Macross Frontier Episode 20 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Xeros]

When she started singing already, in her mind she was saying "ittai" over and over again, and as it echoed, they cut to a scene of vajra renewing their attack (not that it stopped actually). that means "it hurts", right?

but you do have a point. who knows what grace has put into that song? besides, "susume susume frontier" sounds more like a battlecry than a lullaby, and that's grace's lyrics.

They actually stopped just a second, as if they're reading ranka's mind and continued attacking more fiercely

Regarding the song, the only thing that occurs to me is with the song she can read the emotion index

[Keith]

First reaction to this episode?

BULLSHIT!!

Not that I was the biggest Michel fan, more for Klan's sake, even I let loose a couple manly tears. Damn you Kawamori for lulling me into thinking they were finally going to get together, and as such were safe, damn you! I honestly don't them pulilng a Gamlin out on this one. Very nice episode overall though, hell, I'm listeining to Diamond Crevice now.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Keith

[Morpheus]

I also think that Ranka was hurt knowing that she and her song are being used as a tool to combat the Vajra, plus the shock seeing Alto with Sheryl add more damage. The Vajra respond to her emotion just like a bee hive scrambling to protect their Queen, they know something or someone is hurting their Queen and the seek for retribution. The same thing happen on Global, when the Queen is pierced by Brera gunpod, the entire Hive react and instinctively proceed to annihilate Frontier (due to Grace bait).

Hmm, Ranka will became Vajra Queen and thats make Alto the alpha male?

Edited August 22, 2008 by Morpheus

[Master Dex]

See... Michael's body gets frozen nearly instantly in space, and that takes care of the blood loss and massively slows the oxygen deprivation, allowing someone to pick his body up and revive him! It would certainly be more believable than the return of a certain individual who had his shattered helmet floating in space removed from the post-broadcast versions of the episode in which he "died"...

(on a side note, my understanding is that it is possible to keep someone alive with little long-term damage if you freeze their body VERY quickly, and are extremely careful about the defrosting)

Sorry man, I have to call you on that. While that bit about freezing someone and defrosting may be possible with the medical technology in 2059 there are a few things in this scenario that inhibit the idea. First thing is the brain needs oxygen constantly and if all the blood pathways are frozen, despite lack of air, then it doesn't get it. The ideas behind cryogenics state we'd need to replace blood with liquid oxygen while a body is frozen to keep the brain going while the heart isn't pumping.

The biggest is he was sucked into a vacuum. It isn't just that space has no air to breathe and it is cold, it has no air pressure. Long before his body could completely freeze his internal pressure will push outward with nothing to cancel it out. Due to decreased pressure his blood will begin to boil, and his the remnant air in his lungs will expand until the lungs themselves explode. By the time his body has frozen his lungs will have popped, his blood will have expanded through his skin and his open wound and he would not have any oxygen going to his brain so it would have shut down.

Sorry guys, the man is dead. But it was one of the most heroic deaths I've ever seen.

On a note about the cyborg people, if they found his body and augmented it as a cyborg, he would have been brain dead so any personality they make for the new robot body Michael would not be the man that sacrificed himself to save Klan, it would just be a programmed identity using a recycled body.

[sdf2501]

So, while I'm not surprised they killed off who they did (it made the most sense), was this explicitly foreshadowed way back in episode 15?

Is that pineapple salad?

Edit: Maybe not. The pan before the screenshot makes it seem like it's apple sauce. But one can't be too sure these days...

Edited August 22, 2008 by sdf2501

[Gubaba]

So, while I'm not surprised they killed off who they did (it made the most sense), was this explicitly foreshadowed way back in episode 15?

Is that pineapple salad?

Edit: Maybe not. The pan before the screenshot makes it seem like it's apple sauce. But one can't be too sure these days...

Let the pineapple salad go, man. Roy Focker was a long time ago.

[wolfx]

Do you know what they said about the dead SMS woman at the entry of the miclonization chamber? Does anybody has a pic of her?

Nothing...just michel going "WHY....WHY IS THIS HAPPENING".

I'm confused...was it her fault, or was that what "Aimo OC" was meant to do...? Are the Vajra responding to her emotions, or something Grace mixed into the song?

Vajra seem to react on Ranka's feelings while the song carry her feelings. The bigzams were waving their antennae around while she was singing What Bout My Star Formo....but turned violent immediately when she fell down and got emo, if that's not proof enough.

Sorry man, I have to call you on that. While that bit about freezing someone and defrosting may be possible with the medical technology in 2059 there are a few things in this scenario that inhibit the idea. First thing is the brain needs oxygen constantly and if all the blood pathways are frozen, despite lack of air, then it doesn't get it. The ideas behind cryogenics state we'd need to replace blood with liquid oxygen while a body is frozen to keep the brain going while the heart isn't pumping.

The biggest is he was sucked into a vacuum. It isn't just that space has no air to breathe and it is cold, it has no air pressure. Long before his body could completely freeze his internal pressure will push outward with nothing to cancel it out. Due to decreased pressure his blood will begin to boil, and his the remnant air in his lungs will expand until the lungs themselves explode. By the time his body has frozen his lungs will have popped, his blood will have expanded through his skin and his open wound and he would not have any oxygen going to his brain so it would have shut down.

Sorry guys, the man is dead. But it was one of the most heroic deaths I've ever seen.

On a note about the cyborg people, if they found his body and augmented it as a cyborg, he would have been brain dead so any personality they make for the new robot body Michael would not be the man that sacrificed himself to save Klan, it would just be a programmed identity using a recycled body.

You're forgetting that he may have survived the vacuum ala Britai (unlikely), he's not purely human having Zolan genes which seem quite hardy to vacuum and nuclear blasts (based on Graham from Dynamite 7) and the possibility that Brera who sortied but had no screentime actually saved him. I'm sorry, there's still many possibilities that he has survived despite your pessimism.

So, while I'm not surprised they killed off who they did (it made the most sense), was this explicitly foreshadowed way back in episode 15?

Is that pineapple salad?

Edit: Maybe not. The pan before the screenshot makes it seem like it's apple sauce. But one can't be too sure these days...

Its chopped apples....badly chopped ones.

[Graham]

This is probably wishful thinking, but possibly Michael could still be alive depending on how advanced the SMS X-Gear is.

The helmet may have some sort of automatic snap-down face plate for use in space with a limited oxygen supply. Like wise, the SMS flight suit could possible have self-sealing capabilities (like the colony domes), so pressure can be maintained.

The only flying in the ointment here, being that Michael was wearing his school uniform under the X-Gear, not a flight suit. Ah, and hang on didn't he lose his helmet? Have to rewatch the death scene.

The X-Gear may also have some sort of automatic medical nano that it automatically pumps into the pilots body in the event of serious injury, to keep him alive long enough until he can receive propermedical treatment.

But, Nah.............he's dead as a Dodo I reckon.

Graham

[sucker4meltrans]

i will never let that lovable womanizing alcoholic go! baddest MF to ever strap on a valk.

[dreamweaver13]

After watching IDEON (1980) I realised that the troubled 3 year pre-production of the original SDF Macross (1979-1982) paid off in the end. It shaped the whole franchise as perhaps one of the most Tomino influenced ones (Not that much in Macross Seven though). Waiting a lot can be actually good in the end, hehe...

I just realised something terrible... That perhaps the dead girl in the miclonization chamber entry was Nene with Raramia's haircut!!!!!!!

(Can't wait for the subs now...)

No, it's actually like this....

Shoji: whew. this is tough work. sad to kill of characters, but we have to. and for the next episode, we'll have to animate another SMS funeral, like the one we did for Raramia.

Assistant: umm... boss, we didn't animate one for Raramia...

Shoji: ... oh crrap. i forgot???

Assistant: yup. you were too hyped out about that scene where klan feeds pineapple salad to michael, that you completely forgot.

Shoji: yeah, that was so funny. sigh. oh well, how do we fix this... I KNOW! let's pretend that Raramia isn't dead...

Assistant: huh? but boss, we all saw her quedlun blow up; no way...

Shoji (not listening): and then let's add a scene where she's dead on the floor due to the vajra attack! and michael would be crying about it and all that, not knowing that he's next...

Assistant: boss, how the hell did she end up in this episode? she died way back in...

Shoji (still not listening): ... and that way, come episode 21, we'll have a twin funeral for raramia and michael!! and klanklan would be doubly mad! i am a freakin genius!! no wonder those fans call me a a god, or something holy or something like that...

Assistant: actually, that's the "Hory Froating Head", and i don't think that's meant to be...

Shoji (in his own world by now): i AM a god!! yes! and next time, and for ep 22, we'll have megaroad 1 show up! but in ep 23, we'll reveal that it's not actually the megaroad 1, but one of those random megaroads that i've never talked about before.... and then we'll have klanklan eating all sorts of pineapple and steak, but she'll survive! this is so amazing!! can't wait for my next cameo...

Edited August 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Valkyrie addict]

sh!t, I actually yelled angrily shocked when Michael got stabbed! but I was like... hey, it's 2050 something, I'm sure if he's taken in time they could save him and then bam, get's suck out to space... and Michael was such a cool character...bastard

anyway, great episode, I will still vote positive but I have one complaint, the animation was one of the worst thing I've seen in all my life, and I hate when such a great episode is animated so incredibly poorly, just awful, leaves me a bittersweet feeling of how such a good episode got ruined for me, for a moment I thought I was watching an animefriend SDFM episode... damn! I mean, the part were topless loli-klan confesses to Michael looked like if I was looking through one of those fun mirrors from carnivals that distort everything, so bad I wanted to gouge my eyes out

I just realized something, Ranka is Basara!! stupid bitch! 20 episode and she's still a little brat with next to no character development and people get killed cause of her and she doesn't give a sh!t

ack....angry that Michael got killed! :angry:

[wolfx]

Its funny that i'm optimistic in anime-supposed-deaths that i follow the anime-rule-of-death....characters are not dead UNTIL you see them actually DIE. For mecha pilots, usually its dismembered bodies in cockpit...exploding mecha (but even that these days its not guranteed...kira yamato..mwu la flaga i'm looking at you), or the character closing their eyes as they take their last breath. We have not seen these signs in Frontier ep 20 yet.....there are many possibilities still. Lets see some of that hope, guys.

I'm also professing the same for Code Geass'

Nunally which happens to be another "NOOOOOOOO" moment but i'm sure she's ok.

[polidread]

No, it's actually like this....

Shoji: whew. this is tough work. sad to kill of characters, but we have to. and for the next episode, we'll have to animate another SMS funeral, like the one we did for Raramia.

Assistant: umm... boss, we didn't animate one for Raramia...

Shoji: ... oh poo. i forgot???

Assistant: yup. you were too hyped out about that scene where klan feeds pineapple salad to michael, that you completely forgot.

Shoji: yeah, that was so funny. sigh. oh well, how do we fix this... I KNOW! let's pretend that Raramia isn't dead...

Assistant: huh? but boss, we all saw her quedlun blow up; no way...

Shoji (not listening): and then let's add a scene where she's dead on the floor due to the vajra attack! and michael would be crying about it and all that, not knowing that he's next...

Assistant: boss, how the hell did she end up in this episode? she died way back in...

Shoji (still not listening): ... and that way, come episode 21, we'll have a twin funeral for raramia and michael!! and klanklan would be doubly mad! i am a freakin genius!! no wonder those fans call me a a god, or something holy or something like that...

Assistant: actually, that's the "Hory Froating Head", and i don't think that's meant to be...

Shoji (in his own world by now): i AM a god!! yes! and next time, and for ep 22, we'll have megaroad 1 show up! but in ep 23, we'll reveal that it's not actually the megaroad 1, but one of those random megaroads that i've never talked about before.... and then we'll have klanklan eating all sorts of pineapple and steak, but she'll survive! this is so amazing!! can't wait for my next cameo...

where the hell are you in the philppines, so i can go and strangle you myself ?!?!? XD

[Master Dex]

dreamweaver13.... that is pure win!

You're forgetting that he may have survived the vacuum ala Britai (unlikely), he's not purely human having Zolan genes which seem quite hardy to vacuum and nuclear blasts (based on Graham from Dynamite 7) and the possibility that Brera who sortied but had no screentime actually saved him. I'm sorry, there's still many possibilities that he has survived despite your pessimism.

Dude, I'm not being pessimistic, I loved the character but if he were to survive after an amazing scene like that it would ruin it and mean nothing. They might as well hand get out of death free cards to everyone. Ozma got one, perhaps a special sale was going on then and he got freebies for the entire squad. Brera wouldn't care to save Michael, man I'd be surprised if Brera even knew the guys name.

*Brera out in VF-27 seeings Michael's body fly out of a hold in the side of the ship*

Brera to himself: "Hey... I know that guy. He is one of Ranka's friends... they all look the same. One of those SMS retards. I don't remember which one he is, nor do I care. He could die out in space like that, maybe for Ranka's sake I could save him, but Grace has me on a tight leash right now... Well let's see if he can be saved and then I'll decide."

*Brera goes in for a closer look*

Brera: "Ooh... no flight suit so the pressure is all gone, not a helmet or oxygen pack so he is suffocating... oh that is a big hole in his chest! Let's see, exploding lungs from pressure, blood boiling, freezing, giant hole in his chest with massive blood loss before he was in space... yep he's dead... definitely dead. I'd better move on...."

It's not meant to sound pessimistic. It is realistic. I truly hope he does not survive, otherwise the heroic sacrifice and the entire scene is just ruined and means nothing. Besides what could Brera do to save him at that point anyway even if he really cared as much as the unlikely scenario I depicted above?

[dreamweaver13]

hehe. i'm as happy-going as the next guy, but i don't want michael to be still alive. it will actually ruin the beauty of ep 20. it's not pessimism at all. it's just that things are perfect that way they happened. sad but perfect. (Harold Crick not dying changed the novel from the greatest of all time, to a mere good one. sorry for the movie reference).

anyways, here's that way i see it. sure, there's no overt and 100% anime-type sign that he's irrevocably dead, but the not so-subtle signs are there:

anime death level 1 = gutted with blood flowing out his mouth.

"meh, i've seen anime characters walk away from something way worse than that all the time."

ha! that's not enough for you huh? OK! anime death level 2 = in his condition, sucked out into the space, and the way back is blocked!

"damn. that's a clincher! hmmm... but then again, there's all this talk about freezing and compression and brera coming in to save the day..."

woah! optimistic little bugger aren't you? I don't want to be be crass about it and show michael bursting apart in space. so how's this.... anime death level MAX!!! = close up of michael's broken glasses on the floor!!!!! ORRAAA!!!!

"...damn. you win. RIP Michael Blanc."

Edited August 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[wolfx]

hehe. i'm as happy-going as the next guy, but i don't want michael to be still alive. it will actually ruin the beauty of ep 20. it's not pessimism at all. it's just that things are perfect that way they happened. sad but perfect. (Harold Crick not dying changed the novel from the greatest of all time, to a mere good one. sorry for the movie reference).

anyways, here's that way i see it. sure, there's no overt and 100% anime-type sign that he's irrevocably dead, but the not so-subtle signs are there:

anime death level 1 = gutted with blood flowing out his mouth.

"meh, i've seen anime characters walk away from something way worse than that all the time."

ha! that's not enough for you huh? OK! anime death level 2 = in his condition, sucked out into the space, and the way back is blocked!

"damn. that's a clincher! hmmm... but then again, there's all this talk about freezing and compression and brera coming in to save the day..."

woah! optimistic little bugger aren't you? I don't want to be be crass about it and show michael bursting apart in space. so how's this.... anime death level MAX!!! = close up of michael's broken glasses on the floor!!!!! ORRAAA!!!!

"...damn. you win. RIP Michael Blanc."

Broken glasses on floor is equivalent to seeing his dismembered head on the floor isn't it? Definately can't argue with that. I mean....vacuum is nothing to non-humans in Macross after all....so nothing short of a exploding mecha can kill our characters.

And you guys who think a character should stay supposedly-dead to retain the drama have too little imagination. His return would definately add more drama and even be a tear jerking moment if done right.

[mike_s_6]

Great Episode!!! Can't even start explaning how I felt when Mikael died, Did not see that coming at all, Poor Klan.

This is a great Show!!! did you guys notice the Macross F Final 10/16 announcement at the bottom of the screen at some point?? well, no season 2 for sure now, but after this episode you kind of knew that already. Kawamori I bow to you and your genius!!!

Actually, that announcement was for the Galaxy Tour Final, a Macross F concert.

http://gabrielarobin.com/288/kanno-yoko-pr...laxy-tour-final

[ATMacross]

Yeah the exo suit didn't save Alto's predecessor from eating it when he ejected from his plane and the Vajra caught him......*squish* *clink* *clink* *clink* *splosh*

They should have killed Luca off and then have his brothers pull some wicked LAI weapon out and clean house.

*sigh*...how am I gonna sleep tonight....crying, that's how.

[dreamweaver13]

Broken glasses on floor is equivalent to seeing his dismembered head on the floor isn't it? Definately can't argue with that. I mean....vacuum is nothing to non-humans in Macross after all....so nothing short of a exploding mecha can kill our characters.

And you guys who think a character should stay supposedly-dead to retain the drama have too little imagination. His return would definately add more drama and even be a tear jerking moment if done right.

i just share my sentiment or opinion on the matter, and you call me a person with "little imagination"? what's with that?

anyways, just to clarify, that fictional dialogue (between writer and audience) was not supposed to be taken seriously. it was tongue-in-cheek, and was not meant to be an argument against your opinion.

but yeah... broken glasses with spotlight (yes, the spotlight is crucial!) = dismembered head. hehe.

Edited August 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Valkyrie addict]

damn it, why....why....why they had to kill off Michael....

[Morpheus]

Errrr, hellow guys, President Glass is dead, his body is full of bullet holes in his lying on a pool of blood.

Next episode: Memorial service for Michel.....I mean late President Glass.

j/k to stop flame war on Michel ultimate demise.

[wolfx]

i just share my sentiment or opinion on the matter, and you call me a person with "little imagination"? what's with that?

and to clarify, that fictional dialogue (between writer and audience) was not supposed to be taken seriously. it was tongue-in-cheek, and was not meant to be an argument against your opinion.

Nah don't take it personally. I called all you "realists" ppl with little imagination, not particularly you. Chill.

And yes i tongue-in-cheeked-you-back since u were being sarcastic.

As far as vacuum is concerned though, yes Michel didn't have his helmet nor his pilot suit so his survival only hinges on something or someone saving him as he was sucked out. He has only 10-20 seconds before he dies for sure.

[dreamweaver13]

And yes i tongue-in-cheeked-you-back since u were being sarcastic.

yup, got it after rereading. fixed.

Edited August 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

Errrr, hellow guys, President Glass is dead, his body is full of bullet holes in his lying on a pool of blood.

Next episode: Memorial service for Michel.....I mean late President Glass.

j/k to stop flame war on Michel ultimate demise.

funny how no one seems to be bothered about glass' death. that random SMS raramia lookalike (or is she a mere lookalike? wink wink) got more talktime than the president.

[Holocause]

When the spacefighting was ensuing and I saw Canaria's Monster starts extending its arms for conversion I was hoping we'd finally get a glimpse of battroid Konig... alas, denied.

[wolfx]

Just thought i mentioned this shot in the preview :

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...review%2001.jpg

The helmet that Klan is hugging was not worn by Michel during his "death". He and Alto wore the EX-Gears without their flightsuits and helmet. And i guess she is in the cockpit of his VF-25.

[Morpheus]

Just thought i mentioned this shot in the preview :

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...review%2001.jpg

The helmet that Klan is hugging was not worn by Michel during his "death". He and Alto wore the EX-Gears without their flightsuits and helmet. And i guess she is in the cockpit of his VF-25.

But I don't think Klan will use his VF-25G, I hope Sheryl will....

[UN Spacy]

Why didn't Klan go commando and wrestle those tiny Vajra?

How long is she supposed to be inside that chamber until she reaches macronization?

Would she have died if the process was interrupted?

[Kronnang Dunn]

I still can't understand how some of you ppl can't accept the fact that Michael is just dead...

Did Roy ever came back? No...

Michael won't too...

.

.

.

.

.

.

The End

[dreamweaver13]

But I don't think Klan will use his VF-25G, I hope Sheryl will....

go sheryl!! take over piloting the Blue Lion, err, the blue VF25!!

if sheryl does start to pilot, i bet you she'd be better than kakizaki. that way, he would still remain on the bottom of the list.haha.

[dreamweaver13]

How long is she supposed to be inside that chamber until she reaches macronization?

Would she have died if the process was interrupted?

as to time, there's a thread discussing that, and i don't think there's a definitive answer.

i'm guessing she can't get out. i suppose the chamber has a safety lock in place to make sure that user does not step out prematurely.

[Shaka_Z]

As far as vacuum is concerned though, yes Michel didn't have his helmet nor his pilot suit so his survival only hinges on something or someone saving him as he was sucked out. He has only 10-20 seconds before he dies for sure.

actually, if he was 100% human, he would have about 30 seconds before he went unconscious, another 30 seconds tops before the alveoli in his lungs started to rupture, and perhaps one more minute before that damage would be irreversible - this has been proven by NASA testing back in the 60's and 70's. the results were pretty much constant, without regard to body mass, and it was found that attempting to hold one's breath under those conditions would only hasten the damage... forcibly exhaling was found to actually help for a few seconds. sorry to burst everyones bubble, but things like blood boiling, seeping thru the skin etc do not happen, although brief periods of exposure might subject one to a dangerous case of the bends, as nitrogen in the blood would escape thru the skin. the most dangerous thing to surviving vacuum exposure is the lung damage as even if the victim is returned to atmosphere, they would no longer be able to absorb oxygen - some kind of direct infusion would be required, and the human brain can survive for about 5 minutes without oxygen and not suffer critical damage.

so, given that Michael is not fully human, it is possible that given his injuries he might be able to survive vacuum for perhaps as long as an uninjured human might - I wouldnt count on any more than that.

[wolfx]

Another reason why Mihairu should not die:

Not only has he done some investigation on Witchcraft 639, but he also knows what Luca and LAI are up to. He even spoke to Luca not to "fly solo" and that they were team mates on episode 19, (which was quite death flaggy) so he should still be alive to at least explain his findings to someone.

Unless of course he leaves it all in some data disk where Klan and gang discover after his death.

[dreamweaver13]

where the hell are you in the philppines, so i can go and strangle you myself ?!?!? XD

haha, i'm actually near marikina city, so i guess i'd better start having a personal body guard from now on (not that it did President Glass any good).

[dreamweaver13]

Another reason why Mihairu should not die:

Not only has he done some investigation on Witchcraft 639, but he also knows what Luca and LAI are up to. He even spoke to Luca not to "fly solo" and that they were team mates on episode 19, (which was quite death flaggy) so he should still be alive to at least explain his findings to someone.

Unless of course he leaves it all in some data disk where Klan and gang discover after his death.

psst. it's in his helmet. shhhh.