Macross Frontier and Fansubs

[Proto]

If you need help you have to say what you're watching the episodes on and what type the episode is. Also, the OS you're on would help too.

Media player classic, MMF(Matroska Media File), Os: Windows Xp

Update: Fixed. There was a conflict between the player and directvobsob. Thanks

Edited August 2, 2008 by Proto

[creamyhorror]

However having close caption script still doesn't guarantee good translation, as less experience translators can now rely on making word for word literal translation, instead of listening to what the characters are trying to say.

True enough (though I don't consider myself in that category). Generally, though, groups with access to closed captions generally are the more established ones and have better translators.

Edited August 2, 2008 by creamyhorror

[Tom and Jerry]

Although Shinsen has-access to close caption in the form of ts stream file, we don't routinely extract these close captions. It's not part of the traditional project work flow. The fansub steps with Shinsen runs like this.

1) Raw provider extracting video and audio stream (no close caption scream) from ts files 1 day

2) Translator making first draft ranslation by ear 3 days

3) Timer - timing the script 1 day

4) Translation checker - checking the timed script 2 days

5) Stylist - doing the font typesetting 1 day

6) Editor - redrafting the translation - 2 days

7) Encoder - first trial encoding - 2 days

1st pass QCer - QC report - 2 days

9) Editor - redrafting the script - 2 days

10) Encoding - 2nd Encoding - 2 days

11) 2nd QCer - QC report - 2 days

12) Editor - 2nd Editing - 1 day

13) Encoder - final encoding - 2 days

14) Distro - waiting for distro to upload - 2 days

So it takes about at least 3 weeks to complete the process, assuming that the entire team is available.

I guess the work flow with gg subs is more like this:

1) Raw provider providing video, audio and close captions stream - 1 day

2) Translating using close captions

3) Timing

4) Editing 2+3+4 - 1 day

5) Muliplexing subs with video and audio stream into mkv format

6) Distro 5+6 1 day

Total 3 days

Edited August 2, 2008 by Tom and Jerry

[creamyhorror]

I guess the work flow with gg subs is more like this:

1) Raw provider providing video, audio and close captions stream - 1 day

2) Translating using close captions

3) Timing

4) Editing 2+3+4 - 1 day

5) Muliplexing subs with video and audio stream into mkv format

6) Distro 5+6 1 day

Total 3 days

Well, some corrections. We encode our releases from the transport stream, clearly (otherwise they'd be 3GB in size) and our encoders are pretty experienced. We run an edit pass, then we have simultaneous QC by 3-6 people all perusing the script, including another translator to guard against translation errors. Finally, our release usually comes at about 6-8 hours from airing.

I don't understand why you don't cross-check against the closed captions. Is there some danger in doing so? Have you found errors in the CCs?

[Tom and Jerry]

We don't cross check our translation with close captions because no one in our group would extract close captions from ts streams which we have access to. We have to TC by ear. Shinsen is a very large group, people are generally less prepared to change the way they do things, like doing things in tandem, and communicating and coordinating with members can be difficult. There is no way we can release anything within 6-8 hours from airing. Our average release time is about 4 weeks, assuming that no one is away.

Most japanese CCs are very accurate, apart from occasional minor discrepancy in wording. But you will loose visual and audio context if you just translate from the written script.

Releasing at 6-8 hours is impressive. I wonder how you guys work? What happen if people go on holiday?

[Suzuran]

We don't cross check our translation with close captions because no one in our group would extract close captions from ts streams which we have access to. We have to TC by ear. Shinsen is a very large group, people are generally less prepared to change the way they do things, like doing things in tandem, and communicating and coordinating with members can be difficult. There is no way we can release anything within 6-8 hours from airing. Our average release time is about 4 weeks, assuming that no one is away.

Most japanese CCs are very accurate, apart from occasional minor discrepancy in wording. But you will loose visual and audio context if you just translate from the written script.

Releasing at 6-8 hours is impressive. I wonder how you guys work? What happen if people go on holiday?

Just to correct some misunderstanding, we don't translate from the CC but from the video. We have been fansubbing for several years now hence I'd say we have quite experienced ears that don't need to rely on CCs. They are just there to check on spots you are unsure of (especially with newly introduced terms) to ensure accuracy.

Our work process is

Encoding & Timing -> TL -> me bitching about how slow everyone else is -> Edit -> QC -> Release

If someone is not available we ask someone else to fill in for him.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Suzuran

[creamyhorror]

Most japanese CCs are very accurate, apart from occasional minor discrepancy in wording. But you will loose visual and audio context if you just translate from the written script.

Yes of course, I wouldn't dream of translating from a script directly, that would really be a recipe for disaster.

We don't cross check our translation with close captions because no one in our group would extract close captions from ts streams which we have access to. We have to TC by ear.

In that case, I think you're squandering what's probably the most useful aspect of TSs. Why would you not extract them, since they're embedded in the TS anyway (right?)? I know a few Shinsen folk and they certainly know how to extract captions. If it's really merely out of a simple resistance to change, then that's really a waste and someone should do something about it. I can't really fathom translators *not* wanting something as helpful as CCs, anyway (are you a TL?).

Shinsen is a very large group, people are generally less prepared to change the way they do things, like doing things in tandem, and communicating and coordinating with members can be difficult. There is no way we can release anything within 6-8 hours from airing. Our average release time is about 4 weeks, assuming that no one is away.

Releasing at 6-8 hours is impressive. I wonder how you guys work? What happen if people go on holiday?

I know how groups like yours work, and it's pretty much a normal workflow. The difference simply lies in the time commitment level that members have agreed to. Our members know that they're required for an intensive bout of subbing in the hours after a show airs, so that's when they turn up. We also have redundancy so others can fill in roles when someone is not around (e.g. backup translator, editor, encoder, and a gaggle of QCers). If the translator goes on holiday, we might get another to fill in his role, but it hasn't happened yet in the short time I've been with them. I think Eclipse dubbed this sort of practice "intense subbing" (as opposed to speedsubbing) because it aims to leave no gaps between each phase of work, while preserving all the basic requirements for a decent sub. The necessary requirement, of course, is people who are addicted to and energized by the "speed is life" mentality, which has to be balanced by taking pride in releasing a good product.

Something of a negative factor is the perception that a group will be better because it takes longer, so how can a fast group really be any good? (Equivalent to the price-quality assumption in economics/marketing) In some cases, however, we *might* stumble where a slower group might not, but we'd put out a v2 a day or two later at latest.

Suzuran (my fellow translator whom I split Frontier with) actually bitches me out for taking my time on translation and QCing, but actually the bastard's just too fast

Edited August 3, 2008 by creamyhorror

[Tom and Jerry]

"Most japanese CCs are very accurate, apart from occasional minor discrepancy in wording. But you will loose visual and audio context if you just translate from the written script."

This is meant for other less experienced translators. I am sure you do a very impressive job in such a short time.

"In that case, I think you're squandering what's probably the most useful aspect of TSs. Why would you not extract them, since they're embedded in the TS anyway (right?)? I know a few Shinsen folk and they certainly know how to extract captions. If it's really merely out of a simple resistance to change, then that's really a waste and someone should do something about it. I can't really fathom translators *not* wanting something as helpful as CCs, anyway (are you a TL?)."

Well, because it is a real hassle trying to get people to extract close captions and post them on the server on a regular basis, even though we have people who can do it.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of staff redundancy and we have to put the project on hold whenever any one of the staff member is on holiday.

I am a translator. But I am only helping out a bit dialog TC and lyrics translation for Macross Frontier. KoB is doing a fine job as the main translator and he works pretty fast. We are putting the project on hold right now because some of the staff members are away, and it is not easy to find temporary replacements to fill in. Hopefully, we can pick up the project again soon, if there is still a demand for it.

I think people are starting to value more and more speedsubs than before. I wouldn't get too concerned about the negative perception of speedsubs. I am sure people can do without fancy typesetting as long as the translation is reasonably accurate and the encoding is of high quality.

[creamyhorror]

Well, because it is a real hassle trying to get people to extract close captions and post them on the server on a regular basis, even though we have people who can do it.

It just needs to be made part of your workflow. Whoever downloads the TS raw (your encoder I presume) should just be assigned to extract the CCs and upload them every time (it's not particularly hard, not at all). But that's for you to work out.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of staff redundancy and we have to put the project on hold whenever any one of the staff member is on holiday.

That reflects your group's priorities in subbing, I guess. We focus on subbing two shows intensively and quickly, and it's really nice not to have to wait for someone who's been dawdling for weeks on the work or has been busy, etc., since it's all over quickly. The hard part is finding people who can commit to the same time period each week, but it certainly pays off in terms of satisfaction.

I am a translator. But I am only helping out a bit dialog TC and lyrics translation for Macross Frontier. KoB is doing a fine job as the main translator and he works pretty fast. We are putting the project on hold right now because some of the staff members are away, and it is not easy to find temporary replacements to fill in. Hopefully, we can pick up the project again soon, if there is still a demand for it.

From the comments here, I'm sure you have quite a few people waiting

I wouldn't get too concerned about the negative perception of speedsubs. I am sure people can do without fancy typesetting as long as the translation is reasonably accurate and the encoding is of high quality.

Indeed. Fancy typesetting being the only really "good" typesetting is a school of thought that I don't agree with. Nothing wrong with nice effects and jaw-dropping matching, but sometimes the increased time that such TSing requires can lead TSers to put off their work and cause big delays. (This isn't even an issue in gg since we dislike doing anything hardcoded anyway - karaoke, signs, everything is softsubbed in .ASS.) In terms of encoding quality, I don't think most people notice anything at all, since they happily download blurred-to-hell-then-overwarpsharpened stuff.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I agree with that last sentiment. As I said before, the MGS parody on your site is very true about the whole, "he who releases first, wins". i know plenty of fans who don't even care much if things are highly accurate, as long as it's fast and makes reasonable sense. After all they're at the complete mercy of the group and know not if they mess up as long as it's not obviously out of left field, so they'll grab whatever is put out first. Even if it's not who made it the first last time. Some do adhere to one group though, I being one of them within reason. However, it really does seem to be a case of fastest consumption possible. Though i hope it's the better subs that have the staying power.

I'm rather particular in that I value the accuracy of a sub most, so in a project like this I look for opinions and comparisons and try to go from there. I also prefer not to switch groups mid-stream for consistency and archive sake. I get the feeling I'm in the minority there, though at least some people have loyalty to one group. The only time I do so is if another group is hands down better (which is often never the case as it can be episode to episode), if something's just off about the group and another corrects it ( say honorific use or or phrasing) or if I feel that two groups are par enough that even I can go with the one that releases first (like on S1 of Code Geass). In this case, I'll watch either GG or Lunar, as both are pretty good from what I've seen. So lately I've been watching GG, but grabbing Lunar as well to possibly archive, as I still watched the majority through them. I haven't decided yet, as a lot of good groups are handling the show.

As for speedsubs, I abhor them, but it depends on if it's actually the case. GG sounds like it's simply being a well oiled machine that allows such speed. My definition of a speed sub is one released mere hours from the raw, by some group I've never heard of that hasn't done the previous 16 episodes and probably skipped QC and the finer points of encoding. Sort of how I'm not touching the Nightspeed Code Geass subs. I have no probably waiting if the waiting's worthwhile.

[Isamu Starkiller]

I am a translator. But I am only helping out a bit dialog TC and lyrics translation for Macross Frontier. KoB is doing a fine job as the main translator and he works pretty fast. We are putting the project on hold right now because some of the staff members are away, and it is not easy to find temporary replacements to fill in. Hopefully, we can pick up the project again soon, if there is still a demand for it.

I only speak for me and my wife, we grab the first avail raw then wait for shinsen's subs as they were the one's we began with for Macross Frontier and would like the consistancy of having them thru the series. This in no way to be taken negatively by other subbers, as they all work hard for us fans and should be thanked for their time and efforts.

Pineapple cake for all!

[Mr March]

As for speedsubs, I abhor them, but it depends on if it's actually the case.

I understand what you mean. Someone just posted a type of fan sub of episode 17 on veoh that I've never seen before. Oh gawd, was it awful. I couldn't watch it! Over half the screen was covered in song subtitles and I couldn't tell the difference from the lyrcis over the dialog!

I hope a different group is doing episode 17. I REALLY hope

[David Hingtgen]

Currently, I have half Kei, a bit under half GG, and a few gattai/shinsen. I don't torrent so I'm mainly at the mercy of whatever's uploaded to the non-torrent sites. Which is usually "whoever's first".

PS--VLC really does suck it seems. Media Player/CCCP does much better.

[Freelancer]

One subs unrelated question: Does anyone know how many episodes of Macross Frontier are they planing to release ? coz its uber cool anime

[VF-25 Messiah]

One subs unrelated question: Does anyone know how many episodes of Macross Frontier are they planing to release ? coz its uber cool anime

If it's unrelated to subs why ask it in the subs thread?

And I think the number is kind of up in the air now. It was believed earlier to be 25 episode because of the number of DVD volumes that are going to be released, but the episode count per disc seems to recently have come into question. (4 eps per disc as opposed to 3 eps per disc)

[GreatMoose]

I just wanted to say, I find this whole discussion absolutely fascinating! The dedication you guys have to your work is outstanding. Kudos to all!

[Dobber]

I just hope that Shinsen doesn't get so far behind with Frontier that they just decide to drop it.

Chris

[Mr March]

I just hope that Shinsen doesn't get so far behind with Frontier that they just decide to drop it.

Chris

This is my fear as well.

All these quickie subs are fine to accommodate my impatience. But once Macross Frontier finishes, I'd like to have access to a complete series of the Shinsen subs so I can re-watch the whole series and pick up everything that was initially lost in translation

[Suzuran]

I understand what you mean. Someone just posted a type of fan sub of episode 17 on veoh that I've never seen before. Oh gawd, was it awful. I couldn't watch it! Over half the screen was covered in song subtitles and I couldn't tell the difference from the lyrcis over the dialog!

I hope a different group is doing episode 17. I REALLY hope

Because the initial resolution is 1280x720 and not 320x240 or whatever it's on veoh. I ask why people watch anime on veoh at the first place but oh well, if they want awful video quality and crippled subtitles then it's okay, I guess.

pick up everything that was initially lost in translation

How can you say something is lost in the translation when you don't even understand Japanese? Sounds like you're just trying to throw mud on someone else's hard work.

[Chronocidal]

Actually I tried watching that sub too, and while yes, Veoh is low quality, this sub was literally unwatchable. I'm not going to post the link, but I'll quote:

"Macross Frontier 17 Sub @ZomgAnime.com Uploaded again and again with super sized subs for awesome" Um, no. Trust me, not awesome.

What they failed to realize is that those subs are so huge they cover most of the picture. Pair that with the fact that they use identical font color and size for song lyrics (both the original and translated versions mind you), and it's a disaster. There's so much text that they can't fit entire sentences on the screen, so by the time you figure out what line is actually the dialogue, it's gone. Someone on there complained that they had to pause the video every time new subs came up so they had time to read them.

I gave up after 5 minutes of trying to figure out what Ozma says in the first 30 sec of the episode.

Edit: Actually, I take that back.. I had to go back and be sure I wasn't just being picky, and I ran across this gem of a freeze-frame.

Someone help me here, I can't tell...which is he calling tasty, his heart or his guitar?

Edited August 4, 2008 by Chronocidal

[Mr March]

Suzuran

Because some people run websites and have their hard drives filled with psd files, tiffs, scans and screenshots with no space for downloading episodes of anime. And it sounds to me like someone is fishing for a fight, in which case I'm not interested.

Chronocidal

That's the one!

Indeed, totally unwatchable. I lasted about 30 seconds before stopping. I couldn't believe it. It gave me a whole new appreciation for the fan sub groups that have been doing Frontier so far. They might not be the most accurate, but at least they are readable and enjoyable.

[crasis]

Question for the GG guys on this board: What RAWs are you timing your subtitle scripts to? I tried downloading the .ass for episode 17 (and the last 5 episodes or so), but I can't find a RAW out there that removes the "sponsored by..." screen, as yours apparently do. The result is a complete timing mess after the opening credits. And, sadly, these .ass files are my only option to watch your groups' subs, since my mac utterly refuses to play h.264 stuff. I really want to enjoy your subs, but it seems like I'm destined not to.

[Wallgods]

Question for the GG guys on this board: What RAWs are you timing your subtitle scripts to? I tried downloading the .ass for episode 17 (and the last 5 episodes or so), but I can't find a RAW out there that removes the "sponsored by..." screen, as yours apparently do. The result is a complete timing mess after the opening credits. And, sadly, these .ass files are my only option to watch your groups' subs, since my mac utterly refuses to play h.264 stuff. I really want to enjoy your subs, but it seems like I'm destined not to.

You can just use Aegissub and use it to shift the lines after the ads forward ~10 seconds. There might still be some problems, but that will solve your current crisis.

[azrael]

Question for the GG guys on this board: What RAWs are you timing your subtitle scripts to? I tried downloading the .ass for episode 17 (and the last 5 episodes or so), but I can't find a RAW out there that removes the "sponsored by..." screen, as yours apparently do. The result is a complete timing mess after the opening credits. And, sadly, these .ass files are my only option to watch your groups' subs, since my mac utterly refuses to play h.264 stuff. I really want to enjoy your subs, but it seems like I'm destined not to.

They have indicated that they sub against the TBS broadcast. Not the MBS broadcast.

[Suzuran]

We capture the video from Japanese TV ourselves. So the raw might not be exactly like the same one you find on bittorrent (depends how the encoder cuts out the TV ads and stuff).

edit: Forget what I said about the other 17 sub.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Suzuran

[Sulendil Ang]

A question: do anyone knows what happened to Kei? I miss those AVI...

[Dobber]

So, for those of you that are like me and really liked Shinsen subs, which group would you recomend trying....Lunar, GG, ect...

I really want to catch up with what's been happening. Please, any recommendations?

Chris

[magnuskn]

So, for those of you that are like me and really liked Shinsen subs, which group would you recomend trying....Lunar, GG, ect...

I really want to catch up with what's been happening. Please, any recommendations?

Chris

gg are normally outstanding. Last episode had some weird stuff, but Suzuran and/or creamyhorror said they´d look if a patch to the file would be appropiate ( I hope so! ). And as Chihiro/Kei seem to be out of town, gg is also the first group to release.

[Knight26]

Please tell me that someone else has subbed episode 17, I still have too much trouble watching the GG subs, the video lags behind the audio when I watch it for some reason.

[mikeszekely]

Please tell me that someone else has subbed episode 17, I still have too much trouble watching the GG subs, the video lags behind the audio when I watch it for some reason.

Not yet, it seems. I'm waiting for Lunar myself.

[UN Spacy]

I hope Kei and Lunar haven't dropped it.

Me thinks they're just being extremely slow.

[mikeszekely]

I hope Kei and Lunar haven't dropped it.

Me thinks they're just being extremely slow.

The agonizing thing about Lunar is that while they keep releasing stuff, they haven't updated website in nearly a year (Macross Frontier isn't even listed on their Projects page). So I'd say the site's abandoned, and even if they did drop Frontier, we wouldn't know until someone from Lunar came here and told us.

[Freelancer]

well i personally switched to Lunar after Gattai dropped out and so far i can't complain........ i prefer good video quality over subs coz thats whats all the action!!! Sometimes I dont even need to read the subtitles in fight who cares what are they yelling as long as there are some nasty action going on

[azrael]

I hope Kei and Lunar haven't dropped it.

Me thinks they're just being extremely slow.

Well it is summer and people have a tendency to go on vacation this time of year.

[MisaForever]

Well it is summer and people have a tendency to go on vacation this time of year.

What people would these be? When you work, you don't get the summer off for vacation. They must be rich otaku who don't work.