Toynami:

[gingaio]

See, you backtracked. technically yes, and strongly implied are not the same thing, which was what I joking on you about.

And your example doesn't work. Saying one is a cake eater does not imply or denote exclusivity, therefore, anyone who eats cake or has eaten cake can be fairly described as a "cake eater" where-as, a murderer denotes someone who has murdered and not someone who CAN murder, which denotes ability. It's like the square rectangle arguement. All squares are rectangles but not every rectangle is a square.

My last post on this thread, mods, I swear. And apologies for the inconvenience.

Actually, I haven't really backtracked...I'm quite sure of what I've been saying. And I know exactly what you're goofing on me about. The "at the very least" phrase implies an "or." In other words, "This is what it means. [Or] at the very least..."

So again, how did I equate "technically, yes" and "strongly implied" if I used an [implied] "or"? Then again, I sort of said the exact same thing in my last post.

And actually, the main thrust of your argument isn't necessarily exclusivity, but about what is or can be. In other words, the mode of the phrasing (e.g., present, subjunctive, etc.)

jenius's hypothetical example was: "He can murder, rape, and pillage all he wants." Your argument would work if the sentence were "He can murder if he wants." That's where your "potentiality" thing would kick in. But the "all he wants" makes the sentence more ambigious because of the declarative, present, active mode of the phrase, which suggests not only an action that could occur, but possibly one that has already been occurring.

For example, if you said, "Joe can eat cake all he wants," wouldn't you assume that Joe has already eaten cake at least once? Why would he want to eat all this cake if he's had no experience with the food?

As opposed to saying, "Joe can eat cake if he wants." It's a subtle distinction, but it's there.

Anyway, as with all board debates, you're probably not going to see my point, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited March 14, 2008 by gingaio

[jenius]

Wow guys, now we're arguing the comments of my PM, which was meant to take the argument out of this thread entirely. Uh, stop. Gingaio, the point was "I don't care what this guy does, may do, or is capable of, I buy toys." I suppose my word choice wasn't PERFECT but it was not meant to be an indictment of George Sohn on every thing i listed he *could* be guilty of that I would not care about. If anyone had a problem with how it was meant to be taken I would think the fact I even retracted on the lightest accusation and backed down from calling him a blatant liar and instead called him "habitually wrong" should clear that air.

Well if Toynami did the same thing they did with the VF-1 series then chances are they didn't make all 15K of the Scott Alpha and may be able to re-release them. 15K was just the top number that they would make it didn't mean they made them all at once. I'm betting Toynami has cash flow problems so they probably don't want to tie up all their resources in 15K Alphas. IIRC, Toynami didn't make all 15k of the Roy VF-1S at once either. When they re-issued the Roy MPC, they didn't make more than the 15K limit....they just finished out the 15k run.

I think there's a problem with this logic and that problem is Aoshima. it appears the molds were changed and the design improved. Would Toynami go back to making an Alpha MPC the old way now?

[vermillion01]

OMFG!! this thread now = F A I L!

please stop!

[Fort Max]

How many other people actually prefer the Toynami design to the CM's one?

I'm very surprised to have reached this realizaition but I'm just not that bothered about CM's set and haven't been for a while and yet yesterday I pre-ordered Toynami's Beta without hesitation.

I think both have their strong points, CM's does have excellent looking missle bays but the landing gear and the plain nasty connecting bar spoil it. Toynami's design seems to have improved greatly, most noticeably now hiding the cockpit in robot mode and though we havn't seen any gimmciks yet their Alpha had all the hatches and whatnot so I don't see much reaosn to think this will be any different.

There's also the asthetic to consider, CM's went with a more modern looking style whileToynami has actually created a more anime accurate look.I wouldn't be bothered if neither one was perfectly accurate but I do like the look of Toynami's more, it just looks more 80's and wins points for that alone.

That said I wish they were more forthcoming with information, delays people can handle but keeping your customers in the dark is a bad idea for pretty much any buisness.

[Jasonc]

I just got an email from TMA basically saying that they are cancelling all preorders because Toynami has told them that the price will be somewhere between $150-$200. They also said that until a price is confirmed, they will not put the price up. So, now that it's settled, I hope there are people in here that can act civil about all this info, and not comment on the issue anymore. Basically, the retailer is saying they don't even know, and aren't going to speculate either. So, my suggestion would be to drop it. Acting like an A-hole on the forums doesn't show you have an I.Q., just a lack of one.

Now, with that said, I'm kinda torn between the CMs version, and the Toynami. I like the functionality of the missil bays on the CMs, as well as some of the curvy renditions, but I like the solid look and color of the Toynami. Also, the CMs version looks not to be in scale with the Legioss, as the cockpit of the Tread is much smaller than the Legioss. Toynami's seems a little more in scale, but for some reason, doesn't look too line accurate. Definitely anime magic on that mecha being utilized. Since I still have a good number of Alphas left in my collection, I will try to get 2 each of all the Toynami, and if someone can please tell me...

WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THE CMS LEGIOSS AND TREAD? Is it similar to Toynami's? Bigger? Smaller? I think that will determine if I buy one or not.

[jenius]

WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THE CMS LEGIOSS AND TREAD? Is it similar to Toynami's? Bigger? Smaller? I think that will determine if I buy one or not.

Saverobotech said it was slightly smaller than the Toynami (the Legioss that is). If they're billing it as 1/48 it should be the same size or slightly larger but as you've already noticed, the CMs seems to be quite wonky when it comes to scale... We'll know for sure in a few weeks though since the CMs is due to hit the streets at the end of this month if I'm not mistaken.

[danth]

Jenius, do you know if the Beta will be released in Japan through Aoshima? Sorry if the question has been addressed already.

If the Beta does turn out to be between $150 and $200, I predict that I will still get a Beta for about $100 after the 25 or so crazy enough people pay the retail price and they toy goes on clearance. Then again, I'm probably underestimating the number of crazy people out there. What do you guys think: Will retailers have to slash prices to sell the Beta?

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Just got this from Tam:

Dear Fellow Robotech Fan,

Thank you for your recent order for the Robotech Masterpiece Collection

Beta. We are writing with some bad news about the price of these

figures. We just heard from Toynami today and they have informed us

that

the price that they had printed in their catalogs was INCORRECT for

these figures and that the correct price range will be $150-$200 per

beta. They claim that they have still not finalized the price and that

the price they had originally listed on their catalogs was simply

incorrect. Suffice it to say that we are very upset about this, but

unfortunately there is no way that we can offer them at the $79.99

price

that was listed on our site. Due to this reason, all current orders for

these will be canceled and they will be re-listed on our site as soon

as

we have confirmation of the correct price. We greatly apologize for any

inconvenience this may have caused and are just upset about it as I'm

sure you might be, but sadly it's a situation that is completely out of

our control.

Best Regards,

Tamim

Un F*cking believable. Nevermind, I'll get mine when prices drop.

[Fort Max]

Ah well, it did have this massive feeling of too good to be true about it.

[jenius]

Un F*cking believable. Nevermind, I'll get mine when prices drop.

The good news is, I got one of every Alpha very shortly after release at a typical savings of about 30% or more. I remember I bought the Shadow Fighters for $55 shipped on each and I think it was maybe six weeks after release... not bad for something that would have been $90 shipped preordered just about anywhere. The other good news is that something that expensive ought to be packed with features... time will tell.

Jenius, do you know if the Beta will be released in Japan through Aoshima? Sorry if the question has been addressed already.

Roger says "No." George Sohn said "yes" up until the NY Toy Fair but Roger says that while at Toy Fair George admitted that he was wrong again and Aoshima would no longer be releasing the Beta as a Tread in Japan. Personally, I find that whole debacle retarded and think it's a win-win situation if Aoshima just orders like a couple thousand of each Tread variant (sans Shadow since they didn't release the Dark Legioss). Have those made at the same time as the Toynami version and boom, easy money for everyone.

[EXO]

oh wow... $150... I'm so glad Toynami is here to provide us toys with domestic prices. I'm not paying that much for anything toynami. If they had a good history with their toys then I would pay more than that. But the string of POS that they put out plus this price makes me laugh. Hell freakin no!

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

I'm curious to see just how many people out there will stick to their preorders after this. From this thread it seemed to me that most people were jumping at preorders only because of the 80 price tag (I did).

Edited March 15, 2008 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[hutch]

I'm sticking with mine.

[Jasonc]

I jumped on the preorder because of the price. It's not like I won't get one, but I'm definitely gonna wait if it's more than $150. If it's anymore, I have no problem in boycotting these damn things, since they are trying to charge import prices for these. I can wait on these since I've already waited years.

My preorder at BBTS hasn't changed, nor have I received any notice from them as of yet, so I'm sure they'll follow suit. In that, time will tell the next action.

[Alpha OTS]

We are writing with some bad news about the price of these

figures. We just heard from Toynami today and they have informed us

that the price that they had printed in their catalogs was INCORRECT for

these figures and that the correct price range will be $150-$200 per

beta. They claim that they have still not finalized the price and that

the price they had originally listed on their catalogs was simply

incorrect.

Heh, so Toynami was the source of the $80 price tag, eh? Imagine that.

I'll still buy one at the higher price, although not as enthusiastically. It'd probably be smarter to wait for the inevitable price drop, just like the Alphas.

[baronv]

So it's true that the Toynami Beta will cost a bit. For all the hoo-ha on the price, I think it will sell o.k. though since everyone has been waiting for a Beta for so long. I remember seeing the Tread-Beta protos selling on eBay for over $1k.

TMP lists the CMS combo at $300, is that a confirmed price as well? Seems pretty high to me, breaking it down to $150 for Alpha + Beta combo.

http://www.tmpanime.com/index.php?main_pag...roducts_id=2240

[Fly4victory]

How many other people actually prefer the Toynami design to the CM's one?

I actually prefer the Toynami design.

Do not confuse liking the design with Toynami's quality control, production schedule, advertising...

I prefer the design since the Alpha looks better in fighter and the Beta is larger. Plus the prototype Toynami does not have those strange landing gear.

[Sundown]

last night i shot his momma in the leg... she so fat, gravy poured out!

Mexico is filled with gravy?

Nice!

[Kyp Durron]

I actually prefer the Toynami design.

Do not confuse liking the design with Toynami's quality control, production schedule, advertising...

I prefer the design since the Alpha looks better in fighter and the Beta is larger. Plus the prototype Toynami does not have those strange landing gear.

I feel the exact same way. I'm hoping that VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE will have a group buy of the Shadow colored Beta (Assuming it comes out), that way I can get a good price since I already have the Shadow Fighter.

The way I see it, I will be paying less overall than the $300 for CM's version which I don't like anyways.

-Kyp

[Roger]

I just got an email from TMA basically saying that they are cancelling all preorders because Toynami has told them that the price will be somewhere between $150-$200. They also said that until a price is confirmed, they will not put the price up. So, now that it's settled, I hope there are people in here that can act civil about all this info, and not comment on the issue anymore. Basically, the retailer is saying they don't even know, and aren't going to speculate either. So, my suggestion would be to drop it. Acting like an A-hole on the forums doesn't show you have an I.Q., just a lack of one.

Fine with me. I hope Jenius reads that last part and refrains from accusing people of being liars.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Roger

[jenius]

The part about Toynami giving people the wrong price?

[eriku]

TMP lists the CMS combo at $300, is that a confirmed price as well? Seems pretty high to me, breaking it down to $150 for Alpha + Beta combo.

http://www.tmpanime.com/index.php?main_pag...roducts_id=2240

That's on the high end for the CMs set. The lowest I've heard is $220 at that online store SaveRobotech mentioned, Over-Drive Inc. I think the Early Bird price at HLJ when I preordered was around $250, although their regular price is $282.

Edited March 15, 2008 by eriku

[jenius]

That's on the high end for the CMs set. The lowest I've heard is $220 at that online store SaveRobotech mentioned a few posts back. I think the Early Bird price at HLJ when I preordered was around $250, although their regular price is $282.

Yeah but with the weakening dollar and the exclusivity of the green and red there's a good chance some of this might prove quite pricey. Then again, much like we bank on Toynami products getting cheap quick too, there's gotta be a similar phenomenon that happens in Japan with toys released there. Maybe a few months after each release they'll be available at much more reasonable prices... although I find it hard to believe that'd happen to the greeny being a website exclusive.

[EXO]

Fine with me. I hope Jenius reads that last part and refrains from accusing people of being liars.

The part about Toynami giving people the wrong price?

you guys are done... one more peep and it's account freeze land.

[bsu legato]

peep

[vermillion01]

"I'll pistol whip the next person to say shenanigans......."

"Hey farva, whats the name of that bar you like?............"

Edited March 15, 2008 by vermillion01

[eriku]

Yeah but with the weakening dollar and the exclusivity of the green and red there's a good chance some of this might prove quite pricey.

Yeah but what? I wasn't saying the CM's wasn't pricey. I actually wasn't saying anything other than what the current prices are.

[jenius]

LOL, not trying to get into more of a pricing debate. The $280 price, which seems pricey at the moment, may prove to be more the norm with a dollar dropping in value and the green and red ones being harder to get was all I meant to imply. Not that you were wrong in some way.

[Vermillion21]

I'm curious to see just how many people out there will stick to their preorders after this. From this thread it seemed to me that most people were jumping at preorders only because of the 80 price tag (I did).

If BBTS does cancel their pre-order price, I'll likely cancel my pre-order and wait to order the Beta from my regular online retailers. Like you, I only pre-ordered with BBTS because of the price.

[protostar8]

I'm curious to see just how many people out there will stick to their preorders after this. From this thread it seemed to me that most people were jumping at preorders only because of the 80 price tag (I did).

I won't get one for that much. And even if Toynami is saying that it's going to be $150, we may end up seeing $80 b/c the guy said that Toynami doesn't know the price and told businesses in a printed document that it would be $80, now a word of mouth person from Toynami says that's wrong. In reality, even Toynami doesn't know how much it's gonna cost, so until the official price hike, I'll keep my pre-order (and complain to BBTS after that for listing it this early and then hiking the price that much to see what they'll do about it since their policy is "keep the pre-order price" for most items b/c maybe they'll sell them almost at cost to pre-order customers). I will not pay $150 for something I know will have problems right out of the box.

Edited March 15, 2008 by protostar8

[gilermo]

Is this thing finaly comming out or are they going to string us along for 2 more years..

[Shun]

i'd cancel my pre-order if its ridiculously more than $80.

i'm suspecting that they're testing the market response after seeing the recent CMs n megahouse products getting snatched up. =X

[crasis]

If BBTS does cancel their pre-order price, I'll likely cancel my pre-order and wait to order the Beta from my regular online retailers. Like you, I only pre-ordered with BBTS because of the price.

Me too. I refuse to pay more than $80 for a Toynami toy. Period.

[Roger]

From BBTS:

Hi - We have just recently been informed by the president of Toynami that the MSRP of the New Generation Beta Fighters will be somewhere between $149.99 and $199.99. Our original price of $79.99 was incorrect. The confusion on this item was caused by some unclear information on their price sheet. The sheet said the price was 'to be disclosed' at a later date, but there was an asterisk '*' by the item number, and a asterisk '*' note on the bottom of the page stating that all Masterpiece items with the asterisk were to be priced at a $79.99 minimum price. I apologize for this error, it was an honest mistake on my part due to the MSRP they inferred on the price sheet. If you need to cancel or reduce your preorder - that is no problem at all, simply login to your account and update the quantity on order to zero to remove the preorder. When Toynami does officially announce the MSRP, we will sell them at the lowest possible price that they allow - which most likely will be $149.99, but they are still working with factories to nail down the final price. (They do enforce minimum pricing with retailers on this, so the lowest price they allow is the best we can do for you on this item) I again apologize for the error, but on the bright side, with a MSRP, the figure should be that much more amazing.

Thanks!

Joel

www.bigbadtoystore.com

[Jasonc]

About 2 years ago, I had written in a thread (here, or on rt.com) that the Beta toy shouldn't cost more than $150. Reasoning was due to the size, materials, and demand. It was in a remark Tommy Yune had made that if Toynami made this toy, it was going to cost about $200. For a domestic toy company to charge that much is ridiculous first off. However, I did make comparisons to the Voltron toy Toynami had released. Using the complexity of that toy, the amount of die-cast vs. plastic, and number of units sold, it would seem illogical to sell the Beta for that much. The Beta is one piece, not as complex, roughly about the same size, well, you get the idea....

I just now got this from BBTS:

Hi - We have just recently been informed by the president of Toynami that the MSRP of the New Generation Beta Fighters will be somewhere between $149.99 and $199.99. Our original price of $79.99 was incorrect. The confusion on this item was caused by some unclear information on their price sheet. The sheet said the price was 'to be disclosed' at a later date, but there was an asterisk '*' by the item number, and a asterisk '*' note on the bottom of the page stating that all Masterpiece items with the asterisk were to be priced at a $79.99 minimum price. I apologize for this error, it was an honest mistake on my part due to the MSRP they inferred on the price sheet. If you need to cancel or reduce your preorder - that is no problem at all, simply login to your account and update the quantity on order to zero to remove the preorder. When Toynami does officially announce the MSRP, we will sell them at the lowest possible price that they allow - which most likely will be $149.99, but they are still working with factories to nail down the final price. (They do enforce minimum pricing with retailers on this, so the lowest price they allow is the best we can do for you on this item) I again apologize for the error, but on the bright side, with a MSRP, the figure should be that much more amazing.

There you have it, start cancelling your preorders.