Thom Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Did you forget about the Borg cube? The one the Borg Queen rode in on? The one they're going to have to confront to get Jack back? Mind you, that may no longer strictly be true depending on how long those ships have been left alone in the care of the Borg. As we saw in First Contact, it doesn't take much for one Borg drone to start assimilating an entire ship and its crew. It wouldn't take much for the Borg to start properly assimilating all of those ships and their crews considering all the surviving crew are already drones minus the implants. They would just need to beam a couple drones over to each ship and within a couple hours they'd have to worry about actual Borg drones capable of conventional assimilations and armed with Borg weaponry and shields. Not to mention the Borg might have started upgrading those ships with proper Borg hardware. Probably the main reason they are heading back so fast, to try and keep ahead of that assimilation curve. And that's if this new type of Borg-tech can fully assimilate a person or if they need drones from the cube to do that, and if it is even there yet. 14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: If DS9 is any indication, she's a hell of a lot tougher than Galaxy-class tough and on more than one occasion was shown to fight on an even or superior footing against far larger ships. I don't expect the Enterprise-D to square up with that armada for the far simpler reason that she would get absolutely bodied by even one of those new, more advanced, far more powerful starships. The Enterprise-D was a heavyweight in her day, but her day was three decades ago and not only has she not had any upgrades she's literally been rebuilt with surplus and salvaged parts and still has visible damage from the crash landing that ended her the first time. We'll have to agree to disagree. I think we can both go twelve rounds! 😉 14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: It's pretty openly shown in the series so I'm not sure why you have trouble seeing it. ... Cause I don't see them as being miserable and or broken just because they are having a hard time. Sure, they have their moments, but more often than not, they pick themselves up again pretty quick, and often relying on their friends/crewmen in true TNG fashion. Such as with Riker and Troi, recovering from their son's death. I would personally not call that broken. Data is exactly way Soong intended this version to be. The Data we knew was killed in Nemesis and this one is conglomeration of all the previous variants. And as we saw in his scenes with Lore, Lore is definitely 'gone' in the sense that he is no longer a sentient part of Data, just as the remnants of Lal and B4 are. As for Geordi, how his mental state comes into question? He's an engineer and seems to have rightly settled right where he wants to be, in a job that allows him to work with one his daughters and apparently very close with his wife. And until there is some dialogue saying he feels guilty in any way about what happened to the Big D, I would be assuming he doesn't, or has long come to terms with it. The entire feeling I got about him rebuilding the D, or the rational, is that it has been labor of love and in no way some kind of recompense. Nor something clandestine or in secret. I would assume Starfleet Command was very aware of his side project, especially as there has been no intonation that is it on the 'sly.' Unless I missed a whole string of dialogue saying how it was all done in secret. And he even said he intended it as a future surprise. But seeing how he has been busy with his own life and family for the past twenty years, as happens, I can understand the others not being aware of it, esp if it was going to be a surprise. And as has been stated in another post, it's mostly all automated. So it's literally push a button and get on with other work. 15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: It's just an interesting note that, for some reason, the bridge was not restored to the state that it was in before the ship was destroyed. It was though, but to the series specification and the not the movie specification. 16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Considering what these ships are supposed to be for, you'd expect them to all still look like bright, open, pleasant places to be. These are not warships. These are diplomatic and exploratory ships that also happen to double as security force. The kicker of course is that we see other ships from the 2380s and beyond that still look like this. That are still bright and open and comfortable places to be. Just not in these shows. They're so obsessed with being gritty and dark that you almost miss those massive JJ Abrams lens flares. At least that was illumination. And though I would agree that they are not simply warships, I would say that they are more warship-like than in the TNG era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Thom said: Probably the main reason they are heading back so fast, to try and keep ahead of that assimilation curve. And that's if this new type of Borg-tech can fully assimilate a person or if they need drones from the cube to do that, and if it is even there yet. Given how it's described, it seems very unlikely that the Borg DNA is capable of assimilating a person biologically/anatomically too... it just seems to have connected everyone to the Borg hive mind. The cube probably needs to beam over several drones to get the ball rolling on fully assimilating all the mind-controlled victims. That said, given the sheer mind-boggling consistency with which the Borg Queen is left holding the Idiot Ball (or Idiot Sphere?) whenever she puts in an appearance I'd expect the show's rushed happy ending will involve her having conveniently forgotten to actually do this basic bit of due diligence and relied entirely on the Borg DNA to keep Starfleet crews under her control. 2 hours ago, Thom said: Cause I don't see them as being miserable and or broken just because they are having a hard time. Sure, they have their moments, but more often than not, they pick themselves up again pretty quick, and often relying on their friends/crewmen in true TNG fashion. Such as with Riker and Troi, recovering from their son's death. I would personally not call that broken. I'm not talking about just within the context of the show, where they're at least happy to renew acquaintence with each other... the backstories of all of them between the events of the Star Trek: Nemesis movie and the Picard series make it clear NOBODY has had a good time. Picard resigned in a huff and spent over a decade leading an aimless life doing an awful job of running the family vineyard, Riker and Troi became recluses and still (as in "during the show") haven't properly processed their son's death, Beverly spent twenty years living in fear of assassination in a rickety old ship she borrowed from Starfleet Medical, Geordi narrowly escaped death at Utopia Planetia and has since been resigned to working in a virtue sinecure at the fleet museum secretly rebuilding the Enterprise-D for some reason, Data's died three separate times now and the fourth Data is actually just Lore under the influence of Data's memories and without a head full of busted wiring, Worf had already been through more trauma than the rest of them before he lost the Enterprise-E... it's pretty ugly. The show's pretty unambiguous in declaring that these characters have not been leading happy lives between Nemesis and the present day. 2 hours ago, Thom said: As for Geordi, how his mental state comes into question? Where to start? Geordi is a survivor of the Utopia Planetia massacre, and would have had a front row seat to seeing an army of Soong-type androids destroy the shipyards where he worked, killing thousands and rendering the planet uninhabitable. His current assignment is a sinecure... a do-nothing posting as the curator of a museum. He spends his free time restoring the starship he was unwittingly responsible for the destruction of in secret. That doesn't strike me as a particularly healthy chain of events. (Not to mention he was already not in the best of spirits at the outset since his best friend died.) 2 hours ago, Thom said: And as has been stated in another post, it's mostly all automated. So it's literally push a button and get on with other work. The process of loading torpedoes is... nobody mentions drones in connection with the restoration work on the ship itself. 2 hours ago, Thom said: It was though, but to the series specification and the not the movie specification. That's the point though... it wasn't restored to the state it was in before the ship's destruction. He fitted a much older bridge module. 2 hours ago, Thom said: And though I would agree that they are not simply warships, I would say that they are more warship-like than in the TNG era. Eh... partially true? The new classes of starship that Starfleet developed after the Wolf 359 massacre were definitely engineered with a greater emphasis on defensive ability, sure. I'm not sure that's enough to say they're more warship-like. They're still engineered for space exploration and other peaceful operations first and foremost. That, and the later Dominion War, simply forced Starfleet to abandon the complacency they'd fallen into after making peace with the Klingons and striking an uneasy border agreement with the Romulans in the late 23rd and early 24th centuries. The only thing they've really done to make them more warship-like is stop sending civilians into harm's way... though even that seems to only apply to the ships operating in a defense role or deep space exploration role (given the alleged presence of children and schools on the Cerritos in Lower Decks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: You forgot the big one... DEATH IS IRRELEVANT. The Borg actually SAY that one in BoBW. I stand here ashamed at overlooking an obvious inclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: I'm not talking about just within the context of the show, where they're at least happy to renew acquaintence with each other... the backstories of all of them between the events of the Star Trek: Nemesis movie and the Picard series make it clear NOBODY has had a good time. Picard resigned in a huff and spent over a decade leading an aimless life doing an awful job of running the family vineyard, Riker and Troi became recluses and still (as in "during the show") haven't properly processed their son's death, Beverly spent twenty years living in fear of assassination in a rickety old ship she borrowed from Starfleet Medical, Geordi narrowly escaped death at Utopia Planetia and has since been resigned to working in a virtue sinecure at the fleet museum secretly rebuilding the Enterprise-D for some reason, Data's died three separate times now and the fourth Data is actually just Lore under the influence of Data's memories and without a head full of busted wiring, Worf had already been through more trauma than the rest of them before he lost the Enterprise-E... it's pretty ugly. The show's pretty unambiguous in declaring that these characters have not been leading happy lives between Nemesis and the present day. They've led lives. Have bad things happened? Sure, that's the drama of it. But to describe them as all broken and miserable, IMO, is a bit far. It leads to the impression that these are broken and old people who have laid down to die, when the opposite is what is happening. Picard starts off feeling so contented that he's yearning for adventure - which he gets. Sure, he then finds out that Beverly hid that they had a child and his son is dealing with the repercussions of his assimilation many years ago, but I have yet to see him being broken by that. Sad and angered, certainly, but a broken man is not likely to stand up and continue to fight, esp for his family. He is standing up and fighting. Riker and Troi are dealing with the loss of a child. I've never had to suffer that, but I'm sure I can fairly assume that it will never get easier or go away, but again, that does not make them broken or miserable. They are united and moving forward. Data seems quite happy. And yes, it is Data. (well, Neo Data.) There is a scene where we clearly see the Lore persona de-res because it is no longer a sentient part of his construct. As for Geordi, there has been no dialogue or scenes stating that he has ever had some kind of 'midlife crisis' or that he's working on the sly or absconding (stealing) starship parts, or hiding his activities and abandoning his family in favor of dealing with guilt that has never been mentioned. Yes, he survived Utopia Planetia but since he's worked on having a family, with two apparently well-adjusted children, and having a secure career in Starfleet working with what he loves; classic starships including the very one for which he has the most affinity to. And as for 'position sinecure,' how do we know this? Where was this stated? 43 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: The process of loading torpedoes is... nobody mentions drones in connection with the restoration work on the ship itself. They didn't not say it either. The truth of it is, we have no idea how the rebuilding of the Big-D was carried out, but since drones were mentioned it is not a far leap to assume that they were a big part in the reconstruction. 45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: That's the point though... it wasn't restored to the state it was in before the ship's destruction. He fitted a much older bridge module. I'm not seeing what the problem is there. IMO, so what? Consider Scotty. When he had the chance to once more 'step onto' the Enterprise in the holodeck, he did so with the TOS ship. Not the TMP. He did so with the style of the ship that he had the most affinity. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Geordi is the same way and just chose to model the ship during one of it's earlier configurations. And maybe the bridge module he was able to acquire came that way and he just decided not to alter it to exactly match the pre-crash look of the ship? 51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said: Eh... partially true? The new classes of starship that Starfleet developed after the Wolf 359 massacre were definitely engineered with a greater emphasis on defensive ability, sure. I'm not sure that's enough to say they're more warship-like. They're still engineered for space exploration and other peaceful operations first and foremost. That, and the later Dominion War, simply forced Starfleet to abandon the complacency they'd fallen into after making peace with the Klingons and striking an uneasy border agreement with the Romulans in the late 23rd and early 24th centuries. The only thing they've really done to make them more warship-like is stop sending civilians into harm's way... though even that seems to only apply to the ships operating in a defense role or deep space exploration role (given the alleged presence of children and schools on the Cerritos in Lower Decks). That the ships are far more powerful in defensive as well as offensive roles speaks to how they've shifted. Consider the Defiant and the technological refinements and breakthroughs that must have filtered out to the rest of the fleet from it. Yes, the primary role is still exploration and discovery, but we know those are wolves in sheep's clothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, JB0 said: I stand here ashamed at overlooking an obvious inclusion. Shame is irrelevant. You will comply. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: I wonder if that means he could regain his old body if they remove the Borg "seed" in it? If that's the case, then which one is Picard? Can't do that now, his old body was on the Shrike! 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: That depends on a few things, though the E-D has taken a bit of a beating and is cobbled together (albeit by Geordi). Also, Geordi does say her "hull needs a lot more work" amongst other things, so she's not in prime condition. But I suspect that blazing into battle wouldn't be the first thing they would do; even in her prime, she was not exactly a match for a Borg cube and won by subterfuge and strategy. I think 'cobbled' might be too harsh of a word. It's looks like the Fleet Museum has a fully capable shipyard inside of it. And the fact that he mentioned merely cosmetic problems, and with no mention (yet) of taking it easy on the old girl, speaks to the ship's apparent sturdiness. I would assume that the most of the work done was done just repairing the saucer. 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: While his relationship with his family may have been good, men do compartmentalize things. And Georgi probably compartmentalized the destruction of the E-D, blaming himself for the wreckage/ destruction of it. Yes, but that was over twenty years earlier. If he's not over that or has not dealt with it yet, then that would not speak highly to his mental state. BUT, there has been no dialogue or scene that even hints at that! He looks and acts well-adjusted and put together and very concerned about his daughter's safety. 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: I did! And it's off by six inches!! SIX WHOLE INCHES!!! That's like 2 milimeters on a 1/32 scale model bro!! I'd get my kitbasher's license pulled if I let that go!! This is an OUTRAGE! THIS IS A TRAVESTY!!! THIS IS... ..erm... uh... really bad Klingon Drama? Anyone buying any of this? In all seriousness though (I hope it's clear I was only clwoing around a moment ago!) : I pointed out about the plaque because folks had been making bones about "how exact the bridge was", when Picard looked like he shrank by nearly a foot! It should be burgundy. (runs) 🤣 It looks good. Very good in fact. Is it exact? No. but then again it's a rebuilt ship, and maybe the 'new' bridge module was slightly different in dimensions from the original Big D's? There are ways to explain it or just ignore it. My two bits anyway. 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: You mean like SNW? Well, since that's a prequel, would that be the Silver Age..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 6 minutes ago, Thom said: They've led lives. Have bad things happened? Sure, that's the drama of it. But to describe them as all broken and miserable, IMO, is a bit far. It leads to the impression that these are broken and old people who have laid down to die, when the opposite is what is happening. ... by all accounts, that's basically what Picard considered himself to have done in the entire first season. Season three retroactively made season one the same for Riker and Troi. Beverly spent twenty years apparently living in fear for her and her son's lives. This is well above and beyond the bounds of normal trauma and the regrets of aging. 6 minutes ago, Thom said: And as for 'position sinecure,' how do we know this? Where was this stated? It's more or less self-evident from his circumstances. Geordi La Forge is an active-duty Commodore. An officer of his rank would ordinarily be commanding a starship or starbase, serving as superintendant of a shipyard, occupying an administrative position in Starfleet Command, or joining the faculty of Starfleet Academy. Instead, Geordi's occupying a position that would ordinarily be held by a civilian historian: curator of Starfleet's version of a naval museum. Its out of the way, it's completely disconnected from the day-to-day operations of the fleet, and it doesn't even appear to have any security contingent of its own. It is, by any rational standard, a do-nothing job... which likely explains how Geordi had the free time to restore the Enterprise-D. Lower Decks actually offered an explanation of the flag officer career path in its attempt to explain why Starfleet Command seems to produce so many Insane Admirals. The flag officers only really have two options open to them: you either resign yourself to obscurity and irrelevance in some minor administrative role until you retire or you try to make your presence felt with some major contribution to the fleet. If you succeed in the latter case, you get promoted to a more important and relevant position. If you fail, you're the latest "Insane Admiral" to face a court martial. Geordi took the safe route and landed a quiet, out-of-the-way administrative posting to wait out his remaining service with as little actual responsibility as he could get away with. (Kind of the ideal last gig, really, since he should have the bare minimum number of direct reports to worry about and can possibly keep the same job in a civilian capacity after retiring from Starfleet.) 6 minutes ago, Thom said: They didn't not say it either. The truth of it is, we have no idea how the rebuilding of the Big-D was carried out, but since drones were mentioned it is not a far leap to assume that they were a big part in the reconstruction. That's quite a leap, though... from "drones can move cargo" to "drones can build starships". 6 minutes ago, Thom said: I'm not seeing what the problem is there. IMO, so what? Consider Scotty. When he had the chance to once more 'step onto' the Enterprise in the holodeck, he did so with the TOS ship. Not the TMP. He did so with the style of the ship that he had the most affinity. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Geordi is the same way and just chose to model the ship during one of it's earlier configurations. And maybe the bridge module he was able to acquire came that way and he just decided not to alter it to exactly match the pre-crash look of the ship? I'm just picking nits there, lol... normally when a decommissioned ship is acquired to become a museum ship, you try to keep it in the condition it was in when it was retired from fleet service (restoration work aside). 6 minutes ago, Thom said: That the ships are far more powerful in defensive as well as offensive roles speaks to how they've shifted. Consider the Defiant and the technological refinements and breakthroughs that must have filtered out to the rest of the fleet from it. Yes, the primary role is still exploration and discovery, but we know those are wolves in sheep's clothing. Yeah, but with few exceptions these ships aren't really carrying more weaponry than their predecessors. Quantum torpedoes seem to be the only new weapons development that's stuck around, while everything else is just newer, more powerful versions of the same phasers, photon torpedoes, and shields that Federation starships have been working with for 200+ years. In a few places (e.g. the Titan-A) it seems to have actually gone backwards with ships having fixed phaser banks instead of the more flexible phaser arrays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Hey @Thom. Absolutely beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pengbuzz Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 10 hours ago, Thom said: Yes, but that was over twenty years earlier. If he's not over that or has not dealt with it yet, then that would not speak highly to his mental state. BUT, there has been no dialogue or scene that even hints at that! He looks and acts well-adjusted and put together and very concerned about his daughter's safety. On that (and this is just from my own perspective😞 1) Having dealt with trauma (CPTSD), it can last for a lifetime; I still deal with stuff from 40 years ago that caused me tremendous harm emotionally. 2) While we haven't "seen" dialogue to that effect yet, I have seen in counseling groups where someone can seem "well adjusted", but be hiding some pretty deep scars down in their heart and soul. It's not that they cannot function, but there is stuff that is there which doesn't "go away" and is a daily challenge for them. Not trying to be picky and argumentative here; on the bright side, them bringing back the E-D gave me an excuse over the weekend to snap up 1 1/4000 AMT E-D at a flea market for 10 bucks (I'll post it in the Workbench thread in just a bit. ) ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Geordi La Forge is an active-duty Commodore. An officer of his rank would ordinarily be commanding a starship or starbase, serving as superintendant of a shipyard, occupying an administrative position in Starfleet Command, or joining the faculty of Starfleet Academy. Instead, Geordi's occupying a position that would ordinarily be held by a civilian historian: curator of Starfleet's version of a naval museum. Its out of the way, it's completely disconnected from the day-to-day operations of the fleet, and it doesn't even appear to have any security contingent of its own. It is, by any rational standard, a do-nothing job... which likely explains how Geordi had the free time to restore the Enterprise-D. Lower Decks actually offered an explanation of the flag officer career path in its attempt to explain why Starfleet Command seems to produce so many Insane Admirals. The flag officers only really have two options open to them: you either resign yourself to obscurity and irrelevance in some minor administrative role until you retire or you try to make your presence felt with some major contribution to the fleet. If you succeed in the latter case, you get promoted to a more important and relevant position. If you fail, you're the latest "Insane Admiral" to face a court martial. Geordi took the safe route and landed a quiet, out-of-the-way administrative posting to wait out his remaining service with as little actual responsibility as he could get away with. (Kind of the ideal last gig, really, since he should have the bare minimum number of direct reports to worry about and can possibly keep the same job in a civilian capacity after retiring from Starfleet.) That is a lot of speculation, and I have to say, how you see the characters makes me think we are watching two different shows! But even if that was so, there is no problem with Geordi quietly tooling away in his 'garage' with his collection of 'hot rods.' There are worse ways to spend your career, and if it means he has family time and the ability to rebuild an iconic ship from his past, then great for him. Of the entire ensemble, he comes off as the most secure and level-headed, and I have to ask, how many here would love to have his job? Again though, there has been nothing stating exactly what he does there. For all we know, there could be a string of repair yards in trailing orbit that he is in command of, though that too is now speculation on my part. 12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: That's quite a leap, though... from "drones can move cargo" to "drones can build starships". There's no leap at all, just a minor step further. Look at today's car factories, with an assembly line taking the in-progress cars past 'drones' that slap on their assigned part. Just turn the process around with the ship being stable and drones being able to move around it. And if they can load torpedos than then can slap in power transfer conduits and align magnetic interlocks. And as for examples, Discovery has some extremely capable repair drones set more than a century before this, and even TNG had the exo-xoms, and the drone Geordi remotely controlled while looking for his mother. 12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: I'm just picking nits there, lol... normally when a decommissioned ship is acquired to become a museum ship, you try to keep it in the condition it was in when it was retired from fleet service (restoration work aside). Agreed. And that looks true for most of the ships there. 12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Yeah, but with few exceptions these ships aren't really carrying more weaponry than their predecessors. Quantum torpedoes seem to be the only new weapons development that's stuck around, while everything else is just newer, more powerful versions of the same phasers, photon torpedoes, and shields that Federation starships have been working with for 200+ years. In a few places (e.g. the Titan-A) it seems to have actually gone backwards with ships having fixed phaser banks instead of the more flexible phaser arrays. Yeah, most of their tech is more a series of refinements on centuries old technology. Heck, even in the future they are all still using phasers and warp drive! But, there is the a big difference between a muzzle loading rifle and an M-16. They don't have to have more, and in fact you could probably have the Titan-A facing off against the Enterprise-A using only one phaser turret, and have it still come out the easy winner. In this instance, the quality of the weapons have improved dramatically. 10 hours ago, sh9000 said: Hey @Thom. Absolutely beautiful. Isn't it though?! There are some slight differences that just a different camera angle can't account for, like the curved railing, but it is really close! 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: On that (and this is just from my own perspective😞 1) Having dealt with trauma (CPTSD), it can last for a lifetime; I still deal with stuff from 40 years ago that caused me tremendous harm emotionally. 2) While we haven't "seen" dialogue to that effect yet, I have seen in counseling groups where someone can seem "well adjusted", but be hiding some pretty deep scars down in their heart and soul. It's not that they cannot function, but there is stuff that is there which doesn't "go away" and is a daily challenge for them. Not trying to be picky and argumentative here; on the bright side, them bringing back the E-D gave me an excuse over the weekend to snap up 1 1/4000 AMT E-D at a flea market for 10 bucks (I'll post it in the Workbench thread in just a bit. ) ! All true, and we have seen in the series that despite all their medical advances, there are people who just cannot adjust or get past those wounds. That's not to say that Geordi hasn't though. Yes, he is over protective of his kids because he recalls his own past and how many brushes with death he's come across, but I have not seen anything to say that he is not 'well-adjusted' or hiding any scars. For all we know, he goes to counseling sessions twice a week and maybe cries on his wife's shoulder in the night and talks to her about it all. To go back to an earlier point in this post, he comes off as one of the most well-adjusted and level-headed of the entire crew, and maybe because he has chosen (apparently) a quieter future for himself. Edited April 18, 2023 by Thom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pengbuzz Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 50 minutes ago, Thom said: Isn't it though?! There are some slight differences that just a different camera angle can't account for, like the curved railing, but it is really close! That's what I've been trying to tell them over at RPF, but folks won't listen (they make up all sorts of excuses!) Still, all things considered, it is a pretty good job overall. 50 minutes ago, Thom said: All true, and we have seen in the series that despite all their medical advances, there are people who just cannot adjust or get past those wounds. That's not to say that Geordi hasn't though. Yes, he is over protective of his kids because he recalls his own past and how many brushes with death he's come across, but I have not seen anything to say that he is not 'well-adjusted' or hiding any scars. For all we know, he goes to counseling sessions twice a week and maybe cries on his wife's shoulder in the night and talks to her about it all. To go back to an earlier point in this post, he comes off as one of the most well-adjusted and level-headed of the entire crew, and maybe because he has chosen (apparently) a quieter future for himself. I'll grant you that; Geordi going to Enterprise crewmen Anonymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgified Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Teaser for the finale is out. Looks like an updated version of BoBW since the title is “Last Generation”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Series finale promo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lechuck Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 On 4/16/2023 at 8:18 PM, Seto Kaiba said: I'm not sure that argument tracks. Sure, the Defiant didn't solo the Borg cube in First Contact... but then, it was never meant to. It was meant to fight as part of a fleet, and as a small escort warship aggressively min-maxed for combat it was meant to punch way above its weight class with disproportionately heavy armament and tank hits that would cripple or even destroy Starfleet's larger and less specialized ships so that it could hang in a fight as long as possible instead of being one-shotted. That's exactly what we see in First Contact, and in its prior appearnaces in the DS9 series. The Defiant was part of the fleet that intercepted the Borg cube and it hung on in that fight all the way to Earth, tanking hits from weapons that we'd previously seen one-shot Starfleet ships at Wolf 359 like a champ. So much so that she's noted to still be spaceworthy and repairable after the fight ends. The Defiant occasionally was shown struggling against Jem'Hadar attack fighters, but mainly because there are just so bloody many of them. Not sure what you are trying to tell me here? The Enterprise-D had to deal with a Borg cube twice on its own and held on damn well admirably. A starship design not intended for battle, no ablative armour, no pulse phasers and no quantum torpedoes to the rescue. It too was deemed spaceworthy and repairable by Starfleet after its battle. And as I mentioned above, if it were not for the suicide attack, we basically saw again how an unprepared Galaxy class would soak up a heck of beating to survive and still keep as much of the crew alive on that initial Dominion encounter and would later become Starfleet's most veritable and valuable asset in the Dominion war. I am not really questioning the Defiant's qualities, it has its place. I just don't subscribe to the dogma that only that ship is good enough for battle because "built for Borg". The Defiant is an option, but not necessarily THE option. Besides, why would a command crew not take the ship they know the ins and outs of best over a ship they've never set foot on (except Worf) - that makes no sense. I would think humans would function better in an environment that is more familiar to them. On 4/16/2023 at 8:18 PM, Seto Kaiba said: By the same token, let's also not forget the many times the Galaxy-class was depicted as a one-hit-point wonder in TNG or that newer classes like the Sovereign-class were developed specifically to address the Galaxy-class's deficiencies in a defensive role. It's probably even worse now, since the Enterprise-D is 30+ years out of date technologically and literally built from reclaimed garbage and war surplus parts. Drama effect? Defiant and Voyager weren't exactly immune to that either. And I never claimed that the Galaxy-class is unbeatable or could not be surpassed. Of course the Enterprise-D (or Galaxy class) without any current Starfleet tech. upgrades is going to have a tough time, but that basically applies to the museum piece Defiant as well. On 4/16/2023 at 8:18 PM, Seto Kaiba said: ... actually can we muse for a moment on how completely F'ed up it is that Geordi spent twenty years painstakingly reconstructing the Enterprise-D. If it were anyone else there would not be Unfortunate Implications, but as it's Geordi in a series that's depicted every member of the TNG cast as broken and miserable... is reconstructing the Enterprise-D for the Fleet Museum Geordi's way to "atone" for having inadvertantly caused the ship's destruction in Generations? How much time did Geordi take away from his family over TWENTY YEARS to painstakingly restore the totalled saucer section, replace the stardrive section, and repair the whole mess using salvage and war surplus parts? The crew are basically flying Geordi's midlife crisis project car into battle with the Borg. Pretty absurd musing if you ask me, not once did I get any type of inclination like this from Geordi these past couple of episodes. Broken? He has had a good Starfleet career, has a family, brought up and shaped his daughters as decent people. Sure there was that disagreement with career path of one of the daughters, but that's already been resolved and it wasn't a catastrophic breakdown in relationship. As for his Enterprise-D project – it's just a pastime that gave him fulfilment, pride and joy, nothing more and nothing less. Maybe it took the twenty years because he wasn't constantly at it and spending time with his family? Or it took time to source a star drive section... or the right computer core... or warp core...? And flying into battle with a ship that has been rebuilt with the heart and soul of its former main engineer can not really be a bad thing. On 4/17/2023 at 4:44 AM, Seto Kaiba said: If DS9 is any indication, she's a hell of a lot tougher than Galaxy-class tough and on more than one occasion was shown to fight on an even or superior footing against far larger ships. I remember the Defiant having a lot of trouble getting past a heavily upgraded Excelsior-class U.S.S. Lakota and only gaining the upper hand after some creative thinking. Now imagine the Defiant going up against a "fit for Dominion war" Galaxy-class of that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 4 hours ago, Thom said: That is a lot of speculation, and I have to say, how you see the characters makes me think we are watching two different shows! To be fair, I have the same feeling sometimes when you start talking about how cheerful they are... 😅 4 hours ago, Thom said: But even if that was so, there is no problem with Geordi quietly tooling away in his 'garage' with his collection of 'hot rods.' There are worse ways to spend your career, and if it means he has family time and the ability to rebuild an iconic ship from his past, then great for him. Of the entire ensemble, he comes off as the most secure and level-headed, and I have to ask, how many here would love to have his job? I'm not saying there's a problem with it, per se... but his assignment IS a dead-end posting which is generally not a sign of good times. 4 hours ago, Thom said: There's no leap at all, just a minor step further. Look at today's car factories, with an assembly line taking the in-progress cars past 'drones' that slap on their assigned part. Just turn the process around with the ship being stable and drones being able to move around it. And if they can load torpedos than then can slap in power transfer conduits and align magnetic interlocks. ... my good chum, have you ever been inside a modern auto plant? I've spent an awful lot of time in them, and I have to say you're assuming something that's untrue. Even today, almost none of the assembly work is actually done by robots. Using Ford DTP as an example, there are only really three jobs done by robots: spot welding body panels together after humans fit and align them, spray painting the undercoated body, and installation of the windshield. Everything else is done by humans... who are very much NOT drones, and will likely take exception to being referred to as such. (If you're ever in the Detroit area, DTP is actually open to the public via the Henry Ford Museum... just be sure to visit the tour on a weekday so you can see the plant in actual operation.) 4 hours ago, Thom said: And as for examples, Discovery has some extremely capable repair drones set more than a century before this, and even TNG had the exo-xoms, and the drone Geordi remotely controlled while looking for his mother. The Exocomps were a new and untried technology when they were introduced, and seem to have never come into common use after they were determined to be prone to develop sentience. Geordi's probe was a custom job. The Discovery repair drones are an anachronism, but even then we only get a good look at the 32nd century versions while the 23rd century ones are only shown repainting the hull. 4 hours ago, Thom said: Yeah, most of their tech is more a series of refinements on centuries old technology. Heck, even in the future they are all still using phasers and warp drive! But, there is the a big difference between a muzzle loading rifle and an M-16. They don't have to have more, and in fact you could probably have the Titan-A facing off against the Enterprise-A using only one phaser turret, and have it still come out the easy winner. In this instance, the quality of the weapons have improved dramatically. Warships would naturally be inclined to have more weaponry not just better weaponry. Weapons technology and related defensive technologies are naturally going to improve and be upgraded to keep pace with the current standard. 4 hours ago, Thom said: To go back to an earlier point in this post, he comes off as one of the most well-adjusted and level-headed of the entire crew, and maybe because he has chosen (apparently) a quieter future for himself. Or possibly because, unlike the others, he had an outlet to work through his personal demons called the Enterprise-D... where everyone else has either been dead, on the run, or just hiding out somewhere feeling sorry for themselves. 2 minutes ago, lechuck said: Not sure what you are trying to tell me here? The Enterprise-D had to deal with a Borg cube twice on its own and held on damn well admirably.[/quote] When? The Enterprise-D first faced a Borg cube that wasn't even trying and was massively outclassed in "Q Who". They only survived because Picard threw in the towel and told Q what Q wanted to hear about being in over his head. Then in "The Best of Both Worlds" they were still outclassed and unable to deal meaningful damage to Locutus's cube (which led to the Wolf 359 massacre) and only managed to survive through the use of Confusion-Fu to abduct Locutus and exploit a weakness in the Borg hive mind's software that, by accident, resulted in the cube self-destructing. 2 minutes ago, lechuck said: A starship design not intended for battle, no ablative armour, no pulse phasers and no quantum torpedoes to the rescue. It was actually the most heavily armed and most defensible starship Starfleet had at the time, and to the Borg it didn't even rate as a threat... which was its saving grace. And that was to the Borg three decades ago. 2 minutes ago, lechuck said: Besides, why would a command crew not take the ship they know the ins and outs of best over a ship they've never set foot on (except Worf) - that makes no sense. I would think humans would function better in an environment that is more familiar to them. Why would they trust their lives to a ship that's slapped together out of salvage over one that was never crashed into a planet and needs a lot less resources to run? There's familiarity and then there's practicality. The Enterprise-D is the familiar choice, the Defiant is the practical one. 2 minutes ago, lechuck said: I remember the Defiant having a lot of trouble getting past a heavily upgraded Excelsior-class U.S.S. Lakota and only gaining the upper hand after some creative thinking. Now imagine the Defiant going up against a "fit for Dominion war" Galaxy-class of that time. You missed an important detail. The Defiant did fight the recently-modernized Lakota to a standstill, but the Defiant was explicitly holding back and the Lakota was explicitly not. The Lakota's captain and crew had been told by Admiral Leyton that the Defiant had been commandeered by changelings and that they should destroy it at all costs. The Defiant's crew knew the Lakota's crew had been lied to, and were actively trying to minimize the damage to a friendly ship that'd been deceived into attacking them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lechuck Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: When? The Enterprise-D first faced a Borg cube that wasn't even trying and was massively outclassed in "Q Who". They only survived because Picard threw in the towel and told Q what Q wanted to hear about being in over his head. Then in "The Best of Both Worlds" they were still outclassed and unable to deal meaningful damage to Locutus's cube (which led to the Wolf 359 massacre) and only managed to survive through the use of Confusion-Fu to abduct Locutus and exploit a weakness in the Borg hive mind's software that, by accident, resulted in the cube self-destructing. When the Ent-D fired its phasers taking out a big chunk of Borg cube after initially being held by their tractor beam. Or when the stardrive and saucer section provided enough resistance to rescue Picard. I never said that the Galaxy-class could outright beat the Borg, but it was/is able to hold on to a certain point and not immediately fall over like you make it out to be. 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: It was actually the most heavily armed and most defensible starship Starfleet had at the time, and to the Borg it didn't even rate as a threat... which was its saving grace. And that was to the Borg three decades ago. I wonder if the Defiant was rated as threat by the Borg cube during First Contact, probably more like an irritating fly to them. 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: Why would they trust their lives to a ship that's slapped together out of salvage over one that was never crashed into a planet and needs a lot less resources to run? There's familiarity and then there's practicality. The Enterprise-D is the familiar choice, the Defiant is the practical one. Having familiarity with something IS practical. 1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said: You missed an important detail. The Defiant did fight the recently-modernized Lakota to a standstill, but the Defiant was explicitly holding back and the Lakota was explicitly not. The Lakota's captain and crew had been told by Admiral Leyton that the Defiant had been commandeered by changelings and that they should destroy it at all costs. The Defiant's crew knew the Lakota's crew had been lied to, and were actively trying to minimize the damage to a friendly ship that'd been deceived into attacking them. The finer detail to this is that the Lakota was actually also holding back, it wasn't until Admiral Leyton ordered Captain Benteen to go all out with their weapons that the Lakota stood down. Edited April 18, 2023 by lechuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: To be fair, I have the same feeling sometimes when you start talking about how cheerful they are... 😅 Well, I never said 'cheerful.' But despite the situation, they are able to share a camaraderie and joke with each other as a way to decompress and blow off steam or worry. Actually indicators of a good mind-set. 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: I'm not saying there's a problem with it, per se... but his assignment IS a dead-end posting which is generally not a sign of good times. So you would not want his job. Which is okay. But for Geordi, apparently it was a good assignment and I'm sure* one that is as probably chosen more than given. And it actually feels like a real evolution of his career from the moment he joined engineering. It's where he 'fits.' *I'm assuming here. Same as saying he has a 'dead-end' job.😉 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: The Exocomps were a new and untried technology when they were introduced, and seem to have never come into common use after they were determined to be prone to develop sentience. Geordi's probe was a custom job. The Discovery repair drones are an anachronism, but even then we only get a good look at the 32nd century versions while the 23rd century ones are only shown repainting the hull. But they were there and even as prototypes (in regards to the exo-coms) are highly capable. So when Geordi mentions drones, I also assume they are highly capable, multi-purpose machines and certainly capable of repair work. 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: ... my good chum, have you ever been inside a modern auto plant? I've spent an awful lot of time in them, and I have to say you're assuming something that's untrue. Even today, almost none of the assembly work is actually done by robots. Using Ford DTP as an example, there are only really three jobs done by robots: spot welding body panels together after humans fit and align them, spray painting the undercoated body, and installation of the windshield. Everything else is done by humans... who are very much NOT drones, and will likely take exception to being referred to as such. (If you're ever in the Detroit area, DTP is actually open to the public via the Henry Ford Museum... just be sure to visit the tour on a weekday so you can see the plant in actual operation.) ...my dude, it was an example. Though you are right, I have not stepped into an auto plant and witnessed how it is all done. (other than seeing it on TV) Though the intent of my post still stands, it is the future and why would anyone assume that if they have drones to move cargo why would they not have drones doing work in their repair yards? As to the bolded text, I never referred to human workers as drones and I would request that you stop reading what you want to read into what I write. 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Warships would naturally be inclined to have more weaponry not just better weaponry. Weapons technology and related defensive technologies are naturally going to improve and be upgraded to keep pace with the current standard. Which comes back to the point that these are not strictly warships, but are highly capable ships that are never-the-less able to fight and defend themselves. 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Or possibly because, unlike the others, he had an outlet to work through his personal demons called the Enterprise-D... where everyone else has either been dead, on the run, or just hiding out somewhere feeling sorry for themselves. Or just living their lives in retirement either making wine or cooking pizza, or bringing medical aid to fringe systems, or working to defend the Federation either on a starship or in Intelligence... What do you want them to have been doing? 7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: There's familiarity and then there's practicality. The Enterprise-D is the familiar choice, the Defiant is the practical one. Which brings us back to which series this is from. Just as you asked why the Changelings, if this does not have anything to do with DS9, then why choose a ship that had nothing to do with TNG? Also, @lechuck makes a good point in that familiarity is also a good reason to choose the Big D, other than just the robustness of its size. They know the ship and the limits of its capabilities, whereas only Worf would be familiar with the Defiant. There is another one as well. When Geordi was saying they were looking for a ship that was 'older, analog,' he left out the Defiant. And though they make reference to the Enterprise-E, I'm assuming they would not be able to use it for the same reason, seeing as it was even newer. The assumption there is that the Defiant would be just as susceptible as the assimilated fleet. Edited April 19, 2023 by Thom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 Seeing the Titan and Enterprise-D in action is going to be sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Thom said: But despite the situation, they are able to share a camaraderie and joke with each other as a way to decompress and blow off steam or worry. Actually indicators of a good mind-set. Which, come to think of it, is really out of place in the last episode. Starfleet's become Borg drones, the Federation's at the brink of doom, and they're cracking jokes about the carpet and missing their old chairs? (It's especially weird seeing Geordi banter with Not!Data, considering his daughters JUST got assimilated.) 2 minutes ago, Thom said: So you would not want his job. Which is okay. But for Geordi, apparently it was a good assignment and I'm sure* one that is as probably chosen more than given. And it actually feels like a real evolution of his career from the moment he joined engineering. It's where he 'fits.' *I'm assuming here. Same as saying he has a 'dead-end' job.😉 Someone who cared about their career would not want that job. Someone who's just running out the clock before retiring, however... Of course, given what he went through at Utopia Planetia, a posting to the arse end of nowhere managing a little-visited museum would probably be some blessed peace of mind. Especally if it came with little-to-no actual responsibility. 2 minutes ago, Thom said: But they were there and even as prototypes (in regards to the exo-coms) are highly capable. So when Geordi mentions drones, I also assume they are highly capable, multi-purpose machines and certainly capable of repair work, and I assume more than just paneling. That's a huge and unfounded leap though. The Exo-Comps were so capable and multifunctional because they were prototypes built so smart they became sentient. That's NOT comparable to a service robot, and we saw that Starfleet's kind of cooled on the idea of AI helpers after the Soong-type androids went berserk and burned Mars. Even then, they apparently needed something as complex as a Soong-type android to be practical assisting living workers at the shipyards. 2 minutes ago, Thom said: ...my dude, it was an example. Though you are right, I have not stepped into an auto plant and witnessed how it is all done. (other than seeing it on TV) Though the intent of my post still stands, it is the future and why would anyone assume that if they have drones to move cargo why would they not have drones doing work in their repair yards? It's also a point... people overestimate how much automation influences things like manufacturing. You're assuming that robots do a lot of the heavy lifting... but there's no evidence that's ever been the case. The Discovery had some robots capable of doing minor work like hull painting, but we're never shown a robot capable of assisting in actual starship construction. They were using Soong-type androids for that prior to them going berserk, but even then the staff we see is predominantly flesh and blood. Every shipyard scene we've seen in previous shows also had the work being done principally if not exclusively by living engineers. 2 minutes ago, Thom said: Or just living their lives in retirement either making wine or cooking pizza, or bringing medical aid to fringe systems, or working to defend the Federation either on a starship or in Intelligence... What do you want them to have been doing? Considering these are some of Starfleet's greatest living heroes and some of the most principled officers to ever don the uniform... something a bit more helpful to the galaxy and quite a lot less depressing than what we got. If not for the writers obsession with misery, you'd expect these characters to have gone on to be very important people in Federation society as many of them did in "All Good Things". Picard has presented the late 24th and early 25th century Federation as a pretty dark and miserable place and given how pivotal they've been in protecting the Federation's founding principles in the past it's not hard to get the feeling it probably wouldn't be that way (or at least not that bad) if they hadn't just given up the way they did. That's the single most out-of-character thing in the entire show... Jean-Luc Picard gave up and let his principled stand fall to bureaucratic indifference. But really, having all your childhood heroes be depressed senior citizens who've given up is kinda depressing in and of itself. (It's especially bad for Worf, who no matter what seems to always get a Happy Ending Override in every Trek universe. Whatever happened to him being Ambassador to Qo'nos and leading a happy life with his son as part of the House of Martok? I suppose we should probably count our lucky stars that Raffi hasn't started dating Worf, since Worf's girlfriends die violently with alarming frequency in the novelverse they've started cribbing from.) 2 minutes ago, Thom said: Which brings us back to which series this is from. Just as you asked why the Changelings, if this does not have anything to do with DS9, then why choose a ship that had nothing to do with TNG? If you're gonna build your TNG reunion on DS9, might as well go all-in. 2 minutes ago, Thom said: There is another one as well. When Geordi was saying they were looking for a ship that was 'older, analog,' he left out the Defiant. And though they make reference to the Enterprise-E, I'm assuming they would not be able to use it for the same reason, seeing as it was even newer. The assumption there is that the Defiant would be just as susceptible as the assimilated fleet. Which doesn't really make sense, given that there are MANY ships in the museum that shouldn't be equipped with the Fleet Formation system due to their age... but the Enterprise-D is the only one he mentions because that's the only thing the showrunners could think of. (They do imply the Enterprise-E could be used, had something not happened to it that Worf denies responsibility for.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pengbuzz Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 9 hours ago, Thom said: Also, @lechuck makes a good point in that familiarity is also a good reason to choose the Big D, other than just the robustness of its size. They know the ship and the limits of its capabilities, whereas only Worf would be familiar with the Defiant. There is another one as well. When Geordi was saying they were looking for a ship that was 'older, analog,' he left out the Defiant. And though they make reference to the Enterprise-E, I'm assuming they would not be able to use it for the same reason, seeing as it was even newer. The assumption there is that the Defiant would be just as susceptible as the assimilated fleet. 8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: Which doesn't really make sense, given that there are MANY ships in the museum that shouldn't be equipped with the Fleet Formation system due to their age... but the Enterprise-D is the only one he mentions because that's the only thing the showrunners could think of. (They do imply the Enterprise-E could be used, had something not happened to it that Worf denies responsibility for.) On that note gentlemen: something I'd like to point out and ask both of you (and please forgive my naivete on this): The Enterprise-D is capable of being operated by one person only, if necessary (as established in the show); this would mean that nearly all of the ship's systems would have to be automated. Additionally, the ship presumably has a prefix code that would be most likely still be in the Starfleet Archives (having been in Starfleet's care should the ship fall into a situation like Reliant did in STII:WoK. Since the Fleet Formation System™ seems to tap into the ship's computer to remotely control the vessel using the ship's own command and control system... ...what's to stop the Borg from simply hacking the E-D's computer, bypassing its' safeguards and taking it over anyways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pengbuzz Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said: It's also a point... people overestimate how much automation influences things like manufacturing. You're assuming that robots do a lot of the heavy lifting... but there's no evidence that's ever been the case. The Discovery had some robots capable of doing minor work like hull painting, but we're never shown a robot capable of assisting in actual starship construction. They were using Soong-type androids for that prior to them going berserk, but even then the staff we see is predominantly flesh and blood. Every shipyard scene we've seen in previous shows also had the work being done principally if not exclusively by living engineers. One thing I would like to point out IRL is that robotics are heavily used in modern shipbuilding: https://www.ship-technology.com/features/feature-the-digital-shipyard-robotics-shipbuilding/ So, even if not using androids or semi-sentient drones, much actual shipbuilding can be done by computer-automated robots. This would explain how Starfleet was able to recover as they did from the Battle of Wolf 359, though it takes time to crew any new ship especially when you lose a lot of experienced crew and commanders. All of that said though: it would still be one major heck of a note for Geordi to clandestinely rebuild the E-D: 1) Saucer/ Primary Hull: Even though they probably had the integrity and inertial damping fields "turned up to 11" when they crashed on Veridian III, the fact that the entire bridge center-section slid forward shows it must have failed near the last part of the "slideout". The TNG Tech Manual states that the damage would be expected to make the ship "irrecoverable" for any return to duty, so Geordi would have had to do a lot of replacement of hull trusses and panels (the hull itself is multilayered with the external ablative layer, actual hull, crystal attenuation layer, and internal environmental layer), as well as shorted out/ crushed/ shattered corridor piping/ wiring/ EPS taps, etc. 2) Stardrive/ Secondary Hull: With the engines and nacelles coming from the USS Syracuse (I assume they meant "secondary hull and nacelles"), 30+ years of service would still take their toll. The TNG Tech Manual states that the spaceframe is rated for a duty life of "100 years"; that is presuming that constant upgrades and maintenance are performed. With this in mind, the fact that these components were available about 1/3 of the way into the ship's expected service life means that something catastrophic happened to render the Syracuse inoperable and no longer viable for refit to return it to service. This would be more work for Geordi, as it would most likely include damage similar to the E-D's Saucer Section, as well as possible massive hull breaches and spaceframe member issues. The Warp Core alone would be of extensive concern, as any weakness or fault in it could spiral dangerously out of control in moments. Antimatter containment would be a tremendous issue, especially if the Stardrive Section were relegated for scrap rather than simply given a new saucer; that fact would state that the damage to the section disqualified it from any further service. That kind of damage would almost certainly influence multiple systems, including Antimatter storage. 3) Ship's Computers: There's also the issue of the computer cores in both the Saucer and the Stardrive: Saucer: with the damage from the crash-landing on Veridian III, the computer cores would have had at least some damage to them, to be certain. The FTL Nanoprocessors would each need to be checked and replaced (most economical would be total replacement with non-crash cores) before being trusted with any use. Stardrive: similar issues would be at play here, considering the damage that would take a Galaxy-class stardrive out of commission permanently would have at least some effect on the Engineering Computer core. Since this core directly controls all the aspects of starflight for the Secondary Hull and warp ops for the entire ship combined, its' function would be even more critical and thus be of primary concern. Combined ship: Being that two of the three cores would be from one ship (E-D) and the other from another ship (Syracuse), at least one of the computer cores would have to undergo some reprogramming in order to work with the other cores. Additionally, the cores would then have to run together for some time so the ship's combined computer system would learn to function as a whole ("burn-in time"). 4) Other Shipboard Systems: Considering the damage to both hulls (as well as the fact that even after 20 years, Geordi states that "the hull still needs work"), it's certain that much of the ship may not be in habitable condition, particularly in external areas near the outside of the ship. Add to that damage to the shield waveguides in the hull, damage to sections of the phaser array strips and/or photorp launch systems, as well as overall life support systems to boot. Overall: even with Geordi's expertise and his daughters assisting him, it would still be a massive undertaking to attempt anything like this. Without either a staff of people who were willing to keep LaForge's project in the strictest of confidence or a series of highly automated assembly robots and drones, a twenty year stretch would probably not be long enough to make much more progress than to get some of the systems nominally operational. EXTRA: I have a prediction to make for the last episode- Spoiler Allandra and Sydney's mom (Geordi's wife) is Leah Brahams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 hours ago, pengbuzz said: On that note gentlemen: something I'd like to point out and ask both of you (and please forgive my naivete on this): The Enterprise-D is capable of being operated by one person only, if necessary (as established in the show); this would mean that nearly all of the ship's systems would have to be automated. Additionally, the ship presumably has a prefix code that would be most likely still be in the Starfleet Archives (having been in Starfleet's care should the ship fall into a situation like Reliant did in STII:WoK. Since the Fleet Formation System™ seems to tap into the ship's computer to remotely control the vessel using the ship's own command and control system... ...what's to stop the Borg from simply hacking the E-D's computer, bypassing its' safeguards and taking it over anyways? Ah, yes... I made those same points in a couple earlier posts. TNG "The Wounded" and DSC "Terra Firma" confirm that prefix codes are very much still a thing on Starfleet ships even into the late 32nd century, so the possibility definitely exists for the Borg to simply run the Enterprise-D's prefix codes and tap into her systems remotely. It's been discussed a few times in connection with Wrath of Khan that the prefix code's override can itself be overridden, but Khan's lack of familiarity with the Reliant prevented him from doing so (because he wasn't even looking at the right console). Whether the writers even remember that this is a thing that can happen or not... well... it's going to be one elephant among many in the room for "The Last Generation". At the very least, it seems likely the Enterprise-D won't suffer the same kind of failures the original Enterprise did in Star Trek III because it's actually DESIGNED to be automated so heavily. 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: One thing I would like to point out IRL is that robotics are heavily used in modern shipbuilding: As with the auto plant example, the case here is rather overstated. Yes, robots are used in specific roles to assist in manufacturing and the amount of work they do (in terms of person-hour equivalence) is substantial... but they're only actually used in a couple of narrow roles. The exact same ones as in auto plants, coincidentally... structural welding, priming, and painting. The structural members to be welded are placed and aligned by humans, and all of the actual fittings and equipment that make the ship function are put in by humans. 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: So, even if not using androids or semi-sentient drones, much actual shipbuilding can be done by computer-automated robots. This would explain how Starfleet was able to recover as they did from the Battle of Wolf 359, though it takes time to crew any new ship especially when you lose a lot of experienced crew and commanders. ... you're missing a rather more obvious explanation. Starfleet may have lost 39 ships at the Battle of Wolf 359, but they lost zero shipyards and training facilities. Based on the content of various dedication plaques throughout the years, Starfleet in the 23rd/24th century has at least nineteen shipyards and a bunch of different campuses for Starfleet Academy. Ships lost at Wolf 359 were replaced by ships that were already under construction and new ships that were developed afterwards based on lessons learned, while the 11,000 officers and enlisted who perished in the battle were replaced by promoting existing officers and graduating recruits from the academy. 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: Overall: even with Geordi's expertise and his daughters assisting him, it would still be a massive undertaking to attempt anything like this. Without either a staff of people who were willing to keep LaForge's project in the strictest of confidence or a series of highly automated assembly robots and drones, a twenty year stretch would probably not be long enough to make much more progress than to get some of the systems nominally operational. I'm warming to a theme here, but there is (again) a simpler explanation right out of the tech manual you're referencing: Transporter and replicator spam. All Geordi would really have to work on directly would be the frame, the outer hull, and key systems. The bits that aren't (and can't be) replicated like the warp drive. Internal spaces like the bridge, the crew quarters etc. are modular by design and can be removed and exchanged for replacements, upgrades, or mission specific options by transporter and they're built using industrial replicators. Even the wrecked bridge is just a module that could be popped off and replaced... which is how the franchise has explained changes in set design between seasons since the 90's. After repairing the spaceframe and patching the hull, most of what Geordi would have to do is just beaming wrecked modules out and beaming in new or salvaged replacements then connecting them up to the EPS and ODN networks. There are some systems and materials that can't be replicated, but a lot of those are a part of essential systems like the warp drive that were noted to be salvage parts. 2 hours ago, pengbuzz said: EXTRA: I have a prediction to make for the last episode- Hide contents Allandra and Sydney's mom (Geordi's wife) is Leah Brahams. Oh, I hope not. Leah Brahms was a really creepy moment for Geordi... developing a crush on a hologram of a married woman and then having her find it and confront him about it. They got together in the novelverse, but it felt really creepy and unnatural there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB0 Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 12 hours ago, pengbuzz said: All of that said though: it would still be one major heck of a note for Geordi to clandestinely rebuild the E-D: So what you're saying is Geordi's finally become more of a miracle worker than Scotty? The legend would be proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 Ready for episode 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 On 4/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Someone who cared about their career would not want that job. Someone who's just running out the clock before retiring, however... Of course, given what he went through at Utopia Planetia, a posting to the arse end of nowhere managing a little-visited museum would probably be some blessed peace of mind. Especally if it came with little-to-no actual responsibility. That is a massive assumption. On 4/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Seto Kaiba said: That's a huge and unfounded leap though. Actually it's not. We can assume comfortably that their tech is advanced more than enough to make working/building drones a big possibility. We've seen anti-gran, manipulator arms and force fields used on the show. Again, not a huge leap from worker drones loading things to building things. On 4/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Considering these are some of Starfleet's greatest living heroes... ...doesn't mean they have to have an illustrious history following the show. They moved on. Some stayed in Starfleet and some not. And if they had been real people, with as much adventure as seen on the show, they would be burned out. On 4/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Seto Kaiba said: If you're gonna build your TNG reunion on DS9, might as well go all-in. But they didn't build it on DS9. No matter if the Dominion was from DS9, this is still a TNG-legacy show. On 4/18/2023 at 10:48 PM, Seto Kaiba said: Which doesn't really make sense, given that there are MANY ships in the museum that shouldn't be equipped with the Fleet Formation system due to their age... but the Enterprise-D is the only one he mentions because that's the only thing the showrunners could think of. (They do imply the Enterprise-E could be used, had something not happened to it that Worf denies responsibility for.) It's the one from the Next Generation series and movies, with a plausible explanation for its presence. For them to chose any other ship would have been odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Focker Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 It was good. Not really needed but good. Can we just wipe season 1 and 2 from existence? I think that's what this show tried to do. Episode isn't without its flaws. No cameos by half bro Wesley or Data's daughter. It did feel disconnected from the Changeling plot. Small spoiler the Titan is renamed. But like why? I think Titan's actions during the whole conflict proved itself worthy of starting its own legacy of ships being named after it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 52 minutes ago, Roy Focker said: It was good. Not really needed but good. Can we just wipe season 1 and 2 from existence? I think that's what this show tried to do. Episode isn't without its flaws. No cameos by half bro Wesley or Data's daughter. It did feel disconnected from the Changeling plot. Small spoiler the Titan is renamed. But like why? I think Titan's actions during the whole conflict proved itself worthy of starting its own legacy of ships being named after it. Because for the few things they did do right across 10 episodes they're still largely morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronocidal Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 Haven't watched it.. but judging by the clips I've seen, I never expected anything to make Shatner's self-insert fanfic novels look so believable by comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh9000 Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 I loved the entire episode. Spoiler The post credits scene was good. Looking forward to a spinoff. Season 3 blu-ray will be a definite purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgified Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 Ready Room with Wil Wheaton on Saturday. I’m guessing that a familiar face will be with him during the interview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 I'm satisfied with this ending. It doesn't remove the stink from the first 2 seasons, but I'm walking away happy from this season. Unlike The Mandalorian S3. 😒 That show's third season was a disappointment. Picard Season 3: 👍 However... Spoiler I'm gonna share @Roy Focker sentiment about Titan-A being rechristened as Enterprise-G. That doesn't seem very befitting to either ship's legacy. I also like to nod to Voyager's last episode. Or at least I hope that's a nod to Voyager's last episode. It's nice to know Adm. Janeway's sacrifice didn't leave the Borg unscathed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 On 4/19/2023 at 7:51 AM, pengbuzz said: ...what's to stop the Borg from simply hacking the E-D's computer, bypassing its' safeguards and taking it over anyways? Yes, Kahn was looking for the override but could not find it in time. I'm assuming the upgraded software that allowed the Borg to hijack the systems was circumvented. On 4/19/2023 at 8:55 AM, pengbuzz said: Overall: even with Geordi's expertise and his daughters assisting him, it would still be a massive undertaking to attempt anything like this. Without either a staff of people who were willing to keep LaForge's project in the strictest of confidence or a series of highly automated assembly robots and drones, a twenty year stretch would probably not be long enough to make much more progress than to get some of the systems nominally operational. With a fully operational and automated repair yard, as the museum (which I do believe was the original Starbase from the movies) has to have in order to get the job done, I don't think it would be that difficult. As for secrecy, there has been nothing said to say that Star Fleet was being kept in the dark about it, just that it was intended as a surprise for Picard and Co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pengbuzz Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, azrael said: I'm satisfied with this ending. It doesn't remove the stink from the first 2 seasons, but I'm walking away happy from this season. Unlike The Mandalorian S3. 😒 That show's third season was a disappointment. Picard Season 3: 👍 However... Hide contents I'm gonna share @Roy Focker sentiment about Titan-A being rechristened as Enterprise-G. That doesn't seem very befitting to either ship's legacy. I also like to nod to Voyager's last episode. Or at least I hope that's a nod to Voyager's last episode. It's nice to know Adm. Janeway's sacrifice didn't leave the Borg unscathed. It's also bad luck to rename a ship. One point they left though: Kirk's body is still in storage. So with that: I'm departing this topic permanently. As far as I'm concerned, TNG ended with All Good Things. Edited April 20, 2023 by pengbuzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 Well, Picard has drunkenly stumbled to its long-overdue and largely undignified conclusion. I know I won't miss it. It's not the complete dumpster fire I was expecting from Picard... but it's still an ugly mess full of weak and occasionally nonsensical writing that relies entirely too much on blatant fanservice. It reminds me of nothing so much as The Rise of Skywalker, with that uncomfortable, stilted, written-by-committee screenplay penned to accommodate bringing back a legacy antagonist because the writers couldn't think of another way to tie off the bloody stump of their story. Spoiler It's weird that this episode almost immediately reveals that going to get the Enterprise-D was largely unnecessary. Apparently all you need to do to disconnect the Fleet Formation system is break line of sight to other ships? Apparently literal eye of sight at that, since cloaking but remaining in the same position works. The few older Titan crew solve the problem of the assimilated skeleton crew by just beaming them into isolated compartments and locking them in. If they'd thought to go one step further and anesthatizing them using the environmental controls they would never have been able to break out and disable the cloak. Clearly the writers forgot the environmental controls were an option. It also turns out that this mass assimilation is limited to just the Sol system. The writers forgot the Federation has 150+ other civilizations in it, and that only a tiny part of the fleet is present for Frontier Day. The Borg were conveniently unable to properly assimilate any of the bio-assimilated drones or properly defend themselves from the Enterprise-D because all of their power is going to running Jack's mind control signal. Somehow, despite the Borg being able to effortlessly direct their hive mind across tens of thousands of light years at a time via their ships and space stations, covering ONE solar system is too much for them to handle, leaving them vulnerable. This conveniently means that nobody but Jack needs to confront the long-term consequences of Borg assimilation. The Borg Queen's gone full Darth Sideous too reduced to an obviously rotting carcass with exposed bones that's connected to a huge mass of cables and fueled by a desire for revenge and not much else. Picard saves Jack by pulling a version of the same stunt Jurati did in the previous season, he gets assimilated in order to talk to Jack directly via the hive mind and convinces Jack that he's just lonely and needs a family, so Jack somehow breaks free of the collective's control by will alone (that's not even close to how that works) and the two are saved by beamout just as the Enterprise-D destroys the cube from the inside in a similar manner to how Voyager destroyed a Borg ship in "Endgame". Then we get a happy finale set a year later where everything from the last season has been easily undone... everyone's been pardoned, the Borg DNA is being removed using the same transporter trick that put it in, the changelings are being rounded up, Spacedock's been repaired, Beverly's been reinstated into Starfleet, the season's token young character has joined Starfleet (Jack this time, Elnor last season), Raffi's family finally reconcile with her, Seven is promoted to Captain and the Titan is renamed Enterprise for some reason. And then they all play poker, like in "All Good Things". Oh and Q's back, because nonlinear time, to mess with Jack Crusher. All in all, the Borg's brief Villain Renaissance ended so quickly you'd question whether it ever truly began. They've received their most humiliating defeat yet and everything that's happened except the deaths has been conveniently undone in the space of less than a year. Even the stakes of the final confrontation turn out to be BS, with the writers forgetting that Earth is just the Federation capital, not the entire Federation the same way they forgot the Romulan Empire is more than just Romulus and the Klingon Empire's more than just Qo'nos. For a series finale, "The Last Generation" feels both rushed and oddly insubstantial. There's really not a lot here. There's a form letter confrontation with the Borg that repeats a lot of the same plot beats from last season, and then it's just over and the status quo ante is immediately restored. It's better than the previous two season finales, but that's damned by faint praise at best. If I were to sum it up in one word, it'd be "bland". It's not offensively bad, like seasons one and two... it's just... not laudably good either. It is a thing which exists. 2 hours ago, Thom said: Actually it's not. We can assume comfortably that their tech is advanced more than enough to make working/building drones a big possibility. We've seen anti-gran, manipulator arms and force fields used on the show. Again, not a huge leap from worker drones loading things to building things. That doesn't track with what's in the previous seasons of this very show... if such convenient drones existed, Starfleet would not be staffing its shipyards with massive numbers of Soong-type androids from Maddox's lab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted April 20, 2023 Share Posted April 20, 2023 32 minutes ago, pengbuzz said: One point they left though: Kirk's body is still in storage. Meh. It's just his remains they are keeping on ice. He's still dead, Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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