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Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 4 - READ 1st POST


azrael
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Mission 4: Shocking Debut Stage  

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    • Positive ( Listen to Frejya's song! )
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It was. That's why he got the video from Makina mentioing the tweaks his plane got.

Gives more credence to the theory that EX-Gears and other general advancements have made piloting planes/VFs so ubiquitous that they're almost like cars now where it's easy to hop in from one to another.

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Just watched the episode again and am convinced the Var is actually a form of mind control. When Spacy attacks, Mikumo is astonished that they were attacking in formation. To me this implies they believed the Var was a condition that created random acts of violence, but with the VF-171 Squadron attacking in formation was not seen a possible.

So it would appear that the Var is an artificial condition evoked by the Windemere fold song and it can direct the victims to do specific tasks. Thus all the acts of terror and the attacks were orchestrated even before Windemere declared war. I believe in Japanese culture this establishes the Windemere as dishonorable foes.

Freyja also recognizes the lord (can't remember his name now) and I suspect there is a connection there somehow.

Edited by Zinjo
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Freyja also recognizes the lord (can't remember his name now) and I suspect there is a connection there somehow.

She recognizes Roid since he's the chancellor of Winderemere. This is like recognizing Joe Biden since he's the Vice President of the USA.
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She recognizes Roid since he's the chancellor of Winderemere. This is like recognizing Joe Biden since he's the Vice President of the USA.

While that is true in real life, in-universe, its a pretty small world as each character seems to know or related to one another somehow, some way.

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She recognizes Roid since he's the chancellor of Winderemere. This is like recognizing Joe Biden since he's the Vice President of the USA.

That's the vibe I got, it's like me as a Brit recognising the Prime Minister of England. Didn't get the feeling that there's a relationship there, more just that he's a well known public figure on Windermear, so Freyja recognised him.

Of course I could be wrong.

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Mirage's fault for not stabbing him yet.

We really need fan art of the knife fight scene with Hayate and Mirage inserted.

As far as Freyja knowing Roid...She knows who he is because he's an important Windermerian public figure.

AFAIK the manga hasn't painted Freyja as someone that has any particular connection to the noble/ruler types. Of course anything is possible in her earlier backstory.

Edited by Rbstr
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An interesting and beautiful episode in which we learn that:

1) Freyja and her compatriots live about 30 years

2) In addition to Ragna in this sector of space, there are several colonies UNS

3) how the looks of transformation from the SV-262


It is not clear why and what "The Kingdom of the Wind" has declared war on the "United Nations," because it is clearly inferior in resources and population, and it is unlikely that it has a technological advantage?

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P.S. I can not understand why over time the designers "Valkyries" is increasingly trying to use more and more ornate and complex variants of transformation? After all, it only leads to complexity and high cost of production ...

What's wrong with a simple classical scheme and its variations like the YF-21 and VF-171, well, or "alternative" VF-2SS Valkyrie II?

Edited by Mit
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We really need fan art of the knife fight scene with Hayate and Mirage inserted.

Great idea! I'll get my 6 year old to draw it for added authenticity.

P.S. I can not understand why over time the designers "Valkyries" is increasingly trying to use more and more ornate and complex variants of transformation? After all, it only leads to complexity and high cost of production ...

What's wrong with a simple classical scheme and its variations like the YF-21 and VF-171, well, or "alternative" VF-2SS Valkyrie II?

Toys, man...

But, also, I think SK really enjoys the creativity of making them distinct from one generation to another and more complex. It'd be boring to just do the VF-1 sequence over and over.

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It is not clear why and what "The Kingdom of the Wind" has declared war on the "United Nations," because it is clearly inferior in resources and population, and it is unlikely that it has a technological advantage?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. I can not understand why over time the designers "Valkyries" is increasingly trying to use more and more ornate and complex variants of transformation? After all, it only leads to complexity and high cost of production ...

What's wrong with a simple classical scheme and its variations like the YF-21 and VF-171, well, or "alternative" VF-2SS Valkyrie II?

The Windermerians are very smart and appear to have a fold song weapon that evokes the Var, which IMHO is a mind control device capable of directing its victims to commit violent acts against their enemies by proxy.

The SV-262 is no more complex a transformation than the VF-9 which pre-dates the Drakken by at least a decade. The transformation is complex to allow the fighter to ultimately "resemble" the fighter SK envisions. In this case the Drakken.

Edited by Zinjo
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It is not clear why and what "The Kingdom of the Wind" has declared war on the "United Nations," because it is clearly inferior in resources and population, and it is unlikely that it has a technological advantage?

Why did Saddam Hussein provoke the US into the Gulf war in 1990? Because they think they can win. It's possible that the Windermereians think that since their culture is superior to Human culture, and that their extreme physical ability gives them a singular advantage, and that they have the fold song that seems to either cause or trigger the Var, that they can stand against the conventional might of the NUNS. We've seen it twice in the 20th century, and almost twice more in the 21st, that asymmetrical warfare can defeat a well equipped, well trained, and technologically superior foe (I refer to Vietnam and the Soviet Afghan war for the 20th century, and Iraq and Afghanistan for the 21st). All four examples show that if one of the belligerents either doesn't understand the nature of the conflict, or is uncommitted to crushing the enemy's will and ability to resist, then it can't or won't win. Perhaps Windermere has been reading up on Human history...

P.S. I can not understand why over time the designers "Valkyries" is increasingly trying to use more and more ornate and complex variants of transformation? After all, it only leads to complexity and high cost of production ...

What's wrong with a simple classical scheme and its variations like the YF-21 and VF-171, well, or "alternative" VF-2SS Valkyrie II?

Let's see, the YF21/VF22/S wasn't as simple a transformation as it seems (lots of doors and panels and foldy bits), the VF-2SS (if you look at the toy, uses way too much anime magic) and the VF-17/171 are also not simple. The VF-1 has probably the most straightforward transformation, and doing that over and over would be boring.

However, if you look at the designs from frontier, the VF-25, VF27, and VF29 the transformations (even in toy form) are relatively simple, as was the SV51 from Macross Zero. There are only so many ways to fold a fighter jet into a robot while keeping them feeling fresh and new, and keeping pace with real world developments.

The YF-21 and YF-19 were designed in the early 90's when the ATF program became public, and the M+ production actually kind of mirrors the program (which was very similar to the Lightweight fighter program that resulted in the F-16 and F-18). The AVF's in M+ incorporated a lot of ideas that were being used in the Aerospace industry at the time, stealth, FSW, canards, and all of that was in vogue at the time. Now Variable fighters are taking a retro sort of approach because Kawamori is probably bored with the cutting age new stuff, and wants to do something different.

Personally, I like where Kawamori goes with his designs. He does mechanical oragami with a fighter and turns it into a robot, as opposed to transformers which just sort of fold a robot up into a something (transformers really bothers me that way, though I still like them).

Besides, and here's the most important reason, it's fun and entertaining.

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Why did Saddam Hussein provoke the US into the Gulf war in 1990? Because they think they can win. It's possible that the Windermereians think that since their culture is superior to Human culture, and that their extreme physical ability gives them a singular advantage, and that they have the fold song that seems to either cause or trigger the Var, that they can stand against the conventional might of the NUNS. We've seen it twice in the 20th century, and almost twice more in the 21st, that asymmetrical warfare can defeat a well equipped, well trained, and technologically superior foe (I refer to Vietnam and the Soviet Afghan war for the 20th century, and Iraq and Afghanistan for the 21st). All four examples show that if one of the belligerents either doesn't understand the nature of the conflict, or is uncommitted to crushing the enemy's will and ability to resist, then it can't or won't win. Perhaps Windermere has been reading up on Human history...

I tend to equate this war to WW2 in that Germany started with a regional war, but it quickly escalated to a World War in Europe. In the first 3 years of WW2, Germany held the upper hand against superior numbers (I really don't believe Italy played any major role in the war in Europe except to maybe secure their own borders.)

After their ally, Imperial Japan, attacked the US and drew the last hold out nation into the conflict it set up D-Day which began the momentum against them. Some argue that if Hitler wouldn't have made an enemy of the Soviet Union early on, that Germany would have successfully conquered Europe in the end.

Edited by Zinjo
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so the brisingr alliance declare war on UNG. since UNG are stretched accross galaxy, does this means its the second galactic war? presumed the first was long ago in stellar republic by protoculture

We don't know about the Brisingr Alliance only that Roid mentioned them. Could be a reference to the Inheritance cycle series third book. Brisingr means fire. Which is interesting as Windermere is associated with Wind and Ragna is associated with water. Since we are traveling planets in this series encounter Sub-Protoculture home planet is possible.

On another note I remember in an episode of Macross Frontier a history teacher at Alto's class mention there are 17 known Protoculture planets. Worlds that were colonies or had artifacts. Worlds that we know of and possibly in the list were Earth, New Asia, Varauta, Rax and Ouroboros. Now we can add Windermere to that list. Since Mao Nome was the foremost expert on the Protoculture I wonder if she ever visited Windermere.

It is possible almost every seeded world has Protoculture ruins or relics. The most ancient relic on Zola that we know of were writings on the Whale bones that depict the White Whale as a a undying god. In Macross Frontier we learn that the Protoculture were animists. The Mayans worshiped the Protoculture as gods but they had other folklore. The Bird Human, the Fish Human and Kaduns. Mayans had a genetic memory of the Protoculture's culture.

Windermereans worship the Great Wind which to me suggest they are Kadun worshipers.

Edited by RedWolf
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Which episode of Frontier are you referring to?

I wonder if the connection to Frontier will be that the person Freyja received the audio player (phone?) from was Mao?

Um, Freyja is 14 years old and Mao died when Ranka was like 5, currently Ranka should be 24, just do the math, Mao couldn't have known Freyja.

Some people think that maybe Basara gave it to her, but Freyja knows about Fire Bomber so I think she could have recognized him even if it would have been after he left, so she should have said that Basara gave it to her, IMO this is another case of looking to much into the details of Freyja's past, like "Freyja escaped an arranged marriage, maybe she was going to marry one of the knights or the prince" and it was just the apple farmer's son, I'm not saying that it can't be someone important or known in the macross universe that gave her the music player, but maybe it was just a random human that visited Windemere.

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It is not clear why and what "The Kingdom of the Wind" has declared war on the "United Nations," because it is clearly inferior in resources and population, and it is unlikely that it has a technological advantage?

Var Syndrome means that they can easily turn a NUNS garrison to their side.
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We don't know about the Brisingr Alliance only that Roid mentioned them. Could be a reference to the Inheritance cycle series third book. Brisingr means fire. Which is interesting as Windermere is associated with Wind and Ragna is associated with water. Since we are traveling planets in this series encounter Sub-Protoculture home planet is possible.

On another note I remember in an episode of Macross Frontier a history teacher at Alto's class mention there are 17 known Protoculture planets. Worlds that were colonies or had artifacts. Worlds that we know of and possibly in the list were Earth, New Asia, Varauta, Rax and Ouroboros. Now we can add Windermere to that list. Since Mao Nome was the foremost expert on the Protoculture I wonder if she ever visited Windermere.

It is possible almost every seeded world has Protoculture ruins or relics. The most ancient relic on Zola that we know of were writings on the Whale bones that depict the White Whale as a a undying god. In Macross Frontier we learn that the Protoculture were animists. The Mayans worshiped the Protoculture as gods but they had other folklore. The Bird Human, the Fish Human and Kaduns. Mayans had a genetic memory of the Protoculture's culture.

Windermereans worship the Great Wind which to me suggest they are Kadun worshipers.

brisingr means fire. why that this remind me of "avatar the last airbender" :D

all nations live in peace until fire nation attack

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P.S. I can not understand why over time the designers "Valkyries" is increasingly trying to use more and more ornate and complex variants of transformation? After all, it only leads to complexity and high cost of production ...

What's wrong with a simple classical scheme and its variations like the YF-21 and VF-171, well, or "alternative" VF-2SS Valkyrie II?

Well, the entire premise of a variable fighter increases complexity and cost. You can't really say that complexity is a problem on newer fighters without ALSO considering it to be a problem on the older ones, right on back to the VF-1. Better to ignore it and just go with the flow.

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I tend to equate this war to WW2 in that Germany started with a regional war, but it quickly escalated to a World War in Europe. In the first 3 years of WW2, Germany held the upper hand against superior numbers (I really don't believe Italy played any major role in the war in Europe except to maybe secure their own borders.)

After their ally, Imperial Japan, attacked the US and drew the last hold out nation into the conflict it set up D-Day which began the momentum against them. Some argue that if Hitler wouldn't have made an enemy of the Soviet Union early on, that Germany would have successfully conquered Europe in the end.

Yeah, that's what I had in mind - even if these "Knights of the Wind" it is possible to use a "syndrome", in the long term it has little capacity ...

In the end, this phenomenon "Valkyrie" may have to fight, and that is when, for example, the impact of their songs will be broadcast over long distances and the area? Luxurious, but small units unable to cope with a large and a professional

army...

They can not be so stupid, that would not be understood

Let's see, the YF21/VF22/S wasn't as simple a transformation as it seems (lots of doors and panels and foldy bits), the VF-2SS (if you look at the toy, uses way too much anime magic) and the VF-17/171 are also not simple.

http://macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21/yf-21-transformation1.gif

http://macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21/yf-21-transformation2.gif

http://macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-17d-nightmare/vf-17d-transformation.gif

In any case, it is much easier than VF-19 or VF-24 family, not to mention such models as the VF-9 and VF-14...

In the classical scheme of the machine body (in transformation mode "fighter") break in two along the central transverse axis so that the back half of the motors and the fins, which form the arms and legs in the modes "gerwalk" and "battroid", tilted downwardly and rearwardly, and the front, with the cockpit blister - down and forward, turning nose cone to the ground. From the center of the body extends head c anti-aircraft gun. An interesting detail: at the VF-1 anti-aircraft laser turret in aircraft configuration located under the floor and was sent forward, but all later "Valkyrie", "classic" scheme starting with VF-11, and then she was on the top and "looks" back. However, the VF-21 fixed head forms the middle part of the body, located behind the cab. Almost similarly, too, in principle, the "classic" is modified and gorgeous "invisible" fighterVF-17S / D Nightmare, but his transformation center as compared to the VF-21 significantly shifted to the fore and is still stationary section just with the cockpit (of which the top extends and takes place on the one hundred and eighty degrees - facing forward - the head with a pair or chevёrkoy guns), and down recline only nose fairing, opening strongly protruding from his chest formed "battroida" cylindrical section with hidden inside place the pilot and embedded in it at the sides by two powerful infrared (thermal) laser with a short, thick trunks ...

As you can see from these examples, even on the basis of a simple circuit, you can create a variety of interesting and reliable option

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The addition of CG basically canned the M+ / M7 looks. The CG models don't "lie" as easily as hand-drawn perspectives and so to be consistent the Battroid modes of various Valkyries suddenly got a LOT skinnier to match the sleek fighter modes. Still, there's room for some innovation, mostly around where to put the extra bits and bobs that aren't the main limbs. Putting the carnards on the shoulders on the VF-30/31s was a nice touch, and the Sv-262 transverse limb arrangement allows some bigger / evil-er shoulders to be squished in there, for example.

I like the VF-171. It's bascally the VF-11 of the current generation, the trusty workhorse that's been around in at least two series. Chronologically speaking, the VF-17 series has been around longer than bascially ANY of the main characters have been alive (first flight was 2035, making senior pilot Arad one year old at the time). It's been the ubiquitous UNS/NUNS fighter for two decades, too. No surprise any amateur pilot can feel they can just jump into one and save the day.

Mark

PS - Ranka Beach. Ha!

Edited by tout-puissant
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Um, Freyja is 14 years old and Mao died when Ranka was like 5, currently Ranka should be 24, just do the math, Mao couldn't have known Freyja.

Some people think that maybe Basara gave it to her, but Freyja knows about Fire Bomber so I think she could have recognized him even if it would have been after he left, so she should have said that Basara gave it to her, IMO this is another case of looking to much into the details of Freyja's past, like "Freyja escaped an arranged marriage, maybe she was going to marry one of the knights or the prince" and it was just the apple farmer's son, I'm not saying that it can't be someone important or known in the macross universe that gave her the music player, but maybe it was just a random human that visited Windemere.

OK, now i've definitely missed someting. Was not Mao aboard the Galaxy during MF? The series never showed the Galaxy being destroyed, it was considered lost, but we never saw it.

As for Freyja's benefactor, no one is insisting it was Mao, it was a musing. Some people need to relax about random speculations or they won't make it out of this series alive... :p

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The addition of CG basically canned the M+ / M7 looks. The CG models don't "lie" as easily as hand-drawn perspectives and so to be consistent the Battroid modes of various Valkyries suddenly got a LOT skinnier to match the sleek fighter modes. ...

You can thank 30 years of innovation for that. CG is much cheaper now than it was when this franchise started. In fact, there's hardly any production that doesn't have some CG in it, Be simple "cel" coloring to full sequences.

I like the VF-171.

Obviously you were not around when this happened:

ani-macross-vf171machida.gif

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=26769

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Mao died when the research fleet was attacked by Vajra (when ranka was 5).

Like why would Sheryl be out on the streets if her grandmother was just chilling in the Galaxy fleet?

It's not so much that it's a "random speculation" it that it isn't even possible.

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