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41 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So what happens if Burnham breaks the crystal in the future? Does that undo everything?

Sorry... just hate to see ol' Chris end up a melty briquette in a hoverchair.

Nope.  According to that Klingon monk, Pike's fate was set in stone as soon as he took the time crystal.  He is forever doomed to suffer career-ending, life-altering radiation injuries on a training cruise that leave him confined to a life support chair talking in beeps.

Breaking it a thousand years after the fact probably wouldn't do anything, since his fate would've long since run its course by then.

 

41 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Right: it sounds like the varying conflicts merged together as they grew, until it became a world war.

Yup, basically the same as the Unification Wars in Macross.

A ton of little conflicts that spiraled out of control into a great big global mess... just this mess went nuclear and lasted for like forty years.

 

41 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

You do have a point; that said, being confined to a hoverchair as a virtual vegetable has got to be the worst kind of hell for a man like him. I think his mind was still fairly clear, though his body was irreparably broken.

Which is why Talos IV was his ticket to sanity... the Talosians could at least give him a perfectly convincing illusion of health and wellbeing even while his body was an overcooked potato in high tech tinfoil.

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31 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope.  According to that Klingon monk, Pike's fate was set in stone as soon as he took the time crystal.  He is forever doomed to suffer career-ending, life-altering radiation injuries on a training cruise that leave him confined to a life support chair talking in beeps.

Bill and Ted: "BOGUS!!!!"

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I still say, Pike's future of getting injured and confined to the chair, and then living out the rest of his life 'whole and hale' with the woman he loves, could be his best future. He can still die, so he still has to take care of himself and others, and he is not going to hide from that future, because if he does so those cadets will die. They have names and faces now, and in fact they are still kids, so you know he is going to do what he can to protect them.

And as for at first trying to hide from it, who wouldn't? Fear grips everyone in different ways, but trying to hide from it is only natural.

 

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3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Bill and Ted: "BOGUS!!!!"

It's a bum deal... but compared to some of the awful fates met by Starfleet officers over the years, spending the remainder of his life living a telepathic ideal existence is a pretty nice retirement package.  (It's no Curzon Dax getting Jamaharon'd to death on Risa... but they can't all be winners, right?  Talk about "going out with a bang".)

 

 

2 hours ago, Thom said:

I still say, Pike's future of getting injured and confined to the chair, and then living out the rest of his life 'whole and hale' with the woman he loves, could be his best future. He can still die, so he still has to take care of himself and others, and he is not going to hide from that future, because if he does so those cadets will die. They have names and faces now, and in fact they are still kids, so you know he is going to do what he can to protect them.

In a way, that's basically the reason that Pike is predestined to end up in the chair.

He's a man with principles, and he's not about to let other people die to save his own skin.  Especially not a bunch of kids on an Academy training cruise.  Regardless of whether fate is going to pull a But Thou Must on him, like every other Starfleet captain protagonist he's going to jump at the call anyway because it's in his nature.  His fate is inescapable at least as much because of the kind of person he is as it is a preordained future he locked himself into via the time crystal.

 

2 hours ago, Thom said:

And as for at first trying to hide from it, who wouldn't? Fear grips everyone in different ways, but trying to hide from it is only natural.

As upset as he would naturally be by the prospect of his horrific fate - not knowing he's actually destined to live out his final years in an idyllic fantasy world on Talos IV - he probably hasn't considered that he's temporally bulletproof yet.

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I've watched two eps so far... and they work for me.

Now, on Pike knowing his fate. They have only shown him in the chair (so he at least knows that much) but does he know about the Talosian aspect of his fate? If yes, will we see him making a pack with Spock to ensure things go as planned? or does the Taloians only come into play after their planet is discovered?

that begs another question: Will they recreate, as a episode, the events that occurred in the TOS pilot episode in 1965? 

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3 hours ago, TehPW said:

Will they recreate, as a episode, the events that occurred in the TOS pilot episode in 1965? 

No, footage from "The Cage" was already used as a flashback in "If Memory Serves," an episode of Discovery's second season (which I take it you missed).

Pike's encounter with the Talosians happened five years before Strange New Worlds, during his first five-year mission.

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Which is why Talos IV was his ticket to sanity... the Talosians could at least give him a perfectly convincing illusion of health and wellbeing even while his body was an overcooked potato in high tech tinfoil.

Why do I see you chasing poor Pike down a corridor yelling "Get back here! They're serving STEAK!!!" while he's going as fast as his hoverchair will go? :rofl:

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

snip...

As upset as he would naturally be by the prospect of his horrific fate - not knowing he's actually destined to live out his final years in an idyllic fantasy world on Talos IV - he probably hasn't considered that he's temporally bulletproof yet.

Agree on all, except the last. I'm firmly in the belief that he can still die. He is not bulletproof in any fashion, and if he does die, those kids will die as well simply because he will not be there.

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20 minutes ago, Thom said:

Agree on all, except the last. I'm firmly in the belief that he can still die. He is not bulletproof in any fashion, and if he does die, those kids will die as well simply because he will not be there.

Even if the timeline itself doesn't pull a But Thou Must, you can bet your bottom dollar a timecop'll show up and put right what Pike is trying to put wrong.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even if the timeline itself doesn't pull a But Thou Must, you can bet your bottom dollar a timecop'll show up and put right what Pike is trying to put wrong.

If Jean-Claude Van Damme shows up, I'm blaming you:

1314376500_JeanClaudeVanDammeStarshipSplit.jpg.6e8ffdfa29a6d79d090d29e316bef17b.jpg

Edited by pengbuzz
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1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

If Jean-Claude Van Damme shows up, I'm blaming you:

1314376500_JeanClaudeVanDammeStarshipSplit.jpg.6e8ffdfa29a6d79d090d29e316bef17b.jpg

Great now I’m hearing Enya!

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5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

If Jean-Claude Van Damme shows up, I'm blaming you:

1314376500_JeanClaudeVanDammeStarshipSplit.jpg.6e8ffdfa29a6d79d090d29e316bef17b.jpg

Shouldn't you be thanking me? 😛

Though I wanna see a scenario like in the climax of the Department of Temporal Investigations novel series, where there's a three-agency pileup over who gets to arrest the person responsible for mucking with the timeline between the 24th century Department of Temporal Investigations, the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission, and the 31st century Federation Temporal Agency.  Pike tries to do a runner and finds himself hemmed in by an ever-increasing number of time-travelers popping in from who-knows-where telling him to get history back on track.  (Bonus points if one of them is Jonathan Archer, since one plan for him was that he was going to turn out to be Future Guy, the one pulling the Suliban's strings.)

 

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

Great now I’m hearing Enya!

Sorry, I'll ask my dad to turn his stereo down. 😛 

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So, without revealing any spoilers for "Ghosts of Illyria," I want to question a statement Doctor M'Benga makes in the episode.  He refers to the Enterprise as "the flagship of Starfleet," a distinction I only recall being applied to Picard's Galaxy-class Enterprise.  If memory serves, there were fourteen identical Constitution-class ships in service during Pike's tenure (some of which continued to be in service even after Enterprise was destroyed), so it seems disingenuous at best to call Enterprise the flagship.

Are we simply to assume this is another example of the writers not doing their homework?

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Well they have apparently also retconned the new Constitution class from 288 m to 442 m (although helps explain the greater interior space the ship seems to have).

So them making the Enterprise a flagship is just another drop in the bucket at this point.

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Haven’t seen the episode yet, but it does sound like it. They don’t seem to Understand that the name Enterprise and it’s impact on Star Fleet if not the the Federation as a whole didn’t really happen until after Kirks missions and Star Fleet adopting Enterprise's Delta as the symbol for ALL of Star Fleet. That being said, yes Archer’s Enterprise also made a BIG impact too so if there is going to be a Flag Ship and one of the Connies was going to be it Enterprise kind of still makes sense from a historical standpoint. 🤷‍♂️ Even in the real world, at least in the U.S. the name Enterprise for ships has significance  

Chris

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2 hours ago, lechuck said:

Well they have apparently also retconned the new Constitution class from 288 m to 442 m (although helps explain the greater interior space the ship seems to have).

I guess that explains the vertical orientation of the warp core, then...

They're not even trying to pretend it's the same ship. 🙄

 

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Posted (edited)

Don't care really. Size discrepencies or not, it looks good and the show is good. To my mind, the ship is still the same size as TOS no matter what they say or what they show. The only way that'll change is if they show a TOS Connie next to the SNW Connie, and the TOS looks like it's the size of a rowboat.

Same with Flagship comment. Sure, The Enterprise defined Starfleet during it's second five year mission, but it's first five year wouldn't have been a pleasure cruise, and it could very well have held the flagship stasus among the other Connies at that time.

As to the arrow insignia, that too is a toss-out as they were usuing it already on Disco.

We're just going to have accept some level of inconsistencty.

Edited by Thom
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7 hours ago, tekering said:

So, without revealing any spoilers for "Ghosts of Illyria," I want to question a statement Doctor M'Benga makes in the episode.  He refers to the Enterprise as "the flagship of Starfleet," a distinction I only recall being applied to Picard's Galaxy-class Enterprise. 

Your recollection is correct.

The first time an Enterprise was referred to as the Federation flagship was in TNG, for the Enterprise-D.

 

7 hours ago, tekering said:

If memory serves, there were fourteen identical Constitution-class ships in service during Pike's tenure (some of which continued to be in service even after Enterprise was destroyed), so it seems disingenuous at best to call Enterprise the flagship.

Twelve, according to TOS "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and development materials for the series published in The Making of Star Trek.

Mind you, Star Trek has never exactly been using the term correctly either.  In its proper context, a "flagship" is a temporary designation denoting the ship an admiral in command is embarked aboard.  Its more informal meaning, as the lead ship in a group of ships, also doesn't quite fit because the Enterprise - all of the Enterprises - generally operate alone.  So it's pretty arbitrary, and the term has never been required to mean a unique or distinctive ship either.  Flagships historically tend to be the largest classes simply because the fleet's admiral needs more room for the bureaucratic busywork of coordinating a fleet.

 

7 hours ago, tekering said:

Are we simply to assume this is another example of the writers not doing their homework?

Eh... a very definite "maybe", IMO.

Her namesake, CV-6 USS Enterprise, was an Admiral's flagship at Midway... so one could argue Enterprise was probably always the nominal flagship even if the topic is never brought up prior to TNG.

 

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

Haven’t seen the episode yet, but it does sound like it. They don’t seem to Understand that the name Enterprise and it’s impact on Star Fleet if not the the Federation as a whole didn’t really happen until after Kirks missions and Star Fleet adopting Enterprise's Delta as the symbol for ALL of Star Fleet.

So, that's actually a popular misconception.

StarTrek.com definitively settled the matter last year.  All of Starfleet was always supposed to be wearing the Enterprise's arrowhead delta, the other emblems were a goof by the wardrobe department.  (The letter is very tongue-in-cheek, with Bob Justman signing as "Chief Inquisitor" and imploring wardrobe lead Bill Theiss to ensure uniforms for future episodes used the proper emblem "Under penalty of death!", with a postscript asking for a litearlly-engraved apology.)

https://www.startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained

 

3 hours ago, Dobber said:

That being said, yes Archer’s Enterprise also made a BIG impact too so if there is going to be a Flag Ship and one of the Connies was going to be it Enterprise kind of still makes sense from a historical standpoint. 🤷‍♂️ Even in the real world, at least in the U.S. the name Enterprise for ships has significance  

Archer's Enterprise being a retcon aside... even in its own era it didn't actually end up as the flagship.  (The novelverse ran with the idea of the Enterprise getting trashed in the final battles of the Earth-Romulan War and Starfleet's first true flagship being the Columbia-class USS Endeavour.)

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Two episodes in, and I have to admit... this ain't bad.  It has potential.

I really feel like if the writers can resist the temptation to delve into the kind of cheap drama Discovery and Picard used, this could really be what saves Star Trek.

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Two episodes in, and I have to admit... this ain't bad.  It has potential.

I really feel like if the writers can resist the temptation to delve into the kind of cheap drama Discovery and Picard used, this could really be what saves Star Trek.

3 in for me and I agree.

I wrote this on another site about the latest episode. Sorry about the different color.

I liked this episode, particularly the end portion with the resolutions for #1 and the Dr. I’m really liking this show, while it is not ground breaking and I understand that some want it to be and can’t fault them for that either, there is something to be said about using the “tried and true” formula that Trek had in the past that I really appreciate. I say, give the show time to grow a bit and maybe it can push boundaries into new territory as it does, but for now I just enjoy it for the nostalgic story telling it seems to have thus far. Trek has been trying to be different for the past Decade and most haven’t seemed to like it much, so I say let it be what it was for a bit and let it chart a new course back out, hopefully on a better path than it was.

Chris

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Posted (edited)

Though I liked this episode, I don't think it was as good as the first two. Not a problem though, as I still enjoyed it. Just felt it was a bit abrupt in places, and for being titled 'Ghosts of Illyria,' they didn't have much to do with the ghosts. It was really two different plots that could have been used to flush out two full episodes.

One thing I don't like about episodic story telling, is that very often there is no lead-in to a revelation, such as Una being an Illyrian herself, or the prejudice against augments. I think La'an's backstory about the Gorn could have been replaced with one about her dealing with that prejudice, and then using that to pre-stage in this episode the same reactions Una was afraid of. Instead, her revelation about being Illyrian falls a little flat without any pre-set.

But that is only a minor quibble. I like the plague aspect and how it was transferred, and M'benga's deepening backstory. Very nice.

As an aside, anyone else notice the 'unfortunate' confluence of the seam lines on Una's uniform tunic, or is it just the adolescent still inside me?:p

Edited by Thom
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Posted (edited)

Anyone else think the Ensign at the beginning, the first one affected, looked like Timothee Chalamet…Paul Atraidees from the new Dune.

Chris

Edited by Dobber
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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... a very definite "maybe", IMO.

Her namesake, CV-6 USS Enterprise, was an Admiral's flagship at Midway... so one could argue Enterprise was probably always the nominal flagship even if the topic is never brought up prior to TNG.

That would have been Rear Admiral Raymond Spruance; normally, it would have been Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, but he had a severe health issue and Spruance was picked to replace him. In WWII, Enterprise's reputation preceded her and she was known as "The Grey Ghost" (due to the fact that on three separate occasions during the war, the Japanese announced that she had been sunk in battle, only to find out the hard way later on that she wasn't).

 

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So it depends on what definition of "flagship" you're using. 

First definition is:

"the ship in a fleet which carries the commanding admiral" 

Which in the case of the Battle of Midway would have been USS Yorktown as it was Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher who was in overall command of Task Force 16 and 17.

However, in Star Trek, they're probably using the other definition:

"the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.)" 

Which in Pike's time were the Constitution-class starships, so it's not much of a stretch for Enterprise to be the flagship, and it was not something that was ever explicitly named in TOS. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Lolicon said:

So it depends on what definition of "flagship" you're using. 

First definition is:

"the ship in a fleet which carries the commanding admiral" 

Which in the case of the Battle of Midway would have been USS Yorktown as it was Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher who was in overall command of Task Force 16 and 17.

However, in Star Trek, they're probably using the other definition:

"the finest, largest, or most important one of a group of things (such as products, stores, etc.)" 

Which in Pike's time were the Constitution-class starships, so it's not much of a stretch for Enterprise to be the flagship, and it was not something that was ever explicitly named in TOS. 

Actually, Fletcher commanded Yorktown and Task Force 17; Spruance commanded Task Force 16, which had Enterprise and Hornet. And while Fletcher may have nominally been in charge overall due to seniority, when Yorktown was struck at Midway, he transferred his flag to the cruiser Astoria and Spruance became tactically in charge of the US Naval forces at Midway.

Now as to TOS Trek:  for Enterprise in the TOS, she was never considered a "flagship"; her fame (as preciously pointed out), came when she alone survived out of the original 12 Connies that were launched. It was after the exploits of Kirk that Starfleet (and the Federation) began putting emphasis on the name Enterprise as the pride of the fleet.

Edited by pengbuzz
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Now as to TOS Trek:  for Enterprise in the TOS, she was never considered a "flagship"; her fame (as preciously pointed out), came when she alone survived out of the original 12 Connies that were launched. It was after the exploits of Kirk that Starfleet (and the Federation) began putting emphasis on the name Enterprise as the pride of the fleet.

Wait, what?  Since when were the other eleven Constitution-class ships lost?

IIRC, the official line on the Enteprise-A was that she was one of Enterprise's sister ships that was rechristened for the purpose.  Gene Roddenberry's original explanation for how the Enterprise-A was available so quickly after the original's loss was that she was a rechristened, previously-decommissioned, Yorktown.  Some unofficial works claimed she was originally named Ti-Ho.

EDIT: IIRC, Gene Roddenberry's original plan for Jean-Luc Picard's old command, the Stargazer, was for her to also be an old Constitution-class ship.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wait, what?  Since when were the other eleven Constitution-class ships lost?

IIRC, the official line on the Enteprise-A was that she was one of Enterprise's sister ships that was rechristened for the purpose.  Gene Roddenberry's original explanation for how the Enterprise-A was available so quickly after the original's loss was that she was a rechristened, previously-decommissioned, Yorktown.  Some unofficial works claimed she was originally named Ti-Ho.

EDIT: IIRC, Gene Roddenberry's original plan for Jean-Luc Picard's old command, the Stargazer, was for her to also be an old Constitution-class ship.

Checking my notes, the info apparently comes from Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise ( Also mentions Ti-Ho). Last I checked, memory alpha says it's official, but not sure now just how canon much of it is.

*goes into corner and sips chocolate shake*

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wait, what?  Since when were the other eleven Constitution-class ships lost?

 

Don't know where the official bit would be but 11 or the original 12 were lost - more were made to replace those.  The FASA role playing game (not cannon in any way) even gave a list of the others in the class besides the first 12 (40 or so alltogether).

Last I remember A was a ground up build and not a refit.

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I heard the Yorktown explanation for the A, and it does suit better. They would have some older hulls drifting about and, considering the shape she was in in ST5, it looked like it was a more of an honorary action. The A had a lot of problems after departing space dock. I'm more inclined to believe she was just an old ship showing her age, rather than Starfleet doing a brand-new build of a thirty year old design. And if that explanation did come from GR's own mouth, then that's that.

Though it was all gooey and emotional seeing the old lines of the 'new' Enterprise, looking back I would have preferred it had been an Excelsior hull that had take the name right then.

I thought I saw a fan-edit of that scene showing that... Maybe not.

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12 hours ago, Thom said:

 The A had a lot of problems after departing space dock.

That is FAR more typical of new construction.  All new ships get a shakedown cruise for just that reason.  Plus, kicking the crew off another ship (and the captain) to give it to Kirk and crew would be odd, even for ST reality.  But the real hard truth of the matter is, nobody thought about it AT ALL till after the movie was released.

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