HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd say the indiscriminate use of the banhammer to silence the anti RT/HG opinion at RT.com, has pretty much killed the boards there.

IMO, the boards on Robotech.com were pretty dead even before Maverick and MEMO started indiscriminately revoking the posting privileges of anyone who criticized Harmony Gold and their handling of Robotech or dared to point out the facts of the Macross rights situation. For years, the only active part of the site was the off-topic section (The Lounge, before Steve split it into The Lounge and Small Talk because there was simply nothing new to discuss.

And I'm seeing more of this "fandom politics" day after day. Sounds as corrupt as regular politics (sorry, I know the rules, but still).

Eh... from what I've gathered it's ALWAYS been that way with Robotech.

[HappyPenguins]

memo and mav must fall under the category of morons who believe Tommy saved Robotech

no he brutally killed it, not that the original was amazing or epic, but Tommy actually managed to make it worse, not to mention the god awful Shadow Rising draft I've read.

but still I'd like to know what's so amazing about TSC besides the ridiculous fan service.

Wish memo and mav would enlighten me on the subject.. but knowing them, I can expect gibber jabber..

Well at least pizza the hutt was kind enough to share his thoughts on the movie =]

I wont deny that Robotech is a failure of a franchise, and going down the shitter more every day, but the original series I saw in 97 will always have a special place in my nostalgic heart along with all the other shows that stuck out to me in the old days...

I personally wish Robotech would just fade away, no live action movie, no crappy revival, just let it die.

[Einherjar]

Eh... from what I've gathered it's ALWAYS been that way with Robotech.

To me, it's always surprising just how low people will go to defend this. Apparently, there is no bottom, that's all. And there's very little to show for it on any level except urging people to stay patient, keep thinking about positive hypothetical situations for the franchise, and buy paraphernalia.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Einherjar

[Bri]

Honestly, I doubt that's true...

Remember, the original Southern Cross series was a failure even before it was licensed by Harmony Gold and used to make Robotech. The show's ratings were so poor that the show was canceled and the writers had to hastily wrap up the story as best they could in the space they had left. I've also heard that the show's merchandise didn't sell worth a damn either. What little Japanese merchandise I've seen for it has all borne the Big West logo, so I don't think there was (or is) any confusion about merchandising, and the use of Southern Cross characters pretty much unaltered in the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels project (and updated versions in Shadow Chronicles) leads me to suspect the intellectual property rights to Southern Cross are firmly Tatsunoko's.

When asked about the profound lack of merchandise for Robotech's Masters Saga, Harmony Gold has always given the same answer... they don't think it will sell. As much as it will offend all six Southern Cross fans, Harmony Gold really does have sound reasons for believing that. In pretty much every poll about fan preferences, the Masters Saga is usually in dead last, popularity wise:

In the last poll, "Do you feel that the Army of the Southern Cross has been given an unfairly bad rap?", only 19.8% of the 4463 respondents thought the bad reputation was undeserved. 75% said that the ASC's bad reputation was richly deserved, not bad enough to do their failure justice, or that they just plain didn't give a poo about anything Southern Cross-related. Likewise, on the occasions that Supreme Commander Leonard is a poll topic, the overwhelming majority usually comes out to blast his ass for being an incompetent toad (59.1% of the last one responding that Leonard was a moron, and in the one before that, 57.6% said he was an incompetent buffoon). In merchandise polls, at least 30% of respondents come out to say they're patently uninterested in whatever the Masters Saga merchandise du jour happens to be, and only about 3-4% of the votes go to Masters Saga mecha in mecha popularity polls, with Macross Saga mecha usually holding at least 55% of the overall votes, and frequently much more.

I've seen this come up in discussions on game forums where people were theorizing in regard to Capcom versus Tatsunoko if any Mospeada or Southern Cross characters would show up. So I doubt it's more then a rumour. Maybe the Big West connection to the Super Dimension tag had people speculating?

As for the undeserved bad rep, we are talking about Robotech fans in regard to that poll. The kind of people that would call Macek a genius and actually like Shadow Chronicles. I kind of doubt that more then a fraction had seen the original (probably around 19.8% ).

Southern Cross isn't a master piece and suffered from poor mecha design. Still it is an interesting show, had great character designs and was ahead of it's time in several areas especially gender roles. But it's way better then the sliced up mess Macek turned it into.

[Ghost Train]

The fandom politics discussed in this thread is utterly amazing. The fact that a bunch of people can turn RT discussion into Serious F'ING BUSINESS blows my mind. Thus, RT Live Action should be a movie about RT fans and internet message boards. The mysterious Macross World Forum will be a shadowy non-aligned organization in the main plot.... Its leader will be played by Martin Sheen.

[Jasonc]

The fandom politics discussed in this thread is utterly amazing. The fact that a bunch of people can turn RT discussion into Serious F'ING BUSINESS blows my mind. Thus, RT Live Action should be a movie about RT fans and internet message boards. The mysterious Macross World Forum will be a shadowy non-aligned organization in the main plot.... Its leader will be played by Martin Sheen.

Man, why are you giving away the plot to part two of the LAM? Robotech:Macrossworld Rising

I will be hunting for big boobed women in Mars Base shirts and short skirts, Badow!!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

To me, it's always surprising just how low people will go to defend this. Apparently, there is no bottom, that's all. And there's very little to show for it on any level except urging people to stay patient, keep thinking about positive hypothetical situations for the franchise, and buy paraphernalia.

After something like six years on Robotech.com, I can't honestly say that it surprises me in the least. It's exactly what the higher-ups at Harmony Gold want... to keep the fans in an endless loop of positive speculation so they won't give up hope that the live-action movie and/or Shadow Rising will turn things around for Robotech and haul the franchise's fat out of the fire.

As for the undeserved bad rep, we are talking about Robotech fans in regard to that poll. The kind of people that would call Macek a genius and actually like Shadow Chronicles. I kind of doubt that more then a fraction had seen the original (probably around 19.8% ).

Granted... but who apart from Robotech fans really gives a toss about Southern Cross anymore? Being used as part of Robotech was the biggest break Southern Cross ever got, and even then it's solemnly detested. If you're looking for people who are at least nominal fans of Southern Cross, you're going to find the vast majority in the Robotech fandom.

(Remember, the bit about the "undeserved bad rap" was for the Army of the Southern Cross, not the series Southern Cross, just demonstrating why Robotech fans have no interest in hovertanks, Logans, and AGACs either)

Southern Cross isn't a master piece and suffered from poor mecha design. Still it is an interesting show, had great character designs and was ahead of it's time in several areas especially gender roles. But it's way better then the sliced up mess Macek turned it into.

Well, whether it's better than what Macek turned it into is a matter of opinion... and as insane as this will sound coming from me, I honestly think being tied into a bigger story did Southern Cross a world of good. The remastered ADV release that I have for Southern Cross is nothing short of atrocious.

[Bri]

Remember, the bit about the "undeserved bad rap" was for the Army of the Southern Cross, not the series Southern Cross, just demonstrating why Robotech fans have no interest in hovertanks, Logans, and AGACs either.

Fair enough, the mecha in SDCSC is not particuarly inspiring. Though the bioroids were interesting takes on the Zaku.

Well, whether it's better than what Macek turned it into is a matter of opinion... and as insane as this will sound coming from me, I honestly think being tied into a bigger story did Southern Cross a world of good. The remastered ADV release that I have for Southern Cross is nothing short of atrocious.

I guess this is where we differ in opinion. I saw SDCSC before watching the RT version. In the early 2000s I watched MS Gundam, Patlabor, Dragonar, Ideon, Dunbine and any other mecha show I could get my hands on. SDCSC was one of them and you can really see how it fits in to it's era, It seems much more inspired by the Sunrise shows then Macross and Orguss. I just can't see SDCSC as a sequel to the Macross saga, to me the shows will always be unrelated. Somehow RT fans, and Macross fans for that matter, seem obsessed to judge it by SDFM standards. For an 80s anime show SDCSC isn't bad.

[VF5SS]

Not only that but if you compare Southern Cross to the show it was actually intended to follow up, which was Orguss, it fares much better.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fair enough, the mecha in SDCSC is not particuarly inspiring. Though the bioroids were interesting takes on the Zaku.

Well, in the interest of fairness I suppose my detail-oriented nature predisposes me to be rather more unkind towards the Southern Cross series and its mecha than the average viewer. Even before I located a copy of the unedited Southern Cross, I remember finding the frequent inconsistencies in mecha scale and armament off-putting, with many cases of weapons spontaneously changing nature or appearing and disappearing seemingly at will. Of course, it didn't help that the bioroid armor seemed to change durability magically (and well-beyond the realm of believability) as the story required... with at least one occasion of a bioroid being taken down at range by small arms fire. I won't even get into what I thought of the hovertank's open cockpit... we'll be here all week while I froth at the mouth.

Anyhoo... most Robotech fans seem to find the whole Masters Saga story, cast, and all the related baggage just about intolerable, and tend not to buy the related merchandise. I've seen a couple of appeals and petitions for a MPC Spartas, but they never get more than a handful of signatures, and it's usually the same signatures on every petition.

[derex3592]

I don't know....I kinda sorta always thought the story line of Southern Cross in Robowreck was kinda cool. Just edited and dialoged kinda poorly. Would have like to seen how it turned out if had gone all the way through the planned production length, with some better editing and animation. I always thought the mecha and uniforms were cool because they were such a departure from the Macross part of the RT equation. Maybe I'm one of very few, but it kinda worked for me in a broader sense...

*ducks for cover under computer desk*

Edited February 28, 2010 by derex3592

[taksraven]

Well, whether it's better than what Macek turned it into is a matter of opinion... and as insane as this will sound coming from me, I honestly think being tied into a bigger story did Southern Cross a world of good. The remastered ADV release that I have for Southern Cross is nothing short of atrocious.

No, I think that you're exactly right. Without RT, Southern Cross would be absolutely forgotten by now. Mospeada probably would not be doing so good either....

Taksraven

[derex3592]

No, I think that you're exactly right. Without RT, Southern Cross would be absolutely forgotten by now. Mospeada probably would not be doing so good either....

Taksraven

Have to agree 100% with Taks on that point .

[jenius]

It's really hard to say Mospeada would have been forgotten without Robotech. Mospeada was at least moderately successful, look at the huge droves of 80s merchandise (granted, it's much less than was planned and not credited with selling particularly well... okay, and potentially credited with forcing Gakken out of the toy market). That said, during this economic boom toy manufacturers reached out for every avenue to make money and toward the end of that property grab they did find Mospeada and FOUR different Japanese companies made toys for it (Aoshima, Mega House, CMs, Beagle). Of those four, three companies profited from a Robotech relationship (mega house, aoshima and beagle) while the one that didn't profit at all was the only one to finish their line of toys. I don't know if Robotech really deserves credit for ALL of the Mospeada merchandise boom we just saw... I think it was more the economic boom. On that point, not a single new Southern Cross toy came out during those boom years so it goes without question that SDCSC would indeed be dead to the world if it weren't for Robotech.

Now that the economic boom is over, it looks like SDCSC, Mopseada, and Robotech are all essentially dead.

[taksraven]

It's really hard to say Mospeada would have been forgotten without Robotech.

I don't think its that hard to say, I just said it......

Taksraven

[jenius]

Or more accurately, you typed it... but it doesn't address the volumes of material that have come out of Japan... where Robotech doesn't have much to do with the price of rice. Even the Mega House deal seemed to be more an event of Toynami taking a toy that was being produced regardless of their efforts and then working out a distribution deal (without any Robotech re-badging). Two deals were influenced by Robotech, the Aoshima and Beagle deals. Everything else, including the new line art book, seem to have had nothing at all to do with Robotech. So, while it may be easy for you to say, it doesn't seem very accurate.

[Keith]

Have to agree 100% with Taks on that point .

Mospeada did fine without Robotech. 3 words, "Love, Live, Alive." Mospeada love seems to be hovering in the same vicinity as Orguss, and maybe a bit less than Votoms (since a new OVA for that comes out every so often). And neither of those shows had any help from "robotech."

[Seto Kaiba]

No, I think that you're exactly right. Without RT, Southern Cross would be absolutely forgotten by now. Mospeada probably would not be doing so good either....

Actually, what I meant was that the inclusion of Southern Cross in a larger story went a long way towards improving the show's weak story and hurried ending. Unless I seriously missed something, the Zor Lords never really give a decent explanation of why the bioenergy of the protozor was important to them or what all this business about using it to become immortal was about. Having it tied in to the overarching story of Robotech did a lot to make the ending less of a mess (even if it didn't quite fit), and made several of the more obnoxious characters (Jeanne, Bowie, etc.) a little more appealing by tying their backstories to characters who aren't quite so easy to hate (Max and Miriya, and Claudia respectively).

It is true that without Robotech, nobody would remember Southern Cross... and I can't really decide if that's a bad thing or not.

[VFTF1]

Impossible. He never talks about porn, how to enlarge one's penis, or how to make $10,000 a week by playing poker.

So are you implying that I'm a spambot?

Pete

[Einherjar]

After something like six years on Robotech.com, I can't honestly say that it surprises me in the least. It's exactly what the higher-ups at Harmony Gold want... to keep the fans in an endless loop of positive speculation so they won't give up hope that the live-action movie and/or Shadow Rising will turn things around for Robotech and haul the franchise's fat out of the fire.

I'll go further into it; they have no real story in Robotech to talk about anymore, and the whole franchise is there purely for money these days. Dangling Rick Hunter, nostalgia, legalities, etc. are just the means to an end, and they welcome people's obsessiveness, but only on their terms and conditions.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Einherjar

[Pizza the Hutt]

Uhh, MaverickLSC finally came out of his fox hole (or HG hole) and posted very nicely why he did what he did.I never seen such a double standard 2 faced online weirdo in a long time.Ha! Check out what he said after being called out

http://www.robotechx.com:80/forums/38-robo...start=120#10437

Some people contradict themselves.

It's just not right, it demeans who you are as a person.

SO he demeaned himself when he cried like a whimp when he banned Seto and then again by becoming a flame troll himself.

What makes me wonder is why do Memo and Maverick claim to be Macross fans but do everything in their powers to debunk Macross and Macross fans by trying to rub it in what HG uses DYRL? rights to make toys they can't design themselves.

Maverick and Memo are demeaning to themselves for believing that crap about Shadow Rising,RLAM and the endless bull that Kevin says "Things are happening"

[Robelwell202]

Uhh, MaverickLSC finally came out of his fox hole (or HG hole) and posted very nicely why he did what he did.I never seen such a double standard 2 faced online weirdo in a long time.Ha! Check out what he said after being called out

http://www.robotechx.com:80/forums/38-robo...start=120#10437

Some people contradict themselves.

SO he demeaned himself when he cried like a whimp when he banned Seto and then again by becoming a flame troll himself.

What makes me wonder is why do Memo and Maverick claim to be Macross fans but do everything in their powers to debunk Macross and Macross fans by trying to rub it in what HG uses DYRL? rights to make toys they can't design themselves.

Maverick and Memo are demeaning to themselves for believing that crap about Shadow Rising,RLAM and the endless bull that Kevin says "Things are happening"

I read that post on RTX, and all I can say about it is that I'm not surprised at all.

Mav's held a long-time reputation for being two-faced, and a back-stabber, besides. While he claims to be an 'impartial' moderator on RT.com, his modus-operandi is pretty clear to see. "What?!? You didn't like RT:TSC? You didn't think it was the most amazingly amazing thing to happen to Anime since those primitive Japanese started putting ink to paper?!? BLASPHEMER!!! You get the Ban-Hammer!"

Or, on a slightly different tangent...

"WHAT?!? You sit there and use FACTS to support your claim that HG can't do anything with Macross designs, except market them??? HOW DARE YOU!!! You hurt my feelings, and there's gotta be more people who've had thier feelings hurt, so here's the ban-hammer, aimed right at you!"

Utterly predictable, and completely transparent.

What a joke.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'll go further into it; they have no real story in Robotech to talk about anymore, and the whole franchise is there purely for money these days. Dangling Rick Hunter, nostalgia, legalities, etc. are just the means to an end, and they welcome people's obsessiveness, but only on their terms and conditions.

Well, the increased focus on wishful thinking and positive speculation about titles that will probably never see the light of day really is a function of Harmony Gold's ineptitude. It took their "creative team" so long to produce a continuation of the story, and that continuation was so short and insubstantial, that they've simply run out of things to talk about except wondering out loud about how great the next one will be... needlessly raising their own expectations to levels Harmony Gold will never be able to meet.

Now, they're just dangling various hot topics over people's heads in hopes that the drama and ceaseless speculation will keep them excited enough to prevent their rose-tinted glasses from slipping off.

Uhh, MaverickLSC finally came out of his fox hole (or HG hole) and posted very nicely why he did what he did.

So, in summation... Maverick_LSC came out of whatever hidey-hole he's been squirreled away in and said something profoundly ignorant and condescending intended to belittle everyone who isn't him... which is pretty much par for the course where that idiot's concerned. Just ignore it and it'll go away, like a door-to-door salesman or an annoying itch.

Believe me, I wholeheartedly understand your outrage at the way Maverick_LSC and MEMO1DOMINION have been using people and giving the decent folks in the Robotech fandom a bad name simply by association. Thing is, we all know that Maverick and MEMO are habitual liars so deeply entrenched in delusions of their own superiority and Robotech's popularity that nothing they say can or should be taken seriously. We already know they're stupid, arrogant bellends, so the only person you're really benefitting by ranting about it is them... because then they get the satisfaction of knowing their juvenile antics and "holier than thou" attitude towards the fans got a rise out of someone. So my advice to you is the time-honored adage "Don't feed the troll".

[Jasonc]

If anything, the post at rtx.com seems more like "I put my foot in my mouth again, and I need to rectify my ignorance for the time." What he says is true, but coming from him, it comes off very pretentious and fake. If he practiced what he preached, I'd be totally onboard with his post, but how many times has he attacked various groups, resorted to name calling, and the sort? I think JT would have something different to say. And for those here that interact with Mav on other boards, I hold no reservation on your opinions. To make that comment only after he's pissed off Robotech fans and Macross fans is more spin that a dryer.

[Einherjar]

All I see is, "Screw the rules, I'm a mod, and I have the moral high ground. Get a life."

My response, "You're expendable."

[Gubaba]

I never seen such a double standard 2 faced online weirdo in a long time.

I have.

[Einherjar]

From the Movies and TV forum, Robotech anniversary fever is in fast food restaurants... in the Philippines.

http://cybertronphils.proboards.com/index....0195&page=1

Et tu, Jollibee? There's a branch in my town in the U.S., I'll check if the promotion is here as well.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Einherjar

[ps99042]

nothing on the jollibee usa website. might have to ask my staff to have their relatives get them for me.

[Jasonc]

Whoopde F!@#in' do!!! I'm sure that's part of the huge marketing campaign and the biggest thing for the 25th anniversary. Guys, we all better run to Jolibees. They're probably talking about how cutting edge Jolibee's is in the fast food market because they sell Robotech product. Guys, this is gonna save Robotech, just wait and see. The good thing is, it's probably got more higher quality than Toynami.

[Einherjar]

I guess their choices were limited, Pizza Hut sponsored Macross and Code Geass in the past, which probably marks off KFC and Taco Bell as well.

Not to belittle Jollibee or fellow Filipinos, but what does that say about Harmony Gold, if that actually does say anything? Honestly, I'm confused.

[Protoculture]

What else apart from the usual politics of fan-wankering, fan-wanking, mod-buffing & mod-blustering in both RT.com & RTX.com nowadays?

Why the heck these people can't just play nice with each others, & accept both RT & Mac status quo as per spelled out during BW vs Tats court verdicts years ago.

Sigh ... RT fandom bleeding itself dry .....

Ah well, back to be a usual casual fan of RT, I guess. Being a Purist is such a drag, being a hardcore is such a waste, being a McKinniyist tend to be ignored, being a Universalist ain't making any friends ...

Now, back to the most important decision of the week in my personal otaku diary .... wasting my hard earned income to splurge on May'n concert ticket in KL, Malaysia next Sunday or saving up for that big honkin' Tread Legioss models on some toystore ... uhhhhh ...

[Protoculture]

Mospeada did fine without Robotech. 3 words, "Love, Live, Alive." Mospeada love seems to be hovering in the same vicinity as Orguss, and maybe a bit less than Votoms (since a new OVA for that comes out every so often). And neither of those shows had any help from "robotech."

And actually, did more than fine! Ushiwareta Yume wo Motomete tune (Mospeada OP track) was translated in Malay, some upstart indie band started playing it in gigs all over Malaysia 2 years ago, bloody hell, the Malay version of the song become a hit to youngsters & middle aged crowd in Malaysia for one simple reason, the 1980s gen who grew on Mospeada dub, the late 1990s Gen-Xers who grew on Mospeada dub & early spoilt brats of 2000s who grew on Mospeada dub!

Mospeada nostalgia RULEZZZZZZZ! BTW, the said indie band went on the become superstars both in Malaysia / Singapore / Indonesia thanks to directly ... ehhem, Mospeada!

[taksraven]

So are you implying that I'm a spambot?

Pete

No, you are a Macross Purist Dalek..... :lol:

Taksraven

[taksraven]

I have.

Fell asleep at work today reading that post Gubaba, not enough to hold me in it. (No shit too, I nearly fell off my chair....)

So how are we going to celebrate the RT 25th? Burn an effigy of Macek??

Taksraven

Edited March 1, 2010 by taksraven

[Keith]

No, you are a Macross Purist Dalek..... :lol:

Taksraven

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&id=71414