Why don't Valks have beam sabres

[Pat Payne]

I've also read that the Russian tanks at Prokhorovka (a part of the battle of Kursk in 1943) resorted to ramming the German panzers when they ran out of ammo or had their guns disabled...but recent research apparently has debunked much of that story. And so another great military story bites the dust...damn.

What about the German RammKommando? German squadrons in WW2 flying heavily-armored and reinforced FW-190s who were supposed to crash into Allied bombers and then (theoretically) fly off to their base? That one's been verified as true.

[Druna Skass]

What about the German RammKommando? German squadrons in WW2 flying heavily-armored and reinforced FW-190s who were supposed to crash into Allied bombers and then (theoretically) fly off to their base? That one's been verified as true.

The Russians did that too. Some pilots would use the props on their planes to chop up German bombers.

[treatment]

hmm.

I think beam-sabers are over-rated and over-used in Gundam, anyway.

I think beam-sabres is just homage to the samurai image.

I don't recall Kou being a newtype, but he was good with the GP-01/GP03. Likewise Chris with the Gundam-Alex.

A battle-axe is different, tho. I think it's ok for a Valkyrie to have a battle-axe. The blade could be incorporated into the gunpod.

But I still think the VF-11 bayonet was the best and most logical way.

I think the beam-sabres are only good for creating instant-onsen in snowcapped mountains.

Edited April 27, 2004 by treatment

[Final Vegeta]

The answer is much simpler than any of that. Gundam, at least UC, had nearly all radar nullified by the invention of minovsky particles.

And Macross has active stealth. It was not a coincidence. There was no big talking of it, but it was there along with energy converting armor, and Zero proves it.

Anyway, Macross just chose to portray another style of combat.

I suppose exposing your enemy to your plasma exhausts could have some effects, or maybe not.

Anyway, these images (scroll to the bottom) show that Valkyries don't really need short range weapons.

Btw, about the VF-11's gunpod... did anyone notice caliber and number of barrels are the same of A-10's gun? After all, they were both named Thunderbolt...

FV

Edited April 27, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[ewilen]

I've also read that the Russian tanks at Prokhorovka (a part of the battle of Kursk in 1943) resorted to ramming the German panzers when they ran out of ammo or had their guns disabled...but recent research apparently has debunked much of that story. And so another great military story bites the dust...damn.

What about the German RammKommando? German squadrons in WW2 flying heavily-armored and reinforced FW-190s who were supposed to crash into Allied bombers and then (theoretically) fly off to their base? That one's been verified as true.

Hmm. A quick search on Google suggests that the Rammkommando were supposed to bail out of their planes (stripped-down Me109's) just before hitting the bombers in the tail. There was only one such operation, on April 7, 1945. I also came across references to late-war FW-190 units being instructed to ram bombers, but only when they were out of options (out of ammo, damaged, wounded, etc.). I don't think anyone expected the ramming aircraft to survive the collisions.

I suspect the most recent occasion in which ramming was deliberately used in a non-suicidal fashion must have been during WWII, when destroyers rammed submarines as a standard tactic. Before that, famous modern rammings include the Dreadnought ramming U-29 in 1915--the only battleship to sink a sub, and the only time the Dreadnought saw combat--and the Battle of Lissa in 1866--a pretty ridiculous affair.

[Ghadrack]

First off I agree that Macross is much better off without the glitzy swordfighting.

Dexterity and Agility are key in martial combat. One reason Bretai was able to pummel the Valks in hand to hand is that he is an agile, unencumbered soldier versus a plodding robot. Even weighing the VT down with an auxiliary knife is unnessecary, if they can't get it done with their gunpod and headlasers what good is a pocketknife or a sword going to do?

[Final Vegeta]

Sure, Tanks fight from 3-4km out, but a MS can cover that same distance much, much faster than a tank.

Which is kinda weird since they have almost the same horsepower and weigh the same

Anyway, IIRC, in desert storm the record for a hard kill was 5.1 km afar. And a tank round should travel at 1.5 km/s. It takes an advanced Valkyrie to go faster than that.

FV

[Agent ONE]

Why don't Valks have beam sabres, why?

Because Macross makes sense...

[Knight26]

The simplest reason why no beam sabers in macross, they are stupid.

[JB0]

First off I agree that Macross is much better off without the glitzy swordfighting.

Dexterity and Agility are key in martial combat. One reason Bretai was able to pummel the Valks in hand to hand is that he is an agile, unencumbered soldier versus a plodding robot. Even weighing the VT down with an auxiliary knife is unnessecary, if they can't get it done with their gunpod and headlasers what good is a pocketknife or a sword going to do?

He also just physically overpowered them, though.

Which is a prime example of why they should not, under any circumstances, be given melee weapons. They aren't PHYSICALLY tough enough to go hand-to-hand with an unarmed man of equivalent size.

Though the simplest solutions are sometimes the best.

The gunpod can be used as a club, the foerarm can be used to strike people, you can punch them with the fist(if you want to risk damaging all those parts in the fingers...), knee them, kick them, tackle them, fire the head laser(hey, this may be an EFFECTIVE move, too!)...

There's so much built in already, why add a sharp pointy object?

And if you do, why add more parts? A sharp edge on the forearm is the simplest way to add a blade(preferably one of the corners, since there's already a wedge there, even if it's wider than desired). Instead of drawing your sword and swinging it, just smack 'em with your forearm. Not as much leverage, but you've still got a lot of mass behind it. Serrate the edge and it'll do nasty things to flesh(whre it might kinda sort of maybe be useful...).

Or sharpen the fingertips and jab 'em into something soft. Beats a knife. Heck, add hooked claws and they might even be useful outside of fistfights with unarmed zentradi.

Weapons added: 2. Complexity added: 0. Utility added: .25, because I can see uses for the claws, just not for melee combat.

[Mr March]

And Macross has active stealth. It was not a coincidence. There was no big talking of it, but it was there along with energy converting armor, and Zero proves it.

But remember, the Cyclops radar was able to detect Active Stealth on the SV-51, whereas conventional radar on the F-14's couldn't see anything. Also, the Cyclops can see underwater, a medium that nulifies conventional radar.

[Mr March]

...One reason Bretai was able to pummel the Valks in hand to hand is that he is an agile, unencumbered soldier versus a plodding robot...

He also just physically overpowered them, though.

Which is a prime example of why they should not, under any circumstances, be given melee weapons. They aren't PHYSICALLY tough enough to go hand-to-hand with an unarmed man of equivalent size.

Britai was the exception, not the rule. Keep in mind, Britai was larger, stronger, and built more powerful than the average Zentradi. When Max was in his VF, he had no trouble overpowering Zentradi grunts in melee. In fact, the physical strength of a Valkyire seems to be much greater than the comparable strength of an average Zentradi. In fact, at full power, it would be doubtful that a Zentradi could damage a VF in hand-to-hand. Britai was laying the boots to Hikaru and did no real damage until the Valkyrie was penetrated by a spiked wall. All the current cases of Zentradi damaging a VF have been successful only after other significant damage was sustained (the spiked wall piercing Hikaru's VF in his fight with Britai, Roy's VF being shot in the chest with a beam gun prior to Kamjin's melee attack, etc).

[Druna Skass]

If a Zentraedi can over power a VF then why not equip them with something like a forearm switch blade. If the pilot can get that blade through the Zentraedi's chest or decapitate them, then the fight's over and the VF wins, instead of the Zentraedi mauling the crap out of the VF Britai style.

Just to make it clear I mean a simple forearm blade like the one Heavyarms has, not something like that Schwert Gewehr sword the Strike Gundam has.

[Keith]

Wait a minute, isn't that the forearm of the Heavy Arms?!

[JB0]

...One reason Bretai was able to pummel the Valks in hand to hand is that he is an agile, unencumbered soldier versus a plodding robot...

He also just physically overpowered them, though.

Which is a prime example of why they should not, under any circumstances, be given melee weapons. They aren't PHYSICALLY tough enough to go hand-to-hand with an unarmed man of equivalent size.

Britai was the exception, not the rule. Keep in mind, Britai was larger, stronger, and built more powerful than the average Zentradi.

But he was still flesh and bone.

When Max was in his VF, he had no trouble overpowering Zentradi grunts in melee.  In fact, the physical strength of a Valkyire seems to be much greater than the comparable strength of an average Zentradi.  In fact, at full power, it would be doubtful that a Zentradi could damage a VF in hand-to-hand.  Britai was laying the boots to Hikaru and did no real damage until the Valkyrie was penetrated by a spiked wall.  All the current cases of Zentradi damaging a VF have been successful only after other significant damage was sustained (the spiked wall piercing Hikaru's VF in his fight with Britai, Roy's VF being shot in the chest with a beam gun prior to Kamjin's melee attack, etc).

Maybe.

[JB0]

If a Zentraedi can over power a VF then why not equip them with something like a forearm switch blade. If the pilot can get that blade through the Zentraedi's chest or decapitate them, then the fight's over and the VF wins, instead of the Zentraedi mauling the crap out of the VF Britai style.

Just to make it clear I mean a simple forearm blade like the one Heavyarms has, not something like that Schwert Gewehr sword the Strike Gundam has.

Because melee puts the valkyrie in a position it should pretty learly never be in: close enough for something else to grab.

Sine it can be ripped a apart by a bare-handed man(if an unusually powerful one) it stands to reason that it should NOT engage people in close-range combat. It should stand back and shoot them.

And claws are better than the Heavyarms blade, because they add no moving parts.

[eugimon]

If valks are supposed to approximate infantry in modern warfare.. I think all we need to do is look at modern infantry.

For close in fighting, infantry use fire-arms. Everything from hand guns, to shotgun type weapons, to automatic rifles. They do not go in with swords and other melee weapons.

Even my old sensei said, "If you want to learn how to defend yourself from an attacker, go buy a gun and learn how to use it." This from a man who was had 3rd degree or higher black belts in 5 different forms, and lower black belts in a few more for good measure.

The idea of fighting with giant swords is silly... incredbily silly, so silly you have to start inventing reasons why they fight with swords... they have "special" powers that lets them block enemy ranged attacks are other fantasy.

Swords are only good against unamred opponents or oppenents who are similarily armed.

[Graham]

If valks are supposed to approximate infantry in modern warfare.. I think all we need to do is look at modern infantry.

For close in fighting, infantry use fire-arms. Everything from hand guns, to shotgun type weapons, to automatic rifles. They do not go in with swords and other melee weapons.

Even my old sensei said, "If you want to learn how to defend yourself from an attacker, go buy a gun and learn how to use it." This from a man who was had 3rd degree or higher black belts in 5 different forms, and lower black belts in a few more for good measure.

The idea of fighting with giant swords is silly... incredbily silly, so silly you have to start inventing reasons why they fight with swords... they have "special" powers that lets them block enemy ranged attacks are other fantasy.

Swords are only good against unamred opponents or oppenents who are similarily armed.

Completely agree with everything you've said.

One only has to look at CNN to see how many US soldiers you see running around Iraq with two katanas strappped to their back. The answer, exactly none.

Of course there maybe some hardcore Gundam fans in the JSDF, so you never know

Graham

[soze]

One only has to look at CNN to see how many US soldiers you see running around Iraq with two katanas strappped to their back. The answer, exactly none.

Yeah, but if they all had huge big oversized heavy swords like the one Guts carried in Berserk... they could take out 100 men each! ......... well um, maybe not.

[wolfx]

The idea of fighting with giant swords is silly... incredbily silly, so silly you have to start inventing reasons why they fight with swords... they have "special" powers that lets them block enemy ranged attacks are other fantasy.

Swords are only good against unamred opponents or oppenents who are similarily armed.

Well in Escaflowne, they fight with giant swords.

But that's only cause they don't have proper projectiles other than a giant ballista turned longbow for a Guymelef.

[Mechmaster]

Approaching the subject from a slightly different angle, if Valkyries were not intended to engage the Zentradei at close quarters why do they need to be transformable. If the intention is to stand off and engage with ranged weapons, wouldn't conventional vehicles be just as effective and a damn sight cheaper? What is actually gained by having a humanoid form?

And if the Valk's robot mode is intended to counter giant aliens at close quarters then surely some form of close combat weapon would help even if its just a sock full of quarters.

[Final Vegeta]

But remember, the Cyclops radar was able to detect Active Stealth on the SV-51, whereas conventional radar on the F-14's couldn't see anything. Also, the Cyclops can see underwater, a medium that nulifies conventional radar.

Cyclops radar detects PCS or the like, not Valkyries. It detected the AFOS, no-one talked about detecting a SV-51.

Indeed, Valkyries have also technology to counter radar ECM. They use IR, laser pointers and the like. Yes, it all comes back to Gundam. Even energy converting armor was on that line. It took me a while to understood how it was meant.

In this thread I talked about how VF-1's stats were supposed to be read.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

The idea of fighting with giant swords is silly... incredbily silly, so silly you have to start inventing reasons why they fight with swords... they have "special" powers that lets them block enemy ranged attacks are other fantasy.

Evangelion. Gundam. Matrix. Star Wars. Even Escaflowne. The path of modern epic starts from finding a way to cut down guns' advantage and push to more cool close combat styles.

FV

[F-ZeroOne]

Considering that the whole reason for designing the transformable valkyrie was to counter the size of the Zentraidi why wouldn't they have melee weapons. I mean we finally get to see a shield in the VF-11, yf-19, yf-21 but why no beam sabres or heat axes. I mean the GU-11 is only good as an oversized club.

Possibly its because Valk pilots follow what I believe is official US Army policy on what to do when confronted with a skilled melee fighter.

Shoot them.

( the exact origin of this method of tackling sword-waving maniacs is not known for certain, but many make reference to some legendary figure known only as "Indy"... )

[Druna Skass]

How effective would smacking a fully armored Zentran with an empty gunpod be? If their armor is stronger than the gun, you just broke a perfectly good gun. What would you be able to do with claws? Unless they're Resident Evil Tyrant style claws you're not going to be able to stab them too deeply or cut off any limbs.

As far as the just shoot them argument goes, typing in IDKFA will only give you infinate ammo in Doom, and wearing a headband won't work either.

I'm not saying the knife should be the primary weapon, but it's always nice to have something that doesn't need to be re-loaded or aimed when the enemy's on top of you.

[Druna Skass]

Because melee puts the valkyrie in a position it should pretty learly never be in: close enough for something else to grab.

Sine it can be ripped a apart by a bare-handed man(if an unusually powerful one) it stands to reason that it should NOT engage people in close-range combat. It should stand back and shoot them.

Should not be in, but one will find itself in that situation, so why not give the pilot a something to tip things in their favor a little. Just because something's not meant to be in a particular situation, does not mean it will never find itself in that situation, especialy in a battlefield situation. crap happens, doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Remember this line...

VF-11 pilot: "crap! my gunpod's jammed! Mayday! Mayday!"

Like with Isamu's wingman in Macross Plus, you just might find yourself in a situation where the enemy is in your face and you can't shoot them.

Edited April 28, 2004 by Druna Skass

[Knight26]

YOu also have to consider the size difference between a standard Zentraedi soldier and a VF-1. The VF-1 is much taller, Breetai was one of the larger breed that is one of the reasons why he was able to take Hiakru and the gang so easily. Somebody dig out the size chart, a valkyrie in hand to hand combat would easily have the advantage if they were in standard combat armor. Most military planners would see that as enough of an advantage and in order to cut costs would eliminate any type of hand weapons. In the Macross plus era the Zentran we see are in power armored suits making them on par with the size of the VF-11, in those cases melee combat would be far riskier as the power armor would likely be superior in melee engagements. The bayonet fitted to the VF-11 gunpod was likely a late addition to the design in response to newer, faster better power armored rogue zentrans. For the most part the pilots would still engage with the weapon at range and not risk a hand to hand engagement with a superior foe. The pinpoint barrier punch added the VF-19 and VF-22 was another answer to the problem of unexpected close quarter combat, it is a far better solution though as it makes the weapon built in with no drag causing externals like a a knife would cause, and the VF-11 bayonet.

Simply put VF-1s did not have melee weapons because it was likely considered overkill due to the size difference and lets face it flesh vs. metal, flesh looses. The later melee weapons were added upon learning of the enemies superior fighting suits and were improved upon with time.

[Jasonc]

Beam sabres just kind of dumb down the reality of what Macross was/is. A modern day world gets a blessing/curse of an alien space ship, and they implement new technological ideas with contemporary weaponry. That's what made it so intriguing is the "realness" of the show. The bayonet on the VF-11 is a melee weapon, but still has a realness to it.

And like someone said, this is Macross, not Gundam. If I really was into the fantasy sci-fi, Gundam does a little more in that realm. Me, I like it close to reality.

[Mr March]

But remember, the Cyclops radar was able to detect Active Stealth on the SV-51, whereas conventional radar on the F-14's couldn't see anything.  Also, the Cyclops can see underwater, a medium that nulifies conventional radar.

Cyclops radar detects PCS or the like, not Valkyries. It detected the AFOS, no-one talked about detecting a SV-51.

Indeed, Valkyries have also technology to counter radar ECM. They use IR, laser pointers and the like. Yes, it all comes back to Gundam. Even energy converting armor was on that line. It took me a while to understood how it was meant.

In this thread I talked about how VF-1's stats were supposed to be read.

FV

The F-14's in Macross Zero were completely unable to track the SV-51. Once the VF-0 came into play, the Cyclops systems on the Valkyrie had no trouble tracking and launching missiles against the SV-51's Active Stealth system. This also follows in Macross Plus, as the YF-21 was virtually undetectable to the VF-11, but the newer YF-19 had no trouble locking on to the YF-21 or tracking it.

As for the coincidental comparison of a Valkyrie to a Gundam, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Two thirds of this and two thirds of that is irrelevant to the points I'm trying to make. The Valkyrie was given stats to mimic modern aircraft, a passion of Kawamori's. The size of the Valkyrie, the weight of the Valkyrie, the thrust of the Valkyrie, the ammunition of a Valkyrie all more closely resemble that of a modern combat aircraft and not by mutiples or fractions of Gundam mecha. Kawamori liked mecha for certain, but the Valkyries are clearly drawn from aircraft lineages and use such real world conventions.

Macross Zero was simply the first time in the Macross franchise that the plot required Kawamori to supply the audience with a clear indication of just how advanced the tranforming Valkyries were over modern technology. We as the audience had to see and needed to be told the reasons why they created these technological marvels and why the Valkyries were so superior to a conventional fighter craft. Suspension of disbeleif demanded that the script be heavily laden with exposition.

[Mr March]

Should not be in, but one will find itself in that situation, so why not give the pilot a something to tip things in their favor a little. Just because something's not meant to be in a particular situation, does not mean it will never find itself in that situation, especialy in a battlefield situation. crap happens, doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Remember this line...

VF-11 pilot: "crap! my gunpod's jammed! Mayday! Mayday!"

Like with Isamu's wingman in Macross Plus, you just might find yourself in a situation where the enemy is in your face and you can't shoot them.

I can answer this question (in a way, my previous post already did).

Simply put, the cost to benefit was not enough to justify melee weaponry on a Valkyrie until the early 2040's. The military is still ruled by necessity and budget. If the Valkyries only enter melee combat in 5% of all battle situations, what sense is there for the military to spend exorbiant amounts of money on R&D for melee weapons on Valkyries? Makes more sense for the UN Spacy to just build more Valkyries, more missiles, better guns, etc.

Now by the 2040's, the UN Spacy was no longer at war and was enjoying a period of expansion and economic growth. Eden in particular was booming according to the Macross Plus series. So they could probably afford to indulge in more expensive equipment for the Valkyrie, including spending money to outfit Valkyries like the VF-11 with Anti-Mecha bayonets. Hell the YF-21 and YF-19 were super fighters testbeds packed with all kinds of crazy, cutting edge technology. It's possible the order of battle had also changed in the 2040's and more mecha found themselves in melee combat for whatever reason.

Demand and economic viability is pretty much what necessitated the shift.

[LordSixx]

I'll make it real simple people... giant robots with swords SUCK!!! Giant robots with guns KICK ASS!!!

[RichterX]

I'll make it real simple people... giant robots with swords SUCK!!! Giant robots with guns KICK ASS!!!

and guns and missiles rules!

[imode]

Melee Weapons vs. Automatic Rifles: Round 1 start!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/04/2...ence/index.html

[eugimon]

Because melee puts the valkyrie in a position it should pretty learly never be in: close enough for something else to grab.

Sine it can be ripped a apart by a bare-handed man(if an unusually powerful one) it stands to reason that it should NOT engage people in close-range combat. It should stand back and shoot them.

Should not be in, but one will find itself in that situation, so why not give the pilot a something to tip things in their favor a little. Just because something's not meant to be in a particular situation, does not mean it will never find itself in that situation, especialy in a battlefield situation. crap happens, doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Remember this line...

VF-11 pilot: "crap! my gunpod's jammed! Mayday! Mayday!"

Like with Isamu's wingman in Macross Plus, you just might find yourself in a situation where the enemy is in your face and you can't shoot them.

What's interesting about that line is that Isamu's wingman was in trouble because Isamu left his wingman. You never leave your wingman, you never go it alone.

If you are in a situation where your weapon becomes combat non functional, your squad mates are there to back you up.

You do not pull a sword and start swinging away.

Why? Because, a sword is not an elegent weapon no matter waht kenobi says.

You need space to swing that thing around and if you don't know what you're doing, you're likely to hurt yourself as well as the enemy.

While you're swinging away, if we're talking about infantry, you're going to hit the person next to you unless you're fighting in formation with short swords. In which case you dont swing, you stab and hack and the person next to you protects your flanks.

If you're using a long sword, battle tactics change. there is more space between combatants, and yet most encounters only last few moves. The idea of a prolonged sword fight is fantasy. IF you're spread out like this, you become easy targets for anyone with a ranged weapon.

Once again, let's look at history. Even in Feudal Japan, once longbows and later fire arms were developed/introduced, sword fighting became a very very specialized part of warfare. It eventually became a martial arts form.. like fencing.

It simply does not make sense to give soldiers melee weapons. It requires extra training, training that must be kept up continually. It requires drilling with melee weapons with other units so you don't kill/maim friends, and it requires extra equipment.

It also promotes heroics... this is a bad thing. People who charge into battle and leave their squadmates behind die but worse they make it difficult for their mates. It is much better to train your soldiers to be cautious and look out for one another.

Sword fighting is fun to watch, it is impressive and has the cool factor, but in modern warfare a sword fight is an anachronism.

[Druna Skass]

What's interesting about that line is that Isamu's wingman was in trouble because Isamu left his wingman. You never leave your wingman, you never go it alone.

If you are in a situation where your weapon becomes combat non functional, your squad mates are there to back you up.

You do not pull a sword and start swinging away.

Why? Because, a sword is not an elegent weapon no matter waht kenobi says.

You need space to swing that thing around and if you don't know what you're doing, you're likely to hurt yourself as well as the enemy.

While you're swinging away, if we're talking about infantry, you're going to hit the person next to you unless you're fighting in formation with short swords. In which case you dont swing, you stab and hack and the person next to you protects your flanks.

If you're using a long sword, battle tactics change. there is more space between combatants, and yet most encounters only last few moves. The idea of a prolonged sword fight is fantasy. IF you're spread out like this, you become easy targets for anyone with a ranged weapon.

Once again, let's look at history. Even in Feudal Japan, once longbows and later fire arms were developed/introduced, sword fighting became a very very specialized part of warfare. It eventually became a martial arts form.. like fencing.

It simply does not make sense to give soldiers melee weapons. It requires extra training, training that must be kept up continually. It requires drilling with melee weapons with other units so you don't kill/maim friends, and it requires extra equipment.

It also promotes heroics... this is a bad thing. People who charge into battle and leave their squadmates behind die but worse they make it difficult for their mates. It is much better to train your soldiers to be cautious and look out for one another.

Sword fighting is fun to watch, it is impressive and has the cool factor, but in modern warfare a sword fight is an anachronism.

A sword? When did I mention a sword? I was reffering to installing a switch-blade type knife in the forearms and using them as a last resort or when the enemy decides it's a great idea to get into your face.

Yes your wingmen are supposed to cover you, so when need to resort to using that blade they're either all busy or all dead, either case they probably won't be near enough to hit.

As far as heroics are concerned, aren't they trained not to do that? A fully loaded machine gun can "promote heroics" as well.