Tron: Ares

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Big s said:

Sometimes a movie can make far more than it’s budget worldwide, but I guess other things like hardcore marketing can cost far more than the budgets  and I’d imagine that spending on that one was quite a bit. I remember a lot of commercials for it compared to the more recent film that seems to mostly just have a YouTube spot here and there. 

Sometimes, it's just that the producers oversold the movie's prospects in order to get funding and in so doing set the bar for "success" higher than was realistically achievable.

Sometimes, it's because someone else overpromised and underdelivered or just plain overspent and gave the executives cold feet. 

[TangledThorns]

Disney should check with this forum before they make another legacy film. I'm kinda sorta serious. 

[Dynaman]

The first thing they would have to ask is how to maximize profits.  With the movie business still going through the fallout from Covid and the unrelated drop off in Superhero box office (I think the drop off in Superhero movie take was due soon anyway) I'm not sure anyone can answer that.  From what I hear those that have actually seen the movie said it was decent and worth seeing at the theater - but getting people out to a movie takes more than that now.

[electric indigo]

You'd think that Tron is a pretty recognizable brand with unlimited merchandise potential across all ages. All it needs is a more compelling narration that A) roots it deep in the 80s retro game vibe culture or B) makes it more relevant in the recent tech/AI development background. Ares was neither, and the narrative failures finished it off IMO.

[Chowser]

Watched it opening night in 3D.  Yes I miss the OG actors and Legacy actors.  Not a fan of what they did to them, but it was a watchable movie.

I had the soundtrack a week before the movie came out.

 

[mikeszekely]

19 hours ago, electric indigo said:

You'd think that Tron is a pretty recognizable brand with unlimited merchandise potential across all ages.

And yet this is what they came up with.  At that price.

They're like a third of the way through the funding period, and they've got barely over 1000 of the 10,000 backers they need.  I think it's way overpriced... if these were retail figures, it'd be, what, $20 a pop for 3.75" figures, and say $40 per lightcycle (a bit high, but prices I might be willing to pay, for Flynn, Tron, Sark, and the lightcycles, but to heck with Yori and generic badguy program).  That's only about $180.  I definitely don't need a light-up base for $80 more.  Again, I'd have rather they had an actual Tron toyline with stuff from all three films... they I might get Sam, Quora, Ares, Athena, and Eve, a Legacy and Ares Lightcycle, one of those jet things Athena was flying around in, and some Recognizers.

[Big s]

32 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

And yet this is what they came up with.  At that price.

They're like a third of the way through the funding period, and they've got barely over 1000 of the 10,000 backers they need.  I think it's way overpriced... if these were retail figures, it'd be, what, $20 a pop for 3.75" figures, and say $40 per lightcycle (a bit high, but prices I might be willing to pay, for Flynn, Tron, Sark, and the lightcycles, but to heck with Yori and generic badguy program).  That's only about $180.  I definitely don't need a light-up base for $80 more.  Again, I'd have rather they had an actual Tron toyline with stuff from all three films... they I might get Sam, Quora, Ares, Athena, and Eve, a Legacy and Ares Lightcycle, one of those jet things Athena was flying around in, and some Recognizers.

Yeah, I’ve said in the 1/18th thread that these are way overpriced for what you get. The wheel on the front of the bikes don’t even roll. They’re simple no detail add ons to a small low detail figure. I still think the figure should be ten and maybe as a bike and figure set something like twenty to twenty five. I think they look cool, but not at the asking price 

[sh9000]

Hasbro's 6" Tron Legacy figures will probably not do well either.

[Magnus]

Which is a shame because I will buy every single one of those Legacy toys.  They look amazing. 

Tron Ares being a bomb could be seen coming from a mile away.  I sometimes feel like i'm on crazy pills when it comes to Hollywood.  

It seems so blindingly obvious what you need to do:  make a product that builds on the existing fanbase while bringing in new fans. 

You do this by having continuity throughout your films, not starting over fresh when you're already 3 deep.  Bring back the old actors.  Treat them with respect and care.  Bring in new, appealing characters that complement them, not override them.  Tell a fun story with no heavy-handed messaging.  These are kindergarten-level concepts. 

How are any execs at these studios actually getting paid?

[TangledThorns]

48 minutes ago, Magnus said:

Which is a shame because I will buy every single one of those Legacy toys.  They look amazing. 

Tron Ares being a bomb could be seen coming from a mile away.  I sometimes feel like i'm on crazy pills when it comes to Hollywood.  

It seems so blindingly obvious what you need to do:  make a product that builds on the existing fanbase while bringing in new fans. 

You do this by having continuity throughout your films, not starting over fresh when you're already 3 deep.  Bring back the old actors.  Treat them with respect and care.  Bring in new, appealing characters that complement them, not override them.  Tell a fun story with no heavy-handed messaging.  These are kindergarten-level concepts. 

How are any execs at these studios actually getting paid?

 

Sometimes I think its because of cocaine or money laundering. 

[mcfly50]

[Bolt]

Lol 

Just got back from seeing a matinee with my son. It was pretty fun on the big screen and wasn't as bad as i thought it might be. The soundtrack is absolutely great at volume and the visuals are too. The plot left a lot of room for sequel potential and other stories to continue. It definitely felt more like this was another story about the grid and not an actual continuation of Legacy. 

Spoiler

The only real connection is Encom but mostly in name.

All in all, well worth the matinee with my son. 

[Big s]

5 hours ago, Magnus said:

How are any execs at these studios actually getting paid?

I’ve been wondering this about almost every Disney production. The moment you think they may have learned a lesson, they go right back to messing things up again. Kinda like a junkie that seems like they may have turned things around after rehab and asks to borrow some cash, but it turns out that they just want to buy more smack. And once you think maybe they’ve reached rock bottom then they make Iron Heart

[M'Kyuun]

My wife and I went to see Tron: Ares this past weekend. It was neither great nor terrible, but I found it an enjoyable escape. It told its own story within the Tron universe with some nice homages to the original film and the briefest of references to Legacy. The visuals were certainly beautiful, as one would expect following Legacy. The mid-credits scene makes me hope this does well enough to justify a sequel, as what it promises has more to do with legacy than Legacy.

[TangledThorns]

Watched the original TRON on D+ last night and for the first time it felt dated and kinda lost my nostalgia for it too. I think ARES is to blame for that loss of nostalgia.  

[mechaninac]

50 minutes ago, TangledThorns said:

Watched the original TRON on D+ last night and for the first time it felt dated and kinda lost my nostalgia for it too. I think ARES is to blame for that loss of nostalgia.  

What modern Disney does to all IPs under its umbrella has that effect on all the OG stuff.  I, for one, find it extremely hard (more like impossible) to watch the original and prequal Star Wars trilogies precisely because of the extreme bad taste the sequel travesty has left in its wake; same goes for Marvel... not even the good stuff predating the Rat is any fun to watch anymore.  It's a real shame that in their arrogance they broke the chain of good will, wonder and nostalgia that built those franchises into the juggernauts they once were.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, TangledThorns said:

Watched the original TRON on D+ last night and for the first time it felt dated and kinda lost my nostalgia for it too. I think ARES is to blame for that loss of nostalgia.  

It’s kinda like that for Indy and Star Wars and Willow and even the early Marvel films that aren’t nearly as old. Once the mouse 💩s on things, it’s kinda hard to go back and enjoy things from better times.

[electric indigo]

We may not get another Tron movie, but we're moving closer to the Lightcycle.

 

[M'Kyuun]

11 hours ago, TangledThorns said:

Watched the original TRON on D+ last night and for the first time it felt dated and kinda lost my nostalgia for it too. I think ARES is to blame for that loss of nostalgia.  

Responding, too, to @mechaninac and @Big s's posts, sequels generally don't erode the enjoyment I feel for the original films. Tron, of course, looks dated; that's an inescapable fact, but it's also part of its charm and I'm not bothered by it. Same goes for many 80s movies oozing with practical effects, many of which don't look so great to the modern eye. Perhaps I've a greater tolerance than most, but I can still enjoy a lot of pre-CG sci-fi and horror films (Tron takes the prize for being one of the first heavy-CG films from the 80s, along with The Last Starfighter). I have a great deal of respect for the practical effects artists that conjured up ways to make writers' and directors' words and visions come to fruition in a tangible fashion for filming. It's becoming a rarer art these days, but there are still directors who choose to use practical effects over CG whenever possible, and I think it makes a difference when seeing a real model as opposed to a CG creation, be it a ship, a creature, a miniature cityscape, what have you.

Anyway, I hope someday you'll find your way back to the OG films without the bitterness of whatever company, director, studio, etc has done to sour your view of them and simply enjoy them for their merits. 

[Big s]

28 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

Responding, too, to @mechaninac and @Big s's posts, sequels generally don't erode the enjoyment I feel for the original films. Tron, of course, looks dated; that's an inescapable fact, but it's also part of its charm and I'm not bothered by it. Same goes for many 80s movies oozing with practical effects, many of which don't look so great to the modern eye. Perhaps I've a greater tolerance than most, but I can still enjoy a lot of pre-CG sci-fi and horror films (Tron takes the prize for being one of the first heavy-CG films from the 80s, along with The Last Starfighter). I have a great deal of respect for the practical effects artists that conjured up ways to make writers' and directors' words and visions come to fruition in a tangible fashion for filming. It's becoming a rarer art these days, but there are still directors who choose to use practical effects over CG whenever possible, and I think it makes a difference when seeing a real model as opposed to a CG creation, be it a ship, a creature, a miniature cityscape, what have you.

Anyway, I hope someday you'll find your way back to the OG films without the bitterness of whatever company, director, studio, etc has done to sour your view of them and simply enjoy them for their merits. 

I guess another example that predates the Mouse acquisitions would be the alien movies. I liked the first and second films, but the third movie kinda diminished my enjoyment of the second film. Knowing that everything was for nothing kinda made it less ent for me. I took a few years and try my best to pretend that they didn’t just ruin the ending to one of the greatest sequels of all time 

[TangledThorns]

17 hours ago, Big s said:

It’s kinda like that for Indy and Star Wars and Willow and even the early Marvel films that aren’t nearly as old. Once the mouse 💩s on things, it’s kinda hard to go back and enjoy things from better times.

 

18 hours ago, mechaninac said:

What modern Disney does to all IPs under its umbrella has that effect on all the OG stuff.  I, for one, find it extremely hard (more like impossible) to watch the original and prequal Star Wars trilogies precisely because of the extreme bad taste the sequel travesty has left in its wake; same goes for Marvel... not even the good stuff predating the Rat is any fun to watch anymore.  It's a real shame that in their arrogance they broke the chain of good will, wonder and nostalgia that built those franchises into the juggernauts they once were.

I have to agree with you that poor follow ups can kill nostalgia. Disney f'd up the SW sequel trilogy which impacts my love for the original and prequels. Even though Disney made up some, or a lot depending on who you ask, with Mandalorian and ANDOR it didn't help as they are a series so they felt outside the ream of cinema if that makes sense. 

That being said I rewatched Legacy and its just a way better film than ARES cinematic wise, so many beautiful shots. Kosinski was way ahead of his time. 

Edited Thursday at 02:02 PM by TangledThorns

[M'Kyuun]

7 hours ago, Big s said:

I guess another example that predates the Mouse acquisitions would be the alien movies. I liked the first and second films, but the third movie kinda diminished my enjoyment of the second film. Knowing that everything was for nothing kinda made it less ent for me. I took a few years and try my best to pretend that they didn’t just ruin the ending to one of the greatest sequels of all time 

Regarding Alien 3, it wasn't a bad film, per se, just not a good follow up to the excellent Aliens. Aliens is still one of my all-time favorite sci-fi movies and no matter who did the sequel, even Cameron himself, it would have proven to be a hard act to follow. That said, killing off Hicks and Newt right from the start after establishing them both as great characters who you care about, and whose importance to Ripley can't be overstated, was a gut punch that irrevocably tarnishes the film from the beginning. Both characters deserved a far, far better story, and certainly a better ending. The Alien franchise began its downward trajectory from there, unfortunately, which is why I don't watch post-Aliens films or give them much thought. I can compartmentalize Alien and Aliens into their own box of greatness and leave the chaff to float away on the winds of forgetfulness.

As to Star Wars, I'm still a fan of the OT- great films all, although I could have lived contentedly without Ewoks. IMHO, George f'd up the franchise with the terrible prequels [except for the fight with Maul, the awesome Duel of the Fates, the lovely Naboo N-1 fighter, the Vulture Droids (yay, official Star Wars transformers!), and the collective films' laying the groundwork for both Tartakovsky's and Filoni's Clone Wars cartoons, as well as Filoni's Rebels, Bad Batch, and The Mandalorian]. IMHO, while the prequels were trash, what they inspired colors my view of SW in a positive light. YMMV, of course, but I think those shows will stand the test of time and overshadow the films that inspired them. As to the post OT sequels, The Force Awakens is merely ok, but I'd rather they had stuck closer to Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire storyline. Rian Johnson threw a wrench in the whole works with his terrible The Last Jedi, and Abram's attempt to salvage the wreckage of the story he had planned for all three films culminated in the lackluster The Rise of Skywalker. It's hugely lamentable that Lucas didn't make the OT sequels throughout the 90s while the principal cast was still in their prime. Zahn had a good outline of events that would have complimented the OT well, IMHO, and it's a tragedy that Lucas didn't seize the opportunity and finish off his 9-part play back then with a far, far better story to give our heroes a better send off. Alas, what could've and should've been.

As to Tron, IMHO, the Tron: Uprising cartoon stands superior to both live action sequels. It was well-written, the VAs did an excellent job bringing the characters to life, the continued underdog-vs-evil governance story that started with Tron continued the OG film's legacy, Tron himself became a bit dark and gritty, which only elevated the show's maturity and appeal. So much goodness, so naturally Disney cancelled what was, and will likely remain, the best part of the Tron franchise besides the OG film itself, after only one season. It deserved at least another, and I would have loved to have seen a continuation into a third. It's just a damned good show. Alas, what could've and should've been.

[Bolt]

This talk of nostalgia kill is interesting. I remember feeling the same way about Aliens , when Alien 3 landed. And i felt the same way about Prometheus when Covenant came out. I've mostly associated that feeling with the Alien franchise, i guess. But all in all i won't let Dizney ruin my nostalgia for the OG SW or TRON . Though i do get why others would feel that way.

[mikeszekely]

Having forced my friend, who'd never see Tron, to watch both it and Legacy BEFORE we saw Ares, I can't blame Ares for killing any nostalgia I had for the original Tron.  Like, as a kid, the Recognizers and Lightcycles were cool, and I know I spent an afternoon throwing frisbees at my brother after catching Tron on TV.  But as much as I dig the Atari-era aesthetics and they way they imagined programs doing their thing like people doing jobs, the story was a plodding mess.  So much time is wasted on the human characters, especially the implied love triangle between Flynn, Alan, and Nora, that add nothing to the plot.  Watching Flynn in the games is cool, but then it's back to meandering.  Find Tron, and use Alan's code to take down the MCP?  Fine.  But no, they gotta drag in Yori, and they gotta stop and talk to Dumont, and Tron has to die but come back later... it's just boring at times.

[Dynaman]

I really don't understand the idea that a sequel can make someone dislike the original.  ( I was going to write more but that sentence really covers it all)

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

I really don't understand the idea that a sequel can make someone dislike the original.  ( I was going to write more but that sentence really covers it all)

It's pretty straightforward, really.

It's the same principle as when a public figure or family member is revealed to have done something really heinous and unforgivable.  It overshadows whatever else they might have done in the past, to the point that you can't really mention them without The Bad Thing coming up.  In this case, whatever the sequel did is so awful that the knowledge the story or characters are going to lead to that overshadows what they do in earlier works.

Like how people say the Star Wars sequel trilogy ruined Luke Skywalker, or Star Trek Picard ruined Jean-Luc.  Same thing.

I think Tron might be more susceptible to it than most, because the original was a fairly weak story wrapped around a cool concept and the sequels have relied heavily on nostalgia.

[Dynaman]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty straightforward, really.

It's the same principle as when a public figure or family member is revealed to have done something really heinous and unforgivable. 

The difference an original fictional work is in NO WAY lessened by a future movie (or book or TV season, etc...).  A "good" person found to really be a despicable person is an entirely different thing.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Dynaman said:

The difference an original fictional work is in NO WAY lessened by a future movie (or book or TV season, etc...).  A "good" person found to really be a despicable person is an entirely different thing.

If the original work and the future work were simply unrelated works by the same author that might be the case, but what we're considering here is essentially serialized storytelling.

If a later installment is really awful, that can end up coloring public perception of the previous installments.  Especially if plot developments or character progress in ways the audience receives particularly poorly.  Looking back at older installments after the newer one stinks up the joint can be little different to thinking back to times with that public figure or family member before everyone found out about The Bad Thing.  It taints your recollections.

I'm not saying you have to agree with it, I'm just explaining the mental/emotional reasoning behind it.

There's a really good example of this in action from just a couple years ago: Game of Thrones.  The series was a massive pop culture phenomenon that seemingly everyone was talking about for seven seasons.  Then Season 8 happened, and Game of Thrones vanished from the pop culture conversation practically overnight.  

[M'Kyuun]

20 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

The difference an original fictional work is in NO WAY lessened by a future movie (or book or TV season, etc...).  A "good" person found to really be a despicable person is an entirely different thing.

I share your POV. While I can understand the others' POVs as well and can see how a bad movie or six can ruin a franchise for some, I tend to just block the offending entries out and concentrate on my enjoyment of those parts that I like. For some, I guess that's not possible, or at the very least, very difficult.

[Big s]

4 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I really don't understand the idea that a sequel can make someone dislike the original.  ( I was going to write more but that sentence really covers it all)

I’ll use that Aliens, Alien 3 example again and with the great ending of Aliens she is absolutely triumphant in defeating the alien queen and rescuing a soldier and the child she had spent the entire movie protecting. It’s a perfect ending to one of the greatest action movies ever , but it’s all for nothing on a rewatch because we know that that wasn’t a victory, but a horrific fail. We unfortunately know that the soldier died after the child was torn open and that alone kinda kills the memory of that great movie that came before. Any time you rewatch aliens and you get to that ending, the memory of what happened next kills the joy. And that’s not all, you know everyone that survived dies in the next movie and no matter how much you try and ignore it, that thought pops back in at the ending of Aliens. 
Others might use the Tim Burton Batman as an example. That suit is so good until you realize that Batman is about to go through his nipple suit phase 

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

I’ll use that Aliens, Alien 3 example again and with the great ending of Aliens she is absolutely triumphant in defeating the alien queen and rescuing a soldier and the child she had spent the entire movie protecting. It’s a perfect ending to one of the greatest action movies ever , but it’s all for nothing on a rewatch because we know that that wasn’t a victory, but a horrific fail. We unfortunately know that the soldier died after the child was torn open and that alone kinda kills the memory of that great movie that came before. Any time you rewatch aliens and you get to that ending, the memory of what happened next kills the joy. And that’s not all, you know everyone that survived dies in the next movie and no matter how much you try and ignore it, that thought pops back in at the ending of Aliens. 
Others might use the Tim Burton Batman as an example. That suit is so good until you realize that Batman is about to go through his nipple suit phase 

This is where "headcanon" is effective.  The Alien series ends at the end of the second movie.*  Prometheus and its sequel are in an entirely different universe (nevermind whether one accepts Covenant or not).

I think Kawamori-san's philosophy is best: each production is unique to itself—a different interpretation of what actually happened in-universe.

I have happy memories of the original Tron, but I know I'll probably be disappointed if I watch it again.  This is less to do with the story and special effects per se and more to do with who I am now vs who I was when I saw it.  Tron Legacy on the other hand, is endlessly rewatchable.  Again, not for story or special effects—for Daft Punk's music!!! 😁

 

* I much prefer appending Dark Horse Comic's original "Aliens" comic in my headcanon.  It was the gorgeous all-painted full-colour series  that was released before Alien 3, and continued Newt's and Hick's story.

[tekering]

2 hours ago, sketchley said:

I have happy memories of the original Tron, but I know I'll probably be disappointed if I watch it again.  This is less to do with the story and special effects per se and more to do with who I am now vs who I was when I saw it.  Tron Legacy on the other hand, is endlessly rewatchable.

TRON: Legacy is superior to TRON in every important respect, just as Mark Verheiden's Dark Horse Aliens sequel was superior to anything the Alien franchise subsequently produced. 😒

[Thom]

Also of the mind that you shouldn't let a sequel destroy your love/fun of the original. To also use the Alien analogy, Alien/Aliens are still great movies with a hopeful ending, and everything after that, esp Alien 3, was either a dream or just bad fan fiction. For me, the franchise ended when Ripley told Newt that they could both dream and I still enjoy those movies so much.

The same for Picard or Tron. Tron and Tron Legacy, awesome and fun. Haven't seen Tron 3 (yet) but if it craps on the first two I'm just going to ignore it and keep the first two on my DVD shelf. And if people did not like Picard, then ignore everything with those characters after All Good Things... I've heard enough commentary comparing it to just fan fiction level anyway. To me, writing off something you've loved for years just because a sequel went off the rails, as it were, is kinda sad.

The originals haven't changed and I don't think people should let a bad sequel keep them from still enjoying what was, I'd assume, the very best of what it had been.

Just my two pence.

[Dynaman]

Aliens and Alien 3 are great examples.  The crappiness of A3 (or any of the other piles of garbage after) in no way diminished Alien or Aliens.  Does anyone here think the original Superman movie is in any way diminished by the dreck of Superman 3?

[Bolt]

16 hours ago, sketchley said:

This is where "headcanon" is effective.  The Alien series ends at the end of the second movie.*  Prometheus and its sequel are in an entirely different universe (nevermind whether one accepts Covenant or not).

I think Kawamori-san's philosophy is best: each production is unique to itself—a different interpretation of what actually happened in-universe.

I have happy memories of the original Tron, but I know I'll probably be disappointed if I watch it again.  This is less to do with the story and special effects per se and more to do with who I am now vs who I was when I saw it.  Tron Legacy on the other hand, is endlessly rewatchable.  Again, not for story or special effects—for Daft Punk's music!!! 😁

 

* I much prefer appending Dark Horse Comic's original "Aliens" comic in my headcanon.  It was the gorgeous all-painted full-colour series  that was released before Alien 3, and continued Newt's and Hick's story.

Yes indeed!