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45 minutes ago, Lexomatic said:

That looks to be a fan image, but how conjectural is it? Lessee ... there was an MSD (screencap at Memory Alpha) in the relevant episode of ST:VGR ("The Raven", 4.07), and it does show five decks with an aft shuttlebay, but most of the other details are different. The Decipher RPG identifies it as an Aerie-class surveyor with a length of 90 meters. I agree, that would be plenty of cubic for cargo and a half-dozen supernumerary passengers. It's a rather boring boxy shape, but Rios could've given it the red-stripey antithesis-of-sober-Starfleet Narn-reminiscent paint scheme seen in ST:PIC.

That a ship of that size and capability can be operated for years on end by a crew of two (viz., Annika Hansen's obsessed-scientist parents) attests to Federation-built mid-24cen durability and automation. (When not being abused by cosmozoans and space anomalies every other week; Starfleet vessels need crew mainly for damage control, I guess.) Of course, we've had solo operators at least since TOS, with the Cyrano Jones and Harcourt Mudds of the universe.

I think it would have looked both cool and 'in-universe.' The ship they have just looks too 'un'Trekish... Whereas the Raven could be modified to make it look more sleek and Rios-ified for a hero-ship role.

Edited by Thom
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On 8/5/2020 at 11:11 AM, Lexomatic said:

(When not being abused by cosmozoans and space anomalies every other week; Starfleet vessels need crew mainly for damage control, I guess.)

A detail more or less stated outright in the TNG Season 1 writer's bible... 24th century computer automation is so good and so far-reaching that it's perfectly possible for even a ship as large as the Galaxy-class USS Enterprise to operate with a one-man crew in the short term.  A significant portion of the crew exists primarily to maintain the ship's systems (or the other members of the crew).

 

On 8/5/2020 at 11:56 AM, Thom said:

I think it would have looked both cool and 'in-universe.' The ship they have just looks too 'un'Trekish... Whereas the Raven could be modified to make it look more sleek and Rios-ified for a hero-ship role.

IMO, a big part of the problem was that Rios's La Sirena was conceived as a non-Federation freighter design that'd been retrofitted with Federation mod-cons and luxury extras... and the non-Federation freighter designs in previous Star Trek shows tended to be rather uninspiring designs that were little more than boxes with engines on 'em:
1000?cb=20120729215757&path-prefix=en

latest?cb=20170612175810&path-prefix=en

Etc. etc.

 

 

Incidentally, Star Trek: Lower Decks dropped its first episode the other day and the reviews are not pretty.  CBS is in damage control mode, filing takedown requests at the YouTube reviewer crowd in a bid to silence the unfavorable opinions of it.  It currently has an audience score of 31 on Rotten Tomatoes.  That's significantly worse than even Picard's debut.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Incidentally, Star Trek: Lower Decks dropped its first episode the other day and the reviews are not pretty.

Well, it was exactly what I expected: nerdy in-jokes are everywhere, Tawny Newsome is as obnoxious as the trailers suggested, and the humor and pacing follows the same pattern as every primetime animated sitcom has since The Simpsons established the formula three decades ago.

It was better Star Trek than Picard, funnier than The Orville, and... oh, look at that.  It seems I'm damning with faint praise again.  :unsure:

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13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

CBS is in damage control mode, filing takedown requests at the YouTube reviewer crowd in a bid to silence the unfavorable opinions of it. 

Oh, goodie. Nothing says quality show like illegal DMCA takedown requests targeting reviewers.

 

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Are you sure?  There's some uncertainty on that point.

Okay, I just laughed my butt off at that one.

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6 hours ago, JB0 said:

Oh, goodie. Nothing says quality show like illegal DMCA takedown requests targeting reviewers.

Over the last few years, there's been a sharp increase in that kind of thing... it's an extension of the same attempt to control the conversation about their work that led the studios to buy out many of the major entertainment news websites and turn them into self-hagiographic propaganda outlets.

Bad reviews hurt the bottom line directly, especially now that subscription-based streaming services are such a big part of the entertainment landscape and everyone's trying to launch their own with just a handful of "flagship" titles.

Entertainingly, CBS can't seem to make its usual argument that the critics are racist sexist trolls work for Lower Decks the way they thought it did for Picard.  The criticism's all focused on how derivative it is of Rick and Morty and how forced the humor is, instead of having anything to do with the characters.

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11 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Is CBS still going to do the "To Boldly Go" series, or did they back out of that? I've been out of the loop a bit with IRL stuff as of late...

One of the problems with CBS/ViacomCBS is that they've announced a lot of projects that don't seem to actually be approved or funded.

Strange New Worlds seems to be in the same limbo state as other pitches like the untitled Section 31 series that was to star Michelle Yeoh, the Starfleet Academy series, and the Khan miniseries.  I think Strange New Worlds has a much better chance of getting made than the others, though, since the casting, set design, etc. are already done.  It's practically an entire series of bottle shows, which is appealing to the cash-strapped ViacomCBS and it's at least nominally giving the fans what they want... Star Trek that actually looks and feels like a Star Trek series.  I think it's probably a bitter pill for ViacomCBS and especially Secret Hideout, since the warm reception the Strange New Worlds pitch got is a stark contrast to how a lot of fans greeted DiscoveryPicard, and now Lower Decks.  

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One of the problems with CBS/ViacomCBS is that they've announced a lot of projects that don't seem to actually be approved or funded.

Strange New Worlds seems to be in the same limbo state as other pitches like the untitled Section 31 series that was to star Michelle Yeoh, the Starfleet Academy series, and the Khan miniseries.  I think Strange New Worlds has a much better chance of getting made than the others, though, since the casting, set design, etc. are already done.  It's practically an entire series of bottle shows, which is appealing to the cash-strapped ViacomCBS and it's at least nominally giving the fans what they want... Star Trek that actually looks and feels like a Star Trek series.  I think it's probably a bitter pill for ViacomCBS and especially Secret Hideout, since the warm reception the Strange New Worlds pitch got is a stark contrast to how a lot of fans greeted DiscoveryPicard, and now Lower Decks.  

Ah...why did I think it was "to bodly go" (probably thinking of the opening to TOS ST)?

And I agree: SNW seems to have the best chance out of all of them. Ironic, since the one that has the most promise is one that the fans asked for instead of CBS trying to "create" one!

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1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

And I agree: SNW seems to have the best chance out of all of them. Ironic, since the one that has the most promise is one that the fans asked for instead of CBS trying to "create" one!

All the fans have really asked for is for Star Trek to actually BE Star Trek... an optimistic look at the future.

Even Patrick Stewart, who turned Star Trek: Picard into his personal political soapbox, seems to be having buyer's remorse when it comes to the current state of the franchise.  Word is he's unhappy with how the series turned out and how it was received, and is reluctant to return for a second season.

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Just now, derex3592 said:

I still refuse to watch Picard, as much I absolutely love the "old" Jean Luc Picard  from TNG, I just can't go for Stewart's personal political soapbox show. 

Same here. Only made it through 4 episodes I think. I really hate that a great character has been ruined. 
 

Chris

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All the fans have really asked for is for Star Trek to actually BE Star Trek... an optimistic look at the future.

Exactly; which only reinforces the already iron-clad evidence that CBS wanted an un-Star Trek Star Trek. Star Trek is not "woke" like the current crop out there feel it should be, and trying to make it such is like trying to turn a Ferarri into...er...something else. In all seriousness though, if people want bleak and dreary sci-fi, they have other venues to turn to and it's already been done to death.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even Patrick Stewart, who turned Star Trek: Picard into his personal political soapbox, seems to be having buyer's remorse when it comes to the current state of the franchise.  Word is he's unhappy with how the series turned out and how it was received, and is reluctant to return for a second season.

They should have left Picard where he was, and not tried to drag characters from the endings they originally had for them. Now i can see clearly what you meant in the other topic about bringing back Original Macross characters: too much risk of turning them into sad parodies of themselves.

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All the fans have really asked for is for Star Trek to actually BE Star Trek... an optimistic look at the future.

Even Patrick Stewart, who turned Star Trek: Picard into his personal political soapbox, seems to be having buyer's remorse when it comes to the current state of the franchise.  Word is he's unhappy with how the series turned out and how it was received, and is reluctant to return for a second season.

You mean he’s unhappy with “JL”???? HA! I hope that’s true!

Chris

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8 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I know it keeps going round and round but Star Trek was always "Woke".  And comparing social justice to bleak and dreary is unique.

No, Star Trek was culturally aware, and creative enough to give you a message without bashing your skull in with it directly (comparatively speaking, anyhow :p).  It was also.. you know.. somewhat competently written, which makes a huge difference.

I think the definition of "woke" may be shifting, but my impression is essentially the idea that you must use your platform to promote a specific message, while all concept of good storytelling, fun characters, and being actually enjoyable to watch must take a back seat to the current politically driven agenda.

One of the best points I've heard for both Trek and Wars recently is the idea of making a story "timeless," rather than "relevant."  Timeless stories can be retold, and have a message applicable to all of history.  Relevant stories die along with shifts in political climate. 

It's the difference between an Aesop fable, and an SNL political skit.  One has meaning that will remain relevant.  The other will fade into obscurity as people forget why it was (supposed to be) funny in the first place.

What I find rather amusing is just how utterly bleak and dreary all of these "woke" properties are turning.  Like.. OK, on the one hand, yes, I realize they think they're writing cautionary tales.  But quite honestly?  They just cannot seem to make anything happy for the life of them.  Everything is terrible, everything is bleak, and the future is a nightmare.

Seriously, if that's all they can come up with?  I don't want them having any part in any future I experience.  Get out, and let someone with hope write something for once, before all the doom and gloom becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. :p 

Edited by Chronocidal
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Sorry guys - you are simply giving different names to the same exact thing.  If the Kirk speech of the week is not bashing your head in things directly to make SURE we all got the point then nothing is.  A large number of the Trek episodes are not timeless.  

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Trek has always had opinions on current events. The key difference between old Trek and new Trek is this:

Old Trek used the alien as a mirror the writers can reflect an aspect of society upon without casting these issues directly upon the Federation, thereby keeping the familiar clean.

New Trek imports the problems of modern society directly into the Federation and uses the familiar as a mirror the writers can reflect an aspect of society upon.

 

Critically, the Old Trek approach allows the Federation to exist as a beacon of hope for a better future while commenting on the failings of the past. More often than not, it creates an uplifting message in the end. "These are real problems that we are dealing with in the real world, but we can and WILL overcome them, because humanity is fundamentally better than we give ourselves credit for." That's what Old Trek has to say about social injustice.

The New Trek approach, unfortunately, makes the problems of today seem timeless, immortal, and insurmountable. "These are real problems that we are dealing with in the real world, and they will be problems FOREVER because humanity is fundamentally wretched and incapable of finding a better tomorrow." That's what New Trek has to say about social injustice.

Edited by JB0
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15 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

What I find rather amusing is just how utterly bleak and dreary all of these "woke" properties are turning.  Like.. OK, on the one hand, yes, I realize they think they're writing cautionary tales.  But quite honestly?  They just cannot seem to make anything happy for the life of them.  Everything is terrible, everything is bleak, and the future is a nightmare.

I think it's important to maintain a sense of perspective here.  With all the action and comedy elements in contemporary sci-fi, "bleak and dreary" is hardly commonplace, and could only be applied to Picard or Discovery in relation to earlier incarnations of Star Trek.  These are still fun and entertaining shows, due to their commercial nature, and will never challenge the limitations of the medium in the same way that 1984 or THX-1138 did.  That's what real bleak sci-fi looks like.

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1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Trek has always had opinions on current events. The key difference between old Trek and new Trek is this:

Old Trek used the alien as a mirror the writers can reflect an aspect of society upon without casting these issues directly upon the Federation, thereby keeping the familiar clean.

New Trek imports the problems of modern society directly into the Federation and uses the familiar as a mirror the writers can reflect an aspect of society upon.

Old Trek had to do that - society at the time would have exploded to have their foibles thrust in their face.  Seems times have not actually changed.  And when Old Trek thought they could get away with it the Federation was directly implicated - Women not allowed to be Starship Captains comes to mind.  Pure racism (against the Horta) in Devil in the Dark.

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15 hours ago, Dobber said:

You mean he’s unhappy with “JL”???? HA! I hope that’s true!

That is what a number of different entertainment news outlets are reporting... that Patrick Stewart is reluctant to return to Star Trek: Picard for a second season because he's unhappy with the show's reception and with the treatment of his character in the previous season.

Ironically, in a better-written Star Trek show, what happened to Picard could be the basis for a very interesting story.  Since Picard was unconscious when his brain was scanned into Soong's golem, we don't know if he actually had continuity of consciousness or not during the transfer.  That leaves open the interesting question of whether this android is still the real Jean-Luc Picard or if Jean-Luc Picard is dead and what Soong did was make a copy of his memories and personality.  Would Federation law legally consider him to be the same Jean-Luc Picard or a new instance of Jean-Luc Picard like what happened with the transporter duplicate of Will Riker?

Spoiler

This kind of conundrum was actually toyed with in the Star Trek: the Next Generation relaunch novels, in which it was revealed that Dr. Soong had cheated death after he'd been attacked by Lore by transferring his consciousness into a spare Soong-type android.  Soong has to reassure himself for some time that he is the real Noonian Soong because he had continuity of consciousness throughout the transfer process.  What he did to his ex-wife WRT the android double of her that Data met in TNG was a run-up to his practical bid for immortality as a human consciousness in a fully-artificial body.

 

 

3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

No, Star Trek was culturally aware, and creative enough to give you a message without bashing your skull in with it directly (comparatively speaking, anyhow :p).  It was also.. you know.. somewhat competently written, which makes a huge difference.

Really, you guys are just mincing words here... the point is that, regardless of how you want to classify it, Star Trek was always political and always pushing a "social justice" agenda.  It just usually did a much better job of working that job into its narrative in the past instead of bludgeoning its audience across the head with it.  Recent Trek also has the problem of its writers being massive hypocrites about its message too, like 

 

 

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

Critically, the Old Trek approach allows the Federation to exist as a beacon of hope for a better future while commenting on the failings of the past. More often than not, it creates an uplifting message in the end. "These are real problems that we are dealing with in the real world, but we can and WILL overcome them, because humanity is fundamentally better than we give ourselves credit for." That's what Old Trek has to say about social injustice.

The New Trek approach, unfortunately, makes the problems of today seem timeless, immortal, and insurmountable. "These are real problems that we are dealing with in the real world, and they will be problems FOREVER because humanity is fundamentally wretched and incapable of finding a better tomorrow." That's what New Trek has to say about social injustice.

This is it, precisely.  This is why new Trek tests so poorly with general audiences and long-time fans.  It's the polar opposite of what we expect from Star Trek.

 

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I'm so glad I'm oblivious to all the apparent woke 'subtext' everyone else is seeing. But then every show we see is in some way a mirror of our current climate, so pulling one show out to bash around because of it is strange. Writing? Sure. Turning Picard into a golem? Alright. Having a fleet of copy/paste ships facing another fleet of copy/paste ship? Yes. Having the Federation again be the savoir of an old enemy who, you guessed it, once again lost their homeworld but couldn't handle it themselves for some reason... There are far more reason to complain about than 'wokeness.'

Edited by Thom
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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That is what a number of different entertainment news outlets are reporting... that Patrick Stewart is reluctant to return to Star Trek: Picard for a second season because he's unhappy with the show's reception and with the treatment of his character in the previous season.

 

Which is strange (on the treatment of the character) since last year he was supposedly pulling a Sigurney Weaver to make the changes he wanted to the character.

Strange that a failing show (Discovery) is nearly ready to start showing its third season and a spinoff is in the works.  

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7 minutes ago, Thom said:

You know, I wouldn't mind if at this point they made it Star Trek Riker.8)

"These are the voyages of the starship Tiberius. Their five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly shag where no man has shagged before."

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2 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Which is strange (on the treatment of the character) since last year he was supposedly pulling a Sigurney Weaver to make the changes he wanted to the character.

A bit, yes... one has to wonder if he's having a case of "that sounded cooler in my head" when it came to the direction Star Trek: Picard ultimately took.

Alternatively, maybe there's some truth to the rumor that Star Trek: Picard's first season was supposed to end with Jean-Luc Picard dying and subsequently carry on without him and it fell victim to the panicky course-corrections that beset much of the season's second half.

 

2 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Strange that a failing show (Discovery) is nearly ready to start showing its third season and a spinoff is in the works.  

Neither of those things is all that odd in the broader context of the clusterf*ck Secret Hideout has turned Star Trek into.

CBS put a lot of its eggs in the Star Trek: Discovery basket when they sank ~$250 million into its development and made it the flagship of their unasked-for streaming service.  They're not going to let Discovery die until it's either made back that investment - which ain't happening with the show's near-total lack of merchandising support - or Netflix calls CBS's bluff and makes the show's third budget cut a total one.  CBS's finances are in the toilet in the wake of their re-merger with Viacom.  They literally can't afford to post a $200 million loss on what was supposed to be a sure thing.  The shareholders will eat them alive if they do.  (One has to wonder how much truth there is in the claims from inside CBS that part of Picard's budget was redirected to Discovery's third season after Netflix slashed Discovery's budget for the second time.)

Strange New Worlds might have been pitched as a Star Trek: Discovery spinoff... but what it is is damage control.  It's the concept of a bottle episode taken to its logical extreme.  An entire series of bottle episodes made with the already developed and paid-for art assets, sets, props, costumes, and effects developed at great expense for the unsuccessful Star Trek: Discovery series.  The goal is obvious: create a new Star Trek series that fans might actually watch without spending any more money on development, so that any profit made from it repays the massive investment CBS made in developing Discovery.  

Mind you, that's assuming ViacomCBS can find someone willing to put up a production budget for Strange New Worlds.  They've kind of poisoned the well twice over, possibly thrice now that Star Trek: Lower Decks has come out to surprisingly little fanfare and quite a bit of carping.  Discovery performed so poorly that Netflix took a hard pass on Star Trek: Picard, and there have been reports that Amazon Prime is similarly unhappy with how Star Trek: Picard fared.  Nickelodeon may be joining that unhappy club if Lower Decks doesn't improve considerably in the near future.

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17 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Maybe what we need is a Trek series all about the guys who make the photon torpedoes...

Well, all they'd have to do is continue that one scene on Mars without the attack happening. A whole sixty minutes of it!

Edited by Thom
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