HG and Robotech Debates

[Funkenstein]

I question the appeal of three dire wars all in a row. Yeah it can get kind of silly when one franchise has each interation face a new dire threat (then again Macross is kind of silly) but trying to do it serious business style using someone else's materials is asking for failure. You can't turn Captain Planet into Warhammer 40k no matter how much you try.

With Warhammer, anything can happen http://www.boingboing.net/2008/05/18/hello...y-comes-to.html

Tis the grimdark future indeed.

[VFTF1]

I actually think Hikaru would be the one to quit and take care of the kids. Think about hit, he's never really been cut out for command, isn't a particularly exceptional pilot, and no matter what, Misa would wear the pants in the family.

Hm.

Wouldn't it be better to go the Robotech route and make BOTH OF THEM leaders of the whole world? And then show Rick doubting if he can do it, because the 1980s Rodimus Prime complex was kewl?? And then show them perfectly in love, perfectly bantering and flirting with eachother and in full command of legions of super battle cruisers that can blow things up?

....

Anyways - Keith - this is a great subject to discuss (your post, not my sarcastic Robotech reference)...

I wonder...is Misa really the one who wears the proverbial pants in the relationship? Ostensibly yes...but... see... ok - here's the thing - YES - she makes all the decisions. But question: what guides her decisions? LOVE. Love of Hikaru Ichijo.

See - that's why in an ironic way, it's Hikaru who wears the pants by not doing anything but being himself. She's so head over heals in love with him that she'll always end up doing things his way... Or - if HE ends up doing things her way, she'll always end up feeling guilty about chewing him out and being a stubborn old shrew.

Ah - how I love thos two. How much tenderness there is in their interaction..

But no - I don't think Misa would have children and ditch them. I mean - look how she reacted to Millia's baby. I know technically women generally love babies - but she would be a terrific mom, I think.

Maybe when the kid reaches like 8 years of age, she'd go back to work - but I couldn't see her leaving the baby when it's a...well...you know - baby. I think she'd want to be there. And I think she'd like Hikaru to be there too.

But that's just probably my sentimentalism talking.

But see - isn't it better to have a closed Macross series where all that's left of Hikaru and Misa are our own personal dreams based on the imprint their love left on our hearts?

This is a question in reference to Happy Penguin's pondering whether it's better to show what happens to them ala Robotech or whether the Macross "leave it be" way is better.

Not knowing has its' sweet touches too. We know they found love and eachother in a crazy universe - and that's enough.

I really could care less after that if Hikaru perished bravely at the Battle of B'plak't'mochook choo, if Misa commanded a fleet of supergalacticscazofractic VZBDTBP-19-16-34-234 fighters, whether it was found that Rick Hunter was the descendent of Zor who himself was the descendent of Spor, who was demi-god of the galaxy and keeper of the sacred pit of Garmargelterskelter...

You get the point.

Construct a decent, good love story and let it be. Love stories - like all stories - should know how to end properly.

Pete

[Lolicon]

This is what HG did to "Rick" and "Lisa":

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/11/08/

[Bri]

But that raises the question... is more necessarily better?

Macross allows the main characters of its original series to gracefully leave the stage... Misa, Hikaru, and Minmay sail off into the proverbial sunset aboard the Megaroad-01 to spread humanity's culture across the stars. It lets them leave the stage on a high note, and with their dignity intact... and while it was not intended at the time, it leaves the door open for future generations of characters.

The one thing I don't like about the Megaroad-01 story is the vague comment that the ship is missing and never heard from again. Would have been nice if any sequel had just simply mentioned that the ship was missing or lost or whatever. Personally I wish the ending of the original triangle was left at the FB2012 ending; take off and never mention them again.

[taksraven]

CRAP, THAT'S RIGHT! THE COLORING BOOKS!!!

I just did a search, and check it out:

My soul weeps at these pages.

But yeah...too kiddie, especially for a cartoon that bored kiddies to tears (I remember most of the other kids in school deciding that the show had too much love story BS, not enough giant robots fighting. Voltron, they claimed, was much better).

Technically, I don't think I ever "carried" the card anywhere, except to one of my drawers, were I put it away for a while, and then eventually threw it out (at least, I guess I did. I have no recollection of doing so, but I sure don't have it anymore.)

I fixed up the text on the first one so it now says what it always should have.....

Taksraven

[Marzan]

The one thing I don't like about the Megaroad-01 story is the vague comment that the ship is missing and never heard from again. Would have been nice if any sequel had just simply mentioned that the ship was missing or lost or whatever. Personally I wish the ending of the original triangle was left at the FB2012 ending; take off and never mention them again.

But wasn't the story that the ship dissapeared?

With such unbelievably popular characters, it was lose, lose whatever they did to them.

[Wanzerfan]

CRAP, THAT'S RIGHT! THE COLORING BOOKS!!!

I just did a search, and check it out:

My soul weeps at these pages.

But yeah...too kiddie, especially for a cartoon that bored kiddies to tears (I remember most of the other kids in school deciding that the show had too much love story BS, not enough giant robots fighting. Voltron, they claimed, was much better).

Technically, I don't think I ever "carried" the card anywhere, except to one of my drawers, were I put it away for a while, and then eventually threw it out (at least, I guess I did. I have no recollection of doing so, but I sure don't have it anymore.)

If you color in the way the bottom picture suggests, you'll mispell that character's Robotech name.

Way to go, Harmony Gold guys.

[Gubaba]

If you color in the way the bottom picture suggests, you'll mispell that character's Robotech name.

Way to go, Harmony Gold guys.

I was hoping someone would notice that...

[jenius]

If there was truly a high demand for it, then it would have been met. As such, demand is always infinite - since all of us want an infinite amount. But demand is always measure relative to cost/price - which is the best measure of the reality of scarcity that we have. And of course as the price goes up, so the per-unit demand is lower. As the price receeds, per-unit demand is higher.

Now by your own testimony, the series was "too expensive" for HG to sustain - question is - why? I mean, cost wise, it was really no different from other cartoons of the time which were able to go ahead and be made.

So what made it "too expensive" ?

In my view - it had to be the low demand. That is to say, there was too little demand at the specific price point where supplying that demand could have been cost-effective and therefore profitable.

No, demand is FINITE, not inFINITE. Think about water, you need it to live but you don't spend your entire day drinking it. As with every commodity there comes a point where it over-saturates and people don't want it any more. Even hot women... what's the joke? "For every hot woman out there there's one guy who is sick of f**king her." None of this really has anything to do with Robotech production though.

So, now onto the more relevant stuff. Sentinels got slammed by the value of the Yen shooting up dramatically. Would it have mattered if demand was through the roof? Not so much. Unfortunately, Matchbox had the rights to Robotech merchandise and they weren't exactly experts in the field. Since Matchbox was footing the bill it was up to them to produce a product that would stoke demand but they failed to do this. Imagine if the toys for Transformers were just as bad as Matchbox's non-transforming VF-1S toy. So, Matchbox made crappy toys, they sold poorly (which doesn't tell you much about the demand for GOOD toys), and then Robotech was no longer a hot enough property for them to stick through funding the next season. That's not really HG's fault, all indications were that Robotech was intensely popular for a short while.

[HappyPenguins]

No, demand is FINITE, not inFINITE. Think about water, you need it to live but you don't spend your entire day drinking it. As with every commodity there comes a point where it over-saturates and people don't want it any more. Even hot women... what's the joke? "For every hot woman out there there's one guy who is sick of f**king her." None of this really has anything to do with Robotech production though.

So, now onto the more relevant stuff. Sentinels got slammed by the value of the Yen shooting up dramatically. Would it have mattered if demand was through the roof? Not so much. Unfortunately, Matchbox had the rights to Robotech merchandise and they weren't exactly experts in the field. Since Matchbox was footing the bill it was up to them to produce a product that would stoke demand but they failed to do this. Imagine if the toys for Transformers were just as bad as Matchbox's non-transforming VF-1S toy. So, Matchbox made crappy toys, they sold poorly (which doesn't tell you much about the demand for GOOD toys), and then Robotech was no longer a hot enough property for them to stick through funding the next season. That's not really HG's fault, all indications were that Robotech was intensely popular for a short while.

yeah it was for a short time, hell it was even advertised in a few movies..

in "Monster Squad" in the form of a little boy's PJs and in "The Lost Boys", the comico comics clearly visible in the background of the comic shop scene.

[Beltane70]

I really love fantasy versus reality, especially when Robotech is involved

Fantasy, from guess who.

ENGLAND IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FAN BASE I KNOW.

I asked a friend in England about this. She told me that the fan base wasn't very big, just very vocal.

[Seto Kaiba]

I really love fantasy versus reality, especially when Robotech is involved

Honestly, between Bendo's borderline-Freudian obsession with bringing up his penis in conversation and the delusions fans of Robotech have about its popularity and influence in the industry, there's enough psychological issues in Robotech fanbase to keep the entire American Psychiatric Association on the gravy train for life.

I asked a friend in England about this. She told me that the fan base wasn't very big, just very vocal.

Since they're such a noisy lot, maybe MEMO's counting each one as several people because they're loud enough to be?

[Einherjar]

CRAP, THAT'S RIGHT! THE COLORING BOOKS!!!

I just did a search, and check it out:

My soul weeps at these pages.

The Macross looks like it's spazzing out or something. I wonder who HG credited the artwork to for these pages?

Edited November 19, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

The Macross looks like it's spazzing out or something. I wonder who HG credited the artwork to for these pages?

Its not spazzing out...it's WALKING! Isn't that the most awesome thing you've ever seen?

And they say Robotech added nothing new to the mix...

[VFTF1]

No, demand is FINITE, not inFINITE. Think about water, you need it to live but you don't spend your entire day drinking it. As with every commodity there comes a point where it over-saturates and people don't want it any more. Even hot women... what's the joke? "For every hot woman out there there's one guy who is sick of f**king her." None of this really has anything to do with Robotech production though.

Yes, that's called the point of diminishing marginal returns - or there's always opportunity cost. But I did note that while demand is theoretically infinitie (we can imagine wanting everything and generally tend to), real demand, measured in the real world, is of course finite because it is tied to costs at every unit of said demand. I thought I was clear, but I guess I wasn't. And saying that there is a point where it over satures is exactly the same as my saying that at each higher price level, per-unit demand is lower. Remember- "price level" does not just mean "money price" - it means opportunity cost - time, other options, any alternative. So I think we're talking about the same thing, just using slightly different words to get to the same point.

So, now onto the more relevant stuff. Sentinels got slammed by the value of the Yen shooting up dramatically. Would it have mattered if demand was through the roof? Not so much. Unfortunately, Matchbox had the rights to Robotech merchandise and they weren't exactly experts in the field. Since Matchbox was footing the bill it was up to them to produce a product that would stoke demand but they failed to do this. Imagine if the toys for Transformers were just as bad as Matchbox's non-transforming VF-1S toy. So, Matchbox made crappy toys, they sold poorly (which doesn't tell you much about the demand for GOOD toys), and then Robotech was no longer a hot enough property for them to stick through funding the next season. That's not really HG's fault, all indications were that Robotech was intensely popular for a short while.

Yeah - that's the basic explanation they give in Robotech Art III if I remember correctly.

I guess you're right that it must have been super-popular for like...a minute.

It reminds me of that one TV show in the 80s - Dr. Fad.

Do people remember him/it?

The show was about "fads" - and people would come on the show on...show off their latest gizmo that they considered amazing - and it would fade into irrelevence a day later.

Maybe HG should have come on the show to show off Robotech?

Fantasy, from guess who.

QUOTE

ENGLAND IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FAN BASE I KNOW.

I asked a friend in England about this. She told me that the fan base wasn't very big, just very vocal.

No no...

You've got it all wrong - MEMO is talking about ONE PERSON. His friend, who happens to be called England and is a big fan OF BASE. As in ACE OF BASE.

I mean, we all know that if it was the fanbase in the UK he was talking about, then he'd say "England HAS one of the biggest FAN BASES I know of."

As such, this is just a case of MEMO's curious writing style coming back to bite him.

He's talking about a person - John England, who is a fan of Ace of Base (the music group).

Nothing to do with Robotech.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

The Macross looks like it's spazzing out or something. I wonder who HG credited the artwork to for these pages?

Shhh... it has parkinson's... you'll embarrass it!

[VFTF1]

Just so you guys know - the coloring book is probably itself a rip off.

Yesterday, while rummaging for something to read, I found an old Voltron coloring book. It has the same "fill in the letter and discover the character's name" format.

So - either HG licensed this to one company that also had the license from others and just had a set pattern... or the Robotech coloring book is a rip off of the Voltron coloring book

I'll post some scans later today

At least it's something to pass the time...

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

Just so you guys know - the coloring book is probably itself a rip off.

Yesterday, while rummaging for something to read, I found an old Voltron coloring book. It has the same "fill in the letter and discover the character's name" format.

Eh... I'm no expert on coloring books, but that seems like the sort of thing that would be probably be a fairly common gimmick in that particular medium. After all, there are only so many permutations of "color in this picture" when you're working to create a licensed product like that. It's probably indicative of nothing more than Robotech following a well-established industry trend in the production of their licensed merchandise, rather than malicious or lazy copying.

[Keith]

Hm.

Wouldn't it be better to go the Robotech route and make BOTH OF THEM leaders of the whole world? And then show Rick doubting if he can do it, because the 1980s Rodimus Prime complex was kewl?? And then show them perfectly in love, perfectly bantering and flirting with eachother and in full command of legions of super battle cruisers that can blow things up?

....

Anyways - Keith - this is a great subject to discuss (your post, not my sarcastic Robotech reference)...

I wonder...is Misa really the one who wears the proverbial pants in the relationship? Ostensibly yes...but... see... ok - here's the thing - YES - she makes all the decisions. But question: what guides her decisions? LOVE. Love of Hikaru Ichijo.

See - that's why in an ironic way, it's Hikaru who wears the pants by not doing anything but being himself. She's so head over heals in love with him that she'll always end up doing things his way... Or - if HE ends up doing things her way, she'll always end up feeling guilty about chewing him out and being a stubborn old shrew.

Ah - how I love thos two. How much tenderness there is in their interaction..

But no - I don't think Misa would have children and ditch them. I mean - look how she reacted to Millia's baby. I know technically women generally love babies - but she would be a terrific mom, I think.

Maybe when the kid reaches like 8 years of age, she'd go back to work - but I couldn't see her leaving the baby when it's a...well...you know - baby. I think she'd want to be there. And I think she'd like Hikaru to be there too.

But that's just probably my sentimentalism talking.

But see - isn't it better to have a closed Macross series where all that's left of Hikaru and Misa are our own personal dreams based on the imprint their love left on our hearts?

This is a question in reference to Happy Penguin's pondering whether it's better to show what happens to them ala Robotech or whether the Macross "leave it be" way is better.

Not knowing has its' sweet touches too. We know they found love and eachother in a crazy universe - and that's enough.

I really could care less after that if Hikaru perished bravely at the Battle of B'plak't'mochook choo, if Misa commanded a fleet of supergalacticscazofractic VZBDTBP-19-16-34-234 fighters, whether it was found that Rick Hunter was the descendent of Zor who himself was the descendent of Spor, who was demi-god of the galaxy and keeper of the sacred pit of Garmargelterskelter...

You get the point.

Construct a decent, good love story and let it be. Love stories - like all stories - should know how to end properly.

Pete

The fact that Misa still took the Captains seat of the Megaroad says all you need to know. She was commited to doing it regardless, and Hikaru was committed to going with her. Being a mother doesn't equate to dropping everything and staying home. Misa being teh capable person she is would be quite capable of spending work time on the bridge, and home time with the baby, but you'd better believe she'd hold up her Captains responsibilities.

[Wanzerfan]

I really love fantasy versus reality, especially when Robotech is involved

Fantasy, from guess who.

I asked a friend in England about this. She told me that the fan base wasn't very big, just very vocal.

I had a friend in England when I was on Robotech.com. I wonder how goldfish (that's his Robotech.com's screename) is doing.

[taksraven]

The fact that Misa still took the Captains seat of the Megaroad says all you need to know. She was commited to doing it regardless, and Hikaru was committed to going with her. Being a mother doesn't equate to dropping everything and staying home. Misa being teh capable person she is would be quite capable of spending work time on the bridge, and home time with the baby, but you'd better believe she'd hold up her Captains responsibilities.

*switches into HG Dalek mode*

YOU MUST SUPPORT FAMILY VALUES!! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A WOMAN TO WORK AND RAISE CHILDREN AS WELL!! SHE MUST STAY AT HOME WITH THE CHILDREN!! SHE IS A MEMBER OF THE WEAKER SEX!! ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH THIS MUST BE EXTERMINATED!!

[Einherjar]

*switches into HG Dalek mode*

YOU MUST SUPPORT FAMILY VALUES!! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A WOMAN TO WORK AND RAISE CHILDREN AS WELL!! SHE MUST STAY AT HOME WITH THE CHILDREN!! SHE IS A MEMBER OF THE WEAKER SEX!! ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH THIS MUST BE EXTERMINATED!!

That totally changes my perspective of what happened to Lisa in PTTSC.

[taksraven]

Just so you guys know - the coloring book is probably itself a rip off.

Yesterday, while rummaging for something to read, I found an old Voltron coloring book. It has the same "fill in the letter and discover the character's name" format.

So - either HG licensed this to one company that also had the license from others and just had a set pattern... or the Robotech coloring book is a rip off of the Voltron coloring book

I'll post some scans later today

At least it's something to pass the time...

Pete

Look, the best colouring book of all time is the one for 101 Dalmatians. Its full of pictures of just the puppies. Lots of B&W puppies with nothing to colour. I grabbed a copy but can't find it.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

The fact that Misa still took the Captains seat of the Megaroad says all you need to know. She was commited to doing it regardless, and Hikaru was committed to going with her. Being a mother doesn't equate to dropping everything and staying home. Misa being teh capable person she is would be quite capable of spending work time on the bridge, and home time with the baby, but you'd better believe she'd hold up her Captains responsibilities.

Well to be fair, all we saw in SDFM TV was all we saw. For all we know, five months later, Hikaru might have met a bodacious babe on the Megaroad 1, or Misa might have met a guy - and they would have split up. It's all conjecture - and it's very hard to accurately predict how either of them would react depending on the circumstances.

But in general, being a mother of a new born infant does equate to dropping everything and staying at home - unless one hires or has a nurse. Concievably, just as in Mobile Suit Gundam, there might be a seperate ward that takes care of small babies so that mothers can continue their work.

But my hunch about Misa- based on her interaction with Millia's baby and based on her character - is that she would WANT to stay at home - at least for a while - for the first year or two.

On the other hand - maybe it wouldn't be neceesary and our entire little "debate" is totally irrelevent.

For that matter we know nothing about technology and customs on the Macross or Megaroad 1 as they pertain to babies.

And no - we can't extrapolate based on Millia's treatment of her baby, because being half-zentran, that baby developed at a far quicker pace and required less care than a purely human infant.

But since there are little robots selling cola on the street or trying to take your picture or bring you a telephone, then presuming that the Megaroad-1 has not made the technological leap forward to cellular phones that Macross Frontier had, then I assume that the Megaroad one might concievably have robot nannies for children (but no cell phones...?).

I dunno. It's all speculation.

Who knows how their lives turned out.

We can't even say for certain that they got married or stayed together or anything like that. Yes, in the end Hikaru and Misa are together - but that's at a certain moment in time.

Four years later could be a vastly different situation.

Never know.

Pete

Edited November 19, 2009 by VFTF1

[Beltane70]

Ah, but we do know that Hikaru and Misa got married and had a child. It's in the timeline.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/2012

and

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/2013

[VFTF1]

I guess I didn't know that. I hope that wedding picture is from Flashback 2012 or something?

Pete

[Keith]

I guess I didn't know that. I hope that wedding picture is from Flashback 2012 or something?

Pete

Considering Misa was a colony ship captain during peace time, I don't think jugglying work & home would have been all too difficult. And since we do know that as of 2014 or so she was still captaining the Megaroad, that means I'm right and you're not, so there!

[Jasonc]

Hmmm, as I'm not too much in the know about timeline around that time, I suspect Hikaru ended up being mr. mom for awhile. At some point he probably got pissed at the fact that he was playing the subservient role, and decided to re-aquaint himself with his old love Minmay. He ends up having an affair and Hikaru knocks Minmay up and they have a love child Named Basara. Who knows, I'm taking a shot in the dark based on that one M7 episode where the tabloid makes all those funny speculations.

At least they didn't turn Minmay into a complete gardening tool like RT novels did.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Jasonc

[Keith]

Nah, the fear of Misa would be too great for Hikaru to ever cheat on her. He knows damn well she'd throw him out an airlock.

[VFTF1]

Hmmm, as I'm not too much in the know about timeline around that time, I suspect Hikaru ended up being mr. mom for awhile. At some point he probably got pissed at the fact that he was playing the subservient role, and decided to re-aquaint himself with his old love Minmay. He ends up having an affair and Hikaru knocks Minmay up and they have a love child Named Basara. Who knows, I'm taking a shot in the dark based on that one M7 episode where the tabloid makes all those funny speculations.

Actually, this sounds pretty cool And it would make sense because it wasn't just the tabloid, but in the episode where they did the movie re-enactment of DYRL, I think it was also mentioned that Bassara being both a great singer and great pilot, must therefore be the son of Minmey and Hikaru.

So...if Keith is right, then Bassara is Hikaru's son

I could live with that...

Although... didn't Gubaba once destroy my hopes in this regard by pointing out that the timing would be impossible for that?

I dunno either

In any event, in the end, nobody knows who's right or wrong about the details of something none of us have seen, that was never made it's fun to speculate however.

Pete

[Keith]

Basara, much like Superman, was actually a child sealed away in a capsule and sent into hibernation by his Protoculture parents hundreds of thousands of years ago, as their civilization lay dying. He was discovered on that back woods planet, and taken into an orphanage, raised until Ray came across him singing to a mountain. So as you see, it's impossible for him to be the child of HIkaru & Minmay.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Keith

[VFTF1]

That is actually a very good point.

But that would leave only one candidate for Minmey and Hikaru's child:

Honey

Pete

[MastaEgg]

Did the UN ever come clean with what happened to that ship? Because if the tabloid was supposed to be convincing it meant people still believed the Megaroad 01 was out there, but in Frontier Bilrer's looking for Minmay.

[Funkenstein]

Presumably, after the UN folded and the new UN formed, most information about Megaroad 01 was lost. Of course, that assumes that the UN and New UN aren't simultaneously active.

[azrael]

Presumably, after the UN folded and the new UN formed, most information about Megaroad 01 was lost. Of course, that assumes that the UN and New UN aren't simultaneously active.

It shouldn't be active. It should all be under the New UN banner. But that's not to say that the New UN isn't keeping the same MO that the UN maintained. They kept the Bird Human incident under wraps for that long. Why not keep Megaroad-01's whereabouts under wraps as well? But this topic is for another thread in another section. So we'll leave it there.

As for RT, well, if you tell RT fans Rick, Lisa and Minmay fell into a black hole somewhere or tell them "God knows", they'll probably try and stone you to death.