Ghost in the Shell Live Action - March 31, 2017

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I wonder about this, too, and how prevalent this thinking is in Japan. I was always under the impression that, generally, Japanese audiences understand anime characters as "Japanese" (insofar as nationality is at all applicable to anime) whenever it comes to how they specifically interact with the characters. But then again, anime in Japan encompasses literally all animation; the term isn't used nearly as specifically as it is here. Heck, the "term" isn't even a term, it's just a Japanese tendency to shorthand EVERYTHING. And even here people argue that stuff like Avatar, Wakfu, Samurai Jack, Adventure Time, etc. fall under the American definition of "anime." One Youtuber likens anime to historical art movements like the Renaissance, modernism, etc., which I think is a... better way to understand it, but anyway.

This isn't the first time that I've heard the Japanese considering anime characters international.  Something to do with the hair, eye, and skin colour.

Perhaps the best way to sum it up is how non-Japanese characters generally act in anime.  That non-Japanese behaviour inversely makes it more accessible for foreign (or non-(East) Asian) markets.  Examples of anime where the characters behave Japanese would be Sazae-san, Doraemon, and Yamato (but the last one is a bit of a stretch - as the ship's crew is supposed to be international, and I only get the feeling when they are singing patriotic songs...).  Anyhow...

 

Agreed that anime (English definition) is definitely more exclusive and limited in scope than the Japanese definition (the same holds true for otaku, in Japan).  More than it just being a shorthand version, it's also a fundamental difference in perception.  In general, East Asians (going on personal experience here, may or may not cover a wider area) perceive terms inclusively, whereas English speakers (or Western Europeans) perceive terms exclusively.

This can be illustrated with the approach to religion and philosophy.  In Western European based cultures, religion and philosophy are exclusive and separate (Christianity, Judaism, etc. vs. anarchism, nihilism, etc), whereas in East Asia their not one or the other, but a mix of both (Buddhism (religio-philosophy, Confuciansim philoso-religon, etc.).

This perception applies equally to anime: it is fundamentally an art movement (as you said), but there are nuances of it being limited to only the Japanese expression of it.

 

So, in a way, the discussion on whitewashing isn't applicable at all!  But in another way, it is partially applicable at best.  Hope that makes sense!

Edited March 27, 2017 by sketchley

[electric indigo]

I thought pop-culture was as inclusive as you can get, so I'm puzzled to see the fight over authorship, roots and other exclusive issues, or "control", if you will, on a race/nation base.

I'm not denying that there are racial or cultural issues worthy of discussion, but IMO this movie is the wrong vehicle. More like people waiting for someone who pushes their button.

Edited March 27, 2017 by electric indigo

[Convectuoso]

For Chile (not sure if for the rest of latin america too) the title was translated "La Vigilante del Futuro", which translates "the Vigilante of the Future"

[sh9000]

I'm watching this movie for free.  Woo hoo!

[Dobber]

MAJOR spoiler image regarding the "white-washing" that is being discussed. It may answer what's going on but it is a spoiler.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Dobber

[Bariaburu Faita]

On 3/26/2017 at 0:20 PM, Thom said:

Was zoned out on IMGUR when I came across this.

 

This is a fairly typical reaction, as far as I`ve seen. Several other news and variety shows have done similar man on the street interviews asking people what they thought about Scarlet Johansen playing the part of the Motoko Kusanagi. For young people not overly familiar with the source material, they are mostly positive in those interviews.

I work in a factory in Japan, so I have a lot of coworkers in the 30-40 year old range that are mecha and anime fans. I asked around, and the reactions were mostly positive. The one negative, was from an older fan, who followed the original manga. He was upset that it looked too much like the anime, both movie and series. He considers those to be unfaithful to the original manga. But he was fine with Scarlet Johansen playing the part of Motoko Kusanagi.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Bariaburu Faita

[no3Ljm]

On 3/25/2017 at 8:20 PM, Thom said:

Was zoned out on IMGUR when I came across this.

Just in case anyone is interested to watch the original video of this 'interview'. Enjoy!

 

And to be honest, the key word to this entire thing is: Acceptance.

Peace!

 

[sh9000]

[Negotiator]

Wonder how crazy this would be in 3d

[Chronocidal]

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

MAJOR spoiler image regarding the "white-washing" that is being discussed. It may answer what's going on but it is a spoiler.

I don't know if the pun was intended, but bravo either way.

The thing that gets me with the whitewashing bit is that everyone assumes that the cyborg body the Major used was designed to look Asian.  I don't quite recall where I remember it from, but I was under the impression that both the Major and the Puppetmaster from the original film were actually using identical cyborg bodies, and the Puppetmaster's was very distinctly blonde-haired and blue-eyed.

Edit:

So.. I don't know if this is diving too deep, or thinking too hard, but it kind of occurred to me, upon reading a review that highlights a few of the philosophical issues discussed in the original 1995 film.  But the entire debate over the casting of the characters just seems rather oddly relevant to the film itself.

I need to re-watch the original to hear it myself, but one of the issues the Major discusses is whether it even means anything to claim any identity at all, being a cybernetic being whose self isn't necessarily attached to a physical body.  And by the end of the movie, I don't think she could be clearly defined as any particular nationality, race, or even species.

I don't pretend to think that Hollywood would ever think that hard about such a thing, but I have to wonder if Shirow is sitting back with a box of popcorn and reveling in the fact that the movie is creating such a debate over something so directly relevant to the subject matter itself.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Chronocidal

[Dobber]

Thanks

Good post too.

 

Chris

[electric indigo]

I still have that nagging feeling that the movie might actually go the other way round with the Major finding out about her "true" past identity, to make her character more relatable.

Or she is completely artificial and her past is a lie... does she dream of electric sheep?

[kajnrig]

9 minutes ago, sketchley said:

This perception applies equally to anime: it is fundamentally an art movement (as you said), but there are nuances of it being limited to only the Japanese expression of it.

I'm not art historian, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd argue there's nothing about the "Japanese expression" of anime that precludes it from being anime. Actually, it's precisely that expression, those ideas applied to animation that originated in the Japanese industry, that make it the movement that it is. To put it another way, the European Renaissance included distinct expressions that influenced and were influenced by other expressions of that movement. The French Renaissance, Italian, etc. etc. etc. all sort of fed into each other. Maybe it could be said that the "Anime Renaissance" started in Japan and "anime" ideas wormed their way into American animation, French animation, even Middle Eastern animation (apparently a show called "Torkaizer," never heard of it).

I dunno. Anyway.

 

5 hours ago, sh9000 said:

 

....ehhhhh.....

 

Is there tracking data on this movie at all? As in how well it's projected to do? As much as I'm railing against it, part of me does hope it ultimately does well, but that trailer doesn't fill me with much hope for its quality. It doesn't seem like general enthusiasm levels are all that high, either (what a shock), at least in America. It'll probably do better in China (and Japan? maybe?).

[Dobber]

Question, why is her head cloaking didn't THE Major have some sort of hood or veil when in the cloaking body suit so her head would disappear as well?

Chris

[kajnrig]

17 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Question, why is her head cloaking didn't THE Major have some sort of hood or veil when in the cloaking body suit so her head would disappear as well?

Chris

5:50 - Apparently yes. Visor and veil.

 

[Dobber]

That's what I thought.....and yet in the Live movie her head magically disappears without any coverage. Nit picky....sure, but it's the details that I always notice. 

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I'm not art historian, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd argue there's nothing about the "Japanese expression" of anime that precludes it from being anime. Actually, it's precisely that expression, those ideas applied to animation that originated in the Japanese industry, that make it the movement that it is. To put it another way, the European Renaissance included distinct expressions that influenced and were influenced by other expressions of that movement. The French Renaissance, Italian, etc. etc. etc. all sort of fed into each other. Maybe it could be said that the "Anime Renaissance" started in Japan and "anime" ideas wormed their way into American animation, French animation, even Middle Eastern animation (apparently a show called "Torkaizer," never heard of it).

I dunno. Anyway.

I agree with the point about influence from others, and to others.  We could say that anime is influenced by the early, major creators - such as Walt Disney.  In this context, GiTS, as an animation, is merely 'coming home'.  Or the inverse - Transformers: a Japanese show that spawned an American-made show, that in turn, spawned another Japanese show.

I think the best way to conclude this line of thinking is having a look at a previous generation of art influence - Katshushika Hokusai's Great Wave: http://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/story/20150409-the-wave-that-swept-the-world

So... now that I'm looking at it from the context presented in the article - this film is merely the latest evolution, or generation, of what's being going on in the art world for centuries.  Ergo: no whitewashing.

 

@Chronocidal: I think you hit the nail on the head.  Masamune Shirow was purportedly a high school teacher.  So, maybe GiTS (the manga) is his ultimate teaching tool. LOL

Edited March 28, 2017 by sketchley

[Nightbat]

Nope, still not feeling Scarlett Johannson as the Major, too short/stocky

(Tho I must admit, Shirow's drawn depictions of ladies aren't the most healthiest)

[electric indigo]

15 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

The thing that gets me with the whitewashing bit is that everyone assumes that the cyborg body the Major used was designed to look Asian.  I don't quite recall where I remember it from, but I was under the impression that both the Major and the Puppetmaster from the original film were actually using identical cyborg bodies, and the Puppetmaster's was very distinctly blonde-haired and blue-eyed. 

Somebody should have noted that the Major has bright blue eyes, too. The are featured quite prominently in Oshii's movie.

9 hours ago, Dobber said:

Question, why is her head cloaking didn't THE Major have some sort of hood or veil when in the cloaking body suit so her head would disappear as well?

Chris

She has no hood when she disappears in her jump from the building after the assassination in the anime. Artistic license at work here.

[trojan_gambit]

Just watched it this evening. 

Not disappointing, but nothing groundbreaking either.  If you've seen the anime, then (mostly) you know what to expect, except for some story adaptations (including why the Major is 'white')

I like the visuals though, haven't seen cyber-punk movie like this in awhile.

[505thAirborne]

3 hours ago, trojan_gambit said:

Just watched it this evening. 

Not disappointing, but nothing groundbreaking either.  If you've seen the anime, then (mostly) you know what to expect, except for some story adaptations (including why the Major is 'white')

I like the visuals though, haven't seen cyber-punk movie like this in awhile.

Lucky, did you go to an advanced screening? 

[trojan_gambit]

It's already normal screening in my country.

[Kurisama]

Saw it last night too, my spoiler free synopsis:

It drew from all iterations and weaved them together well enough. The trope of stolen identify was meh inducing, and the film itself felt quite mediocre for the first bit - BUT at a certain point (won't spoil) it suddenly felt Ghost-in-the-Shelly enough to make up for the beginning.

More than once I was grinning like an idiot due to fan service/spot on designs/nods to the original and just being beautiful.

I also felt they didn't go as deep philosophically as the originals, but that's the price you pay for a Hollywood release.

It was cool, I feel a sequel will do the source material justice.

[kajnrig]

This showed up randomly in my Youtube feed. Some info on the reviewers: One of them saw the original movie, the other didn't, neither have seen or read anything else GitS.

tl;dr = Falls far short of the original(s), but isn't an out-and-out trainwreck. Middle of the road, underwhelming (basically what I expected it to be, plus racism). Seems that's the opinion of most people here as well.

 

[Kurisama]

There isn't any racism FFS.

[azrael]

Mod note:

Drop the whitewashing discussion of this movie. That issue has played out in this topic. 

[kajnrig]

Dang. And I'd been working on a response to various points over the course of the last few days, too. Oh well then.

On 3/27/2017 at 6:24 PM, kajnrig said:

Is there tracking data on this movie at all? As in how well it's projected to do? As much as I'm railing against it, part of me does hope it ultimately does well, but that trailer doesn't fill me with much hope for its quality. It doesn't seem like general enthusiasm levels are all that high, either (what a shock), at least in America. It'll probably do better in China (and Japan? maybe?).

In trying to answer my own question, I came across this: http://movieweb.com/ghost-in-shell-movie-2017-box-office-predictions/

It's predicting a not too hot debut (10-15 million domestic) owing to competition from the likes of Beauty and the Beast and Power Rangers (though the whitewashing certainly doesn't help much either). It also had this press-release synopsis that isn't really spoiler-y but is enough so to warrant it, methinks. Bolded are parts that stuck out to me for better or for worse.

 

In the near future, Major (Scarlett Johansson) is the first of her kind: A human saved from a terrible crash, who is cyber-enhanced to be a perfect soldier devoted to stopping the world's most dangerous criminals. When terrorism reaches a new level that includes the ability to hack into people's minds and control them, Major is uniquely qualified to stop it. As she prepares to face a new enemy, Major discovers that she has been lied to: her life was not saved, it was stolen. She will stop at nothing to recover her past, find out who did this to her and stop them before they do it to others. Based on the internationally acclaimed Japanese Manga, "The Ghost in the Shell." The supporting cast includes Pilou Asbaek, Sam Riley, Michael Pitt, Christopher Obi and Takeshi Kitano.

Also of interest was this Forbes article, which focuses on the third trailer and potential box office numbers compared to other big March releases (with luck, it'll perform around the same as Lucy owing to ScarJo influence): https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/03/27/scarlett-johanssons-ghost-in-the-shell-gets-a-last-ditch-trailer/#448bc17445e9

Edited March 30, 2017 by kajnrig

[sh9000]

 

[hachi]

I have to watch the movies again tonight. It's already showing in theaters here. Can't wait for the weekend!

[Kelsain]

17 hours ago, Kurisama said:

Saw it last night too, my spoiler free synopsis:

It drew from all iterations and weaved them together well enough. The trope of stolen identify was meh inducing, and the film itself felt quite mediocre for the first bit - BUT at a certain point (won't spoil) it suddenly felt Ghost-in-the-Shelly enough to make up for the beginning.

More than once I was grinning like an idiot due to fan service/spot on designs/nods to the original and just being beautiful.

I also felt they didn't go as deep philosophically as the originals, but that's the price you pay for a Hollywood release.

It was cool, I feel a sequel will do the source material justice.

 

Thanks for the scoop. This relieves me a bit. I can't help but feel like this is 15 years overdue, though.

[sketchley]

BBC News has a review of the movie that puts it into a fairly decent light: http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170330-how-good-is-the-new-ghost-in-the-shell

Perhaps the most important part of that article is that the writer appears to be a fan of the series

Edited March 30, 2017 by sketchley

[seti88]

Was major george costanza in it?

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by seti88

[azrael]

Here's a question that shouldn't be spoilerish for those who have watched it. Are they calling her "Major" as to denote her rank as they have done so in the manga and anime, or is "Major" her bloody name?

[seti88]

i havent seen it buuut..http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1219827/ annddd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_(2017_film)

quite THE SILLY 

Edited March 30, 2017 by seti88

[Kurisama]

4 hours ago, azrael said:

Here's a question that shouldn't be spoilerish for those who have watched it. Are they calling her "Major" as to denote her rank as they have done so in the manga and anime, or is "Major" her bloody name?

Just denotes her rank.