VFTF1 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) I don't know who Bendo or Memo are but I do know we will not let MW, even the RT/HG thread turn into the RT: Warzone(pre-rules). Debate all you want about RT/HG/Macross and how they interrelate to each other but the moment multiple members start "reporting" posts and when 50% readers are the moderating/admin staff that should start sounding warning bells. Agreed. That said, I personally don't think it's turning into a flame war, or has come anywhere close to it. All that's happened is that the people who run some Robotech sites and have banned several people who are now MW members came here to continue their argument. So far, I think the argument has by and large proceeded in a way that focuses on the issues. Sure - it's a heated argument and some people get emotional over it. But nobody has been swearing at other people or demeaning them, and when someone does let a tad bit of personal language get in the way - it's usually done in a larger context. That is, I have indeed seen words like "twit" or "stupid" and a couple of other choice terms flying around - but always in a broader context. I hardly think anyone on the recieving end will get offended by these words if they are coming along with multiple arguments in the context of a heated debate. They're just a bit of melodramatical flare - and they constitute, by my rough estimate, 0.0000009% of the totality of posts. Second of all - on a personal level, with all due respect, but I find the practice of anonymous "reporting" of posts questionable. Whenever I see something I consider a violation of the rules on this forum, I say it OUT LOUD to the people who I think are violating the rules. I don't even PM them - I just write in a post "be careful guys - this could break the rules." I do this mainly because I don't want to see friends get into trouble. I have also noticed that other people also point this out - even to me - when I am violating the rules. In the majority of cases, the membership on this forum self-moderates. You guys usually don't have to come into a thread because the people in the thread look out for eachother and make sure nobody crosses any lines. I think this is preferable to anonymous reports that create a tense situation and compel mods to read the thread. But - ok. So now you guys are reading it. For me - this thread is kind of like a twilight zone. I am not a Robotech fan, and I have never been a member of any Robotech website, nor do I plan on it. This is not because I "hate" Robotech - rather, it's for the same reason I have never been nor do I plan on being a member of a My Little Pony website or a Brady Bunch website or a Camp Batman from the 60s website - because I'm not that interested. Sure, I can read and write about those subjects if they come up in individual threads - but I'm not that into them to go and join their websites. Robotech fans, however, end up coming here to debate with us, and there is of course no way to ignore the fact that Robotech has SOMETHING to do with the history of Macross and that a vast number of people are still confused about it. This thread serves to iron out the confusion and set people clear. To make sure that if a Robotech fan wants to be a Robotech fan and reject Macross, then he or she at least KNOWS what is being rejected. I've been trying to balance between two things: A) Supporting Macross over Robotech and showing why Macross is better (my opinion) B) Being fair to people with the opposite view and making sure they are not flamed by the majority who happen to all love Macross more So far - I haven't seen anything in the thread that can qualify as a flame war. There might have been tense moments that looked like they were going to be infractions against the rules. But nothing more IMO. All of us in this thread (except Memo, and Doug Bendo who just got here) post in multiple other threads on Macross World. I think all of us are very aware of the rules here and respect them. Pete Edited December 14, 2009 by VFTF1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Speaking for myself personally (and I would suspect a few others too), at the end of the day I simply could not give a stuff about Robotech. If people want to watch it and enjoy it, whatever, I don't care. What dougbendo, memo, etc. can't understand is that a lot Macross fans really hate RT due to its inevitable association with Harmony Gold and the fact that its this company that primarily stops new Macross shows from getting a release outside of Japan. I know its stating the bleeding obvious and I know that I am not speaking for everybody, but if HG would loosen up on its attempts to control all things Macross (and I'm not just talking about Macross itself here, I think what they have been doing to Mechwarrior and the like is sheer bloody-mindedness) and allow shows like Frontier, Zero, 7 and the like get a proper release, then I would be happy for HG to do whatever it wanted with RT, it would just not be an issue for me anymore. I know that I am simplifying things, and there are other issues in getting Macross released, like dealing with Big West, but HG must be seen as the keystone to the problems. I know that this is Shawn and Graham's Macrossworld, nobody elses, and if people are not going to respect that then they should get the hell out of here. If the powers that be don't want a flame war here, then we should certainly take the fight back to places like RT.com and just argue with them over there. Inevitably we will be called trolls and face suspensions and bans for voicing opinions that they do not like. Using that logic, I think that there is no place for the likes of dougbendo and memo to be posting here, since to me, all they are doing is trolling and really upsetting the applecart. Another option rather than banning and suspending people here might be to lock this thread for a while, give people a chance to cool down over Christmas. The likes of dougbendo would take the news of this back to their normal forums and podcasts and claim some sort of victory, but we are mature and intelligent enough to know better than that. Just my thoughts. Feel free to ignore them.... Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Actually I was thinking of doing just that---locking it for a while, then re-opening it when things have cooled down and a few more people are banned---no, we're not done yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 If the powers that be don't want a flame war here, then we should certainly take the fight back to places like RT.com and just argue with them over there. Inevitably we will be called trolls and face suspensions and bans for voicing opinions that they do not like. Using that logic, I think that there is no place for the likes of dougbendo and memo to be posting here, since to me, all they are doing is trolling and really upsetting the applecart. Taks makes a good point here. I will try t clarify this point: What does it say when a Mod bans somebody from Website X and then comes to website Y to argue with the person that he banned from Website X? It does indeed look silly when these guys ban Seto and a few others and then...finding there is nobody to talk to...come here to continue a discussion they were having on another website which abruptly came to an end when they banned the people they were talking too In the words of Galvatron: "This is bad comedy!" That said - I do think that there is no point in giving them an easy out. And I think that banning Doug Bendo from MW - especially when he hasn't commited any grevious infractions - and IMO he hasn't (yet?) - would be giving him and his ilk an easy way out. The ONE THING that these guys cannot do in the long run is debate. They run out of arguments really fast. When they have the power to ban people, they ban them at the moment when they can't think of anything else to say - so they switch gears from "counter argument" to "finding a technical reason to get rid of you." But put them in MW forum - in this thread - where they don't have the power to ban and only have the equal rights of all members to write their opinions - and what do we find? We find that they are quickly "out of ammunition." And either they will chill out and agree to disagree and go home or stick around to check out the other threads, or think up new arguments and continue the debate OR they will snap. Either way - banning them now would be a bad idea and even discussing it is IMO - a bad idea. It's a bad idea because we've just started to debate them here. Get rid of them now when they haven't done anything horribly against the rules and you just give them ammunition to say "see - MW members have no right to complain about us banning them. They banned us." Of course you can find places where they broke some rules - technically. But hey - you can find places where I technically broke some rules too. You can do it to everybody. I'm NOT trying to get around the fact that ultimately the mods have final say. But what I am saying is that I think you gotta be careful because to slam the banhammer down when all that is going on is a heated but civil debate in the appropriate thread would leave a lot of bad taste in people's mouths I think. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) Am I banned? ...oh, guess not... I know that this is Shawn and Graham's Macrossworld, nobody elses, and if people are not going to respect that then they should get the hell out of here. If the powers that be don't want a flame war here, then we should certainly take the fight back to places like RT.com and just argue with them over there. Inevitably we will be called trolls and face suspensions and bans for voicing opinions that they do not like. Using that logic, I think that there is no place for the likes of dougbendo and memo to be posting here, since to me, all they are doing is trolling and really upsetting the applecart. The only problem there, Tak, is "what do we accomplish"? We go there, they ban us... They come here, we ban them... The only real difference is that in the beginning, when we ban them, its because they were actually breaking a rule...Not voicing an opinion that the Admins/Mods dont like, and thus "whack-a-ban" for. There's just no point in dealing with the vast majority that is Robotech's fanbase. Oh...and I'd be Robotech 3000, because very little is known about it, and most like to pretend it never existed Edited December 14, 2009 by Saraphys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Am I banned? ...oh, guess not... The only problem there, Tak, is "what do we accomplish"? We go there, they ban us... They come here, we ban them... The only real difference is that in the beginning, when we ban them, its because they were actually breaking a rule...Not voicing an opinion that the Admins/Mods dont like, and thus "whack-a-ban" for. There's just no point in dealing with the vast majority that is Robotech's fanbase. We accomplish "Peace in our time", or at least peace on forums that have no interest in hosting a flame war that has been going on for a considerable time. Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 We accomplish "Peace in our time" Peace is boring... "Make Love, not Peace" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Peace is boring... "Make Love, not Peace" I'M not making love to dougbendo.... :lol: Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) I'M not making love to dougbendo.... :lol: Taksraven Well, to take one from Bendover's comment's to me once... He can go make love to a dog... ...Assuming he's typing with his "Girlfriend" Edited December 14, 2009 by Saraphys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Well, to take one from Bendover's comment's to me once... He can go make love to a dog... ...Assuming he's typing with his "Girlfriend" He does have that sexy singlet though...... :D Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Actually I was thinking of doing just that---locking it for a while, then re-opening it when things have cooled down and a few more people are banned---no, we're not done yet. IMHO, locking this thread won't really achieve anything that couldn't be achieved just as easily by enforcing a change of subject. Some people just don't want to let it go, so they quote the posts by the belligerent few and post big, long, wordy responses that provoke further belligerent behavior... lather, rinse, repeat. Best solution is to address the ones who'll at least try to debate in a civil and logical fashion, and ignore the rest outright instead of trying to make them see sense. A lock on this thread is no guarantee that the ones determined to start a fight won't just start a fight elsewhere on the site. After all, this thread exists to keep the Robotech-related malarkey confined to one part of the site. The only problem there, Tak, is "what do we accomplish"? We go there, they ban us... They come here, we ban them... The only real difference is that in the beginning, when we ban them, its because they were actually breaking a rule...Not voicing an opinion that the Admins/Mods dont like, and thus "whack-a-ban" for. There's just no point in dealing with the vast majority that is Robotech's fanbase. So long as we don't sink to their level, I'm happy. Let them come here if they want... we'll give them plenty of rope and if they choose to hang themselves with it rather than make something useful of it, that's their own business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 So long as we don't sink to their level, I'm happy. Let them come here if they want... we'll give them plenty of rope and if they choose to hang themselves with it rather than make something useful of it, that's their own business. Naah, its bad enough to listen to them acting like they know everything in their own forums, to have them come here and try to treat us like absolute idiots with their lies and disrespect is unacceptable. In my opinion at least. Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Train Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Guys.... we are winning the war! (According to the Skynet, aka Google) Macross v Robotech Google Fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonc Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I'm not sure if simply locking the thread is really going to help anything, either. As for the thread needing to cool down, I think what needs to cool down is the real antagonists coming in here spilling misinformation, ignorance, and sheer stupidity. It seems that the only time they come here is to simply start arguments that make no sense, and can't argue with any sense of logic. The group try to post logical arguments, and like little dougieboy said, he doesn't care about logical arguments. So, why should they be here, if only to troll and disrupt things. We've made our points, have shown all the facts, and have proven (AGAIN) that we're right. So, I say we keep the thread going, and mods either decide to ban those that are causing the trouble, or let them be, and let them continue providing the comedy we get. Here's the "issues" that have caused all the mods to jump in here, and I think it should be weighed on what to do with it. -dougbendo: Has only come in here to troll and basically trash the site itself. Any argument he's made has no real ground, and the fact that he openly doesn't care about listening to counter arguments proves that he is just here to troll and cause trouble Maverick LSC, well, I haven't seen him post as much, but the only time he did, it was deleted, then, right after deletion, he posted it again. I've usually seen people banned for doing this, and while he maybe a mod at rt.com, someone in that type of status should know what that weighs on a discussion board. I don't know if he should be banned or not, cause other than that, he doesn't posts at all, just lurks, so enough with that. Memodominion, Memo, I hate to throw under the bus, cause I know him, and outside of the politics and stuff, he's a really nice guy, but I gotta call it as I see it. The whole debate about licensing has been going on for how long now, and while Memo should be allowed to debate the issue, it seems more now that the questions he asks, and the things he grabs onto, are not really to debate, but more to simply start trouble here. Especially when he's ignored what multiple people have written on the subject, and randomly posts, avoiding the facts, and just writing his own opinions with no real facts. Now, should they all be banned??? I don't know. That's not my job here. However, when you get to the reason why all the mods have had to jump in here, it's mainly due to trouble caused by these listed above. I'd like to welcome these 3 to debate in a civil, logical manner that includes listening to all sides of the argument, but so far, the evidence of what they're capable of has proven otherwise, and perhaps the mods need to address the real heart of the problem, not the thread outright. I'd rather have this thread up and keep it all here, than lock this thread, and have this debate run rampant across the entire board, like what almost happened in the MWcon 09 thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I'm not sure if simply locking the thread is really going to help anything, either. As for the thread needing to cool down, I think what needs to cool down is the real antagonists coming in here spilling misinformation, ignorance, and sheer stupidity. It seems that the only time they come here is to simply start arguments that make no sense, and can't argue with any sense of logic. The group try to post logical arguments, and like little dougieboy said, he doesn't care about logical arguments. So, why should they be here, if only to troll and disrupt things. Simple answer is to look no further then the latest thread in the Robotech.com Warzone... A thread there, which had been given its blessing by The Admin (*stab him in the heart with a wooden stake*), Has basicly turned into a thread for the Mods (mentioned in the above post) to ban-off any Macross Fans who voice an opinion or correction to the idiocracy running rampant in said thread. Going so far as MEMO allowing Bendover's new account (Orguss_Prime) to post previously bannable material, and getting away with it. With this open display of banning Macross Fans, is it any wonder they come here to cause trouble? We should, ofcourse, laugh at their stupidity in their forgetting that they DON'T possess any power here, and their words are worth less then the ramblings of madmen... Ofcourse, prove me wrong, Trollmongers! Give Ryu his posting priv's back, MEMO &/or Mav... ...Since, y'know, you've banned the rest of us from making intelligent corrections to those people's obvious dillusions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This all could have been settled in a game of MechWarrior 5 but we all know what happened to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonc Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Simple answer is to look no further then the latest thread in the Robotech.com Warzone... A thread there, which had been given its blessing by The Admin (*stab him in the heart with a wooden stake*), Has basicly turned into a thread for the Mods (mentioned in the above post) to ban-off any Macross Fans who voice an opinion or correction to the idiocracy running rampant in said thread. Going so far as MEMO allowing Bendover's new account (Orguss_Prime) to post previously bannable material, and getting away with it. With this open display of banning Macross Fans, is it any wonder they come here to cause trouble? We should, ofcourse, laugh at their stupidity in their forgetting that they DON'T possess any power here, and their words are worth less then the ramblings of madmen... See, the sad thing, is that nobody will address that here (speaking of those from rt.com. They'll act as if they never read it, and claim ignorance yet again. But that's HG's MO for avoiding the issues, and that is how their more voicestrous fans skirt the issues...They answer the questions, totally avoiding the real issues in order to save some face. And it's true...they have only come here and just cause trouble. If it was rear debate with some substance, that'd be great. I'd welcome that with open arms (figuratively). However, it's not like that. They make a statement, and argument, and it's countered. Then they make another statement, avoiding what was said to counter. It's usually evidence of a lost argument, and they do it everytime. I'm glad the thread has cooled down a bit, and hope that it continues to do so. Robotech and Macross fans should spend more time enjoying their perspective shows, not engaging in fruitless politics that lead up to hurt feelings. Open debate is good when both sides can understand each other, but here, it's been an argument from RT side that makes no sense, and their refusal to understand the sides here. A surefire formula to lead to disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I hate having to admit that some people are hopeless. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) Let's be cynical about the whole situation; whatever fond memories and nostalgia people have about Robotech, HG doesn't really give a crap. They just want money from anyone for doing very little with a franchise they claim they have control over. If they have to rely on very defensive fans to keep it going online, it's not much of a loss. It's the real public out there that their operation is going for. The joe six packs. They're doing it for the money, that's all I'm saying. They really don't have a story to tell at all, but people still want to believe. And they're willing to pay a lot for it. Edited December 15, 2009 by Einherjar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 They're doing it for the money, that's all I'm saying. They really don't have a story to tell at all, but people still want to believe. And they're willing to pay a lot for it. If that were the case they wouldn't have left the fans of RT in limbo so many times and for so long. When M+ came out and saw that everyone liked it they worked on getting more product over instead of saying We want for M+ even though we didn't do anything to help with production. So I dont think they're in it for the money at all just the prestige or lack there of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robelwell202 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I can't say, for certain, what HG is in it for, really. Their production and management practices have been either comically bad, or downright dispicible in some cases, and they've burned a lot of people who'd tried to put thier best effort into fruthering the franchise the best way they can. I'm sure that there's a financial goal, somwhere, but they do everything the exact opposite of what common sense would dictate, so thier revenues are still extremely small. It makes me wonder what they use to pay Kevin McKeever's salary... I can't see Hrmony Gold as an animation production company, because they've tried too damn hard, with the wrong ideas, to be that. Trying to force some current relevancy out of a legacy cartoon from the '80s is a delicate job, and so far, HG hasn't been too delicate. Most of the stuff they've done since the release of the original 85 have met with everything from mixed reviews to outright hatred and disgust. "The Sentinels" could have been a good extension, if they'd followed through with it, but in standard HG style, they let the novels get carried away,and hense, you get the patented convoluted storyline with many, amny fans scratching thier heads, screaming WTF?!? Then, you have every production after this, and they've begun a spectacular series of EPIC PHAIL (To use a common internet term). RT-3000, Prelude, Untold Story, and RT:TSC have all been amazing flops, and it's a track record that goes back a long way. Finally, thier stranglehold on Macross isn't netting them anything except greif. We could be wandering into the local hobby shop, picking up a nice toy, figure, or model, and HG would be getting a little piece of the pie, but... Instead, they refuse to budge, and refuse to accept the humility that goes with trying to reach some kind of amicable arrangement with the powers that be in Japan. Now, with all these factors, is it any wonder that there's a severe amount of doubt as far as the LAM is concerned? I've been on record MANY times, saying that I'll believe there's an RT:LAM when I see it at the theaters, and not before. Others have said the same thing. Of course, you have the types like ol' Kevie, who insists on saying "There's been a MAJOR DEVELOPMENT (but I can't talk about it).", and there are those fans who eat it up with a spoon. Then, you get the fans like me, who are extremely skeptical over the idea, and we get anned from thier site for speaking our skepticism openly. I can't really say weather HG is in it for the money, or if they're trying to eek out somme kind of prestige out of the franchise. All I can say is, they've got themselves on hell of a mess, and I think the management should be changed... ASAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I can't say, for certain, what HG is in it for, really. Their production and management practices have been either comically bad, or downright dispicible in some cases, and they've burned a lot of people who'd tried to put thier best effort into fruthering the franchise the best way they can. I'm sure that there's a financial goal, somwhere, but they do everything the exact opposite of what common sense would dictate, so thier revenues are still extremely small. It makes me wonder what they use to pay Kevin McKeever's salary... I can't see Hrmony Gold as an animation production company, because they've tried too damn hard, with the wrong ideas, to be that. Trying to force some current relevancy out of a legacy cartoon from the '80s is a delicate job, and so far, HG hasn't been too delicate. Most of the stuff they've done since the release of the original 85 have met with everything from mixed reviews to outright hatred and disgust. "The Sentinels" could have been a good extension, if they'd followed through with it, but in standard HG style, they let the novels get carried away,and hense, you get the patented convoluted storyline with many, amny fans scratching thier heads, screaming WTF?!? I get the feeling that Sentinels (the animated version) is well-loved BECAUSE it wasn't finished. For some reason, a lot of Robotech fans seem to really like the "interactivity" inherent in all the plot holes and uncompleted sequels to Robotech, and enjoy filling in the gaps through fan-speculation. As such, any incomplete venture becomes a depository for whatever the fan would have liked to see in the production. I guarantee that, had the Sentinels been completed, it would only be about as well-liked as Shadow Chronicles, or maybe even less: the outlines presented in Robotech Art III were...erm...less than compelling. Then, you have every production after this, and they've begun a spectacular series of EPIC PHAIL (To use a common internet term). RT-3000, Prelude, Untold Story, and RT:TSC have all been amazing flops, and it's a track record that goes back a long way. It's almost funny, isn't it? So many sequels, so many failures. Even Shadow Chronicles still ended on a cliffhanger, so it too remains incomplete... Finally, thier stranglehold on Macross isn't netting them anything except greif. We could be wandering into the local hobby shop, picking up a nice toy, figure, or model, and HG would be getting a little piece of the pie, but... Instead, they refuse to budge, and refuse to accept the humility that goes with trying to reach some kind of amicable arrangement with the powers that be in Japan. I think the only "amicable arrangement" would be for HG to step aside completely. Certainly, I'd imagine that trademarking the name is winning them no friends in Japan. Now, with all these factors, is it any wonder that there's a severe amount of doubt as far as the LAM is concerned? Ah, but you see, the movie will be done by WARNER BROTHERS. And it'll be like HARRY POTTER and BATMAN. And Paramount is TERRIFIED! I've been on record MANY times, saying that I'll believe there's an RT:LAM when I see it at the theaters, and not before. Others have said the same thing. Of course, you have the types like ol' Kevie, who insists on saying "There's been a MAJOR DEVELOPMENT (but I can't talk about it).", and there are those fans who eat it up with a spoon. Then, you get the fans like me, who are extremely skeptical over the idea, and we get anned from thier site for speaking our skepticism openly. I can't really say weather HG is in it for the money, or if they're trying to eek out somme kind of prestige out of the franchise. All I can say is, they've got themselves on hell of a mess, and I think the management should be changed... ASAP I kind of like the management there right now...but then, I don't like Robotech, and I kind of wish it would cease to be a viable future enterprise. In other words, if no one produces any future Robotech series, movies, books, comics, what have you, that's fine with me. As such, I think Harmony Gold is doing a GREAT JOB with the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einherjar Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) If that were the case they wouldn't have left the fans of RT in limbo so many times and for so long. When M+ came out and saw that everyone liked it they worked on getting more product over instead of saying We want for M+ even though we didn't do anything to help with production. So I dont think they're in it for the money at all just the prestige or lack there of. (Being cynical here) Even if they were enthusiastic about contributing to the release Macross related products at one time, they may have seen the error of thinking that way. It sounds good in the short run, but it could have caused problems later on. They had a franchise that would potentially be in danger if something similar or a challenger, at least to the audiences they're entertaining, came around putting more effort into a production. Also, they would be getting less money if they really let that happen because they would have to share a lot of it, and then some credibility stuff too. On the talent side too, they were very much outmatched if BW and company planned to make sequels on a regular basis and were free to sell it around the world. Pretty much I'm thinking what is happening now with HG, but occurring sooner and being more apparent to the general public without the attempts of blacking out information. Edited December 15, 2009 by Einherjar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bri Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) Finally, thier stranglehold on Macross isn't netting them anything except greif. We could be wandering into the local hobby shop, picking up a nice toy, figure, or model, and HG would be getting a little piece of the pie, but... Instead, they refuse to budge, and refuse to accept the humility that goes with trying to reach some kind of amicable arrangement with the powers that be in Japan. It was actually a pretty clever move at the time, trademarking Macross. In hindsight HG could not have known that internet sales directly from Japan to individuals would have taken off so much. Harmony Gold appears to be extremly protective of the merchandising part of their license given their legal action against FASA and sending cease and desist letters to importers of Macross merchandise. I'm tempted to say that this was the main reason behind them trademarking the Macross name. HG would not get any income from toys made for the Japanese market who are then exported based as their sublicense excludes the Japanese market. Speculating further, I would bet that HG isn't even interested in licensing further Macross shows, given that they ignored Plus and MII, and that their partner Tats(who has to renew the SDFM license every few years according to Yune) would not be to pleased with HG getting friendly with BW. It would be interesting to know if HG has to pay Tats a fixed amount for the license or that Tats is entitled to part of the revenue from SDFM sold internationally and RT. Edited December 15, 2009 by Bri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uxi Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I don't think we can speak for BW, but I'm sure US Renditions and Manga Entertainment were doing the "WTH is this *bleep*"-reaction. But I think Seto is closer to the mark, BW and Bandai probably don't see much $$$ coming their way if they go international. Legal stuff would probably be the least of their concerns. Return investment is probably the overriding issue to legal woes. Frontier probably didn't help itself by including music from SDFM, DYRL?, and 7. Even if it was just a few songs, that's still royalties. And with things as they are with the recession, I'm sure pulling money for licensing is tight enough as it is. I dunno... Doesn't seem like the investment should be very high since all the animation is already done. For the music, the most likely answer would be to get "Reba West" style replacement music, if the international rights to the original music proved too hairy. I definitely think it's gotta be more a matter of Big West either saying "f' that, they didn't pay for any of this, they ain't gonna get nothing!" or Harmony Gold being too greedy ("pay? We should get that free since we own all sequels anyway!"). No doubt, HG should pay SOMETHING to offset production costs if they want to reap any benefit from it, but given the increasing age of all this stuff, and the prevalence of easy downloads of most of the Japanese stuff, really diminishing returns for the catalog stuff. But for a new production should be far more feasible... if both sides want to, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWolf Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (Being cynical here) Even if they were enthusiastic about contributing to the release Macross related products at one time, they may have seen the error of thinking that way. It sounds good in the short run, but it could have caused problems later on. They had a franchise that would potentially be in danger if something similar or a challenger, at least to the audiences they're entertaining, came around putting more effort into a production. Also, they would be getting less money if they really let that happen because they would have to share a lot of it, and then some credibility stuff too. On the talent side too, they were very much outmatched if BW and company planned to make sequels on a regular basis and were free to sell it around the world. Pretty much I'm thinking what is happening now with HG, but occurring sooner and being more apparent to the general public without the attempts of blacking out information. http://www.ripoffreport.com/convention-cen...dy-bu-az8f9.htm Yeah they've been there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastaEgg Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'm surprised Godwin's Law hasn't taken effect here yet. Especially given all the terrible things that Harmony Gold has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seto Kaiba Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'm surprised Godwin's Law hasn't taken effect here yet. Especially given all the terrible things that Harmony Gold has done. If you consider the scope of the larger debate, it already has... several times, albeit not quite in the way you're expecting. For a while there, the belligerent and overly-defensive in the Robotech fandom were finding all sorts of colorful ways they could call people with dissenting opinions "Nazis". I remember back before I got banned from RT.com I was hounded across the boards by this one guy who apparently took umbrage when he posted his own take on what the Robotech continuity should look like in someone else's timeline question and I politely pointed out that there was already an official continuity and that the handful of unrelated "real robot" shows he'd worked into his take on the timeline had no business being there because they had nothing to do with Robotech, which was apparently news to him. So of course, he hounded me across the boards for like two weeks calling me a "posting Nazi" and all sorts of other amusing permutations on "<something> Nazi" until people started telling him to STFU. I've heard a fair few comparisons drawn between the administration stylings of Steve Yun, Tommy Yune, and Kevin McKeever and those of Joseph Stalin... particularly in terms of their philosophy that "man is the root of all problems, get rid of the man, get rid of the problem", but no Nazi parallels drawn yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I'm surprised Godwin's Law hasn't taken effect here yet. Especially given all the terrible things that Harmony Gold has done. Between my current avatar and this post, I thought that I had already dealt with this serious issue. ;) Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I've heard a fair few comparisons drawn between the administration stylings of Steve Yun, Tommy Yune, and Kevin McKeever and those of Joseph Stalin... particularly in terms of their philosophy that "man is the root of all problems, get rid of the man, get rid of the problem", but no Nazi parallels drawn yet. Stalin??? I thought the general concensus of the Admin's of RT.com was that of the "Galactic Empire" of Star Wars? "Darth Yun" says it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkenstein Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 RT.com is more like Animal Farm. The slow and witless get eaten up by the cruel and stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltane70 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Simple answer is to look no further then the latest thread in the Robotech.com Warzone... A thread there, which had been given its blessing by The Admin (*stab him in the heart with a wooden stake*), Has basicly turned into a thread for the Mods (mentioned in the above post) to ban-off any Macross Fans who voice an opinion or correction to the idiocracy running rampant in said thread. Going so far as MEMO allowing Bendover's new account (Orguss_Prime) to post previously bannable material, and getting away with it. With this open display of banning Macross Fans, is it any wonder they come here to cause trouble? We should, ofcourse, laugh at their stupidity in their forgetting that they DON'T possess any power here, and their words are worth less then the ramblings of madmen... Ofcourse, prove me wrong, Trollmongers! Give Ryu his posting priv's back, MEMO &/or Mav... ...Since, y'know, you've banned the rest of us from making intelligent corrections to those people's obvious dillusions... Well, I haven't been banned yet, and I'm the current one arguing with notdougbendo about his claims that the VF-1 is superior to a VF-11. I've been told to drop the subject by Murdock (I forget his full name at the moment). Of course, after I was told to drop the subject, notdougbendo posts his response on how the animation in Macross 7 supposedly proves his claims despite the fact that original source material says otherwise. I'm currently debating with myself whether to actually drop it or reply anyway. Either way, notdougbendo will probably claim some kind of victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well, I haven't been banned yet, and I'm the current one arguing with notdougbendo about his claims that the VF-1 is superior to a VF-11. I've been told to drop the subject by Murdock (I forget his full name at the moment). Of course, after I was told to drop the subject, notdougbendo posts his response on how the animation in Macross 7 supposedly proves his claims despite the fact that original source material says otherwise. I'm currently debating with myself whether to actually drop it or reply anyway. Either way, notdougbendo will probably claim some kind of victory. Was it you who rumbled Orguss_Prime as dougbendo? It was really funny when it happened because as soon as he denied it he either started to take care with his spelling and grammar or ran a spellchecker as one way of showing that it was NOT dougbendo. (Who has some of the worst spelling and grammar that I have ever seen. Must be "robotech style") On the more relevant topic..... I think that part of HG's reasoning when it comes to stuffing around Macross is that if they gave up the copyright on Macross, or allowed its release and distribution by others, a lot of hardcore RT fans would see it as HG "selling out" robotech. Its a wonder that they just don't blame Macross (in a comparison to Goldstein or Snowball, there you go, more Orwellian references) for all of Robotech's "problems". Taksraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraphys Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Well, I haven't been banned yet, and I'm the current one arguing with notdougbendo about his claims that the VF-1 is superior to a VF-11. I've been told to drop the subject by Murdock (I forget his full name at the moment). Goldie...nice guy...very funny... apparently British, which is probably why i like him Of course, after I was told to drop the subject, notdougbendo posts his response on how the animation in Macross 7 supposedly proves his claims despite the fact that original source material says otherwise. I'm currently debating with myself whether to actually drop it or reply anyway. Either way, notdougbendo will probably claim some kind of victory. Well, ofcourse he will...They ALWAYS do that. Its especially fun when the little douchebag's the proceed to FLAME YOU AFTER A mod has come and banned you, and they get off scott-free *cough*Jeebers*cough*...There should probably actually be some other names there, but, whatever... My advice, And several people will probably tell you NOT too listen...Post. I assume you can control your aggression better then I, and with any luck, you can get NotDoughBendo to properly break a rule and get him banned from RT.com, again... Go on, follow in my foot-steps...but do a better job then I did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltane70 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Was it you who rumbled Orguss_Prime as dougbendo? It was really funny when it happened because as soon as he denied it he either started to take care with his spelling and grammar or ran a spellchecker as one way of showing that it was NOT dougbendo. (Who has some of the worst spelling and grammar that I have ever seen. Must be "robotech style") No, that wasn't me. That was a user by the name of RyuHayabusa. He's been banned by Mav for trolling. Capt. GM Murdock was the one that suggested that I drop it since I would probably not be able to get a point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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