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Is it fair to say that the bigger the weapon, physically, the higher its destructive potential? The end result is the same, but a bigger weapon would generate a bigger beam, yes?

It's a good indicator when comparing two weapons of similar functionality, but it's by no means a hard rule IRL.

Now, in anime, of course, it's a much harder rule. Why would you draw a big impressive-looking gun that was weak?

And as noted, a bigger gun ALSO provides space for a bigger power supply and cooling mechanism, enabling MORE POWER YEAH. But actual beam size doesn't really matter

Realistically, a beam weapon should be rated in power output(wattage). A wider beam of a given wattage will be LESS powerful, as a smaller portion of that power is hitting any specific point.

It's like the difference between hammering a nail into a board or beating the hammer directly on the wood. Exact same force, but one way goes all the way through and the other is just denting the surface a bit.

There are advantages to spreading the force out over a wider area, though. It makes it easier to hit a target.

If you want to kill a mosquito, you don't punch it with a fist for maximum power. You spread your hand out for maximum coverage. You have enough power that ANY hit will kill, so strike the largest area possible.

Spreading the beam also makes it possible to hit OTHER targets in close proximity. The Grand Cannon attack was an excellent demonstration of this in Macross, as it apparently swept a rather large wedge through the zentradi fleet.

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Realistically, a beam weapon should be rated in power output(wattage). A wider beam of a given wattage will be LESS powerful, as a smaller portion of that power is hitting any specific point.

While this is true for laser and particle beam weapons, it's not quite applicable to weapons which utilize heavy quanta... since those involve more exotic principles and there's not a direct relationship between energy input and energy conveyed to the target. All the lethal force comes from the focused fusion reaction of the heavy quanta. (If we were to sit down and work it out, we're probably still talking probably hundreds of gigawatts of energy conveyed to the target for even the smaller shipboard turret-based implementations.)

The more conventional energy weapons (lasers, beam machine guns, etc.) are rated in output wattage on the rare occasions that they're actually quantified. For instance, the VF-1's coaxial lasers are rated at 5,000KW, Master File cites the VF-19's rear-facing beam gun at 9,500KW and the beam cannon on the VF-1's Strike Pack at "dozens" of megawatts, and the SF-3A's anti-ship beam guns are rated at 750MW each.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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wow, that's pretty damn powerful. I think the most powerful beam weapon I can remember from Gundam was rated at 79.8MW.

Macross tends to do things on a greater scale than Gundam does... particularly when it comes to things like weapons and power generation.

The VF-1 Valkyrie's 5,000KW-class laser cannons are considered a light secondary weapon in Macross, but in Gundam's Universal Century that same 5,000KW power rating would put it on the heavy end of energy weaponry for much of the timeline. Generator output-wise, the VF-1 Valkyrie's producing just under 1,000 times the output of the RX-78-2 (1,300MW vs 1.380MW), and it only goes up from there.

(As a side note, while the VF-1's reactor output may seem arbitrary and excessive at a glance, there is actually a good reason for it that's grounded in the physics of space flight. Thermonuclear reaction engines use MHD plasma ion thrusters for propulsive force in space, and that technology requires a LOT of power to get the kind of instantaneous thrust figures the VF-1 produces... we're talking a power requirement as much as 40KW per 1 newton of thrust. To do what it does with that 650MW output, the VF-1's engines have to be upwards of 40% more efficient than even the best modern MHD plasma ion engine... likely significantly more.)

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Noob question: was FB2012 originally set up in year 2019? If so why did they change it to 2012?

The question goes because the characters look older compared to those in SDF Macross tv series.

No, it was originally 2012, but in some ancillary documents got changed to 2018 for Macross II. Lord knows why.
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Noob question: was FB2012 originally set up in year 2019? If so why did they change it to 2012?

The question goes because the characters look older compared to those in SDF Macross tv series.

The events depicted in Macross Flashback 2012 were originally storyboarded for use in the final episode of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, which was set in 2012. They were dropped from the episode plan due to runtime constraints, but when it was finally animated as Flashback 2012 it was still set in 2012.

When Macross II's creators were building their own Macross timeline, they did some weird stuff with Flashback 2012... sort of on the same level with how DYRL? later became an in-series movie from 2031. As they have it, Megaroad-01 didn't actually leave the Sol system until 2014, and the Flashback 2012 OVA was "an episode" which marked the 10th anniversary of the First Space War. (That whole timeline is structured rather differently.)

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The events depicted in Macross Flashback 2012 were originally storyboarded for use in the final episode of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, which was set in 2012. They were dropped from the episode plan due to runtime constraints, but when it was finally animated as Flashback 2012 it was still set in 2012.

Are you sure about that, Seto? I've always seen that the scenes from Macross Flashback 2012 was intended use at the end of Do You Remember Love?, hence why it appears at the end of the newer releases of DYRL and also why the Macross keeps the appearance that it had in the movie.

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Are you sure about that, Seto? I've always seen that the scenes from Macross Flashback 2012 was intended use at the end of Do You Remember Love?, hence why it appears at the end of the newer releases of DYRL and also why the Macross keeps the appearance that it had in the movie.

Yes, I'm sure. The original animation in Macross Flashback 2012 was the realization of a set of scenes that had originally been included in the final episode (#36) of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but were removed in the storyboard phase to keep the episode from exceeding its allotted run time. Ultimately, that meant that the SDF-2 design they created for that episode (see Macross Perfect Memory pg150) went unused and a new design was subsequently created for Macross Flashback 2012, which is the Megaroad-class emigrant ship design.

Because Flashback 2012 incorporated some DYRL? aesthetics like the Macross w/ ARMDs, and because it was produced after DYRL?, it tends to get rolled into DYRL? as an epilogue even though it's really more an epilogue to the entire First Space War story arc (and was conceived as an epilogue to the original series).

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This really intrigues me. Now I'm curious about the reasoning behind the various designs. What was the SDF-2 meant to be if it went unused? Was it going to be the original Megaroad? What was the DYRL? style SDF-1 supposed to be? Was it added later to make it match up with DYRL? or was that originally how it was going to look and if so, why the different "arm ships" depicted?

So many questions...

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This really intrigues me. Now I'm curious about the reasoning behind the various designs. What was the SDF-2 meant to be if it went unused? Was it going to be the original Megaroad? What was the DYRL? style SDF-1 supposed to be? Was it added later to make it match up with DYRL? or was that originally how it was going to look and if so, why the different "arm ships" depicted?

So many questions...

Well... In-story rationale, as far as I can tell, is that the SDF-2 started construction on the Moon in 2004 as a battleship (i.e. what you see in Perfect Memory). When construction on it resumed, soon after Space War I, it was mostly redesigned to be an emigration ship (i.e. what we saw in FB2012).

As for why the ARMDs instead of the Daedalus and Prometheus, I assume the staff just wanted to do things differently than the TV series.

Edited by Gubaba
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This really intrigues me. Now I'm curious about the reasoning behind the various designs. What was the SDF-2 meant to be if it went unused? Was it going to be the original Megaroad? What was the DYRL? style SDF-1 supposed to be? Was it added later to make it match up with DYRL? or was that originally how it was going to look and if so, why the different "arm ships" depicted?

So many questions...

The original (pre-FB2012) rationale for the SDF-2 was that it was constructed at a shipyard on the moon to be the second Macross-class space battleship in the UN Spacy's fleet. It was dubbed Megaroad when construction on the ship resumed after the end of the war, and with the announcement of the Human Emigration Project it was retasked to serve as an ad hoc emigrant ship. Had it been animated as planned in the original Macross series, the SDF-2 Megaroad would've still been a Macross-class military vessel when it was completed, and would've been retrofitted with civilian living space like the SDF-1 Macross was.

The bit about the SDF-2's design being modified into the first of a new class of emigrant ships was a later addition to the timeline.

The DYRL?-style SDF-1 Macross in Flashback 2012 is supposed to be the SDF-1 Macross... nothing more, nothing less. There wasn't a concrete view of which version of the First Space War was the correct one at the time Flashback 2012 was made. That didn't occur until Macross II and Macross Plus came out, with Macross II treating DYRL? as the more accurate of the two and the supplemental materials that came out with Macross Plus establishing DYRL? as an in-universe movie.

The explanation that would ultimately be given for the DYRL? SDF-1 in Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus was that that's what it ended up looking like after the eight month complete overhaul it underwent to repair the damage it had sustained during both the final battle of the First Space War and Quamzin's suicide attack. The ARMD-class space carriers that replaced the naval carriers were simply part of the overhaul... and the Macross had (in-universe) always been intended to have ARMDs for arms anyway.

I always figured the hull in DYRL is simply a SDFN production series hull standing in for the SDF1 which is still sitting in the middle of Macross City. They weren't going to rip the original hull out of the middle of the city just to film a movie.

That was my thought as well... that DYRL? was likely filmed using one of the Macross-class SDFNs. It doesn't necessarily need to be the SDFN-01 General (Takeshi?) Hayase, since they could always change the hull number temporarily the way Star Trek IV did when the USS Ranger (CV-61) stood in for the USS Enterprise (CVN-65). They would've had twelve to choose from.

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Yes, I'm sure. The original animation in Macross Flashback 2012 was the realization of a set of scenes that had originally been included in the final episode (#36) of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but were removed in the storyboard phase to keep the episode from exceeding its allotted run time. Ultimately, that meant that the SDF-2 design they created for that episode (see Macross Perfect Memory pg150) went unused and a new design was subsequently created for Macross Flashback 2012, which is the Megaroad-class emigrant ship design.

Because Flashback 2012 incorporated some DYRL? aesthetics like the Macross w/ ARMDs, and because it was produced after DYRL?, it tends to get rolled into DYRL? as an epilogue even though it's really more an epilogue to the entire First Space War story arc (and was conceived as an epilogue to the original series).

So, basically, I've been misinformed for the past 30 years? Wouldn't be the first time, though!

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The original (pre-FB2012) rationale for the SDF-2 was that it was constructed at a shipyard on the moon to be the second Macross-class space battleship in the UN Spacy's fleet. It was dubbed Megaroad when construction on the ship resumed after the end of the war, and with the announcement of the Human Emigration Project it was retasked to serve as an ad hoc emigrant ship. Had it been animated as planned in the original Macross series, the SDF-2 Megaroad would've still been a Macross-class military vessel when it was completed, and would've been retrofitted with civilian living space like the SDF-1 Macross was.

The bit about the SDF-2's design being modified into the first of a new class of emigrant ships was a later addition to the timeline.

The DYRL?-style SDF-1 Macross in Flashback 2012 is supposed to be the SDF-1 Macross... nothing more, nothing less. There wasn't a concrete view of which version of the First Space War was the correct one at the time Flashback 2012 was made. That didn't occur until Macross II and Macross Plus came out, with Macross II treating DYRL? as the more accurate of the two and the supplemental materials that came out with Macross Plus establishing DYRL? as an in-universe movie.

The explanation that would ultimately be given for the DYRL? SDF-1 in Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus was that that's what it ended up looking like after the eight month complete overhaul it underwent to repair the damage it had sustained during both the final battle of the First Space War and Quamzin's suicide attack. The ARMD-class space carriers that replaced the naval carriers were simply part of the overhaul... and the Macross had (in-universe) always been intended to have ARMDs for arms anyway.

That was my thought as well... that DYRL? was likely filmed using one of the Macross-class SDFNs. It doesn't necessarily need to be the SDFN-01 General (Takeshi?) Hayase, since they could always change the hull number temporarily the way Star Trek IV did when the USS Ranger (CV-61) stood in for the USS Enterprise (CVN-65). They would've had twelve to choose from.

Thanks Seto - that actually completely satisfies my curiosity in one fell swoop! I like the idea that it was rebuilt after the two most damaging events in the SDF-1's existence and the ARMDs were simply returned to their rightful positions. After all, the Daedelus and Promethius were accidents, due to the unplanned emergency fold. And given the ARMDs were nowhere nearby (and 1 and 2 destroyed in the first wave attack by the Zentraedi forces) it fits very well indeed.

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I can't swear to it, but it doesn't sound right to me.

The legs don't attach at the front of the nose cone, so the overall height should be similar to other variants.

If the cockpit affects overall dimensions, it'd push in a different direction, and make the battroid, ummm... "well-hung."

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The proportions of the VF-1D variant appear identical to the other VF-1 Valkyries, only difference is the "collar" area in Battroid mode, which seems to imply a slightly longer cockpit in the mid-section of the frame. However, the head unit seems situated at the same height as the other head units despite the "collar" being mounted slightly higher. It does appear as if the VF-1D head unit has less of a "neck" that the VF-1S or VF-1J, so that may account for why the "D" has the same height despite the elevated "collar".

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Random one:

In Battroid mode, is the VF-1D taller than other VF-1 variants? I'm thinking that it is due to the longer cockpit - translating into greater height when vertical.

Thoughts?

Nah, the VF-1D Valkyrie isn't any taller in battroid than any other variant of the VF-1 Valkyrie.

Stonewell/Bellcom didn't really make the VF-1D's cockpit block all that much larger, they made room to extend the canopy and add the second seat by taking a good deal of equipment out of the back end of the cockpit block and seating it a little further back in the airframe. Some Macross sources (like Macross II's VF History piece in B-Club 79 and the main timeline's Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1) assert that the reason the VF-1D was swiftly replaced by a dedicated training variant (the VT-1) was that one of the systems compromised to make room for the instructor seat was the escape/survival system... so they couldn't be safely used as training aircraft in space.

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If planet Edén was discovered in 2013. Who did that? Megaroad-01 was launched in 2012 but I dont think that fleet did it right?

BR.

It was likely one of the short-range fleets that charted the paths for larger colony fleets. Megaroad-based fleets, being classified as a long-range fleet, were designed to go much farther so Eden would have been a pit stop. They could have stopped at Eden, but that would have defeated the purpose of going as far out into the galaxy as they could.

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The ARMD-class space carriers that replaced the naval carriers were simply part of the overhaul... and the Macross had (in-universe) always been intended to have ARMDs for arms anyway.

The interesting thing about the ARMDs is that that they were only built for the SDFN battleships and the carriers were replaced fairly quickly by the ARMD II series of carriers for general fleet deployment. If the capital ship we've seen in the Delta trailer is indeed a Macross type battleship, the arms are NOT ARMD carriers anymore. So the question of how long the ARMD carriers were used may come into question.

Edited by Zinjo
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The interesting thing about the ARMDs is that that they were only built for the SDFN battleships and the carriers were replaced fairly quickly by the ARMD II series of carriers for general fleet deployment. If the capital ship we've seen in the Delta trailer is indeed a Macross type battleship, the arms are NOT ARMD carriers anymore. So the question of how long the ARMD carriers were used may come into question.

Okay, there are a couple issues with that...

What Master File calls the ARMD II-class are the Do You Remember Love?-style ARMDs. The rebuilt SDF-1 Macross and the twelve new Macross-class SDFNs were always equipped with that type. The new ARMD I and ARMD II docked to the Macross were among the very first ships of that type built in the main continuity. Master File isn't entirely reliable on this, as it forgets that little detail and its version mentions the ARMD II-class as something much newer, cropping up around the time the ARMD's hull numbers reached 200+.

There's no indication that the ARMD-class (TV type) were sent out and then recalled in official sources. We have no idea how many were built of each type before the classes was phased out of production in favor of the newer Uraga-class escort battle carriers and the Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMDs. There are still several TV series-type ARMD-class space carriers kicking around in some stories set in the 2040's (e.g. Macross 7 Trash and the game version of Macross Plus). We also see that they were still using some ARMDs in emigrant fleets including the Macross-1 fleet seen in the opening exposition of Macross 7.

With respect to the ship in the Macross Delta trailer... it's obvious at a glance that it's a Macross Quarter-class variant. All that's changed is they rounded off a lot of the points (like the front of the torso and pelvis) and stuck one or two extra guns on it. The configuration of the torso block, the shoulders, the head, the BASTER-L and BASTER-R battery ships on the back... look at the closeup 34 seconds in.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, after reading the last few comments, I have to ask:

1. Do we know how many SDF-1 type ships were built? Did it become a Class of it's own?

2. Did SDF-2 get skipped because of the Megaroad?

3. If the SDF-2 was the Megaroad, was the Megaroad a class unto itself, and how did that affect construction of additional Macross type ships?

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According to what I've read, there would be 13 SDF Macross-class ships in total, the original SDF-1 plus the twelve SDFN ships, which are the mass production versions of the SDF-1.

The SDF-2 construction was halted just after the final battle of Space War I in February 2010. Construction resumed sometime thereafter, but the priority of the UNG changed after Space War I in that they wanted colonization ships. So the SDF-2 was redesigned while still under construction into the Megaroad-01, a colonization vessel.

Yes, the Megaroad became a class of ship and there were many built. Most recent trivia I know is there were at least 13 vessels of the Megaroad class commissioned.

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So, after reading the last few comments, I have to ask:

1. Do we know how many SDF-1 type ships were built? Did it become a Class of it's own?

Technically, 13 "and a half".

There's the initial, converted Supervision Army warship (SDF-1), the unfinished SDF-2 that was converted into the first Megaroad-class emigrant ship, and then the twelve postwar "mass-production" Macross-class ships (SDFN-1 thru 12) modeled on the SDF-1 Macross's design. I say "mass production" in slightly sarcastic quotes because, according to Macross Chronicle1, each production type SDFN is unique because they were constructed in part with systems taken from scrapped Zentradi warships.

For convenience's sake, I suppose they're probably collectively the Macross-class.

2. Did SDF-2 get skipped because of the Megaroad?

No, based on what's seen in Macross Frontier and said in Macross Chronicle2, the hull classification symbol "SDF" was passed to the Megaroad-class emigrant ships starting with the SDF-2 Megaroad-01 in 2012. SDF-3 was Megaroad-02, and so on. The 12 production Macross-class ships were given the hull symbol "SDFN" and started over from 1. (So far, we have had mention of the SDFN-1 General Hayase, and seen the SDFN-4 General Bruno J. Global and SDFN-8 General Vrlitwhai Kridanik.)

post-2536-0-64679700-1447955898_thumb.png

3. If the SDF-2 was the Megaroad, was the Megaroad a class unto itself, and how did that affect construction of additional Macross type ships?

Yes, the SDF-2 Megaroad-01 was the first ship of the Megaroad-class, at least 25 of which were laid down at various shipyards in the Sol system. (No exact number is given, and as Macross Chronicle says a "great number" were built, there may be more than one per emigrant fleet at times as there were with some New Macross-class emigrant fleets like Macross-1 and Macross-5.)

The production Macross-class ships were supposedly used as advanced reconnaissance ahead of the early emigrant fleets, and some were seconded to other operations (like the SDFN-4's assignment to the ill-fated 117th Research Fleet) after their emigrant fleets found new homes. Others, like SDFN-8, apparently were retained by the emigrant fleets after settlement... SDFN-8 having become "Vrlitwhai City" on Uroboros by 2060.

1. Technology Sheet 06A.

2. Worldguide Sheet 12C.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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So, maybe this question has been cleared up about 40 pages ago, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

At the end of Zero, Shin claims that the "fallout" from the reaction bombs will kill the Mayan residents. I thought that reaction bombs were pair-annihilation bombs, and not nuclear. Was this a mistranslation on the subs I watched?

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So, maybe this question has been cleared up about 40 pages ago, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

At the end of Zero, Shin claims that the "fallout" from the reaction bombs will kill the Mayan residents. I thought that reaction bombs were pair-annihilation bombs, and not nuclear. Was this a mistranslation on the subs I watched?

Antimatter reaction bombs are later. At Zero's point in the timeline, they're fusion weapons.
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So, maybe this question has been cleared up about 40 pages ago, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

At the end of Zero, Shin claims that the "fallout" from the reaction bombs will kill the Mayan residents. I thought that reaction bombs were pair-annihilation bombs, and not nuclear. Was this a mistranslation on the subs I watched?

Like JB0 said, the pair-annihilation (antimatter) reaction warheads were a later innovation... circa Macross 7.

(It doesn't look like pair-annihilation reaction weapons ever actually replaced thermonuclear reaction weapons outright... they seem to just be one megadeath nastier, for foes who have it coming. Most of the reaction warheads in the Macross series appear to be of the thermonuclear type, which use the same extradimensional physics as reaction power systems and Macross Cannons to produce vast amounts of heat energy from a fusion-like reaction.)

Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet 09A "Reaction Weapons" indicates that the initial models of reaction warhead that were used during the Unification Wars did have the potential to create some residual radioactive effects. They don't say why, but the issue was apparently solved when they built later models of reaction warhead that were used in the First Space War and after.

(I have a physics-based theory about why there might be residual radioactivity, but it's purely speculative.)

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Like JB0 said, the pair-annihilation (antimatter) reaction warheads were a later innovation... circa Macross 7.

(It doesn't look like pair-annihilation reaction weapons ever actually replaced thermonuclear reaction weapons outright... they seem to just be one megadeath nastier, for foes who have it coming. Most of the reaction warheads in the Macross series appear to be of the thermonuclear type, which use the same extradimensional physics as reaction power systems and Macross Cannons to produce vast amounts of heat energy from a fusion-like reaction.)

Macross Chronicle's Technology Sheet 09A "Reaction Weapons" indicates that the initial models of reaction warhead that were used during the Unification Wars did have the potential to create some residual radioactive effects. They don't say why, but the issue was apparently solved when they built later models of reaction warhead that were used in the First Space War and after.

(I have a physics-based theory about why there might be residual radioactivity, but it's purely speculative.)

It might be easier to bring up what Kawamori-san stated about Reaction Weapons: they're basically nuclear weapons with a different name - the name change happened due to sensitivities in Japan about having or using nuclear bombs (if memory serves, it can be found on the Macross Compendium).

In short: Reaction Bombs = nuclear bombs (at least the earlier and initial renditions of them).

Edited by sketchley
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