The Spacy Thread

[Ghost Train]

In this thread: Discussions and eye candy on fictional space navies (SPACY), non-Macross of course, and no giant robots.

Likes, Dislikes, Favorites, least favorites, hilarious designs.

Fighters, Capital Ships, all fair game. Any scifi/anime/vg source.

I'll start off small, one of my favorite designs from Wing Commander. The beautiful Panther and Vampire fighters from WC Prophecy:

Src: http://wcmdf.solsector.net

Moving up in scale, I've had an infatuation with both SSV Normandy(s) from Mass Effect, though I really like the second a lot better.

Src: http://lazygamerproductions.com/class/Mass_Effect_Normandy_SR2.png

And to top things off... the Drake Battlecruiser from EVE:

[Mr March]

Caught me at a perfect time with this topic. I'll start posting some favorites and then talk about other topics in later replies.

I just replayed Homeworld 2 and while I didn't much care for most of the designs from the first game (despite the highly imaginative detail and coloring) I felt the creators were really onto something with their designs for the sequel. Granted, the higher polygon count in the sequel made a huge difference, but the mechanical designs in HW2 were refined with more practical sensibilities. Some stellar off-the-wall concepts and shapes. I like so much of the mechanical designs from that game, it's a bit too much to post all of it here. It's hard to choose favorites, but today I'd pick the space station Thaddis Sabbah, the Hiigaran Interceptor and the Vaygr Battlecruiser.

Speaking of Wing Commander really brings me back. Most of the designs have not aged well, but the Arrow still remains one of the best and most iconic ship designs from that PC game series. It's elegant and awesome in it's simplicity. Definitely a marquee mechanical design.

One of the things I love about the design of fictional spacecraft is the sheer uninhibited imagination that goes into most of them. Hit or miss, it's one of the areas of creative commercial design where you can simply throw out the most bizarre and imaginative of ideas and see what sticks. Even a spacecraft design from a terrible science fiction film or TV series can often outshine the actual production itself. Of course, there are classic designs from productions such as 2001: A Space Odyssey, Star Wars, Star Trek and such that are staples of sci-fi. But plenty of other fictional spacecraft can be impress, even something as odd and ugly as Serenity from the film of the same name and the TV series that spawned that film, Firefly.

[Kelsain]

What I love about Serenity is that it really appears to have been designed from the inside out. We need a big cargo bay, crew quarters, a big engine, a bridge and a lounge - go! Oh, and make it uglier than the Millennium Falcon!

I'll have to take a few minutes to gather a few of my favorites. One easy one is the Earth Force Starfury from Babylon 5. It ain't pretty, but it's one of the most practical space fighter designs in SF. Pilot lying prone to the main direction of acceleration, vectored thrust... Though the animation was primitive for the first few seasons, they really tried to make the combat very different from the aircraft-style dogfights that Star Wars really cemented in the genre.

[one_klump]

I'd have to add almost all the ships from Cowboy Bebop, and the Thunderbolt from Babylon 5.

Cowboy Bebop's ship designs were very straight forward with great design touches. If you looked at pretty much any ship from the show, you would be like "yeah, that would really work". Lots of little things like vernier thrusters at the right places, and no "up or down" design as well.

The Thunderbolt was a bigger, meaner Starfury. A straight up assault fighter. It even held external missiles and bombs.

[Ghost Train]

I'll have to take a few minutes to gather a few of my favorites. One easy one is the Earth Force Starfury from Babylon 5. It ain't pretty, but it's one of the most practical space fighter designs in SF. Pilot lying prone to the main direction of acceleration, vectored thrust... Though the animation was primitive for the first few seasons, they really tried to make the combat very different from the aircraft-style dogfights that Star Wars really cemented in the genre.

Love the starfury too, but even more the Starfury Thunderbolt

Edited September 4, 2010 by Ghost Train

[Mog]

The one thing I still love about the original 1978 BSG Vipers was the simplicity of the control-buttons on their flight-stick: FIRE, TURBO, and REVERSE.

Why is it so hard to find a pic of that control-stick online?!

[Dynaman]

In regard to Starfuries. If you want to see some improved animation of them check out B5 - The Lost Tales. It shows them with more modern CGI in an extended sequence. There is also a very short (5 seconds or so) battle "scene" that is very nicely done.

The show itself - B5 fans will generally like it, don't bother otherwise.

[Kelsain]

Love the starfury too, but even more the Starfury Thunderbolt

I concur! Almost posted that as well. I totally had myself an 18 year-old geek "ZOMG that's awesome" moment when the Thunderbolt debuted. (well, that was long before zomg...)

Edited September 4, 2010 by Kelsain

[VF-19]

How about the designs from the two Freespace games? Remember the Herc? Heck, remember the insane space battles with beams flying everywhere and you're in the middle of all of it, going "Please, please, please don't let me get pasted by a beam!!!!"

I love Freespace. And I love Freespace 2 open and all of it's updates.

[frothymug]

I LOVED FS2 as well and I considered posting some of the ships from that game on here. However, I sat there and thought "you know, they'd just debunk the game, due to its lack of Newtonian physics".

Regardless, the Herc and Herc Mk. II were excellent fighters. I was partial to the Ulysses and Perseus fighters. I also loved the Fenris/Leviathan destroyers and the Aeolus-class corvettes.

[reddsun1]

Trump card. Hah!

But I suppose sentimentality keeps me coming back to the sprite-based designs from the Wing Commander games. They had much more character than the later polygon based vers.

The stillborn WC: Pioneer fan-project showed they would have translated well to more modern rendering, as well.

Old-school Colonial Viper. Yeah, baby.

I'm surprised no eccentric fans have ever tried to build a full-scale replica. Apparently, the blueprints are readily available...

And of course, Cosmo Tiger and Black Tiger...

[VF-19]

I LOVED FS2 as well and I considered posting some of the ships from that game on here. However, I sat there and thought "you know, they'd just debunk the game, due to its lack of Newtonian physics".

Regardless, the Herc and Herc Mk. II were excellent fighters. I was partial to the Ulysses and Perseus fighters. I also loved the Fenris/Leviathan destroyers and the Aeolus-class corvettes.

At the time, most space sim games didn't deal with newtonian physics (the exception being the independence war series). I consider that to be a good thing, as it allows you to focus on the action. I used to load up my fighter with the Maxim cannons and blast away at the cap ships from a good distance. I really didn't like flak and anti-fighter beams...

Also, remember Starlancer? That was a pretty good game too.

[Mr March]

Okay as per the OP, time for a rant about a dislike with fictional space craft

Perhaps it's the attention to detail found in the Macross fighters that has spoiled me, but one thing that bothers me about fictional space fighter design is the lack of practical considerations like a HOTAS control scheme or even the mundane such as cockpits that fail to accommodate something as simple as all-around visibility. Granted, the case could be made that external cameras/internal monitors or virtual display of the external environment would make traditional all-around visibility via the cockpit (canopy) irrelevant. However, the fiction must explain all that. If we the audience/reader/player never see the inside of the cockpit for our fictional space fighter, I'm not bothered. However, once the interior cockpit is viewed, the fiction had best make sense or my suspension of disbelief suffers. Most of the classic space fighters (Star Wars, original BSG, etc) get a pass simply because practical detail was not a realistic consideration at the time or a failing due to limited budgets. Today, I accept no excuse for such laziness.

I'm not even bothered by silly technobabble or other such overlooked mistakes in space craft design. The reason details like flight controls or cockpit canopies bother me is because they are all visual. We see them again and again as the series/movie/video game goes on. Especially those productions that spend a lot of time inside the cockpit of the fictional space craft, poor design simply calls attention to itself over and over again.

The fighters of Battlestar Galactica Re-imagined particularly bothered me. Not only did their designs self-obscure pilot visibility, the cockpit interiors looked like they were informed by pre-1970s combat aircraft. So ridiculously anachronistic, even for a show specifically embracing a retro-technology style. For all the good those terrible cockpits did, the Vipers might as well have had propellers mounted on their nose

Anyway, I realize it's mulling on minutiae about space fighters, when fighters in space isn't even a realistic concept. But we're geeking out about space creaft and why we like or dislike certain designs. So that's my beef

Edited September 5, 2010 by Mr March

[Ghost Train]

Although I agree with what you say 100% Mr. March, I think some of the common-sense problems with space fighters can be attributed to simply the real-life era when said designs were conceived. The generation of designers who dreamed of the X-Wing and other the original Galactica vipers probably grew up in an era where actual military jets lacked improved user interface such as improved cockpit visibility and HOTAS.

For someone to have been a designer in the late 70's / early 80's, they would have probably grown up exposed to Vietnam war era military hardware, like the F-4 which has the traditional full-o-dials cockpit, and also predates the bubble canopies of the F-15 and F-16.

Having said, the designs from BSG reimagined are a bit of an issue. I can excuse the older Mk. II since in-story it's already a relic, but the Mk 7's cockpit visibility still looks inadequate. At least they tried to make it realistic by making the 7's more fly-by-wire and thus susceptible to the Cylon's e-warfare.

(Same can be said of the Strike/FP VF-1's )

Edited September 5, 2010 by Ghost Train

[frothymug]

I recently watched The Last Starfighter AGAIN, and this movie never gets too old or outdated for me. Too many awesome memories of watching this badass movie when I was a kid...

If any of you haven't seen it, it's a MUST-SEE. It's considered to be one of the "Top 10 Movies You've Probably Never Heard Of", imo.

[Wanzerfan]

I kinda like the Argo/Yamato from Starbazers/Starsip Yamato. (would that be considered a frigate in the Mass Effect Universe?)

I also like the Arcadia (Captatin Harlock/Galazy Express 999 Universe)

I know for sure that the Macross would be considered a Dreadnaught, becuase of the mass of the shop itself and that freaking fusion cannon from hell it sports.

[Mr March]

Ghost Train

For the most part I agree with your ideas, which is just one of the reasons I give the older classic designs a pass. But even after Star Wars, space craft design was already becoming more practically informed. As early as James Cameron's Aliens we started seeing space craft with more practical considerations. By now, I kinda expect more thought to be put into space craft design, especially since our generation is typically creating most modern sci-fi.

Btw, I doubt the pilots of FAST Pack equipped VF-1 Valkyries suffer any visibility issues since the entire inside of the cockpit is filled with volumetric images and other holographic tracking displays projected upon the canopy interior (a cockpit design motif that continues to be deployed even in the VF-25 Messiah in Macross Frontier)

[sketchley]

By now, I kinda expect more thought to be put into space craft design, especially since our generation is typically creating most modern sci-fi.

You're forgetting who actually decides these things: the producers and financers. The designers that you mention may actually be coming up with realistic, thoughtful designs, but the producers (often not including the director) are the people who may be the ones rejecting them, opting for designs that they think the viewer wants to see; which is generally what they want to see.

[Vifam7]

When it comes to fictional aircraft and starships, I like just about anything that follows the Space Battleship Yamato-line of thought. Which basically comes down to the following elements -

- a warship that follows the with gun turrets or a broadside gun battery

- a warship that clearly distinguishes which side is up and which side is down

- aircraft with a canopy or windshield, wings, and landing gears with wheels

Among my favorite space fighters...

Cosmo Tiger II

CoreBooster

Fighter-1 and Fighter-2

Too bad these fighters weren't highlighted in Gunbuster

[sketchley]

Too bad these fighters weren't highlighted in Gunbuster

Ahh... Gunbuster. That series is just LOADED with good ideas and interesting designs.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

For me, the #1 Starship design has always been the Executor class from TSEB. It has got such a unique sleekness to it.

I guess its partly because it was shot with a honking big real life scale model with 5000+ lights so it had that extra ommph which CGI only models can't yet replicate.

Don't like all the Expanded Universe ships from SW though (in fact, I hate most of the SW ship designs).

[Ghost Train]

Awesome fighter (and designs in general)... mediocre game

The Delta-Saber from Project Sylpheed:

This is the crap-game I always come back to, it was lacking just the extra bit of polish for it to have been a space-based Ace Combat.

[Graham]

The poor cockpit visibilty and lack of a HUD bugs me the most about most classic Western sci-fi starfighter designs.

Pretty much any star fighter from Star Wars is guilty of this. Not only do they have poor to lousy front visibility, but they have little to no rear visibility and then to top it all, the pilot has to look down into the cockpit to aim, losing his situational awareness.

Lack of a HUD, whether tradional glass panel, helmet (visor) mounted or holographic (Like many Macross VFs have), bothers me far more than lack of a HOTAS.

Even in new BSG, I don't think any sort of HUD or aiming symbology was ever shown or implied (correct me if I am wrong).

Graham

[Valkyrie Hunter D]

"Achtung, Einhander kommt! Drei Sekunden bis Kontakt..."

I'm still waiting for this venerable fighter to come out in some tangible 3-D form.

[Ghost Train]

Regarding my earlier comment about the VF-1 + packs: I certainly don't have the encyclopedic knowledge (other than what I've seen on screen) on a Valkyrie's UI, but I see it like this... the existence of advanced situational awareness tools (holo-displays, etc) is not a substitute or equivalent to having a good visibility cockpit.

It's like this - a good pilot can navigate or land an aircraft on instruments alone (sometimes with poor visibility it's the only choice)... but that does that mean he/she will rely on instruments 100% of other situations? Probably not. Being able to process information with your own eyes and digesting your gut feeling will always be part of combat decision-making.

So why not have excellent User Interfaces with great visibility and great instruments?

[anime52k8]

I actually think it's kind of unbelievable when space ships have big bobble canopies in shows that are trying to spin themselves as realistic.

a big piece of shaped glass would never hold up to the pressure difference between the cockpit and the vacuum of space.

[Lynx7725]

Surprised only one mention for the ISD... and for an SSD at that. For me, the ISD, Interdictors, and SSD from Star Wars is very iconic as far as space warships go. Not so much the squid ships though.

[Noriko Takaya]

Going old school here. Love both of these ships.

[Graham]

I recently watched The Last Starfighter AGAIN, and this movie never gets too old or outdated for me. Too many awesome memories of watching this badass movie when I was a kid...

If any of you haven't seen it, it's a MUST-SEE. It's considered to be one of the "Top 10 Movies You've Probably Never Heard Of", imo.

Err.............."Top 10 Movies You've Probably Never Heard Of",!!!!!?

Hardly, at least not for the many of us on this board that grew up in the 80s'!

Graham

[taksraven]

I'm not saying anything, heh heh.....

[VF-19]

The poor cockpit visibilty and lack of a HUD bugs me the most about most classic Western sci-fi starfighter designs.

Pretty much any star fighter from Star Wars is guilty of this. Not only do they have poor to lousy front visibility, but they have little to no rear visibility and then to top it all, the pilot has to look down into the cockpit to aim, losing his situational awareness.

Lack of a HUD, whether tradional glass panel, helmet (visor) mounted or holographic (Like many Macross VFs have), bothers me far more than lack of a HOTAS.

Even in new BSG, I don't think any sort of HUD or aiming symbology was ever shown or implied (correct me if I am wrong).

Graham

Hmm, now that you mention it, I don't remember any sort of crosshairs projected on the viewscreen of the vipers... Although, what the vipers could be using for aiming reticules are the old style WW2 projected gunsights. If your head isn't in the exact right spot, you aren't going to see a reticule. However, it's more likely that the animators forgot to draw one in...

[Dynaman]

I'm not saying anything, heh heh.....

I have the DVD for that, it's as bad now as it was then...

I recently watched The Last Starfighter AGAIN, and this movie never gets too old or outdated for me. Too many awesome memories of watching this badass movie when I was a kid...

If any of you haven't seen it, it's a MUST-SEE. It's considered to be one of the "Top 10 Movies You've Probably Never Heard Of", imo.

All in all, it was a terribly stupid movie. That's not to say I didn't have fun watching it though.

This would also be a film that would benefit greatly from new digital effects.

[Mr March]

Regarding my earlier comment about the VF-1 + packs: I certainly don't have the encyclopedic knowledge (other than what I've seen on screen) on a Valkyrie's UI, but I see it like this... the existence of advanced situational awareness tools (holo-displays, etc) is not a substitute or equivalent to having a good visibility cockpit.

It's like this - a good pilot can navigate or land an aircraft on instruments alone (sometimes with poor visibility it's the only choice)... but that does that mean he/she will rely on instruments 100% of other situations? Probably not. Being able to process information with your own eyes and digesting your gut feeling will always be part of combat decision-making.

So why not have excellent User Interfaces with great visibility and great instruments?

Just to clarify, this discussion is going beyond my initial criticism and into detail such as reaction time and situational awareness. I'm not concerned with such scrutiny, especially if it can't be quickly described visually. If some series/film/video game creates a space fighter without a traditional transparent cockpit canopy, all I need to see some BDI-like system or Wrap-Around Imaging system ala Macross Plus. The super robot cockpit if you will, for lack of a better term. A virtual environment display is an easy and visual way to substitute for the obvious lack of a high visibility cockpit. At that point, my suspension of disbelief is satisfied and the design can be embraced. If there's never any need to show the cockpit interior at all, so much the better. My imagination for necessity can fill the gaps in the fiction (like in the case of the Hiigaran Interceptor I posted from Homeworld 2).

Btw, the audience can see advanced tracking technologies onscreen in Macross, it's not some obscure written piece of trivia. My whole point was that a visual cue be provided to explain things to the audience without exposition. In Macross, enhanced technology is shown visually in the animation. In fact, as early as DYRL a scene depicts Hikaru gazing rearward in his VF-1 Super Valkyrie to see an enemy Reguld displayed upon the inside of his cockpit canopy despite being physically obscured from sight by a FAST Pack booster. Point is even in rare circumstances where the pilot's vision is obscured, the technology in Macross is there to pick up the slack. Is electronic tracking worse than direct line of sight in the Macross universe? I doubt it, given how well the Battroid can be piloted on electronic tracking only.

Digressing, I personally don't have any issues with pilot visibility in Macross since nearly all the Valkyries feature high-visibility cockpits by default. Even if a given piece of fiction does show the technology is wanting, I can usually substitute my own imagination in to take up the slack. It's when the viewer is hit over the head with a glaring problem in fighter design (to use Battlestar Galactica Reimagined as our whipping boy yet again) that it becomes difficult for me to ignore the issue and enjoy the physical design.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Mr March

[VF-19]

So, you then approve of the 360 cockpits from the later UC Gundam series (even if they don't appear to make sense some of the time)?

[frothymug]

Err.............."Top 10 Movies You've Probably Never Heard Of",!!!!!?

Hardly, at least not for the many of us on this board that grew up in the 80s'!

Graham

You would be surprised, dude. I don't think I've run into anyone around my age who actually has seen that movie, or even heard of it. Granted, this isn't a question that I ask to everyone I meet, but still... The few people with whom I've brought this subject up have no idea what I'm talking about.

Okay, so according to Mr. March, he wants to know about the realism of the design of the ships. I thought they did a good job in TLS, when they spent time to explain the intricacies of the gunnery chair in the Gunstars. There was even a part in the movie when he was tracking multiple targets and even though his vision was obscured by the ship itself, it still marked the targets with red boxes on his HUD.