Robotech and HG License Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

I know the plot of the movie... it came to me in a flash, and now the hiring of Tom Rob Smith makes sense.

The movie's going to be a murder mystery! It'll star Tobey Maguire as a Detective Rick Hunter, a rookie trying to figure out who murdered Minmei after the Earth forces and the Zentradi got sick of her stupidity, and the fact that listening to her singing is the auditory equivalent of unanesthetized dental surgery. It'll be a tough case, with lots of twists and turns (from over 50,000 suspects, all with motive!), and at the movie's climax, Rick finds out that HE is the murderer, and turns himself in, only to be given an official pardon, a medal, and a three-rank promotion by a grateful Captain Gloval.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

OBJECTION!

*Roy Fokker thrusts his finger out*

Your honor, this man is guilty. Of murder. He said it himself.

While his motives are commendable, that does not affect his innocence.

[chrisk]

yeah, honestly this guy sounds like the last person that should be working on a project like this. I would not be surprised if he gets dumped and they try to get someone else; although they seem to be at the bottom of the barrel at this point.

I'm just glad that for the first time ever, Harmony Gold's not going around boasting about this like they did with Kasdan and the others. The guy is just not that "marketable" at this point. Even Harmony Gold's Marketing "Guru", Kevin McKeever, refuses acknowledge the writer switch on his blog more than a week after its announcement! (Instead focusing on how Transformers 2 is going to make the big bucks in the Box Office for some odd reason... )

If that's what WB is looking for (a gritty BSG style version of Macross), it may be alright.

Gritty this and gritty that... Has Watchmen and Terminator: Salvation taught us nothing?!

The movie's going to be a murder mystery!

That wouldn't look too hot in Real 3D...

Edited June 28, 2009 by chrisk

[Freiflug88]

The movie's going to be a murder mystery!

Thats fantastic news, it means my worst fears won't come true . The LAM won't have Tobey Maquire, as Breetai with ridiculus dreadlocks ordering around an enlaved humanity to mine protoculture in areas too small for the giant zentradi in a horrible sci fi flick made for and by Scientologists.

[Einherjar]

So their think tank for the script has included an old school sci-fi icon, modern primetime teen angst writer(s), and a recent prize winning suspense/thriller novelist. You know who could help balance all of this out?

A well verse Tolkenist high fantasy writer who takes too long in describing anything.

[Gubaba]

So their think tank for the script has included an old school sci-fi icon, modern primetime teen angst writer(s), and a recent prize winning suspense/thriller novelist. You know who could help balance all of this out?

A well verse Tolkenist high fantasy writer who takes too long in describing anything.

Yeah, but Robert Jordan is dead, unfortunately. Terry Goodkind might be available, though.

[Einherjar]

Yeah, but Robert Jordan is dead, unfortunately. Terry Goodkind might be available, though.

In keeping with their hiring qualifications, they have to be somewhere near the bottom of the barrel or someone new who just got recognized. Their name has to appear to be a buzz word in recent years to get people attention, and they need to have been influenced by previous works almost too much.

!

Someone call Christopher Paolini!

EDIT: Yeah, that was pretty cold, I admit it.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Einherjar

[RedWolf]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=150042

Sigh talking to this guy is like a broken record repeating itself. All I'm saying that the Robotech movie he is so excited about could end up in IP court hell.

Besides there no guarantee this movie will get off the pre-production mess.

[Bri]

[...] in a horrible sci fi flick made for and by Scientologists.

hmm...tempting... I bet the LAM will then just be a remake of Top Gun with Tom Cruise and Tobey flying F18s that transform in Legioss looka likes... It wont even need a plot and the generic aliens will just be flying F5s... heck call in Faltermeier and Berlin for a retro 80s soundtrack and we got a summer blockbuster

Edited June 28, 2009 by Bri

[Macross007]

And no real insults to RTfanPlus himself here, but:

Yee-haw. That JamesBond77, what a superior intellect. Really makes his points with logic and reason, and makes Macross sound so inviting and wonderful. Calling everything that one dislikes "gay" or "homo" makes him sound NOTHING AT ALL like an irate 10-year-old, does it?

If he's trying to speak for Macross fans, I wish he'd stop.

Sorry for the late answer Gubaba but JamesBond77 is not the only one doing this.

Read the comments of that video (yep, robotech fans stealing yet again macross vids ) by yourself :

[c

[Einherjar]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=150042

Sigh talking to this guy is like a broken record repeating itself. All I'm saying that the Robotech movie he is so excited about could end up in IP court hell.

I have trouble figuring out of people like that are just the same fans under different names or fans late to the party these days.

[chrisk]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=150042

Sigh talking to this guy is like a broken record repeating itself. All I'm saying that the Robotech movie he is so excited about could end up in IP court hell.

Sanman... ever the optimist. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose! A very interesting point he makes... trying to reconcile Spiderman's troubled history getting to the big screen to Robotech's own. I suppose the fact that we're not hearing anything about lawsuits and such means Big West gave up their rights to Macross and Robotech will make it to the big screen relatively unchallenged like the first Spiderman flick?

Besides there no guarantee this movie will get off the pre-production mess.

Is it really that simple? Die-hard Robotech fanboys believe that if WB/HG simply "Transformisizes" (i.e. add lots of weird bells and whistles) the original designs of the VF-1, battlepods, SDF-1, etc. there won't be a lawsuit.

[Gubaba]

Sorry for the late answer Gubaba but JamesBond77 is not the only one doing this.

Read the comments of that video (yep, robotech fans stealing yet again macross vids ) by yourself :

[c

Yeah, I posted a link to that vid before, because I thought it was funny. And someone here at MacrossWorld saw the link, watched the vid, posted some insults about "Homotech," and then came back here and boasted about doing so.

Seriously, if I weren't already a Macross fan, I'd look that these comments and think, "Wow, Macross fans are a bunch of douchebags! Thank goodness I'm not pathetic like them!"

Unfortunately, I can't say that. I can merely sigh and shake my head sadly...because some idiots are trying to make the rest of us look like a bunch of greasy buttholes.

[anime52k8]

Sanman... ever the optimist. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose! A very interesting point he makes... trying to reconcile Spiderman's troubled history getting to the big screen to Robotech's own. I suppose the fact that we're not hearing anything about lawsuits and such means Big West gave up their rights to Macross and Robotech will make it to the big screen relatively unchallenged like the first Spiderman flick?

Is it really that simple? Die-hard Robotech fanboys believe that if WB/HG simply "Transformisizes" (i.e. add lots of weird bells and whistles) the original designs of the VF-1, battlepods, SDF-1, etc. there won't be a lawsuit.

It may not be as simple as adding a bunch of extraneous bits and dodging a lawsuit. If they're even remotely recognizable to the original designs they could attract legal action, and the same goes with story, characters, etc. etc. To completely avoid legal action they'd need to make a movie that's has virtually nothing of the original content but the name.

As for why we haven't heard anything of Big West/studio Nue actually suing anyone is because WB/HG haven't done anything with the LAM that they can sue over, yet. They have no set designs, no Mechanical Designs, No costume/character designs; they don't even have a script yet. At this point there's no certainty that this "RLAM" is even going to get made, and there's no concrete info as to what direction they're going with if it does (big if). Now if the LAM starts making some progress (again, big if) and Big West feels that it really is going to come out and use material that they might legitimately own, than they'll probably sue the crap out of them.

[Freiflug88]

hmm...tempting... I bet the LAM will then just be a remake of Top Gun with Tom Cruise and Tobey flying F18s that transform in Legioss looka likes... It wont even need a plot and the generic aliens will just be flying F5s... heck call in Faltermeier and Berlin for a retro 80s soundtrack and we got a summer blockbuster

I like your idea, but I would rather see them pull off a re-imagined Macross Plus, the "Top gun of anime": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLl6f_Mfu4. They can have Tom and Tobey fight against each other in a transforming YF-22 vs. YF-23 competition, no need for generic aliens. Their both around 5'8 and in their 30s though so their won't be any epic David verus Golith esque fist fights, but their will still be intense fights over who gets the heart of Olivia Munn while a CG idol with the "Hyber sexualized body" of Janice schemes in the background.

Everyone will enjoy the movie except for hardcore RT fans complaining "WTF! There is no protoculutre and this isn't the Macross Saga!" HG will come up with some BS that they planned the movie at the time of the Macross Plus toy scandal and that "This is our Macross Plus, its better then Macross Saga cause you know its got a Plus sign at the end of the title, and its got a nude 3d avatar designed by our favorite horny Korean dude."

Is it really that simple? Die-hard Robotech fanboys believe that if WB/HG simply "Transformisizes" (i.e. add lots of weird bells and whistles) the original designs of the VF-1, battlepods, SDF-1, etc. there won't be a lawsuit.

Micheal Bay didn't just add bells and whistles to the orginal G1 designs. He had a team of about 300 engineers from Lucas's Industrial Light and Magic dissembling vehicles to pieces and model them and find ways of making them folded up robots in a custom made modeling program. Its obvious that a lot of the designs were inspired in part by the G1 designs, but they were still original designs that could be used without getting permission from the Japanese designers (Shinji Kawamori was one of them) who made the Japanese toys that became the transformers.

If they're even remotely recognizable to the original designs they could attract legal action, and the same goes with story, characters, etc. etc. To completely avoid legal action they'd need to make a movie that's has virtually nothing of the original content but the name

.

True, being remotely recognizeable to the original designs could attract legal action, but it would be a very weak case. Creating CG models from original sketchs that have recognizable design cues inspired by the originals can easily be judged as being legimate in court. Straight up modeling from lineart from Macross Art Books and then editing some polygons is another thing entirely.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Freiflug88

[chrisk]

Micheal Bay didn't just add bells and whistles to the orginal G1 designs. He had a team of about 300 engineers from Lucas's Industrial Light and Magic dissembling vehicles to pieces and model them and find ways of making them folded up robots in a custom made modeling program. Its obvious that a lot of the designs were inspired in part by the G1 designs, but they were still original designs that could be used without getting permission from the Japanese designers (Shinji Kawamori was one of them) who made the Japanese toys that became the transformers.

Ah, then "Inspired" must be the buzzword Harmony Gold is looking for to get around this licensing madness.

Straight up modeling from lineart from Macross Art Books and then editing some polygons is another thing entirely.

I can only imagine WB and Harmony Gold execs all huddled in a dark executive theater, watching clips from Macross Frontier, Zero and Plus to convince them how important it is to stick to the original VF-1 design. (What do you expect them to show? Shadow Chronicles?) With thousands of excellent concept artists for hire, it'll be a piece of cake to design a "reimagined" Valkyrie fighter. The fuss about "HG stealing original Macross designs" will be all for naught.

*sigh*

[Freiflug88]

Ah, then "Inspired" must be the buzzword Harmony Gold is looking for to get around this licensing madness.

Personally, if I was Harmony Gold then my argument would be that when you right down to it the VF-1 is just a F-14 with minor alterations that transforms to Gerwalk and Battloid modes, and that if using the Macross Gerwalk and Battloid modes was such a big issue then why the hell didn't Studio Nue hound Tatsunko for completely ripping off their idea of 3 mode transformation jets when Mosepeda came out in 1985? Is there some unwritten rule that states it's cool to rip off macross mecha designs for other 80s anime, but not for live action movies produced in America over 25 years later?

[Keith]

Personally, if I was Harmony Gold then my argument would be that when you right down to it the VF-1 is just a F-14 with minor alterations that transforms to Gerwalk and Battloid modes, and that if using the Macross Gerwalk and Battloid modes was such a big issue then why the hell didn't Studio Nue hound Tatsunko for completely ripping off their idea of 3 mode transformation jets when Mosepeda came out in 1985? Is there some unwritten rule that states it's cool to rip off macross mecha designs for other 80s anime, but not for live action movies produced in America over 25 years later?

Yes, yes there is, it's called HG can suck it!

[anime52k8]

Yes, yes there is, it's called HG can suck it!

I support this assertion

[Freiflug88]

Yes, yes there is, it's called HG can suck it!

Harsh, yet so true. HG has been sucking it since 1985, if we are lucky they will gag and choke themselves to death soon.

I support this assertion

No surprise there. Your new avatar still has the "ass" in assertion... literally

All this potty language has made me realized there should to be a South park parody of Robotech and HG's evil plagurizing deeds that is at least half as awesome as the emmy nominated Chinpokomon episode.

On a serious note though had Big West striped Tatsunko of its rights to Legioss because of its plagurization of Battloid and Gerwalk modes, then HG wouldn't be able to use Alpha and Betas in any future Robotech.

[Einherjar]

Looking at the LAMR from a different stance, it was probably better that HG take the plunge rather than Big West or any entity directly related to Macross doing it. At this point I wouldn't endorse a live action Macross either. We would probably be in the same situation, criticizing deliberate changes people want or are actually happening in addition to the legal situation, though in a different thread. Heck, by now we'd probably have a trailer at least with everyone here getting pissed off about what exactly you can fit into 60-90 seconds of footage. However, they wouldn't need as much expertise from a suspense thriller novelist or primetime teen sitcom writers because they're free to make it closer to the original as they want. With some minor changes to make the story easier to understand for a movie going audience, do you really need to go that far just to make a script?

Hopefully with the LAMR they go through years of preparation and blow off millions of dollars to find out what most of us here already know about it. In this case patience is not always a virtue, especially when the goal is too ambiguous then it makes you look like a chump... repeatedly. Though they'll play it off as a reimagining, the legal situation will force them to take extreme liberties with everything. They want to make it like the original series, but they have to make it in a way that won't get them sued. Now if they could only find a director/producer with the ego and gravitas to keep the act going.

[Bri]

If there was a live action movie about Macross, we would be arguing about the story, the actors, what the mecha looks like etc. Not weather it would be legal or not.

My fear about a succesfull LAMR is that it will recapitalize HG and re-establish Robotech at the expense of Macross. I sympathise with RT fans for wanting more material from their favourite show but aslong as HG keeps their stranglehold on Macross, I'd prefer to see all of their endeavours fail. Without further financial boosts my hope is that HG will lose interest in their anime portfolio and sell it off to a normal distributor like Bandai, ADV or Funimation.

[Einherjar]

Without further financial boosts my hope is that HG will lose interest in their anime portfolio and sell it off to a normal distributor like Bandai, ADV or Funimation.

With news of the return of the unseen mechs in Battletech, HG might have found a low risk way to make money for 2009 if they were involved somehow. Because of the fiasco between HG and FASA or whoever runs Battletech years before, news of the deal might be a clue that something has changed the stance of either or both companies towards working together, probably something financially related.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Einherjar

[TheLoneWolf]

On a serious note though had Big West striped Tatsunko of its rights to Legioss because of its plagurization of Battloid and Gerwalk modes

No, Big West has never done such a thing. Since I don't know what is and isn't allowed under Japanese copyright law, I couldn't tell you why.

But if I had to take a guess, I'd say that a) Big West recognizes that the Legioss is an homage to the VF-1, and b) Big West knows that no one will ever confuse the Legioss with the VF-1.

[Freiflug88]

With news of the return of the unseen mechs in Battletech, HG might have found a low risk way to make money for 2009 if they were involved somehow. Because of the fiasco between HG and FASA or whoever runs Battletech years before, news of the deal might be a clue that something has changed the stance of either or both companies towards working together, probably something financially related.

I doubt this is a sign of change after reading the article at http://catalystgamelabs.com/2009/06/24/cat...gs-back-unseen/

After much blood, sweat and tears, Catalyst Game Labs is exceptionally pleased to announce the return of these “unseen” images.

They are just allowed to use old existing images of the unseen Macross mechs as illustrations in upcoming Battletech novels nothing more. After the Big West verus Tats case HG was still able to use Macross pics, but they weren't allowed to create any new ones. All this means is that Catalyst was likely able to get in on the same deal of using imagines produced before the Big West Vs Tats decision.

No, Big West has never done such a thing. Since I don't know what is and isn't allowed under Japanese copyright law, I couldn't tell you why.

But if I had to take a guess, I'd say that a) Big West recognizes that the Legioss is an homage to the VF-1, and b) Big West knows that no one will ever confuse the Legioss with the VF-1.

The Japanese copyright and Constitution is practically identical to America's, because we wrote their current laws and Constitution while we occuptied and rebuilt Japan after WWII.

You bring up great points about how the Legioss is a homage and no one would confuse it with the VF-1, but that just kinda shows my point that Big West wasn't too upset about Tatsunko applying their Gerwalk and Battloid ideas for their own anime mecha designs.

I think in all honestly if WB uses an F-14 and just gave it Gerwalk/Battloid, then Big West would only be able to cry infringement on the Gerwalk/Battloid transformations, but not the actual jet design. The VF-1 design definitely resembles the F-14 jet design because it is a practical copy of the F-14 minus horizontal stabilizers and with a few additions such as the head turrent, but that doesn't make the F-14 jet design the property of Big Wests's by a long shot. If WB gets permission to use the F-14 from the actual US Air Force and Defense Contractors who designed the F-14 then no court Japanese or US would ever possibly side with Big West over copyright infringement of the VF-1 jet mode.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Freiflug88

[azrael]

No, Big West has never done such a thing. Since I don't know what is and isn't allowed under Japanese copyright law, I couldn't tell you why.

But if I had to take a guess, I'd say that a) Big West recognizes that the Legioss is an homage to the VF-1, and b) Big West knows that no one will ever confuse the Legioss with the VF-1.

Honestly, I'm not sure how anybody would confuse the 2. If anybody brought up that kind of argument, they would be laughed out of the lawyers' office.

[Freiflug88]

Honestly, I'm not sure how anybody would confuse the 2. If anybody brought up that kind of argument, they would be laughed out of the lawyers' office.

Of course the mecha design is visually different, but the Gerwalk and Battloid Transformations are obviously from the Macross VF-1. If Big Wests was going to claim copyright infringement over the Legioss it would be over the transformation ideas like when Fox sued Universal Studios over the copyright infringment of "34 distinct ideas" stolen from Star Wars that were used in the orginal 1978 BSG.

http://io9.com/326482/

Edited June 29, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Bri]

The way I understand IP rights: the principle of a fighter transforming to a battloid and gerwalk can't be copyrighted as it's not a defined work or vidual design. The names can be trademarked, the fighter, gerwalk and battloid designs are copyrighted and the transformation mechanism can be patented. Therefore IP rights cannot prevent others from using the idea as long as the design, transformation mechanism and names differ.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Bri

[JB0]

The legal standing of "look and feel" cases, which is what a Valk VS Legioss case would boil down to, varies greatly with era.

In the modern US courts, you'd probably get laughed out.

I can't imagine that the modern japanese courts would take such a case any more seriously, given look and feel encourages some of the most frivolous copyright lawsuits imaginable.

[Freiflug88]

The way I understand IP rights: the principle of a fighter transforming to a battloid and gerwalk can't be copyrighted as it's not a defined work or vidual design. The names can be trademarked, the fighter, gerwalk and battloid designs are copyrighted and the transformation mechanism can be patented. Therefore IP rights cannot prevent others from using the idea as long as the design, transformation mechanism and names differ.

That makes sense. I also found a video of the Legioss transforming as its been awhile seen I've actually watched Mosepeda/New Generation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-IGkWs0ujw. I have noticed that their is a noticeable difference in the actual transformation process and mechanism, but yet their is a strong feeling of similarity between them as I watch them transform.

The legal standing of "look and feel" cases, which is what a Valk VS Legioss case would boil down to, varies greatly with era.

In the modern US courts, you'd probably get laughed out.

I can't imagine that the modern japanese courts would take such a case any more seriously, given look and feel encourages some of the most frivolous copyright lawsuits imaginable.

I can only imagine a LARM Veritech verus Macross Valk case would face a similar situation if WB applies their own transformation process to their Veritech designs like Bay's team did with Transformers.

[Bri]

I can only imagine a LARM Veritech verus Macross Valk case would face a similar situation if WB applies their own transformation process to their Veritech designs like Bay's team did with Transformers.

Indeed, the designs won't be much of a problem. The potential issue is more with the storyline. How would they use Rick Hunter and co. without using the story of the Macross saga, which by definition is an edit of Macross, and for which they have no license to make derivative footage, LAM or otherwise.

[Agent-GHQ]

I'm getting migraine from all this licensing issue. Why can't they all just get along and become one bad-ass unit. Thus, best for goods in the market. And the movie, if that ever follow through?

[MacrossMan]

I'm getting migraine from all this licensing issue. Why can't they all just get along and become one bad-ass unit. Thus, best for goods in the market. And the movie, if that ever follow through?

Amen to that brother!

[Einherjar]

I'm getting migraine from all this licensing issue. Why can't they all just get along and become one bad-ass unit. Thus, best for goods in the market. And the movie, if that ever follow through?

It's not democracy at work here, it's capitalism.

[Freiflug88]

Why can't they all just get along and become one bad-ass unit.

Of course! All we need to do is trying broadcasting Minmay's song Ai Oboete Imasu ka to Big West, Tatsunko, and Harmony Gold's headquarters at the same time. If that love song can make the Macross, Zentradi, and Meltradi space fleets all get along and become one bad-ass unit imagine the corporate love triangle it will create... Wait love triangle... poo this isn't going to work cause some one always gets hurt, left out, or dies at the end of a love triangle! Woe is me! Is it mere coincidence or fate that the very series about the sad drama of Love triangles is stuck eternally in a copyright triangular feud.