has done things outside of regs and essentially been awarded for it because of the end result. It was important for Kirk to gain command of the Enterprise under his own merits and saving the federation pretty much gets you there. So I really don't think any string pulling was needed. As for Pike being made Admiral, if I remember right (and I'll check when I see it again tonight), Pike was part of the crew on board the ship George Kirk goes down with. So I think that equates to something like 25+ years of service. The guy probably had a promotion coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vostok 7 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think if that had been the case, they would have shown it. This isn't the first time Kirk has done things outside of regs and essentially been awarded for it because of the end result. It was important for Kirk to gain command of the Enterprise under his own merits and saving the federation pretty much gets you there. So I really don't think any string pulling was needed. As for Pike being made Admiral, if I remember right (and I'll check when I see it again tonight), Pike was part of the crew on board the ship George Kirk goes down with. So I think that equates to something like 25+ years of service. The guy probably had a promotion coming. As far as I understand, Pike was never on the Kelvin. He only said he did his dissertation on the Kelvin. Vostok 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiotheforsaken Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Now that you mention it, I think you're right. That being said, he was given initial command of the federation's newest flagship so he probably had a career that would lend itself to a promotion. I could see him supporting Kirk's promotion to captain when they were sorting things out post-Nero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Train Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Slightly off topic, but discovered this tidbit by accident today: According to modeller Rick Sternbach, the fatal shrapnel embedded into Captain Garrett's head was a wing from a VF-1 Valkyrie model kit from the Japanese animated series The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. [1] This is from the episode description of TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise," imo the best episode of the whole series... but more importantly, we had a mole inside Paramount .... Source: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Yesterday%27s_Enterprise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Slightly off topic, but discovered this tidbit by accident today: According to modeller Rick Sternbach, the fatal shrapnel embedded into Captain Garrett's head was a wing from a VF-1 Valkyrie model kit from the Japanese animated series The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. [1] This is from the episode description of TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise," imo the best episode of the whole series... but more importantly, we had a mole inside Paramount .... Source: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Yesterday%27s_Enterprise hahaha, awesome! I really liked that episode, now I like it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Togo Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Slightly off topic, but discovered this tidbit by accident today: According to modeller Rick Sternbach, the fatal shrapnel embedded into Captain Garrett's head was a wing from a VF-1 Valkyrie model kit from the Japanese animated series The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. [1] This is from the episode description of TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise," imo the best episode of the whole series... but more importantly, we had a mole inside Paramount .... Source: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Yesterday%27s_Enterprise Yeah, its a wiki. You could edit it to say "Garfield" instead of a "VF-1 Valkyrie" if one so desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Train Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yeah, its a wiki. You could edit it to say "Garfield" instead of a "VF-1 Valkyrie" if one so desired. You are indeed correct. Perhaps it was a Garfield and not a VF-1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugimon Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 You are indeed correct. Perhaps it was a Garfield and not a VF-1. Garfield doesn't make sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vostok 7 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Yeah, its a wiki. You could edit it to say "Garfield" instead of a "VF-1 Valkyrie" if one so desired. Actually, they used several Anime model kits to kitbash ships as well (most notably the original model for the USS Stargazer which used several Valkyrie parts as well as two Ertl Enterprise A kits). Straight from the horses mouth, so-to-speak, not just a "wiki": http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sf.scal...D1%26&pli=1 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sf.scal...5ccfbb747308334 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sf.scal...c2e76a01e2c4b9a http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/11/...bash-pictorial/ <---- Pictures of the original Stargazer model seen on Picard's desk. Vostok 7 Edited May 14, 2009 by Vostok 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myk Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think if that had been the case, they would have shown it. This isn't the first time Kirk has done things outside of regs and essentially been awarded for it because of the end result. That's always been the essence of TOS anyway. Cowboy heroics and antics, ends justifying the means and all of that stuff. Maybe when and if they do a reboot of TNG they'll go back to rules, regulations and talking things out while wearing stuffy shirts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikuro Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I just watched the episode, unless they melted that wing to curve, that's not a VF-1 wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 You guys have twisted my arm, will now go and see this when and if it makes it's way to the cinemas in this part of the world. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross007 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 hahaha, awesome! I really liked that episode, now I like it more. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Slightly off topic, but discovered this tidbit by accident today: According to modeller Rick Sternbach, the fatal shrapnel embedded into Captain Garrett's head was a wing from a VF-1 Valkyrie model kit from the Japanese animated series The Super Dimension Fortress Macross. [1] This is from the episode description of TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise," imo the best episode of the whole series... but more importantly, we had a mole inside Paramount .... Source: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Yesterday%27s_Enterprise Been going on for years..... Bowmans pod from 2001 in The Phantom Menace.... R2D2 in Close Encounters.... Firefly in BSG...... Taksraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 http://gizmodo.com/5253324/how-big-is-the-...ed-to-galactica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the white drew carey Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yeah, its a wiki. You could edit it to say "Garfield" instead of a "VF-1 Valkyrie" if one so desired. Nah... I think that one is true. I remember reading/hearing about that years and years ago, before Wikis, at least. I'll see if I can dig up my copy of the Nitpicker's Guide to see if its in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles316 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Does any one have a picture of poor Captain Garrett after getting skewered? Edited May 14, 2009 by miles316 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 http://gizmodo.com/5253324/how-big-is-the-...ed-to-galactica I'm calling bullshit on the size of the new Enterprise (again). When you compare details like the windows and the bridge dome, you can see everything's the same scale as the refit Enterprise. It's pretty obvious that they built the CGI model to look close to the old Enterprise, and then they started tossing around random numbers after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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