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Game of Thrones Theory Discussion. Books. Show. Spoilers.


Gakken85
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Fourth'ed.

And yes, she's definitely channeling the T-1000 with that walk, and the way she turns her head.

Ok, so I'm not the only who said "what is she the T-1000 from T2?". Still I enjoyed the episode, above all Arya without ever saying a word, Oh I have a skill that you don't.... it's called darkness.

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A lot less T and A in this season.

I've noticed that too. You think it's on purpose by the production team? Or a natural storywise result of Littlefinger leaving the pimpin' business? :lol:

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Neither, I'd say there's less opportunity for the sights of the flesh. Much war, much warging, much traveling. Hell, that scene with Yara in the Volantis fleshpot was surprising as all heck.

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WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loved just about everything in this episode. All three Dragons in action, Tyrion being his usual awesome self, Jon Snow being a Badass and above all as my blood started pumping in anticipation to witnessing Ramsey finally meet his Doom. I still felt he deserved a more grisly death, but I'm glad that Bastard got what he deserved! A long wait til next week!

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A most satisfying episode.

RIP, Wun Wun.

I agree. Ramsay deserves to have everything he's done to Theon and all the others, done to him. Would've been poetic justice if the first part his dogs went for had been his dick.

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I think so, too.

Come to think of it, so does Nymeria. I've totally forgotten what the show says about it, but the book had a scene where Arya dreamed/warged into Nymeria and she had a pack of her own. Might be a Chekov's gun, might not. I can never tell with Martin.

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Not quite too happy with

Rickon getting offed. But as soon as we saw he was captured, we knew he was absolutely screwed. There was no way a male Stark heir would be allowed to live because that would threaten Ramsay's hold.

As for the battle itself, I was happy because the show has never really showed much in the way of a pitch battle despite the wars taking place. Loved the part when Jon Snow was randomly making his way through the chaos of battle, the impact. Even happier seeing an army from the Vale show up to save the day. With Ramsay now dog food, House Bolton is effectively dead. Ramsay saw to killing everyone else off, including Roose, so his passing ends the line.

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Nymeria is definitely a Chekhov's gun. Martin said so himself.

Had to Google "Chekhov's gun" - I now consider myself a more informed viewer. Certainly familiar with the concept, it's ever present in TV's and movies, I'd just never heard a name for it before.

Not quite too happy with

Rickon getting offed. But as soon as we saw he was captured, we knew he was absolutely screwed. There was no way a male Stark heir would be allowed to live because that would threaten Ramsay's hold.

As for the battle itself, I was happy because the show has never really showed much in the way of a pitch battle despite the wars taking place. Loved the part when Jon Snow was randomly making his way through the chaos of battle, the impact. Even happier seeing an army from the Vale show up to save the day. With Ramsay now dog food, House Bolton is effectively dead. Ramsay saw to killing everyone else off, including Roose, so his passing ends the line.

Regarding your first point, the event in and of itself had more impact for me. I don't even remember what that character had done that was of any importance. In fact in my memory the most influence they've ever had was to be the catalyst for the start of the actual battle.

Second point - AGREED.

-b.

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Did she actually know though? I saw that she sent a letter asking for help, but my read on it was that she never got a reply. Obs deus ex machina means the knights of the vale were gonna save the day, but the characters wouldn't know that.

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What an epic episode....from

the beginning with Tyrion Dany in check in regards to her Father...something I've been wanting for a while now...to the Dragons showing up. I've read some people had a problem with the Masters just thinking the Dragons where no big deal, but, IIRC, the last time they saw the Dragons they were still pretty small...when Dany took the unsullied from them and burned them...so maybe they didn't realize how BIG at least Drogon has become. Anyway, the whole scene was fantastic along with the later scene with Theon and Yara.

The Battle of the Badtards was wonderfully shot....I almost thought Rickon was going to make it. The shot of Jon facing down the Calvary charging him is so EPIC! The battle itself is very frenzied and so well done...Jon save some of his people and some of his save him. I particularly loved the claustrophobic/suffocating feeling of when Jon was knocked down and getting buried under the on rush of men. The Vale just decimating the the Bolton shield men was awesome and I personally loved Jon just, alone facing Ramsay after everything, and just kicking the crap out of him. The look on Ramsay when Jon first reached him was awesome, and to the actors credit, Ramsay just letting a little smile show on Ramsay's face while he is getting beaten...perfect. I really think Ramsay, even in the end, thought he was going to talk his way out of it, or that his position as Lord of House Bolton was going to matter, but as both his one soldier said...their Army is gone and later Sansa said the House is done and it will be forgotten as will he. Perfect.;) only nitpick is why did his hounds wait for Sansa to finish her speech before approaching Ramsay?

They can't let this slide next episode:

Sansa got thousands killed--including her brother--by not telling Jon that the Knights of the Vale were coming.

I thought about that too, but also remember..

had they known about the Vales forces their strategy would've been different and the Boltons would've adjusted accordingly....probably leading to a long siege where the castle wouldn't have been taken so easily. I also want to hear what will become of the the Karstarks..Tormond killed the traitor Lord Umber but what happened to Lord Karstark? I want to hear what will happen with to the houses that joined the Boltons, likely the houses that didn't help the Starks but didn't help the Boltons will be forgiven...due to Rob's bungling of the North....but what's left of the Umber's and Karstark's are and should be screwed. Also what will become of the Dredfort? I hope we learn of some of the justice that will be delved in the North. The Mormonts should fair well and become a major house in the north maybe receiving the Karstarks or Umber's land? Problem is the Starks gave no Army either. The Wildlings fulfilled their pledge.

Chris

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Because it is lame writing?

So, we let them all die then? Let Ramsay rule the North? Sounds like a plan. I assume your preferred version of the end game is the White Walkers come south and kill everyone?

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IMO Rickon's death wasn't emotional enough. It'd help if he actually spoke some lines this season. Maybe have a scene of him in Bolton's dungeon. He was the baby of the stark family, the last time most of his siblings saw him he was 6 years old.

Speaking of which, does Game of Thrones take place in real time? Judging by Rickon's age i'm guessing it does. So that means Winterfell has been occupied for like 3 years. It'd explain how Yara and Theon were able to get to Meeren so quick. I wasn't expecting that to happen till much latter. This season has definitely accelerated the pace of the show. Though i think the pace needed to pick up, it does seem its picked up too much.

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As far as the time frame goes, you have to accept that there are significant periods of time passing between episodes. Otherwise GoT would go on for 15 seasons because of how much GRRM has dragged out the story in the books so he can age the younger characters.

It's probably safe to say months have passed since episode 1 of this season.

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IMO Rickon's death wasn't emotional enough. It'd help if he actually spoke some lines this season. Maybe have a scene of him in Bolton's dungeon. He was the baby of the stark family, the last time most of his siblings saw him he was 6 years old.

Speaking of which, does Game of Thrones take place in real time? Judging by Rickon's age i'm guessing it does. So that means Winterfell has been occupied for like 3 years. It'd explain how Yara and Theon were able to get to Meeren so quick. I wasn't expecting that to happen till much latter. This season has definitely accelerated the pace of the show. Though i think the pace needed to pick up, it does seem its picked up too much.

I fully agree with you on Rickon. I have felt like this season was two seasons that they have pushed together and am very curious to read about the development of it. They decided to bring back dozens of characters who really didn't even need to come back just to kill them off because they feel like they have to kill people. The list of characters that returned this season is huge and most of them have had nearly zero screen time, some didn't even have lines.

Osha (dead), Rickon (dead), Blackfish (dead), Hound, Thoros, Berric, Balon greyjoy (dead), And these are the returning characters that have been in 2 or less episodes maybe 3 in the finale. While I have enjoyed this season far more then season 5 I feel like a large amount of plots were reworked and in turn under developed. Like we've seen Sam twice (?) Euron greyjoy the "new" big bad guy has had 2 scenes. Did the show runners have bigger plans for Dorne but realized how nasty the fan backlash was and cut the plot out of this season? And yea I can try to lay some blame on GRRM but the show has already taken some huge liberties with the plot so most of these problems fall on the show for the underdeveloped characters. There is no shock value when characters who the audience hadn't seen in 3 years is killed off. Most "casual" viewers didn't even remember Rickon/Osha/Blackfish/Balon.

On a more positive note. Great episode! Loved Tyrion telling Dany how it is when she wanted to kill thousands of people just because she was pissed. And the pure Chaos of the battle was wonderful (even if the 20 feet of dead bodies was silly...white walker zombie material?) every scene with Tormand was great and what a fitting end for Ramsey!

So for the Finale we have to wrap up...

Sam - Going to Old town still? If so will he run into a Jorah trying to find a cure there maybe Euron will raid old town looking for a horn.

Arya - We don't NEED anymore but I'd like something to justify her 2 years of nothing

Bran - Tower of Joy part 2 HYPE and something else maybe he crosses the wall and his brand shuts down the magic protecting it.

Jon/Sansa - Jon needs to confront her on the Vale army... she kinda got all of Jon's men killed and their little brother by holding back that card.

Davos/Mel - Maybe the end of Mellisandre?

Dany/Tyrion/Theon/Asha - Single scene of setting sail?

Kings landing - Cersei burns down the sept...maybe with Tommen inside by accident? What was Margerys plan?

Jaime - Comes back to Kings Landing to see the destruction his sister's done.

Hound/Brotherhood - nothing?

Drone - Varys getting their backing for Dany?

With all those plots we have a TON to cover and not leave loose ends.

TL:DR - To many under developed characters being reintroduced and killed But still a fantastic season for the most part and HYPED for the finale.

*Still waiting for book 6*

Edit - Where is Ghost?!?! Did Jon leave him in charge of the Wall? Lord commander Ghost?

Edited by bob joe mac
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So, we let them all die then? Let Ramsay rule the North? Sounds like a plan. I assume your preferred version of the end game is the White Walkers come south and kill everyone?

How many last minute saves will it take before you decide it isn't just lazy writing? We already have at least 3 now...

Edited by Dynaman
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The battle made for some uncomfortable viewing. That was one gruesome and violent spectacle. Much more graphic than the other battles we've seen.

The biggest takeaway from me this episode is the wedge that's been driven between Jon and Sansa. She didn't tell him about the Knights of the Vale and there will be a price to pay for Littlefinger's assistance. Moreover Sansa will be a lot more confident and will probably doubt Jon and his leadership. Specially after how he handled so poorly his forces in battle (sorry guys, he simply let his men down by storming like that). She is now the head of House Stark (until Bran shows up at least).

This episode certainly seemed to have a message of empowering the female characters. The Khalesi, Yara, Sansa, all making better decisions than the men that surround them. Look to seeing Cersei raising all kinds of hell in the season finale too.


How many last minute saves will it take before you decide it isn't just lazy writing? We already have at least 3 now...

This was plenty foreshadowed so I don't consider it lazy writing at all. It was obvious that the Knights were going to come and save the day. And a talented fighting lot they are.

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This was plenty foreshadowed so I don't consider it lazy writing at all. It was obvious that the Knights were going to come and save the day. And a talented fighting lot they are.

Once I'll forgive, twice is pushing it, three times is over the edge. What we end up with is John Snow the unkillable character - no matter how badly he screws up. It is a very far way to fall from earlier in the show/books.

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While not a spoiler we are seeing characters finally converging north and south. I suppose most will eventually meet in the middle, probably at King's Landing as the series winds down. How many more seasons can we expect, two?

7 next season, 6 in the final season. Also, the War for the Dawn is going to take place in the North, so I expect most of the action to be occurring there.

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Once I'll forgive, twice is pushing it, three times is over the edge. What we end up with is John Snow the unkillable character - no matter how badly he screws up. It is a very far way to fall from earlier in the show/books.

We're witnessing the new Age of Heroes, and Jon is on a hero's journey. He's special. This has been plain for a long time. That he rode out after Rickon doesn't make him stupid; it makes him human. It's exactly what Ned would have done. In doing so he nearly gets himself killed, but he survives. Why? Because he is meant for greater things. That's how the great mythological tales go.

Again, I'll ask you, is your personal vision for the story that everyone dies to the White Walkers? I honestly want to know what you expected out of A Song of Ice and Fire.

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Again, I'll ask you, is your personal vision for the story that everyone dies to the White Walkers? I honestly want to know what you expected out of A Song of Ice and Fire.

You can't distinguish between the point that is being made and the plot of the show. It is not why characters survive, it is how!

One of the things that's really great about ASOIAF is that it forces you to think and pay attention.

The paradox of GoT for me is that I seldom get what I want - which is for the 'good' guys to win. They seldom do, which turns out to be justified because, usually, they deserved to lose. So I end up getting what I really want, which is to be surprised and entertained. This is why I also disliked the last second saves from earlier this season: because they were cheap and repetitive (I was almost expecting Lady Moremont to save someone... Davos, maybe? ;) ). Although I don't think the Vale showing up at the end was nearly as bad. It was a bit like Stannis showing up beyond the Wall, but far more predictable - it was largely obvious who Sansa was writing to.

I think in the end we all knew the better bastard was going to win - Littlefinger. ;)

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Jon had no choice but to charge, in either instance. He wasn't about to just sit back and watch what Ramsey was going to do to his brother. And he had no choice but to advance to avoid the arrows. Hence his look of, well sh!t, Ramsey's ploy worked and got me out here on the field of battle...alone. It was a lose, lose or lose proposition and he stayed true to character.

And it's so obvious Sansa is changed by way of extreme trauma. Hence her smile at the very end. She may not have even known the Knights would be available, even though the odds were good that they would be. Either way, her character is very much in the mindset of "f" everyone.

It's also clear this season has changed from earlier seasons where heroes died vs. heroes live. I enjoy it more, but I get the complaint that it's counter earlier seasons and could be construed as taking the "easy" way out. But the good guys can't always die, even on Game of Thrones.

-b.

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I assume that had Jon not gone out after Rickon, that battle plays out MUCH differently. Their defensive battle plan likely would have saved many lives, and they'd have been in a better position when the Vale arrived.

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