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Robotech and HG License Debates


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True, but didn't they state something along the lines of "We are not the same HG management as before and we would cooperate with bringing Macross to the west, but BW isn't playing ball"?

This doesn't look like an action a company would take that is acting in good faith isn't it?

Yeah, they've said a few times that they were perfectly willing to bring Macross to the world, and that the problem was Big West not wanting to deal with them.

It doesn't look like the actions of a company acting in good faith at all... it looks more like the actions of a company that wants to keep a stranglehold on a potential competitor and continue profiting from someone else's work.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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To be fair, if there was some money to be made you would think Big West would negotiate. Although we have seen the depth of stubbornness from Japanese companies and creators regarding rights issues. Just look at Matsumoto and Nishizaki's battle over Space Battleship Yamato. Also the state of the American (and the world's) industry is not terribly encouraging One of things that separated the American industry from the Japanese one is that the American industry was born out of selling the shows themselves rather than the merchandise. If you listen to Matt Greenfield's commentary on the Megazone 23 Part 1 DVD he says they really got their start selling OVAs since they were easy to get and generally consisted of a handful of episodes at most. Which is why when they started putting out TV shows the episode count per tape or disc was really low. The explosion of TV show on DVD totally rocked the Anime Industry on both sides of the pond as now people were less willing to pay 20 bucks for four episodes when they can get an entire season of MASH for that much. Likewise digital distribution is making TV broadcasts more and more irrelevant.

How does this all relate to Robotech? Well think of how many times ADV released the show. What was it like three or four counting weird poo like those single episode mini-DVDs? So you've got a long show being re-released constantly in multiple editions which not only takes up space and sours fans who bought the first versions, but also it confuses newcomers (especially that guy on Conan O'Brien with his recliner of rage). It's an old show so you're not getting a lot of new fans. And what of the merch? Robotech gets through by having the market share because the Macross stuff is import only. However, the advent of online shopping and wholesale international shipping is a fairly substantial impact on this market. For example when I was at Anime Boston the dealers room was stuff with Gundam kits in a time where Gundam has disappeared from the local Toys R Us's. Sure there were a few Robotech Masterpiece toys but there were few and far between compared to the number of Bandai VF-25 kits, Macross toys, Frontier toys, and other things. The sheer breadth of Macross merchandise is huge and word is getting around. Sure the average consumer usually doesn't import but anime is not for the average consumer. The way I've come to understand it from listening to journalists and insiders like Daryl Surat and Neil Nadelman, doing well enough in the industry means selling like a tenth the DVDs that Dragon Ball Z sells. The gaps between the first bestseller and the second bestseller tends to be pretty large and the same titles hold the top constantly. It's the gap between the average consumer and the fans. So if selling the show really doesn't matter, what of the Robotech merchandise? The Mospeada stuff is all priced too high and their Macross stuff is pretty poor especially when compared to Bandai and Yamato. And we've discussed the poor prospects of Palladium games. Granted most of this rant is just "gut feeling," but when I look at Big West's perspective I figure they are getting paid for all the junk that gets made of Macross no matter where it is sent in the world and even without having direct access to foreign markets Macross continues to make its presence known without Robotech.

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(especially that guy on Conan O'Brien with his recliner of rage).

Is there a clip of this? I knew David Letter used Robotech music, but now Conan O'Brein is getting in the Robotech act as well?

You have good points about the state of the Anime industry in the US. I don't think that TV broadcasts are exactly becoming more and more irrelevant. I think the widespread popularity of shows like DBZ and Naruto with ordinary consumers and fans is owed entirely to Cartoon Network's broadcasts. Anime shows can be popular with the average American consumer, but only after they see it somehow. Audiences become aware of the show through TV then they search the internet for ways of watching the shows when it is convenient to them. Honestly, if Macross Frontier was dubbed, edited, and shown weekdays by Cartoon Network (not Adult Swim) I bet that within a few weeks most of the Naru-tards would be trading in there ninja headbands for SMS jackets in between watching crappy Youtube videos of Macross Frontier set to Linkin Park.

Come to think of it after the Robotech LAM is advertised for theators would probably be the best time to market Macross as the "Original Robotech" to the American "Anime" fans who realize they have been missing out when they are shown the original source material unedited and uncut.

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HG is in a very different situation compared to the rest of the anime industry. Besides insisting to cut a deal with only one specific brand of anime, they're also expected to continue or at least revive a long standing franchise with unusual roots. Unfortunately, if they ever want to go backwards, legal issues and personal preferences bars them from using material from 2/3 of the franchise; Macross because it's become another franchise and Southern Cross because, at least to them, it doesn't sell. Also, without the facilities to continue it themselves, yet insisting to emulate the style of the original series, they want to rely on animation companies in Asia to do the work. With at least one studio unwilling to work for them, they're forced to find cheap alternatives for every future production. All of this and a lack of imagination by whoever helms it, because all previous work were mostly derivatives of other stuff, leaves them in a situation where they have to spend more money than other companies and work harder to get anywhere with it. At the moment, however, they found an even better alternative to rely on: Hollywood. Surely the pool of talent there will help solve all their problems, leaving them free to do... what exactly?

You would think that by extending the Robotech trademark that it gives a clear message that HG is really working on stuff like Shadow Rising and the LAMR. I'd believe it more when sources besides rt.com actually has reports about them. At least it gives them 10 years to work on it, which I guess is a typical production timetable for them. Until then more cheaply made, legally acceptable, expensive Robotech derivative merchandise for everyone.

Edited by Einherjar
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Sweet, I'm still public enemy #1 on robotech fan lists almost 10 years later. Truly I am an uber Macross fan :)

I keep waiting for one of these people to explain why three random anime series that have nothing to do with eachother, strung together loosely into a series is better than the first of the three anime series in the original as well as all of its' subsequent original sequals.

Somehow -that never happens.

On the other hand, there are hundreds of pages of analysis of the various Macross sagas on this website which demonstrate how interesting Macross is.

I think the "people have a right to different opinions" line in this guys' essay is a cover for "I have a right to cling to my opinion without providing any arguments to back it up, without giving any coherent reasons. I can believe that blue is green if I want to."

And yes - yes you can believe that blue is green if you want to. That is your right. But that is also boring and kind of pointless.

Also - one last point:

Can he at least LINK to some of the posts that the people he singles out and calls names actually wrote something that could qualify as offensive, out of line etc etc?

Usually, when making an accusation, people don't just randomly fling about accusations but they point to specific posts, they give specific quotes.

And finally - the thing about us being jealous of Robotech, and Macross being "related" to Robotech is just laughable.

Macross is "related" to Robotech??? :)

How can the basis of Robotech - the thing which is the foundation of Robotech - be "related" to Robotech?

That makes it sound like Robotech was thought up and created first, and then the Japanese made this thing called Macross which just happened to also have an SDF-1 and some triple changing airplanes and this singing girl in it - it's related you see...

I sometimes feel as if Robotech.com is the Flat Earth Society and Macrossworld is the Round Earth Society. Both of us believe that our vision of the Earth is the TRUE vision. The FLat Earth Society is tolerant enough to allow that those crazy people over at the Round Earth Society have a right to their "opinion" and that, in some sense, the theory about the Earth being round is "Related" to the theory that the Earth is Flat.

But they seem not to understand that while yes - they can believe in nonesense - there is still a difference between fact and opinion.

And the fact is Macross came first.

Now - IF someone could please demonstrate to me that Macross sucks, but the American dubs and the American re-formation of it into Robotech made a sucky anime GREAT - then I will concede the point; I will admit that Robotech has merit on its' own.

But so far - I haven't seen it. All I've seen is a really bad dub of Macross in the form of Robotech "The Macross Saga" and then the random introduction of a completely different anime (Mospedia) and the culmination in a movie with out-dated mecha, bad singing (which - in all fairness - was necessary t make it compatable with the original Robotech series), boring animation and piss poor plot....

Pete

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HG is in a very different situation compared to the rest of the anime industry.

Well unlike what some of the crazy fans say, Robotech is still anime and is marketed as such. If anything there really is no more market for space opera cartoons that aren't anime.

Edited by VF5SS
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Now - IF someone could please demonstrate to me that Macross sucks, but the American dubs and the American re-formation of it into Robotech made a sucky anime GREAT - then I will concede the point; I will admit that Robotech has merit on its' own.

So, if HG were to dub Macross 7 and make it somehow watchable, then we could all get along?

(j/k, I know some people here like it, though for me 7 really is unwatchable and I can't fathom how it lasted so many episodes while other anime series have gotten cancelled so early, but that's just my personal taste)

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Sweet, I'm still public enemy #1 on robotech fan lists almost 10 years later. Truly I am an uber Macross fan :)

To be fair, the place hasn't been updated in 5 years. The owner of that space may not even care about that site anymore. If he does...ummmm :unsure:

...All of this and a lack of imagination by whoever helms it, because all previous work were mostly derivatives of other stuff, leaves them in a situation where they have to spend more money than other companies and work harder to get anywhere with it. At the moment, however, they found an even better alternative to rely on: Hollywood. Surely the pool of talent there will help solve all their problems, leaving them free to do... what exactly?

Actually, it would be the studio in charge of production (which would be Maguire Entertainment and WB) who would be spending money in the case of a LAM. HG just sits back and rakes in the licensing revenue. HG's role is to say, "We approve this course of action." In the RT-LAM, HG is the owner and licensor of the RT copyright. WB and Maguire Entertainment are the licensee. It would fall on the studio in-charge of production to either work out a deal for designs or come up with new ones. New designs, in the end, would be probably be cheaper for the studio in-charge and cause less of a legal headache since they can design those themselves and copyright those designs.

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It would be poetic justice if Warner changes the name Robotech in to something more contemporary for the LAM, trademarks it, and leaves HG with nothing.

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Yeah, they've said a few times that they were perfectly willing to bring Macross to the world, and that the problem was Big West not wanting to deal with them.

It doesn't look like the actions of a company acting in good faith at all... it looks more like the actions of a company that wants to keep a stranglehold on a potential competitor and continue profiting from someone else's work.

No, that's perrfectly consistent.

They're willing to BRING Macross to the world. The problem is Big West doesn't want to deal WITH THEM.

They've never said they're willing to watch someone else bring Macross to the world while they get nothing.

Because they own the copyright, don'cha know?

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Actually, it would be the studio in charge of production (which would be Maguire Entertainment and WB) who would be spending money in the case of a LAM. HG just sits back and rakes in the licensing revenue. HG's role is to say, "We approve this course of action."

Oh, so they would end up doing what's happening with them right now, except for an undetermined extended period of time. I sure walked right into that one. :lol:

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At the moment, however, they found an even better alternative to rely on: Hollywood. Surely the pool of talent there will help solve all their problems, leaving them free to do... what exactly?

I dunno reboot the franchise as Battle Star Galactic meets Transformers and dumped down for the American audience that is unaware of the definition of the prefix Proto. It will be remotely like that classic anime that was a cross between Space Ship Yamato and Mobile Suit Gundam, only with a really crappy story, cardboard charaters, and pretty Computer generated effects. Toss in a lesbian love triangle between a Starbuck rip-off, a Dominant female captain, and an asian Hanna Montana though and the LAM will become an instant box office hit and Oscar nominee. :lol:

It would be poetic justice if Warner changes the name Robotech in to something more contemporary for the LAM, trademarks it, and leaves HG with nothing.

Only one word in the english dictionary could describe how I would feel if that happened:

So, if HG were to dub Macross 7 and make it somehow watchable, then we could all get along?

Power to the Dub!

Power to the Dub Lovers

Power to the Money

I want new Fans

Power to the Fanfic universe!

Power to Protoculture's mystery

I don't wanna to share our power

The trademark I finally grasped

slips through my fingers

I'll hunt you down all the way

to the other side of a Neutron S black hole...

...(Basera Hunter breaks a few strings on his guitar and his flaming red VF-19 spins out of control and crashes in flames)

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The way I've come to understand it from listening to journalists and insiders like Daryl Surat and Neil Nadelman, doing well enough in the industry means selling like a tenth the DVDs that Dragon Ball Z sells.

No wonder Tommy Yune and the co. (Harmony Gold) were so proud. :huh:

Sure there were a few Robotech Masterpiece toys but there were few and far between compared to the number of Bandai VF-25 kits, Macross toys, Frontier toys, and other things. The sheer breadth of Macross merchandise is huge and word is getting around.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head there. Many times, the only Robotech merchandise I see in my local conventions is the "chibi" Alpha Fighters, and the recently-recalled Shadow Fighter toy. And occasionally overpriced Cyclone toys (they come with those limited edition cel-thingies!).

They're willing to BRING Macross to the world. The problem is Big West doesn't want to deal WITH THEM.

Was there a moment in the past when Big West tried to make peace with Tatsunoko/Harmony Gold? Did Carl Macek ever try to broker a peace between the two parties? Because now, it's clear people like McKeever, Yune and their crack legal team aren't.

With at least one studio unwilling to work for them, they're forced to find cheap alternatives for every future production.

Warner Brothers is at the helm right? Didn't those come out with the Animatrix and Gotham Knight? That means, the next Robotech LAM tie-in won't be run by a second-rate Korean company... Studio 4c is gonna do it!!!

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Warner Brothers is at the helm right? Didn't those come out with the Animatrix and Gotham Knight? That means, the next Robotech LAM tie-in won't be run by a second-rate Korean company... Studio 4c is gonna do it!!!

I think WB helped commission those because previous works for both showed that the franchises were profitable enough to consider them. Plus, the Matrix was already inspired by anime works while Batman had the successful animated series in addition to Begins. In Hollywood's eyes at least Robotech hasn't proven itself to consider spin off material like that yet since the LAMR is still in some stage of pre-production. Still, it might be an option if turning it into a 3D or animated work makes it easier or cheaper to produce.

EDIT: Actually, Robotech 3000, The Untold Story, and Shadow Chronicles could be used as examples for Hollywood to take into consideration.

Edited by Einherjar
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Warner Brothers is at the helm right? Didn't those come out with the Animatrix and Gotham Knight? That means, the next Robotech LAM tie-in won't be run by a second-rate Korean company... Studio 4c is gonna do it!!!

Personally I would rather see a reimagined Robotech series produced by Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski from Warner Bros animation then a single movie spin-off of 6 5-min short stories done by Studio 4c, Production I.G., and Madhouse. If the Robotech LAM is a success I wouldn't be surprised if it led to animated spin-off material considering Robotech's anime origins.

Well unlike what some of the crazy fans say, Robotech is still anime and is marketed as such. If anything there really is no more market for space opera cartoons that aren't anime.

I honestly can't think of any Space Opera cartoons that were made in the West except the animated Star Trek series. I find it sad that most Western cartoon studios don't even attempt to make any serious cartoon shows anymore except for Avatar: The Last Airbender.

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I honestly can't think of any Space Opera cartoons that were made in the West except the animated Star Trek series. I find it sad that most Western cartoon studios don't even attempt to make any serious cartoon shows anymore except for Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Sure there are some; Exosquad, Heavy Gear, Battletech, Invasion America, Red Planet, Wing Commander, etc. Note that these and others were released when nobody was minding the store at Robotech.

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Sure there are some; Exosquad, Heavy Gear, Battletech, Invasion America, Red Planet, Wing Commander, etc. Note that these and others were released when nobody was minding the store at Robotech.

Roughnecks, AKA Starship Troopers done right.

Just to add to the list.

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So, if HG were to dub Macross 7 and make it somehow watchable, then we could all get along?

(j/k, I know some people here like it, though for me 7 really is unwatchable and I can't fathom how it lasted so many episodes while other anime series have gotten cancelled so early, but that's just my personal taste)

I am so going to put up a site about you!!!

Also, ORE NO UTA WO KIIKE!

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Sure there are some; Exosquad, Heavy Gear, Battletech, Invasion America, Red Planet, Wing Commander, etc. Note that these and others were released when nobody was minding the store at Robotech.

My point is that while HG was trying to get their act together, during one of the many upheavals the franchise faced, people on both all sides of the world moved on to over things. Robotech hasn't changed since the 80's except for the cliche darker and sexier sides of Shadow Chronicles.

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Macross is "related" to Robotech??? :)

How can the basis of Robotech - the thing which is the foundation of Robotech - be "related" to Robotech?

That makes it sound like Robotech was thought up and created first, and then the Japanese made this thing called Macross which just happened to also have an SDF-1 and some triple changing airplanes and this singing girl in it - it's related you see...

I've noticed that both names are interchangeable to identify either series by people outside of the ongoing talk about it. I guess even to this day a success in the Macross franchise can be seen as a success for Robotech too because of their identical "roots." It's just being dragged along for the ride because of the Robotech's past and present creator's indecision to associate or distance itself from the original(s).

Edited by Einherjar
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Same wanker, more like. Just read this load of BS that he posted......

http://www.geocities.com/robotechthreethou.../manifesto.html

Lets just hope that Khyron Pieman.....sorry Prime never learns how to pick up a gun......

Taksraven

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Sure there are some; Exosquad, Heavy Gear, Battletech, Invasion America, Red Planet, Wing Commander, etc. Note that these and others were released when nobody was minding the store at Robotech.

After looking through the interwebs I remembered seeing episodes of Wing Commander and Battle Planets way back, but I don't remember seeing several of the others. What disappoints me isn't the lack of Cartoon Space Opera, but the fact that they don't make cartoons like they used to do.

My point is that while HG was trying to get their act together, during one of the many upheavals the franchise faced, people on both all sides of the world moved on to over things. Robotech hasn't changed since the 80's except for the cliche darker and sexier sides of Shadow Chronicles.

I can see why the darker Space Opera were dropped in favor of other lighter shows. Here in america anything that is animated is seen as light or childish. Back in 1999 a comic book shop employee was charged with selling a hentai comic to an undercover cop in Texas. Despite the fact that all the mature and pornographic comics were sold in a backroom where no one could enter without showing a valid ID proofing they weren't under 21 could enter, the employee was proscuted on the arguement that since the porno comic was "cartoonish it was made and marketed for kids."

Also, ORE NO UTA WO KIIKE!

Of course. That's what was missing. I had a feeling the "Power to the Dream" Harmony Gold Dub was missing something.

Translation: All the robots are black and the women dress like deviantart rejects.

Too true, fortunately the real deviantart artists out there have realized that as well.

TSC_Ariel_looking_cute_by_HappyPenguins.jpg

"I was unhappy with the new version of ariel in the shadow chronicles so I drew her the way I think she should look.

notice how her chest isnt bigger than her head" ~HappyPenguins

http://happypenguins.deviantart.com/art/Sh...attire-49884109

http://happypenguins.deviantart.com/art/TS...g-cute-54819066

Lets just hope that Khyron Pieman.....sorry Prime never learns how to pick up a gun......

Yeah, cause its so easy to just shoot bullets at people though an internet connection. I blast people with cannonballs through the piratebay all the time.

Guns are expensive and overrated anyways. Just take me to a decent hardware store, give me a $100 or so, and I will make you a flamethrower.

Edited by Freiflug88
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Yeah, let's all be scared of the internet tough guy.

Says the internet tough guy...... :p

Taksraven

Edited by taksraven
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...the fact that they don't make cartoons like they used to do.

Robotech, without Macross designs, isn't what it used to be too... *sniff*

550preview5.jpg

Sorry if a bit off-topic, but Macross Frontier's designs seem surprisingly fresh, modern and surprisingly... sexier, compared to Robotech: Shadow Chronicles.

Designs.jpg

Edited by chrisk
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Robotech, without Macross designs, isn't what it used to be too... *sniff*

550preview5.jpg

Sorry if a bit off-topic, but Macross Frontier's designs seem surprisingly fresh, modern and surprisingly... sexier, compared to Robotech: Shadow Chronicles.

Designs.jpg

Untitled-2.jpgUntitled-1.jpg

I can spot some similarities....

Taksraven

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What disappoints me isn't the lack of Cartoon Space Opera, but the fact that they don't make cartoons like they used to do.

Eh. Most of those shows cited other than Exosquad were pretty mediocre. They all suffered from terrible animation and "you can't kill anyone" syndrome. The villains were super hammy. For example the Clan Jade Falcon guys in the Battletech cartoon had tattoos that glowed when they sneered to make them look extra evil. Heavy Gear couldn't even be about war like all the Votoms stuff it was clearly based on so they just made it about some arena fighting. Invasion America was actually shown in prime time as a miniseries of "more mature animation" but it kind of fizzled out. The funny thing was how the Japanese phrase "Yosh!" became the alien's way of saying "alright." In retrospect it just made the main character (and the writers) look like huge weeaboos.

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Untitled-2.jpgUntitled-1.jpg

I can spot some similarities....

I am gonna have to say that this is one area where Shadow Rising triumphs Macross Frontier in my honest opinion cause I would dig Maia's ass over Sheryl's any day. Seriously Marcus has it made compared to Alto: no princess idol syndrome to deal with, no tangling in a love triangle, Maia can actually pilot and she doesn't look like an anorexic fashion model, and she tested negative for Vajira AIDs :lol:

Eh. Most of those shows cited other than Exosquad were pretty mediocre. They all suffered from terrible animation and "you can't kill anyone" syndrome. The villains were super hammy. For example the Clan Jade Falcon guys in the Battletech cartoon had tattoos that glowed when they sneered to make them look extra evil. Heavy Gear couldn't even be about war like all the Votoms stuff it was clearly based on so they just made it about some arena fighting. Invasion America was actually shown in prime time as a miniseries of "more mature animation" but it kind of fizzled out. The funny thing was how the Japanese phrase "Yosh!" became the alien's way of saying "alright." In retrospect it just made the main character (and the writers) look like huge weeaboos.

I meant it more as a general statement about the cartoon industry here in America.

I only watched a few minutes on youtube on several of those shows, but I did notice the glowing tattoos and the flat characters in Battletech when I wasn't laughing at the CG battlescenes lifted from Mechwarrior. The thing that stuck out to me about Invasion America was the first 3 mins with the CSI moment of the alien remains and how the main character is a carbon copy of Terry from Batman Beyond.

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Robotech, without Macross designs, isn't what it used to be too... *sniff*

Without Macross designs, Robotech probably never would've made it in the first place, and those same Macross designs are pretty much all that kept the franchise afloat for the twenty years between the failure of Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Hell, the only thing keeping Robotech afloat now is the promise of finding out what became of the few remaining Macross characters.

Sorry if a bit off-topic, but Macross Frontier's designs seem surprisingly fresh, modern and surprisingly... sexier, compared to Robotech: Shadow Chronicles.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "sexier" than RTSC's. It's true Sheryl does have a bit of sex appeal, but it's not her defining characteristic like it is for Maia Sterling, Janice M2, and Ariel/Marlene. The character designs are a lot closer to real human forms too... rather than the Barbie-doll-like women and superhero-esque men of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

Oh yeah, I forgot they released an art book for Shadow Chronicles. How did that turn out?

Badly. I bought a copy (used) at a garage sale for $1.00 just a few days ago. It's easily the worst anime artbook I've ever laid eyes on. I actually feel like I overpaid.

The book was written in large measure by fans (Vincent McHenry, Jon Switzer, and Pieter Thomassen), though the cover bears only Tommy Yune's name, and the announcement that the foreword was written by Carl Macek. The content of the foreword is basically a history of the Robotech franchise as viewed through rose-colored glasses. Parts of it read more like a love letter from Carl Macek to himself. That agonizing bullshit goes on for a full TWENTY pages, complete with reprints of Tommy's various posters and screen captures. They piss away about 12 pages on settings and locations, most of which is wasted on corridor cross-sections, room layouts, and for some stupid reason... VENDING MACHINES. 26 pages are devoted to character art, which pretty much consists of a one-paragraph blurb about each character, an early sketch, a mid-development sketch that looks like something out of 90's DC Comics, and the completed design. 21 pages are devoted to the mecha designs, which are also one brief paragraph, plus some Mospeada lineart, one or two images of the completed design (movie screencaps) and occasionally a mid-development view. No multiple angles, nothing even remotely useful. Even if they are multiple pictures of the same mecha it's always from the same angle. 20 pages are devoted to ships, pretty much the same damn thing as the mecha pages, a waste of time. At the very end, there's a 10 page article on actually MAKING the damn movie, and then a brief two-page glossary of terms, a brief mecha stats section made mostly of reprinted Infopedia data, and a two-page Index.

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