Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread III *Read 1st Post*

[Sumdumgai]

If Battle Galaxy makes an appearance then it would be the fifth NMC vessel we've seen. Battle-5, Battle-7, Battle 13, Battle-Frontier, and Battle-Galaxy (if it appears).

[RedWolf]

If Battle Galaxy makes an appearance then it would be the fifth NMC vessel we've seen. Battle-5, Battle-7, Battle 13, Battle-Frontier, and Battle-Galaxy (if it appears).

Imagine a Macross fleet with corresponding different city blocks.

The shellless Macross 1 city block, the Macross 7 city block, the Zentradi Macross 6 city block, Macross Frontier island block, and Macross Galaxy's funky chemical plant ship. Each having a different variant of the NMC.

Throw in a SDF Macross class as research ship and a Macross Quarter class as a military ship.

Overkill isn't it?

[Fade Rathnik]

No not really each Nimitz for example is different from the one before. You might run into batches being built more or less the same but designs get revised with time.

[d3v]

I also found it interesting that the Galaxy went with a window stripe for the bridge area as opposed to the traditional bubble (granted it's an artist's conception of the bridge to mimic the look of the VF-27, but practically it is a safer design).

Might not be a window at all, but rather a sensor array similar to that on most Valk heads with the bridge being entirely VR based.

[anime52k8]

Might not be a window at all, but rather a sensor array similar to that on most Valk heads with the bridge being entirely VR based.

considering the short bridge shot during the galaxy's call for help the galaxy bridge may be more submerine like and be rather dark with nothing but TV monitors. ( like BG's bridge)

[d3v]

considering the short bridge shot during the galaxy's call for help the galaxy bridge may be more submerine like and be rather dark with nothing but TV monitors. ( like BG's bridge)

Off course, that may not even be the Galaxy's bridge at all since from what we've seen, the Galaxy is basically unhurt.

[timmystyle]

Yeah, less a bridge and more a CIC. Makes sense; especially since capital ship bridges in Macross are combination of both. Someone's probably already delved into this, but the multi-platform layout, often with two platforms adjacent to one another and a third one above them gives the impression of CIC(for offensive fire control, PD coordination, sensors etc), a Flight Ops, and the top platform being a command level that oversees both of them.

[sketchley]

Added translations of the connection between the VF-25 and VF-27, and the paragraph on the VF-171EX in the first post of http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=1934 (Great Mechanics.DX 6 - MF article w/ VF-25 & VF-27 stats)

[badboy00z]

Can you post a scan of the Mechanics DX page?

Edited September 23, 2008 by badboy00z

[Graham]

CG mecha scans from the new November 2008 issue of Hobby Japan Magazine.

Note the various versions of the VF-171EX.

After about a month, I will remove the pages from the mag to file them and then I can do better scans.

Graham

[Mr March]

*click, save, click, save*

Thanks Graham.

One really weird part: Macross Galaxy Since 2336? What the heck does that mean?

[VF-25 Messiah]

CG mecha scans from the new November 2008 issue of Hobby Japan Magazine.

Note the various versions of the VF-171EX.

After about a month, I will remove the pages from the mag to file them and then I can do better scans.

Graham

I'm more spellbound by the big guy up on top. Finally get to see a good big scan of him, thanks!

[RedWolf]

Translation on their designations please

Guess the RVF-171 look like the RVF-171EX with a different head.

Name of Alto's and grunts' VF-171EX?

[Sulendil Ang]

RedWolf: There is no designation. From left to right: Normal type, Alto type, Luca type.

[Sulendil Ang]

*click, save, click, save*

Thanks Graham.

One really weird part: Macross Galaxy Since 2336? What the heck does that mean?

Is that mean... Galaxy is a fleet from the future!?

Nay, I think it's just a typo. Should be 2036... That, or it really is a time machine.

[RedWolf]

RedWolf: There is no designation. From left to right: Normal type, Alto type, Luca type.

Then that means Normal, Leader and Recon types.

Alto has an extra pack of missiles I think.

[Master Dex]

Big Frontier pic finally! I just love seeing that monster every time.

[grss1982]

CG mecha scans from the new November 2008 issue of Hobby Japan Magazine.

Note the various versions of the VF-171EX.

After about a month, I will remove the pages from the mag to file them and then I can do better scans.

Graham

Thanks, Graham.

So the Luca's VF-171 CAN transform. I'm curious though as to why the Gerwalk mode for Luca's is not shown.

YAY!!!! Battle Frontier pic.

Edited September 23, 2008 by grss1982

[Sulendil Ang]

Thanks, Graham.

So the Luca's VF-171 CAN transform. I'm curious though as to why the Gerwalk mode for Luca's is not shown.

YAY!!!! Battle Frontier pic.

They sacrifice Luca's Gerwalk for your nice Battle Frontier picture. Isn't that reason good enough for you?

[RedWolf]

So the Luca's VF-171 CAN transform. I'm curious though as to why the Gerwalk mode for Luca's is not shown.

Have you ever seen the original G1 Megatron toy?

Picture Luca's VF-171EX in Gerwalk mode and its crotch... Not pretty isn't it?

[azrael]

Then that means Normal, Leader and Recon types.

Nope. It just says Normal type, Alto type, Luca type. Alto's is probably a normal type with a different paint scheme.

[VF-25 Messiah]

Nope. It just says Normal type, Alto type, Luca type. Alto's is probably a normal type with a different paint scheme.

Except for the fact that his machine clearly has differences other than a different paint job. The extra gear on the legs for instance. Of course you're right in that the text doesn't state anything.

[Morpheus]

Awesome pic Graham, my Frontier folder is getting fatter

[Cybergig1]

stellar pics, glad to see a great shot of Battle Frontier, now if it had Battle Galaxy as well it would have been supreme but I'll take what I can get! just two more days!

[Fade Rathnik]

I think Alto's was listed as 'Protect' specifications as in up armored.

[ChronoReverse]

This is digging up an old topic, but I was bored and looked up some more thrust values of a few noteworthy fighters.

The original VF-1 (225+kN) has less thrust than the F-14D at 240+kN much less the current F-22 (312+kN)*!

The VF-4 has marginally more at 274+kN

The VF-11 has 558+kN which is just a smidgen over 2x as much as the VF-1

The VF-19 (1107+kN) is 2x that for almost 5x as much as the VF-1

The VF-25 can output 3240+kN which is about 14x (!) more than the VF-1 (incidentally, one VF-25 engine provides the same thrust as one Space Shuttle Main Engine). At the same time, there's the VF-27 (5508+kN) at 24x (!?) the VF-1.

One of of these progressions don't follow up with the rest...

*Although the F-22 is also heavier than the VF-1, the F-22 actually has a higher g limit (+9) compared to the VF-1 (+7). I guess they're technically "contemporary" fighters in terms of timeline... In any case, the matchup between the variable fighter and F-14 isn't actually that bad before taking transformation into account (the F-14D is about the same in terms of stats as the VF-1).

These are just stats of course, but it's still fun to indulge.

Edited September 23, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[David Hingtgen]

I've had a bit of a theory lately:

If the SWAG/energy converting armor gets its energy from the engines, then that would mean that the far more powerful engines could be primarily used for additional armor/shielding power. We saw Ozma has PPB shielding or thereabouts, in addition to the normal valk energized armor.

Real aircraft (especially airliners) work the same way---everything's run off the engines. The more features/gimmicks active, the less of the engine's power is actually available for thrust. On a 747, if everyone opens their air vent at once, there's that much less thrust for propulsion.

The 787's #1 design feature IMHO (and #1 reason it's so much more fuel efficient) is a complete redesign of that concept---they want the engines to be used for thrust, and thrust alone. Hydraulics, electricity, pressurization, air conditioning, etc---as little as possible of that will depend on the engines. IIRC as much as 20% of an airliner's engine power can be devoted to "passenger comfort", the 787 attempts to reclaim that. This is also why airliners often turn off the air conditioning for a few minutes during takeoff---they want every bit of thrust possible. (since air/pressurization has the most direct effect, since it's being sucked directly out of the later compressor stages and thus can't contribute to thrust)

So----while a VF-25 engine etc may be tremendously powerful---the thrust number is only good for "soley providing thrust" mode. Which'd rarely be used. More likely, it could use its tremendous amount of power to beef up the armor/shields, and still have "normal VF-19 levels of thrust" remaining. Its speed would be equal to the VF-19, but with far greater defense. So in "typical" use, the numbers would be more like "1200Kn+many megawatts of electricity for armor".

[Zinjo]

Might not be a window at all, but rather a sensor array similar to that on most Valk heads with the bridge being entirely VR based.

True enough.

Most Zentreadi weaponry uses the sensor array even the canopy of the VF-14s, so it is possible.

[nugundam93]

chrono, given those figures, how then was the YF-19 able to attain orbit on its own, seeing that the engine output is less than the space shuttle's main engines (which isn't the main contributor to its orbital insertion)? i'm thinking weight doesn't factor much here...

[Graham]

I've had a bit of a theory lately:

If the SWAG/energy converting armor gets its energy from the engines, then that would mean that the far more powerful engines could be primarily used for additional armor/shielding power. We saw Ozma has PPB shielding or thereabouts, in addition to the normal valk energized armor.

Real aircraft (especially airliners) work the same way---everything's run off the engines. The more features/gimmicks active, the less of the engine's power is actually available for thrust. On a 747, if everyone opens their air vent at once, there's that much less thrust for propulsion.

The 787's #1 design feature IMHO (and #1 reason it's so much more fuel efficient) is a complete redesign of that concept---they want the engines to be used for thrust, and thrust alone. Hydraulics, electricity, pressurization, air conditioning, etc---as little as possible of that will depend on the engines. IIRC as much as 20% of an airliner's engine power can be devoted to "passenger comfort", the 787 attempts to reclaim that. This is also why airliners often turn off the air conditioning for a few minutes during takeoff---they want every bit of thrust possible. (since air/pressurization has the most direct effect, since it's being sucked directly out of the later compressor stages and thus can't contribute to thrust)

So----while a VF-25 engine etc may be tremendously powerful---the thrust number is only good for "soley providing thrust" mode. Which'd rarely be used. More likely, it could use its tremendous amount of power to beef up the armor/shields, and still have "normal VF-19 levels of thrust" remaining. Its speed would be equal to the VF-19, but with far greater defense. So in "typical" use, the numbers would be more like "1200Kn+many megawatts of electricity for armor".

Very interesting theory.

Graham

[Master Dex]

Very interesting theory.

Graham

Agreed.

[ChronoReverse]

@David Hingtgen

I like that theory too since it does neatly explain a few things.

With that said, it's also notable that the VF-25 and the VF-27's top atmospheric speed is still about the same as the VF-19 citing thermal issues. With that much excess energy for the SWAG I'm a bit surprised that hasn't been increased. Perhaps only enough energy to boost the SWAG or the speed but not both as you say? The accelerations are definitely higher though since it's already mentioned the EX-Gears help with that.

chrono, given those figures, how then was the YF-19 able to attain orbit on its own, seeing that the engine output is less than the space shuttle's main engines (which isn't the main contributor to its orbital insertion)? i'm thinking weight doesn't factor much here...

Dude, the Space Shuttle masses over 68 tons. The VF-19 is only about 8.5 tons which is less than even the featherweight F-16! And the fuel in Macross seems to be very efficient and low mass (magic Overtechnology lol)

The primary issue with the earlier variable fighters getting into space is less thrust but fuel anyway. Since they're jets, they can fly up high in an efficient manner before switching to rocket mode and pulling into orbit. With that, you only need a positive thrust to weight ratio (which isn't sufficient for rockets).

Edited September 24, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[sketchley]

Good theory.

Perhaps it's not so much the excess energy being diverted to other uses, but the engine not being run at max output all the time. Perhaps the VF-19 and VF-22 were pushing themselves to maintain Mach 5.0+ at 10,000 m, but the VF-25 and VF-27 do that without breaking a sweat. Perhaps they're the in-universe equivalent of super cruise taken to the Nth degree?

@David Hingtgen

I like that theory too since it does neatly explain a few things.

With that said, it's also notable that the VF-25 and the VF-27's top atmospheric speed is still about the same as the VF-19 citing thermal issues. With that much excess energy for the SWAG I'm a bit surprised that hasn't been increased. Perhaps only enough energy to boost the SWAG or the speed but not both as you say? The accelerations are definitely higher though since it's already mentioned the EX-Gears help with that.

[ChronoReverse]

That's what I meant by excess energy for the SWAG.

If the VF-25 is pushing to reach Mach 5 then there's not enough energy for the SWAG. Fine. But if it's not pushing to reach Mach 5, then it would have excess energy for the SWAG and should be able to push further. Since the VF-19 can hit Mach 5 before the thermal issues, it seems odd that the VF-25 can't push even further. This is before considering the VF-27 which has even more ridiculously powerful engines.

Note that this is cruising speed. It's almost certainly true that the VF-25 and VF-27 have way higher instantaneous speeds (and the ability for the pilots to withstand the accelerations for those).

Hmm, our jet planes leech power from the engines because they're turbines and part of the rotation is being used to generate electricity. I wonder if the OT thermonuclear engines can avoid that. For that matter, are they even turbines anymore? A lot of energy is wasted as heat anyway so if only the waste is captured there might not be a need to steal energy from thrust under most circumstances. We don't even have to worry about theoretical efficiencies either since we can make the engines run uber hot as well as break some laws of physics because of Overtechnology lol.

Edited September 24, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[sketchley]

Ok. We were approaching it from different angles (absolute and minimalist power used/available).

Yes, the Japanese specifically states "thermonuclear turbine engine".

For that matter, are they even turbines anymore?