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David Hingtgen

Bandai 1/60 DX VF-25 transformable toy thread

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it's no surprise, bandai has always been chunky. look at their ghastly M7 valks.

:rolleyes:

Yes, because as we all know one specific example from more than 10 years ago means that all products (including current ones) of a manufacturer are like that...

/sarcasm

There's a difference in making a collector's grade toy that will be transformed many times, and a model kit that is made to look nice on the shelf and where the transformation is an additional gimmick.

So it's likely that the TOY will be chunkier than the MODEL.

Then, saying that Bandai doesn't know how to make good-looking and accurate toys is disregarding all of SoC, many transformable Gundam action figures, stuff like Saint Seiya Saint Cloth Myth, and many many other toys.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of the length at which some Yamato-fanboys go to discredit any company that is not their all-time favourite money-sink. What's next? "Bandai is using LIVE BABIES for the production of the Macross Frontier Valks! Boycot them!" or "The paint on the 1/60 Valk is made using extracts from FLUFFY LITTLE BUNNIES! Burn the Bandai factories to the ground!"? :blink:

I'm by no means a Bandai fanboi, but some of the statements made on these boards are bordering on the ridiculous.

*wonders how much of the "It's too fat"-whine is caused by the dark space background taking away details and making the Valks seem thinner in most action scenes in the MF anime*

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yamato fanboy or not.... the toy still looks off

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bleh, posted a rant, thought better of it.

Edited by eugimon

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The shoulders look just like the CGI model to me. I guess I'm just not good at finding the flaws in everything. :rolleyes:

Patience young padawan. After owning like 25-30 mecha you tend to see these things easier. ;)

:rolleyes:

Yes, because as we all know one specific example from more than 10 years ago means that all products (including current ones) of a manufacturer are like that...

/sarcasm

<tl;dr>

Oh so the said USD100 ++ "toy" is not collector's grade? I agree with you, but i really think they meant to sell those to collectors with that kinda price range.

/semi-sarcasm

Then, saying that Bandai doesn't know how to make good-looking and accurate toys is disregarding all of SoC, many transformable Gundam action figures, stuff like Saint Seiya Saint Cloth Myth, and many many other toys.

Gundam/SOC/SS...is their money pot....so duh they do it good. For every 1 toyline Bandai does well, there are 5 bad ones so I don't really blame ppl for having reservations....and btw how did the conversation become another Bandai VS Yamato thing again?

Edited by wolfx

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Thats because it doesn't take perfect transformation into account.

The white paint on the Alto prototype is glaring, we need ultraviolent purple tint or even some grey. I at least want to see the final prototype in color by next month.

I don't see why they can't make the 1/60 look as good or better than the 1/72. I mean it should be easy since it's at a larger scale. Can't they just take the sculpt of the 1/72, scale it up and add the necessary detail and reinforcements to it? I hope the final one looks just as good if not better than the 1/72.

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I don't see why they can't make the 1/60 look as good or better than the 1/72. I mean it should be easy since it's at a larger scale. Can't they just take the sculpt of the 1/72, scale it up and add the necessary detail and reinforcements to it? I hope the final one looks just as good if not better than the 1/72.

For the price point it better look hotter than the 1/72. Again I will reserve judgment until the final production model is shown. I'm happy that bandai continues to refine the sculpt making the battloid thinner and thinner. However those arms and shoulders are looking really out of proportion at the moment. Fighter mode looks beautiful and just needs a clear canopy and some more panel lines.

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:rolleyes:

Yes, because as we all know one specific example from more than 10 years ago means that all products (including current ones) of a manufacturer are like that...

/sarcasm

There's a difference in making a collector's grade toy that will be transformed many times, and a model kit that is made to look nice on the shelf and where the transformation is an additional gimmick.

So it's likely that the TOY will be chunkier than the MODEL.

Then, saying that Bandai doesn't know how to make good-looking and accurate toys is disregarding all of SoC, many transformable Gundam action figures, stuff like Saint Seiya Saint Cloth Myth, and many many other toys.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of the length at which some Yamato-fanboys go to discredit any company that is not their all-time favourite money-sink. What's next? "Bandai is using LIVE BABIES for the production of the Macross Frontier Valks! Boycot them!" or "The paint on the 1/60 Valk is made using extracts from FLUFFY LITTLE BUNNIES! Burn the Bandai factories to the ground!"? :blink:

I'm by no means a Bandai fanboi, but some of the statements made on these boards are bordering on the ridiculous.

*wonders how much of the "It's too fat"-whine is caused by the dark space background taking away details and making the Valks seem thinner in most action scenes in the MF anime*

The problem is, that transformable Gundam, SoC, ect....while the toys may be complex and accurate to there anime counterpart the DESIGN is still blocky(at least vehical mode) and IMO ugly. People keep bringing up Bandai's SoC line as an example of how great they are, but when I look them the vehicle's are totaly uninspiring, frankly I don't get why they choose that as they example of how good they are....they look like transformers, and that is not a good thing . Valks are supposed to be sleek and streemlined. So good for Bandai if they can make and accurate robot that turns into a block with wings, but that's not what Macross is about. I have nothing against Bandai, but IMO their track record with Macross isn't that good. THAT's what we are complaining about.

Chris

Edited by Dobber

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I own a number of Saint Cloth Myth figures. They're awesome figures. Bandai can produce some really awesome stuff. They also produce some not so awesome stuff.

Regardless of how the Macross 7 toys came out as chunky pieces of crap 10 years ago, the VF-25 is still looking inappropriately chunky. They are not making it to their bar of standards that they've established with the awesome things they can do. And that is without taking into consideration the standards that Yamato has set with valkyrie toys.

With the number of scenes taking place in atmosphere and with the number of magazine articles showing of the VF-25, I wouldn't say that the thinness we expect is due to the blackness of space making the VF-25 look thin. Especially when you consider that in most space scenes they're using Super Packs, which beef them up. The VF-25 should be anorexic looking in battroid. Bandai = not doing it right. :p

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<!--quoteo(post=650644:date=Aug 31 2008, 09:53 AM:name=Sumdumgai)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sumdumgai @ Aug 31 2008, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=650644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regardless of how the Macross 7 toys came out as chunky pieces of crap 10 years ago, the VF-25 is still looking inappropriately chunky. They are not making it to their bar of standards that they've established with the awesome things they can do. And that is without taking into consideration the standards that Yamato has set with valkyrie toys.

With the number of scenes taking place in atmosphere and with the number of magazine articles showing of the VF-25, I wouldn't say that the thinness we expect is due to the blackness of space making the VF-25 look thin. Especially when you consider that in most space scenes they're using Super Packs, which beef them up. The VF-25 should be anorexic looking in battroid. Bandai = not doing it right. <img src="http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

FTW! IT's not that they're clueless to the slender aspect of that valk. Look at the 1/100. You'd think with the bigger scale they'd be able to tool it more correctly. it's the chunky monkey frontier style. I'll wait for ver. 2

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I don't see why they can't make the 1/60 look as good or better than the 1/72. I mean it should be easy since it's at a larger scale. Can't they just take the sculpt of the 1/72, scale it up and add the necessary detail and reinforcements to it? I hope the final one looks just as good if not better than the 1/72.

While I'll agree that they can definitely make it look better, you are comparing a perfect transformation toy to a model kit. The more appropriate comparison would be the 1/100 toy to the 1/72 kit. The larger scale does make everything easier as there is more room to work with, but adding perfect transformation requirements to the mix, as well as making sure the material is durable enough, then dealing with the tolerances of the material, all make it harder for something that is perfect transformation to look better than a parts swapformer. What you are asking for, is very similar to what Toynami did when they based their MPC Alpha off of the 1/48 Aoshima Legioss model, except the size increase. That was a disaster. Designing a toy is much different than designing a model, so I think what Bandai did, starting from scratch on the toy, rather than using their model as a base, was better.

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Well what about comparing it to Yamato's SV-51? Which is pretty close to how slender it is. Yamato's later valks shows how a VF toy should be done. I think the Bandai 1/60 fellas are watching a whole other anime.

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Are we all forgetting that Shoji Kawamori himself is supervising the sculpts on these toys?

I think it's important to reserve some judgment as to why the toy looks the way it does.

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ummm... I don't think you can reserve judgement... I mean someone posted a picture and all we can do is judge. Now you can tell me to STFU and it's up to me to listen but I don't think anyone can "reserve judgement". That's like for a more or less for criminal trials where I have no idea what happened in the crime scene. But here... it's a pic. Honestly, if it turns out better in the final stages, then I get to post... "OMG, that's a lot better than in the proto stages!" but here and now those pics look nothing like the cartoon, models, other toys, line art and what else have you.

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ummm... I don't think you can reserve judgement... I mean someone posted a picture and all we can do is judge. Now you can tell me to STFU and it's up to me to listen but I don't think anyone can "reserve judgement". That's like for a more or less for criminal trials where I have no idea what happened in the crime scene. But here... it's a pic. Honestly, if it turns out better in the final stages, then I get to post... "OMG, that's a lot better than in the proto stages!" but here and now those pics look nothing like the cartoon, models, other toys, line art and what else have you.

I did include the word "some". ;)

I think it is important to reserve "some" judgment because too often folks tend to add baseless claims (such as Bandai only being able to create chunky toys).

Edited by Vifam7

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ummm... I don't think you can reserve judgement... I mean someone posted a picture and all we can do is judge. Now you can tell me to STFU and it's up to me to listen but I don't think anyone can "reserve judgement". That's like for a more or less for criminal trials where I have no idea what happened in the crime scene. But here... it's a pic. Honestly, if it turns out better in the final stages, then I get to post... "OMG, that's a lot better than in the proto stages!" but here and now those pics look nothing like the cartoon, models, other toys, line art and what else have you.

Exo continues to be the rockin'est mod ever.

Seriously, reserve judgment why? We have a f*cking picture. Or is this some item that magically shape-shifts whenever a camera is pointed at it?

Also, Shoji can approve whatever he wants. It doesn't mean it's perfect.

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Shoji can approve whatever he wants. It doesn't mean it's perfect.

Quoted for absolute TRUTH.

Because not everyone is willing to live with the same compromises that he is. For ME, as long as the fighter mode is reasonably anime accurate, I can live with how ever that ends up making Battroid and Gerwalk appear.

But not everyone is gonna feel the same way.

-Kyp

Edited by Kyp Durron

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I guess I'm an idiot 'cause I don't really see the chunky-ness. Maybe I haven't seen enought of the "naked" -25 in MacF to have it comitted to memory.

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vf-25s-battroid.jpg061.jpg

Apologies to Mr March for sucking his bandwidth.

My biggest complaint is that the intakes sit too high and the crotch piece is too big.

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Well what about comparing it to Yamato's SV-51? Which is pretty close to how slender it is. Yamato's later valks shows how a VF toy should be done. I think the Bandai 1/60 fellas are watching a whole other anime.

Yeah, but the SV-51 does not invite you to pose it a lot. It's slenderness is there to show how pretty and perfect it is but not to touch it unless you have the patience to have the chest unlock, the weight balance get in the way and the fast packs popping off. If I can play with the DX and pose it like I do a 1/48 or even better, then its total win for me.

Shouldn't this thing be judged first for it's fighter mode like the Yamatos? The YF-21 is gorgeous in fighter but really, I put my GN-U YF-21 and my 1/60 side by side and the big one’s battroid mode looks like it come from a weird distorted dimension. No one is saying that Yamato can’t design a valk for that, but still, the 1/60 Batroid is far from "line art accurate". And while your at it, the 1/60 19 isn’t line art accurate either (where are it’s chunky legs?).

Do the Yamato GN-U's look like the 1/60 or the 1/200? No. They are different takes on the same designs by the same company with a different goal in mind (line art accurate action figure, PT, display piece). Same way as Gundam designs from different toy lines (MG kit, HCM-Pro, MSIA……..) will look slightly different from each other.

Bandai has gone the way of three lines with different goals: One that is a sturdy PT toy (the "chunky”); one that is skinny and PT minus the landing gear (the model kit) and one that incorporates the two giving us a partsformer that so far looks good in proto and has pretty good chances of become a fun little toy since it doesn't worry about PT.

Edited by Twoducks

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The difference is that the 21 and 19 were hand animated and the animators freely distorted the proportions for each mode. The SV-51 and the VF-25 have CG models... one company produced a toy that was very faithful to what we saw on screen and another company is producing a toy that only resembles it's anime counterpart.

And you have no idea if the Dx is sturdy or not.

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The difference is that the 21 and 19 were hand animated and the animators freely distorted the proportions for each mode.

You have Kawamori "official line art" for them; the same line art people cited when talking about their plane modes. Neither the 21 nor the 19 look like it in battroid mode. A selling point of the GN-U's is "line art accurate". As I said, different objectives different looking products.

The SV-51 and the VF-25 have CG models... one company produced a toy that was very faithful to what we saw on screen and another company is producing a toy that only resembles it's anime counterpart.

Yes, faithful, which was Yamato’s objective. Said objective has its own draw backs; those being a fragile/unstable toy more aching to a very durable model kit, or a “collector display piece” as some people like to call the Yamatos in MW. The 1/48 is a more solid design so it can still feel like a toy.

Bandai is already doing a thinner looking product: the model kit. They are also making two "toys", two transforming toys to be exact. One PT made to last and another line art accurate to play thanks to getting rid of the complexities of PT. See, different objectives, different looking products.

And you have no idea if the Dx is sturdy or not.

Actually, I do have an idea:

Along that line of thinking:

One of the many articles I've google-translated from the Chara Hobby show said something along the lines of "The 1/100 is supposed to be line-accurate, while the 1/60 is designed to look like a sturdy typical Chogokin". Honestly, with how fat the 1/60 is looking lately, I wouldn't be surprised if Bandai purposely is making it chunky like the 1/55. Which would suck, as the VF-25 is the skinniest valk ever and is DEFINED by how thin it is compared to others. I mean, we've seen the 1/100 and 1/72, there is NO need to have legs that thick on the 1/60.

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=650485

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I gotta say after looking at the comparison pics, I think the main problem is that the legs are sitting too high on the crotch piece. I if the top of the intakes would be even with the top of the crotch, I think the whole thing would look alot thinner... along with the head maybe being a little higher. The leg placement , though, is what is throwing off the overall look I'd say. Overall, IMO not too bad.

Chris

Edited by Dobber

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You have Kawamori "official line art" for them; the same line art people cited when talking about their plane modes. Neither the 21 nor the 19 look like it in battroid mode. A selling point of the GN-U's is "line art accurate". As I said, different objectives different looking products.

And kawamori's line art for the various modes have plenty of tweaking for each mode. You can't look at the line art for the yf-21 and be a reasonable person and think that the fighter mode is even remotely possible given what the battroid mode looks like, for instance. And you're missing my point entirely, you're comparing a hand drawn and animated figure versus a CG figure.

Yes, faithful, which was Yamato’s objective. Said objective has its own draw backs; those being a fragile/unstable toy more aching to a very durable model kit, or a “collector display piece” as some people like to call the Yamatos in MW. The 1/48 is a more solid design so it can still feel like a toy.

Bandai is already doing a thinner looking product: the model kit. They are also making two "toys", two transforming toys to be exact. One PT made to last and another line art accurate to play thanks to getting rid of the complexities of PT. See, different objectives, different looking products.

You can post all the conjecture you want on the why, but the DX does not look like the anime. When the first resin pictures were posted I said the proportions were off and I was told I had no idea what I was talking about and that the Bandai would produce something both slavishly faithful and sturdy... well, we're weeks away from the release date and those same proportion issues have not been resolved. The only major improvement over the first batch of shots and the current batch is that the canopy hinge has been hidden. The hips are still in the wrong place, the crotch is still way too big, and the entire upperbody is still wrong.

So, daivd's interpretation of a machine translated article gives you an idea of the build quality of a product that we haven't even seen a final material version of? It probably wil be built like a brick, it certainly looks like one.

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Actually, I do have an idea:

Along that line of thinking:

One of the many articles I've google-translated from the Chara Hobby show said something along the lines of "The 1/100 is supposed to be line-accurate, while the 1/60 is designed to look like a sturdy typical Chogokin". Honestly, with how fat the 1/60 is looking lately, I wouldn't be surprised if Bandai purposely is making it chunky like the 1/55.

You see. I can't argue if that's the purpose of the toy designer... at the same time people can't say that my complaint is untrue. As it stands Bandai didn't make a toy for me, I think it's OK for me to whine a little. I'm whining in the line of "awww shucks, not for me" and not "F U Bandai! You don't know how to make Macross toys!!!"

Kinda glad if I can skip on these. There's so much other stuff coming out.

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Man, I really should try to find that article again, if my memory of a translation is going to be used as a reference... :p

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I'll buy the 1/60, but I'm definitely not happy with how chunky the battroid looks at the moment.

It's interesting that we have yet to see a test shot in the production materials (ABS & Diecast). So far all pics have look like either unpainted resin or hand painted resin.

Possibly Bandai knows people are unhappy and may still make significant changes. Still, if they want to get this thing out by November, they will have to hurry.

I'd still love to see what Yamato could do with the VF-25 in 1/60 scale.

Graham

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I'd still love to see what Yamato could do with the VF-25 in 1/60 scale.

Graham

Yes, i was speaking to someone in Japan about how Yamato wanted the Frontier license really bad... I'd be happy if they did get it... but I'm still interested in what Bandai can do with the 1/60 line. The only reason I'm interested in the 1/100s is the possibility of all the valks in that line. Otherwise I would have skipped that too.

What's the deal with Bandai making the 1/100 VF-0? If Yamato was going to make it doesn't that mean they had the license? Did they lose the rights to that scale because they haven't released anything since the Koenig?

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I don't know, but I'm guessing that Yamato allowed the 1/100 licence to expire and chose not to renew it.

Yamato's main focus now for Macross is 1/60, GN-U and 1/200.

Bandai have the Frontier toy and model licence locked down solid for the next several years, as they were the major sponser of the show.

Graham

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The YF-19 and YF-21 as 1/60 scale toys are thin in all modes and look fairly good. The 1/60 VF-25 fighter mode looks decent, not incredibly chunky, though the legs are a bit big and look like they hang a bit low. The battroid mode still looks chunky, which is not a good look for something that's supposed to look anorexic.

If the reason it looks chunky is for keeping with the appearance of the chogokin line, to look chunky, then it's probably going to stay looking chunky unless there's enough complaints and they actually listen and do something about it. Doubtful though.

It's looking more and more that Bandai just isn't making the kind of Macross toys that I would put money down for. Chunky perfect-transformation toys, possibly partsformer valkyries, crappy looking gashapon... The trading figures have my interest though. :)

That bandai has the Frontier license locked down sucks. I'd love to see a Yamato 1/60 VF-25, because they've proven they can make good looking valkyries. Bandai's efforts in the 1/60 scale is less than impressive, and it seems purposefully so.

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I'm not counting out Bandai's 1/60 yet. I'm sure when we see a production standard version posed properly, it will look better. But at the moment, it's definitely got 'child bearing hips'. ...LOL :)

As it is, both the 1/72 scale model kit and 1/100 parts-former are looking better at this stage.

You would think that Bandai would have realised that with Yamato upping the bar on appearance in the past few years, most fans now want a toy that looks as anime accurate as possible, rather than something big and chunky and out of proportion, just cus' it's got the chogokin name tied to it.

Graham

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hmm...I still don't like the battroid anorexic design look since the start of Frontier, but damn, that chunky 1/60 looks fugly!!! Gerwalk appear to be very limited and fighters a bit off

I understand making a perfect transformation toy is HARD specially working with anime magic, but like previews posters have said, this is from a CG model and not hand drawn, it should be much easier to work around the anime magic although I really don't see much anime magic in the VF transformation

from what I've seen now, I don't like it, I hope Bandai can improve, they have the resources and I really want them to, but if this is going to be Yamato expensive 100+ toy and still look like that, then hell no, you're toy sucks and is not worth it

I can not reserve my judgment to comment on this but I will sure as hell reserve my money if they think they can please us with that chunky thing

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