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Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 7 - READ 1st POST


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Mission 7: Infiltrate Enemy Line  

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Would it be safe to presume that the VF-171 is currently an obsolete model and therefore only used by outer rim planets at the moment? Perhaps inner worlds and colonisation fleets would be using something else.

Yes and no.

Yes, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is technically an obsolete model because a number of fleets and planets have started to deploy the next-generation fighters that were developed to replace it. No, we can't safely presume that it's only used by the outer rim system garrisons at Macross Delta's "present day". 5th Generation variable fighters were still in development or pre-adoption low-rate initial production and operational evaluation with all but one of the emigrant fleet/planet NUNS garrisons we've seen or been told about circa 2060. Just a few years further down the road, I'd expect that many governments would just be starting to evaluate the idea of adopting a 5th Generation Valkyrie or, at best, would be in the very early phases of transitioning their forces to those new fighters.

Each fleet or planet's government has more-or-less a free hand in deciding how to arm their NUNS defense forces, so rates of adoption will vary. Some were not using the VF-171 at all, having opted to use an air force composed entirely of unmanned fighters. Those garrisons will likely pursue a new unmanned fighter with 5th Generation VF-equivalent capabilities rather than go back to putting pilots on the front lines. Other garrisons possibly adopted other fighters instead of using the VF-171, like how Macross Galaxy's corporate army publicly used a local variant of the VF-19C (and some upgraded versions of older General Galaxy VFs in the novelization of Macross Frontier). Many of those garrisons, and many of those that adopted the VF-171, may not see any significant reason to upgrade to a 5th Generation VF if they aren't facing a tangible threat from a foe that would require the improved performance of a 5th Generation VF to oppose (like the Vajra or the Aerial Knights). Some more recently-established emigrant worlds or less wealthy fleets may not be able to afford the 5th Generation VFs, and would keep flying their Ghosts and VF-171's for another decade or two.

Can't tell if we are seeing the VF-171EX at the moment, someone will need to check on the Ex-gear seat.

Alberto Larazzabal's VF-171 does not appear to be equipped with EX-Gear.

The M7 Zola example of VF-5000s were not local UN garrisons though.

Yes, those were export-model VF-5000's (and the one export-model VF-19) that were sold to Zola's local security forces. It appears that, in 2047, Zola did not possess a (N)UNS garrison force, possibly due to the nonviolent emphasis of the Zolan culture.

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Yes, those were export-model VF-5000's (and the one export-model VF-19) that were sold to Zola's local security forces. It appears that, in 2047, Zola did not possess a (N)UNS garrison force, possibly due to the nonviolent emphasis of the Zolan culture.

You sure? Zola has a Galaxy Patrol. Isamu joined one once according to his record.

Galaxy Patrols unlike the typical UN Forces if we go by Zola are law enforcement.

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Yes and no.

Yes, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is technically an obsolete model because a number of fleets and planets have started to deploy the next-generation fighters that were developed to replace it. No, we can't safely presume that it's only used by the outer rim system garrisons at Macross Delta's "present day". 5th Generation variable fighters were still in development or pre-adoption low-rate initial production and operational evaluation with all but one of the emigrant fleet/planet NUNS garrisons we've seen or been told about circa 2060. Just a few years further down the road, I'd expect that many governments would just be starting to evaluate the idea of adopting a 5th Generation Valkyrie or, at best, would be in the very early phases of transitioning their forces to those new fighters.

Each fleet or planet's government has more-or-less a free hand in deciding how to arm their NUNS defense forces, so rates of adoption will vary. Some were not using the VF-171 at all, having opted to use an air force composed entirely of unmanned fighters. Those garrisons will likely pursue a new unmanned fighter with 5th Generation VF-equivalent capabilities rather than go back to putting pilots on the front lines. Other garrisons possibly adopted other fighters instead of using the VF-171, like how Macross Galaxy's corporate army publicly used a local variant of the VF-19C (and some upgraded versions of older General Galaxy VFs in the novelization of Macross Frontier). Many of those garrisons, and many of those that adopted the VF-171, may not see any significant reason to upgrade to a 5th Generation VF if they aren't facing a tangible threat from a foe that would require the improved performance of a 5th Generation VF to oppose (like the Vajra or the Aerial Knights). Some more recently-established emigrant worlds or less wealthy fleets may not be able to afford the 5th Generation VFs, and would keep flying their Ghosts and VF-171's for another decade or two.

Further to Seto's point. The Galaxy Alliance members could be using all sorts of Valks of various generations. So much would be dependent upon their economic affluence, the potential threats in their regions, if they host a Spacy garrison or not, if they are developing their own variant of the NUNS specs. We could see variants of the VF-11 through VF-29 on colony worlds and fleets if they choose to go down that route.

The Chaos Task Force appears to be a Federally funded Merc group (like the other regional ones in the Galaxy) with all the latest toys at their disposal to deal with the Var threat. Hence the VF-31 fighters, holo-suits, etc... I suspect Chaos would be the closest we'll see to a Federal force using the latest in OTEC advancements. MF and MG developed their own fighter variants from the YF-24 specs and we've learned from other media that NUNS does not share all the bleeding edge tech with colonies. So in effect, we have no idea what a Federal VF-24 would actually have had under the hood in 2059.

Edited by Zinjo
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You sure? Zola has a Galaxy Patrol. Isamu joined one once according to his record.

Galaxy Patrols unlike the typical UN Forces if we go by Zola are law enforcement.

Zola had the "Zola Patrol", which was their local police force... equipped with export model VFs and purely non-lethal weapons.

The UN Spacy Galaxy Patrol was/is something different.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Face it they turned one of the greatest anime franchises into a comedic series featuring cute girlie girls. It can still be fun to watch (like this episode) but the Macross you remember is gone.

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Face it they turned one of the greatest anime franchises into a comedic series featuring cute girlie girls. It can still be fun to watch (like this episode) but the Macross you remember is gone.

I used to think that but in reality Macross series' are a product of the market trends of their day.

SDFM came at a time when MS Gundam showed that serious, well researched space operas could be popular. Most of the mecha shows in the 80's were gritty.

M7 came with a J-Pop dominated story (I suspect partly because Mac II & Mac Plus were not as popular in Japan as they were in the West-hence serious mecha drama was waning in the market)

MF came with a mix of J-Pop and Mecha drama, a 25th Anniversary show which tried to draw from all the previous productions. The music contributed to the success as much as the drama.

MD has come with all the trappings of the current anime market to maximize the profitability of the show for the sponsors. That's Entertainment... B))

Edited by Zinjo
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Face it they turned one of the greatest anime franchises into a comedic series featuring cute girlie girls. It can still be fun to watch (like this episode) but the Macross you remember is gone.

I fully disagree with this assessment. I mean it is not like Macross hasn't had levity before (even in the original series, granted it was downplayed a lot). Macross 7 was way more lighthearted but still had some pretty dark moments. To me Delta if anything is so far the perfect balance of all the best elements of the last 3 series. Got Frontier's political intrigue and high tech, there is elements of the original series' consequences of war in just the last episode (plus the fact that everything is world built based on SDFM), and it has the lighter toned fun music of M7, with a little more of the effects from Frontier's music (even if it loses the Kanno awesomeness).

Delta may just be the most Macross a modern day Macross series could be.

Also let's not forget... SDFM was originally planned to be a parody of mecha shows. It wasn't ultimately, but that is part of its roots.

Edited by Master Dex
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Face it they turned one of the greatest anime franchises into a comedic series featuring cute girlie girls. It can still be fun to watch (like this episode) but the Macross you remember is gone.

The original was pretty damn comedic. It had some serious tones but I would never call it overly serious. I think you're letting your nostalgia goggles cloud your judgement.

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The original was pretty damn comedic. It had some serious tones but I would never call it overly serious. I think you're letting your nostalgia goggles cloud your judgement.

Here we go again. It's like people want to believe people like myself, Roy, and some others haven't seen all of the Macross productions several times. Somehow we're only casual fans who haven't really been in touch with the franchise for a while and don't really have a good grasp on the material. Please, give me a break.

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Zola had the "Zola Patrol", which was their local police force... equipped with export model VFs and purely non-lethal weapons.

The UN Spacy Galaxy Patrol was/is something different.

Loschier the black marketer actually said Ginga Patrol-Tai.

On another topic.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/13aDimensionWeapons.php

The Operation And Restrictions Of Dimension Weapons

Its thought that the first combat that used an especially large quantity of MDE Dimension Weapons was the large-scale battle of 2059 between the Macross Frontier Fleet and the Vajra (the Macross Galaxy Fleet). In this battle, the tremendous pressure of Dimension Weapons was displayed, as the VF squadrons of the New Unified Forces, who escorted the fleet, and the civilian military provider S.M.S. were equipped with MDE - in order to oppose the Vajra, who had acquired a resistance to reaction weapons -, and used them to crush the Vajra.

Due to their power, usage restrictions similar to those for reaction weapons were established for Dimension Weapons - especially DE and MDE -, by the New Unified Government. Also, severe restrictions were imposed on the harvesting, distribution, and possession of fold quartz, which was indispensable for the production of Dimension Weapons.

Caption: Although the power itself of the Heavy Quantum Reaction Gun was great, its usage restrictions weren't severe, as it appears to have been treated merely as a large output beam gun.

Caption: The ownership of the Super Fold Booster was recognized to be by some of the businesses, such as the L.A.I. Co., as Fold Quartz was essential to its development.

Here is what I think happened. With the advent of Fold Quartz based technology Windermere was probably thinking like Leon Mishima those who have monopoly on Fold Quartz would become an economic and military super power. Meanwhile at the core region Grace blew up Gaul 4 and Frontier started to make their own MDE. When the NUNG finally got details and survived a Vajra invasion they put a restrictions on distribution and sale of Fold Quartz.

Windermere sees it as an Unequal Treaty as restrictions on Fold Quartz puts a kibosh on their ambitions. Their only other export is well apples.

So they had a temper tantrum with a revolution and just to prove their point as they are horrendously outgunned used a Mini-Dimension Eater on Carlisle.

Now their planet is dying. They are looking at an extinction event. All the good planets in the cluster is already occupied so they come up with a mind control scheme using Protoculture ruins.

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Also let's not forget... SDFM was originally planned to be a parody of mecha shows. It wasn't ultimately, but that is part of its roots.

That's like saying M7 was planned to be a serious, War melodrama... It has little bearing on what it actually was.

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NUNS sure is lucky Scooby and the gang were able to solve the mystery of the Var. They'd have never figured out without Wulkure's crack infiltration unit.

Yeah, and the Windemereans would've gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Chaos kids and their catgirl!

RedWolf: I won't be surprised if you're proven correct.

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Loschier the black marketer actually said Ginga Patrol-Tai.

On another topic.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/13aDimensionWeapons.php

Here is what I think happened. With the advent of Fold Quartz based technology Windermere was probably thinking like Leon Mishima those who have monopoly on Fold Quartz would become an economic and military super power. Meanwhile at the core region Grace blew up Gaul 4 and Frontier started to make their own MDE. When the NUNG finally got details and survived a Vajra invasion they put a restrictions on distribution and sale of Fold Quartz.

Windermere sees it as an Unequal Treaty as restrictions on Fold Quartz puts a kibosh on their ambitions. Their only other export is well apples.

So they had a temper tantrum with a revolution and just to prove their point as they are horrendously outgunned used a Mini-Dimension Eater on Carlisle.

Now their planet is dying. They are looking at an extinction event. All the good planets in the cluster is already occupied so they come up with a mind control scheme using Protoculture ruins.

I like that explanation, I think I'll adopt it until otherwise corrected by the show... ;)

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With all this talk of the zola patrol and the VF-5000, i was looking at pics of the vf-5000 and vf-19P. It looks like it has the NUNS logo on various spots. It doesn't look exactly the same as the nuns logo from frontier but it's pretty close. Would a local police force be using valks with a nuns logo? Was nuns even around back then? My memory of D7 is spotty but i know in the series they were still un spacy with the classic logo.

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While kinda similar in overall shape, the NUNS logo and the Zolan Patrol unit logos are different. The NUNS logo diamond shape is like the base logo with other graphics on top. THe Zolan Patrol logo is actually two arrow-like objects on either side of a circle in the center.

Not sure if it's supposed to be coincidence or intentional, but the logos are different.

post-114-0-04225100-1463611417_thumb.png

post-114-0-48620000-1463611806_thumb.gif

Edited by Mr March
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Here we go again. It's like people want to believe people like myself, Roy, and some others haven't seen all of the Macross productions several times. Somehow we're only casual fans who haven't really been in touch with the franchise for a while and don't really have a good grasp on the material. Please, give me a break.

I didn't call you or Roy casual fans, but I do think you're letting nostalgia get the best of you. Delta really doesn't feel that much different from previous entries and trying to compare it to the original Macross at this point is rather silly. It's been 30 years since the original and each new entry has tried to do it's own thing and not be like the original with the exception of maybe Frontier but that had more callbacks than trying to do the original plot scene for scene. You also give me the impression you just don't like modern anime at all so that's probably contributing to your dislike of Delta too.

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I really enjoyed Frontier, and I'm not so much a fan of Delta. How is it they are supposed to feel similar, because I'm missing it entirely.

Wait, nevermind, you said that Delta doesn't feel much different than other Macross productions, but also that it's trying to do its own thing, which is a contradiction. Just saying.

There is plenty of modern anime out there that isn't focused on "magical" idol jpop groups, so no, it has nothing to do with that. And please, don't move on to "you just don't understand it." That's always a losing argument.

Fact is some of you guys like the idol group stuff, and some of us don't. And that's fine. But for the 100th time, please stop with the "but it's always been this way" nonsense.

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Loschier the black marketer actually said Ginga Patrol-Tai.

The full name of the Zola Patrol is the Zola Galactic Patrol Corps.

Coverage of Macross Dynamite 7 in Macross Chronicle is fairly clear on the subject of the Zola Patrol's standing as a non-military law enforcement organization operating under the authority of planet Zola's autonomous government.

(Thank for you getting me to look, though... while I was checking, I found the answer to an unrelated question relating to VF space propellant storage.)

With all this talk of the zola patrol and the VF-5000, i was looking at pics of the vf-5000 and vf-19P. It looks like it has the NUNS logo on various spots. It doesn't look exactly the same as the nuns logo from frontier but it's pretty close. Would a local police force be using valks with a nuns logo? Was nuns even around back then? My memory of D7 is spotty but i know in the series they were still un spacy with the classic logo.

The New UN Government Space Forces logo and the Zola Patrol's logo do look a little similar... though the only place we've seen a VF-5000 in UN Forces livery is video games (Macross M3's VF-5000B). Exactly when the UN Gov't became the New UN Gov't isn't clear, but it was sometime in the late 2040's or 2050's.

Oddly enough (in hindsight), Zola seems to be the only planet we've seen that made contact with the UN Government that doesn't seem to have a military garrison force kicking around. I wonder how much of that is the local microorganisms making the planet's environment unsuitable for humans, and therefore limiting Zolan exposure to human technology and the UN Government's need for a garrison to protect its interests there, and how much is the Zolan desire for nonviolent (or at least non-lethal) conflict resolution?

Every other planet with a human-suitable climate and sub-Protoculture species now seems to possess (or in Windermere's case, possessed) a military garrison force.

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I really enjoyed Frontier, and I'm not so much a fan of Delta. How is it they are supposed to feel similar, because I'm missing it entirely.

Wait, nevermind, you said that Delta doesn't feel much different than other Macross productions, but also that it's trying to do its own thing, which is a contradiction. Just saying.

There is plenty of modern anime out there that isn't focused on "magical" idol jpop groups, so no, it has nothing to do with that. And please, don't move on to "you just don't understand it." That's always a losing argument.

Fact is some of you guys like the idol group stuff, and some of us don't. And that's fine. But for the 100th time, please stop with the "but it's always been this way" nonsense.

You don't like Delta because it has a group of idols, fair enough. You should still lighten up a bit and stop taking the show so seriously.

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Exactly when the UN Gov't became the New UN Gov't isn't clear, but it was sometime in the late 2040's or 2050's.

2048 it seems. Which makes sense. In 2047 rebel Zentradi who stole the VFX-11 brought a bunch of uncultured Zentradi and a recovered Main Fortress to attack Earth. Earth may very well have a target on its back. If Earth falls colonies and fleets won't be a headless chicken.

I've started spot translations of the Timeline pages of Macross Chronicle, and I've noticed a change in the use of 統合 (UN) to統合 (NUN) at an unexpected point. By expected, I mean post VF-X2, and pre-MF.

Following numbers are the Glossary sheet number:

#43 M7; 2046.01 "地球の統合軍本部の命令で、"

There are other pages that mention 統合 (UN), but that is the last entry in the M7 part of the timeline that a quick scan resulted in.

#46 D7; 2047

I haven't spotted 統合 (UN) on this page, which isn't surprising. Nevertheless, given that D7 occurs only a year after M7, I wouldn't hazard a guess that UN is still UN.

#47 VF-X/MF; 2048 "その一方、新統合政府は"

New UN government mentioned, a full 2 years before the events of VF-X2. The sentence is about the NUN government repressing the news of the Vajra attack on the 117th Survey Fleet.

[same sheet]; 2050 "だがその一方では、新統合政府の"

New UN government and New UN Forces (aka NUNS) appear, numerous times, in the 727th Special Duty Squadron Ravens section (the VF-X/VF-X2 section).

Given this, I'm inclined to believe that the switch from UN to New UN occured in 2048, and the process of deevolution of the central governments power to the colonies and emigrant fleets was underway during 2050. I'm in the midst of translating the 727th Raven's section, but it is clear that the central government had more control over the perifery in 2050, then it does in 2059.

Interesting.

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2048 it seems. Which makes sense. In 2047 rebel Zentradi who stole the VFX-11 brought a bunch of uncultured Zentradi and a recovered Main Fortress to attack Earth. Earth may very well have a target on its back. If Earth falls colonies and fleets won't be a headless chicken.

Kawamori shot down the idea that it was motivated by military concerns in his Otona Anime #9 interview. Essentially, he said it was because of the UN Government's constituency becoming too spread-out for it to govern the emigrant worlds effectively. He notes that, prior to that statement, it had been assumed that the event that prompted the change to the New UN Government was the 2051 hijacking of Battle-13 as part of an attempted coup by Latence. The exact time at which the New UN Gov't and NUNS became a thing is really unclear, in part because of flashbacks like Ozma's that put VF-171's with NUNS markings at events in the mid-2040's.

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Basara will turn it into an epic duet and get Gepelwhatshisname singing even faster. Mountains will finally move, Mylene will be annoyed, and Galactic peace will be achieved.

Bombaa!

Basara will turn it into an epic duet and get Gepelwhatshisname singing even faster. Mountains will finally move, Mylene will be annoyed, and Galactic peace will be achieved.

Bombaa!

...and now I want to hear the duet of Basara and Mikimo.

Judging by Frontier experience, this might be coming a few years down the line, given both Yoshiki Fukyama and JUNNA remain all right?

(But it would be better if it were to happen faster so that teenage!JUNNA can get the maximum thrill out of it. She so deserves it).

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There is plenty of modern anime out there that isn't focused on "magical" idol jpop groups, so no, it has nothing to do with that. And please, don't move on to "you just don't understand it." That's always a losing argument.

Fact is some of you guys like the idol group stuff, and some of us don't. And that's fine. But for the 100th time, please stop with the "but it's always been this way" nonsense.

So is your issue Delta related to the fact that they focus on a J-pop idol group? Or the fact that they use advanced technology which makes them seem magical? Is it the atmosphere of the series thus far or is something different overall?

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I am still a bit ambivalent about Macross Delta right now.

In a lot of ways, Macross Delta is more like Macross 7. With singing more integral to the story, literally, Var is counteracted by singing, and that's the focus, without Walkure, everything would be about firefighting. The setting is also different from the other series, all the other stories had everything revolved around a moving ship.

The difference with the original series is that it was in a fixed location (Earth system), so it's kind of like Delta in that fashion, except Delta occurs in a small cluster of stars. 7 and Frontier weren't fixed in that way.

The original series and frontier also focused on solo singers who happens to make a big difference almost as an aside. You could easily see both of those having no idols and still be very engaging series. The idols weren't the sole focus of the story, that they are essential to the story line is almost an after effect. (at least that's what I think) So, Frontier and the original series would be focused on single pop stars, like a Taylor Swift or a Taylor Dane.

7 and Delta are focused on a bands or group of singers. Dare I say it, New Kids on the Block or Van Halen... Each series is quite unique and have mixture of elements, some the same as other series, some quite different. The other thing that I noticed is that as the Macross series expands, the in universe structure seem less and less obvious. I know the governmental structure of the original series, still somewhat sure about what it was in 7 and Frontier, but Delta seems to really muddy things up.

Each series are definitely different, and while some of the basic formulas, triangle, singing, VFs, and Macrosses remain the same, there are quite a bit difference in most of the other story elements.

so far, Delta is pretty entertaining, not quite on par with Frontier, but definitely superior to 7 in my humble opinion.

Edited by kalvasflam
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Delta focusing on an idol group is just Macross being Macross by focusing on the popular J-pop trends of the day. Just like how bands and visual kei was on the rise in the 90s (when we got 7), idol groups are the big thing nowadays, with groups like Morning Musume, AKB47, Momoiro Clover Z, etc. being at the zenith of their popularity. Instead of the solo career routes of Minmay, Sheryl, and Ranka (and Mari Iijima, May'n and Megumi Nakajima) most aspiring singers in Japan now go through the whole idol group route (I'm pretty sure Walkure's VAs will be packaged as an idol group IRL as well).

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