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Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!


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So, going back & seguing from the discussion of Prometheus & Daedalus' sizes versus complement & such: when browsing the Northampton-class, ARMD-class, Guantanamo-class, & Uraga-class on the macross mecha manual, the variable mecha complement versus the dimensions & mass seem strange at first glance to me. At least they avoided re-encountering the crew complement issue, since none have it listed.

 

Nimitz-class
Dimensions: length 317 meters
Mass: standard operating displacement 102,000t
Air Wing: 86-ish

Prometheus-class
Dimensions: length 512 meters
Mass: standard operating displacement 456,000t
Variable Mecha: 150 x variable fighters

ARMD-class [film]
Dimensions: length 450 meters; width 220 meters
Mass: standard operating displacement 174,000 metric tons
Variable Mecha: 262 x VF-1 Valkyrie

Northampton-class
Dimensions: approximate length 250 meters
Mass: standard operational displacement 1,200 metric tons
Variable Mecha: approx 37 x variable fighters

Guantanamo-class
Dimensions: approximate length 400 meters
Mass: standard operational displacement 9,500 metric tons
Variable Mecha: approx. 40-50 variable craft

Uraga-class
Dimensions: approximate length 550 meters
Mass: standard operational displacement 25,000 metric tons
Variable Mecha: approx. 65-75 variable craft

 

Even accounting for the VF size differences over the generations, does the ship structural & composition differences account for enough of the discrepancies? Mass-wise for the last three, perhaps it goes without saying in Macross, but overtechnology really outdid itself, as happened with the mecha.

The ARMD-class seems to jive as an space equivalent of a modern upsized supercarrier with only small fighters. But the Northampton-class versus the Guantanamo-class & Uraga-class are just wow.

The Guantanamo-class versus the Uraga-class seems to make sense - a modest increase in mecha complement, an extra launching deck, stealth technologies, & probably more consumables for longer endurance without resupply. Perhaps more consumables than anything else given the mass increase versus dimensions & mecha complement.

But the Northampton-class.... What's going on there? It makes sense that the listed production number is 9,000 because, wow, no need to build anything else. Its dimensions & mass versus its mecha complement, shape, & even having stealth technologies is amazing.

It is possible to ditch enough consumables & facilities to achieve this? Or perhaps there's criteria I'm not recognizing?

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41 minutes ago, marthf1 said:

Even accounting for the VF size differences over the generations, does the ship structural & composition differences account for enough of the discrepancies? Mass-wise for the last three, perhaps it goes without saying in Macross, but overtechnology really outdid itself, as happened with the mecha.

There is some unintended distortion imposed by the Macross Mecha Manual's writeup of the Northampton-class, which cites an unusual/emergency operating condition instead of its normal operating condition.

Also, some of the discrepancy is attributable to those older carrier classes using a greater proportion of conventional (pre-OTM) materials and being much less efficient designs which were intended for orbit-based planetary defense rather than high endurance deep space operations.

 

41 minutes ago, marthf1 said:

The Guantanamo-class versus the Uraga-class seems to make sense - a modest increase in mecha complement, an extra launching deck, stealth technologies, & probably more consumables for longer endurance without resupply. Perhaps more consumables than anything else given the mass increase versus dimensions & mecha complement.

The drop in capacity vs. the ARMD-class is mainly reflective of the difference in size and the various design concessions made to facilitate long-duration deep space operations on an independent basis... whereas the ARMD-class were originally never intended to leave Earth orbit, never mind the solar system, so they are intended to carry the maximum possible VF complement since there is no need to worry about endurance.

 

41 minutes ago, marthf1 said:

But the Northampton-class.... What's going on there? It makes sense that the listed production number is 9,000 because, wow, no need to build anything else. Its dimensions & mass versus its mecha complement, shape, & even having stealth technologies is amazing.

So, as mentioned above, what's going on there is some slightly misleading writing on the Mecha Manual's part.

Under normal circumstances, the Northampton-class stealth frigate's standard configuration carries either no fighters at all or a single platoon (3-4 aircraft) as seen in Macross 7 PLUS "Spiritia Dreaming".

What the Macross Mecha Manual has listed is an unusual/emergency operating condition that was used exactly once.  For Operation Stargazer, aboard the frigate Stargazer.  In that isolated situation, the frigate Stargazer was basically packed to the rafters with Valkyries at the expense of everything else in order to carry out a stealth insertion and a decapitation strike against the Protodeviln's "home" on the Varauta 3198XE system's 4th planet using thermonuclear reaction weapons.  It was meant to be a hard-hitting high-stealth operation using only a single ship and the fleet's most elite pilots to minimize risks, though the attack was ultimately foiled by the planet's defenses and the Protodeviln's biological ability to space fold teleporting the one successfully deployed reaction weapon back to the Stargazer, sinking it.

As far as the more than 9,000 Northampton-class ships built by the mid-2040s, the Northampton-class was an extremely simple, extremely inexpensive design that was engineered to be highly adaptable and upgradeable.  We only see the general duty version and enhanced firepower general duty version in the animation, but the official setting materials say there are a bunch of variants of the design for specific roles like early warning/radar picket duty, anti-aircraft defense, and so on.  There is also a PMC-operated light carrier variant of the Northampton-class that appears in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.  (The Macross Frontier-era stealth cruiser - no class name known - is also derived from the design of the Northampton-class and may be counting towards that "over 9,000".)  Its stealth technologies are essentially exactly the same as those of VFs, just... bigger.  Hull shapes which deflect radar waves away from the sending station, radar-absorbent material, and active radar stealth technology.

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To add onto what @Seto Kaiba said, the ARMD were basically launch and recovery platforms that could maneuver.  When you look at the original and movie ARMDs, the engines are basically just thrusters for station keeping and orbit changes.  They were intended to operate strictly in Earth Orbit, or attached to the SDF-1, so it had minimal onboard facilities for engines, with probably a basic reactor, and needed near constant resupply.  The later carriers were intended to function completely independently, or with with a fleet, so had full drive bays, large reactors, more fuel and extensive life support systems aboard, etc...  All of that takes up more internal space.

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38 minutes ago, Knight26 said:

To add onto what @Seto Kaiba said, the ARMD were basically launch and recovery platforms that could maneuver.  When you look at the original and movie ARMDs, the engines are basically just thrusters for station keeping and orbit changes.  They were intended to operate strictly in Earth Orbit, or attached to the SDF-1, so it had minimal onboard facilities for engines, with probably a basic reactor, and needed near constant resupply.

More than that, the ARMD-class's backstory/development history indicates that the design was originally conceived as a space station.  The original concept (in-universe) was that they would be a network of space airfields in geostationary satellite orbit from which space fighters could operate as part of Earth's planetary defenses.

Somewhere along the way, some bright spark realized that aerodynamics are meaningless in space and therefore the only thing separating these space airbases from being space aircraft carriers was the installation of a navigation bridge and some proper engines.  That slightly reworked design was accepted for use in the Macross Strategic System and the new ARMD-class was born.

The final design was intended to accept a fold system, but the first handful hadn't had them installed yet when they were sunk.  Later hulls were built with fold systems and used in emigrant fleets and Earth's own space defenses, but they weren't quite as high-endurance as the later Guantanamo-class Advanced ARMD.  The later carriers were designed to be spacecraft from the outset, and had more compact and sensible designs for the purpose that factored in advancements in technology, materials, and the basic requirements for stealthiness and so on that accompanied emigrant fleet operations.  (Considering the size of some early emigrant fleets, you could also argue that the smaller aircraft capacity of those newer carriers was to avoid putting all your eggs in one basket.  Wouldn't wanna lose almost half your force's aircraft support capacity if one ship gets sunk, y'know?)

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I know there's little info. But.. The Megaroad-01 fleet consisted of Zentradi and Spacy vessels. Does anyone know what the fleet composition was. Or, at least, what additional ARMD's or Carriers accompanied the Megaroad.  
 

Still curious about the launch arms and VF deployment and receiving bays..

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I know there's little info. But.. The Megaroad-01 fleet consisted of Zentradi and Spacy vessels. Does anyone know what the fleet composition was. Or, at least, what additional ARMD's or Carriers accompanied the Megaroad.  
 

Still curious about the launch arms and VF deployment and receiving bays..

Not sure if these are the info you're looking for. Macross Mecha Manual listed some descriptions and notes to it. Hope that helps. 

http://www.macross2.net/m3/flashback2012/megaroad01.htm

http://www.macross2.net/m3/flashback2012/nupetiet-vergnitzs-fb.htm

 

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2 hours ago, Bolt said:

I know there's little info. But.. The Megaroad-01 fleet consisted of Zentradi and Spacy vessels. Does anyone know what the fleet composition was. Or, at least, what additional ARMD's or Carriers accompanied the Megaroad.  
 

Still curious about the launch arms and VF deployment and receiving bays..

There's one further wrinkle to that: Kawamori-san has changed his stance on those things.  If memory serves, at one point, he said "100 Zentrādi ships accompanied Megaroad-01".  Decades later, he said "100 Zentrādi ships survived SW1" (or vice-versa).

 

Nevertheless, what we do know is, that fleet consisted of:

  • Megaroad-01 Emigrant Ships
  • 2 ARMD-style carriers attached to its rear port and starboard sides
  • 1 Noputi Baganisu (modified)
  • many green and grey coloured ships, class and origin unknown*

Given Kawamori-san's earlier statement, we can presume that there was a max of 100 ships in it.

* from the shape of some, they look like Oberth Space Destroyers.  But they may be Northampton, or an in-between class of destroyer that has never been elaborated on.  The green ships are most likely Zentrādi Suvāru Saran and Picket Ships, simply because they outnumber all the other Zentrādi ship classes and are most likely to have survived the war and fallen into human hands.

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2 hours ago, Bolt said:

I know there's little info. But.. The Megaroad-01 fleet consisted of Zentradi and Spacy vessels. Does anyone know what the fleet composition was. Or, at least, what additional ARMD's or Carriers accompanied the Megaroad.  
 

Still curious about the launch arms and VF deployment and receiving bays..

Well besides the first Megaroad itself and unidentified escorts it had Vrlitwhai's Nupetiet Vergnitzs refit as an escort. It had VF-4s as well. That is at least what we can see in Macross Flashback 2012. As per Macross Delta according to Berger Stone , Epsilon Foundation rep, at the end of the Vajra War Xaos Ragna branch received a transmission from Megaroad-01 which has not been heard from since 2016. In Macross Frontier Richard Bilrer owner of SMS and sponsor of the Frontier fleet believes the Vajra is the key to discovering the whereabouts of Megaroad-01.

Megaroad-04 made a pitstop at Eden before going all the way to the rim at Windermere after taking a detour due to a Fold Fault at 2027.

Megaroad-13 settled the Varauta system in 2025 and at the 4th planet which was Protoculture planet accidentally unleashed the imprisoned Protodevlin in 2043 after sending an investigation team in its ruins messing with the entropy temp controls. The Varauta investigation fleet had VF-14 in its complement.

It takes a while for UN Spacy/NUNS to learn not to touch anything nilly-wily when it comes to the Protoculture! 

Megaroad 24 and 25 never launched as their docking bays blew up. 

 

Besides the emigration fleets there are so solo or private emigrant ships. Some of them are Anti-Earth Zentradi that left in 2031. Around a year after the Second Battle of Macross City.

Most Zentradi integrated some like the 33rd Marines forcefully so. But some didn't just quit and are labeled Zentradi remnants. Thing is wherever Terrans go these Zentradi follow as they look for a fight. Varius colony world's had to deal with them.And  It got so.bad that Earth brass thought there is no negotiating with Zentradi remnants. Remnants of Boddole Zer's 118 Main Fleet. The biggest encountered is Chlore's Meltrandi fleet which was not present during the final battle on Earth but has reports of it. Basara was able to culture that fleet.

E

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1 hour ago, sketchley said:

There's one further wrinkle to that: Kawamori-san has changed his stance on those things.  If memory serves, at one point, he said "100 Zentrādi ships accompanied Megaroad-01".  Decades later, he said "100 Zentrādi ships survived SW1" (or vice-versa).

 

Nevertheless, what we do know is, that fleet consisted of:

  • Megaroad-01 Emigrant Ships
  • 2 ARMD-style carriers attached to its rear port and starboard sides
  • 1 Noputi Baganisu (modified)
  • many green and grey coloured ships, class and origin unknown*

Given Kawamori-san's earlier statement, we can presume that there was a max of 100 ships in it.

* from the shape of some, they look like Oberth Space Destroyers.  But they may be Northampton, or an in-between class of destroyer that has never been elaborated on.  The green ships are most likely Zentrādi Suvāru Saran and Picket Ships, simply because they outnumber all the other Zentrādi ship classes and are most likely to have survived the war and fallen into human hands.

Thanks again. Yes , it's always been vague, at best. It's a wonder they never took a factory with them. But actually I'm very curious about the Oberth and Northampton vessels. I know it's very much guess work.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

It had VF-4s as well.

Um ya.

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A hundred over a thousand of Vrlitwhai's fleet survived Soace War 1 but Earth's surface has some 2,000 Zentradi ship hulls that crashed on the planet. Some repairable. Though I can see the material recycled such as with Zentradi weapons installed on the SDFN Macross Class. As for the ratio of Zentrandi-Meltrandi designs we are  ot sure as Meltran hulls are seen in Macross M3 and Macross VF-X2.

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I realize OTM is near magic, but the displacement for the Northamptons seems really off. At a 200m length with 1200 tonne displacement it almost feels like it's a bunch of Structural Integrity Fields pretending to be metal.

Edited by RangerKarl
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7 hours ago, Bolt said:

I know there's little info. But.. The Megaroad-01 fleet consisted of Zentradi and Spacy vessels. Does anyone know what the fleet composition was. Or, at least, what additional ARMD's or Carriers accompanied the Megaroad.

It's quite vague... the only named ship in the 1st Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet in official setting material is the Megaroad-class SDF-2 Megaroad-01.

There is, as noted, an unnamed Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class fleet command battleship that is occasionally alleged to be Vrlitwhai's wartime command under a new captain.

Unofficial material - e.g. Master File - mentions three ARMD-class space carriers having been attached to the Megaroad-01 fleet: ARMD-09 Haruna, ARMD-10 Minsk, and ARMD-11 Kiev.

Beyond that, it's mostly unspecified.

 

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

[...]

... that's great and all, but none of that had anything to do with the question.

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Megaroad-04 made a pitstop at Eden before going all the way to the rim at Windermere after taking a detour due to a Fold Fault at 2027.

... Megaroad-04 found Windermere IV in 2027 when she was knocked out of a space fold by a fold fault, which isn't quite the same thing.

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Megaroad 24 and 25 never launched as their docking bays blew up. 

It should be noted that it's not clear if a replacement was constructed or not, since there were 30 large-scale long-distance emigrant fleets in the first two generations... and they're generally indicated to have been led by Megaroad-class emigrant ships.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RangerKarl said:

I realize OTM is near magic, but the displacement for the Northamptons seems really off. At a 200m length with 1200 tonne displacement it almost feels like it's a bunch of Structural Integrity Fields pretending to be metal.

It's actually less unreasonable than you'd think... the Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate the US Navy uses has a displacement of 4,165t with entirely conventional materials, and it's a bit under 150m.  When you consider that a lot of the Northampton-class's structure is empty space (hangar/munitions bays, engine nozzles, etc.) and it's made out of lighter, much more resilient materials that are said to be 100x or more as tough as an equivalent thickness of steel, 1,200t sounds surprisingly reasonable.

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9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

A hundred over a thousand of Vrlitwhai's fleet survived Soace War 1 but Earth's surface has some 2,000 Zentradi ship hulls that crashed on the planet. Some repairable. (...)

My impression, from Kawamori's comments, is that the number "100" is something that's stuck in his head, but the context of it was less solidified.

I can see only 100 of Buritai's 1,000 ship strong fleet surviving (they were fighting against millions of other ships).  However, ALL 100 going with the Megaroad-01?  That's a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

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49 minutes ago, sketchley said:

My impression, from Kawamori's comments, is that the number "100" is something that's stuck in his head, but the context of it was less solidified.

I can see only 100 of Buritai's 1,000 ship strong fleet surviving (they were fighting against millions of other ships).  However, ALL 100 going with the Megaroad-01?  That's a bit of a stretch, IMHO.

At least some of them may have went to McDonald's to use the drive-thru instead. :p

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11 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

At least some of them may have went to McDonald's to use the drive-thru instead. :p

A fair few of them likely ended up as short-distance emigrant ships... there were supposedly a hundred or so fleets like that in addition to the long-distance ones we see more of in the animation.

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3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

You mean Macross Nald's. 

Nope. One of the colony planets was accidentally discovered by a single scotsman when the fold drive on his delivery shuttle malfunctioned. The entire planet of McDonald was named in his honor. 

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So... continuing from my previous efforts WRT the old/obsolete lore from the Prometheus and Daedalus, here's an overview of the Sky Angels take on the ARMD.

OF COURSE, SOME OF THIS INFORMATION IS OBSOLETE AND NO LONGER CURRENT/CORRECT

The ARMD-class space carrier was originally conceived as a space station airbase for fighters located in geostationary satellite orbit and at each Lagrange point to protect Earth and the various important space-based structures like factories, colonies, etc.

In their original space station form, they were known and designated as Space Rigs.  SR-01 and SR-02 were completed in April 2003 to serve as close defense for the L5 Manufacturing Station.  

Structurally, the Space Rig design was an armored, but only partly pressurized, complex of hangars and docks.  Each side had its own hangars and docks for fighters and auxiliary craft  and the lower part of the central hull was thought of as a dock capable of accommodating a space destroyer.

At the time, the Macross Strategic System plan called for the introduction of a fold-capable space carrier design between 600m and 800m in length and with a displacement of 500,000t.  Plans for this full-scale space carrier were derailed due to cost increases caused by inflation and technical problems surrounding the implementation of a fold system.  Construction on the first ship of this class began at the L4 manufacturing station at the end of 2005, with a planned completion in mid-2010 at the earliest.

Due to the delays in the planned delivery of its dedicated space carrier class, the UN Forces turned to the Space Rigs as an alternative in order to meet the timing determined for the commissioning of the Macross.  The design was reworked into a support aircraft carrier based on the Space Rig structure and existing hulls under construction at the L5 Manufacturing Station were reworked according to this new plan.  The revised design was dubbed ARMD - Armaments Rigged-up Moving Deck - and renovation work began in a hurry in 2006.  The first and second ships of the ARMD-class were completed and commissioned in Spring 2007.  

The main refurbishment points separating the original Space Rig design from the ARMD-class carrier design were additional armor reinforcement, the addition of beam cannons and missile launchers, a navigation bridge and a main engine system for maneuvering being fitted to the Space Rig's existing exterior superstructure.  Because it was intended to support space fighters with a short activity period, a large delta-V was required and the main propulsion system was built to have a disproportionately high exhaust speed.  The SF-3 Lancer II space fighter was the standard at the time, and its tendency to burn all propellant within 1 minute made it impossible to return to the carrier on its own, so the ARMD-class was built with an operational top speed higher than the SF-3's in order to recover them properly.

A docking connector for linking up with the Macross was provisionally included so that the ARMD-class could function as support for the Macross's own fighters and a semi-independent operating environment with its own power and maintenance facilities.

After commissioning in Spring 2007, ARMD-01 (Harlan J. Niven) and ARMD-02 (Invincible) began to function as a unit training station for the SF-3 and QF-3000 and a test flight station for the VF-1.  At the time, it was judged that its maneuverability was low but it was extremely cost effective and versatile.  Based on that feedback, all remaining Space Rigs under construction were remodeled to ARMDs, and it was decided to instead form a patrol fleet in collaboration with several space destroyers.  Unlike ARMD-01 and -02, ARMD-03 and beyond had additional fighter launch equipment.

The spec for the first 8 ARMD-class ships is more or less as we know it from the TV series materials.

Specs for ARMD-09 thru ARMD-16 are a bit different in this book... with the standard weapons being replaced by three Zentradi ship-to-ship beam cannons, 4 Bifors anti-ship missile launchers, 2 Zentradi ship-to-ship missile launchers, and 2 large anti-warship reaction missile launchers.  Instead of the 270 QF-3000E Ghosts, 78 SF-3A Lancer II's, and 18 Valkyries, the postwar type is said to carry 94 Regults, 24 Super Valkyries, and 120 Ghosts, plus a few Regult variants.

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Thanks very much for that info @Seto Kaiba ! This is the exact kind of research I'm needing for my future diorama works. As there's really not any detailed info on the Megaroad-01 or the even enough (IMO)  on SDF-1 , I'm forced to extrapolate. Based on in universe designs and theorizing what the progression in design would be. Hence my earlier questions about launch docks , launch arms, etc..

We have a lot more info on newer ships and tons of anime to study from M7 to Frontier. But recreating something like a Megaroad-01 hangar is difficult ! Recreating an ARMD hangar would be much easier. Even one that was escorting the Megaroad-01 would be easier..

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All in all, that is the first (and only) source I've seen that actually explains why the ARMDs are shaped the way they are... which makes sense given that they're a floating dock turned upside-down anyway.

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5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

All in all, that is the first (and only) source I've seen that actually explains why the ARMDs are shaped the way they are... which makes sense given that they're a floating dock turned upside-down anyway.

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. Although I can't imagine them trying the "Daedalus Maneuver" with one of those. O.o

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2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. Although I can't imagine them trying the "Daedalus Maneuver" with one of those. O.o

Actually, if I remember correctly, one of the games actually had an ARMD used in a Daedalus Maneuver like attack on an enemy. I think it was one of the games that followed the "Do You Remember Love?" timeline.

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5 hours ago, deathzealot said:

Actually, if I remember correctly, one of the games actually had an ARMD used in a Daedalus Maneuver like attack on an enemy. I think it was one of the games that followed the "Do You Remember Love?" timeline.

You do, in fact, remember correctly.

https://youtu.be/-c_rC1g7-_0

 

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1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Macross 2036

That's a Daedalus II-class assault carrier, it shares some design elements in common with the ARMD-class but it's also a separate (and much newer) class of warship specifically designed to execute the Daedalus Attack.

 

28 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, but I really don't think an ARMD would be as suited towards that as Daedalus is. JMO.

It's got a lot of little hangar gates instead of one big one, so the Monsters wouldn't be able to participate easily, but in all other respects it should work nearly as well as long as it has cover from a pinpoint barrier.

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49 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's got a lot of little hangar gates instead of one big one, so the Monsters wouldn't be able to participate easily, but in all other respects it should work nearly as well as long as it has cover from a pinpoint barrier.

Just looks like it wouldn't be built as strongly as Daedalus; I know ARMD's would be built for being at least partly air-tight in space, but SLV's would seem to be built more strongly to resist ocean stresses (twisting, torsion and "keel buckling"). I know the bow of either would have the pinpoint barriers and all, but while the barriers would absorb the initial shock, wouldn't them being compacted by the impact press them into the framework and superstructure of the hull?

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8 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Just looks like it wouldn't be built as strongly as Daedalus; I know ARMD's would be built for being at least partly air-tight in space, but SLV's would seem to be built more strongly to resist ocean stresses (twisting, torsion and "keel buckling"). I know the bow of either would have the pinpoint barriers and all, but while the barriers would absorb the initial shock, wouldn't them being compacted by the impact press them into the framework and superstructure of the hull?

I dunno, per the old material I translated the ARMD-class was designed to withstand some pretty intense acceleration stresses... and being shielded from the impact by a portable immovable object made out of twisted-up space-time means the ship doesn't have to deal with any of the physical consequences of the impact.  The barrier's basically a wall made of twisted space holding a relative position from the ship, so it wouldn't be pushed around by the impact because it's not a physical object.

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