Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[twich]

So is the VF-19’s gun pod at the 30mm mark, from my understanding. The VF-11’s gun pod wasn’t great, but still did a good enough job against Zentradi and Varuta mecha in Macross Plus/Macross 7.

plus, even if it is a hybrid system, the cyclic rate of fire, plus higher velocity will produce greater kinetic force on impact for the rail gun mini gun pods of the VF-31.

 Twich 

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Windermere IV has large reserves of fold quartz thanks to having previously been a world settled by the Protoculture, but fold quartz with the requisite size and purity to use in a fold wave system or similar technology is still quite rare.  The Sv-262 Draken III has a more conservative take on the fold wave system concept called a Fold Reheat system.  The operation of the system isn't described in detail, but it seems to do only one thing: improve engine output.  The base Ba model's fold reheat produces a 25% improvement in total engine output, while the Hs command specification uses higher-purity fold quartz provided by the royal family to achieve a 30% output improvement.  That improvement is quite substantial, but the Sv-262 itself doesn't seem to be quite capable of sustaining it given that there's one point in the series where it's mentioned that Keith's reckless use of "wind riding" inflicted enough damage to his Sv-262Hs that it needed a major overhaul.

 

By contrast, the Fold Wave System used in the YF-29 and VF-31 Custom is a more multipurposeful system.  It improves the performance of thermonuclear reaction engines that were designed to interface with it, but it also provides the Valkyrie with energy via fold dimensional energy conversion and facilitates the detection, interception, and amplification of fold waves.  With an active fold wave system, a Valkyrie can draw out the full potential of its engines while also fully powering every other system like energy conversion armor, pinpoint barriers, and beam weapons.  Even though the VF-31 Custom's cut-down fold wave system is less capable in terms of total thrust output than the Draken III's fold reheat, it's still noted to be far and away the superior system.  (Being able to run the Siegfried's energy conversion armor at full power and activate the pinpoint barriers in fighter mode is itself a pretty huge advantage, since it makes the Siegfried WAY tankier than the Draken III.)

At the rate these stories are going, I wonder how long it will be before they design a mech that could run simply on fold dimension energy only.

[twich]

So, as we know, the amazing thing about the YF-29 is that it has this fold wave system which allows for many things, as Seto has pointed out, but what I also find amazing, that hasn’t really been discussed is the Energy Conversion Armor, which is double thickness with twice the energy being pumped into it, which gives it even higher armor power than the armor pack of the VF-25 Armor pack.  Is this present then on the YF-29, or is it one of those things that has been added to every subsequent Valkyrie (YF-30, VF-31)?

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

16 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

At the rate these stories are going, I wonder how long it will be before they design a mech that could run simply on fold dimension energy only.

So... if we're not limiting it to just human-designed mecha and such, then depending on how you want to define "mecha" the answer is potentially in the past.

In Macross 7, the Evil-series bioweapons the Protoculture developed were powered by prototype biotechnological fold dimensional energy converters.  A botched power test of the converters was what trapped energy beings from fold space in their bodies, forcing them to resort to preying on the Protoculture in order to survive.  (The Protodeviln's origin story.)

In Macross Zero, the Birdhuman the Protoculture left behind on Earth to destroy humanity if it made it to space without achieving a harmonious society was also powered by a fold dimensional energy converter.

Macross Chronicle implied that the Protoculture acquired the technology by studying the Vajra, and that Vajra Queens and likely other Vajra forms power their energy-intensive biotechnologies this way.

 

35 minutes ago, twich said:

So is the VF-19’s gun pod at the 30mm mark, from my understanding.

Its caliber has never been identified, officially.

 

3 minutes ago, twich said:

So, as we know, the amazing thing about the YF-29 is that it has this fold wave system which allows for many things, as Seto has pointed out, but what I also find amazing, that hasn’t really been discussed is the Energy Conversion Armor, which is double thickness with twice the energy being pumped into it, which gives it even higher armor power than the armor pack of the VF-25 Armor pack.  Is this present then on the YF-29, or is it one of those things that has been added to every subsequent Valkyrie (YF-30, VF-31)?

As far as we know, that brute force approach to greater defensive potential by doubling the armor thickness and doubling the power supply was limited to the YF-29.

In hindsight, it's actually kind of odd that the YF-29 didn't adopt the Advanced Energy Conversion Armor used in the VF-25's antiprojectile shield and the VF-25's Armored Pack.  

It's actually kind of odd that those 2nd Generation energy conversion armor technologies aren't mentioned after Frontier either, though perhaps more understandable since the technology was mentioned to be very expensive and the Macross Delta VFs lack forearm shields.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... if we're not limiting it to just human-designed mecha and such, then depending on how you want to define "mecha" the answer is potentially in the past.

In Macross 7, the Evil-series bioweapons the Protoculture developed were powered by prototype biotechnological fold dimensional energy converters.  A botched power test of the converters was what trapped energy beings from fold space in their bodies, forcing them to resort to preying on the Protoculture in order to survive.  (The Protodeviln's origin story.)

In Macross Zero, the Birdhuman the Protoculture left behind on Earth to destroy humanity if it made it to space without achieving a harmonious society was also powered by a fold dimensional energy converter.

Macross Chronicle implied that the Protoculture acquired the technology by studying the Vajra, and that Vajra Queens and likely other Vajra forms power their energy-intensive biotechnologies this way.

Yeah, I had intended on humanity's efforts; seeing that it has been done already, it's probably only a matter of time before the Unity Government cracks that.

(hopefully they learn from Protoculture's mistakes, but given our predilection for grasping power without understanding it, that's doubtful)

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, I had intended on humanity's efforts; seeing that it has been done already, it's probably only a matter of time before the Unity Government cracks that.

(hopefully they learn from Protoculture's mistakes, but given our predilection for grasping power without understanding it, that's doubtful)

For now, the biggest obstacle to a human-built fold dimensional energy converter would probably be that humanity has yet to develop the technology to synthesize fold quartz the way they currently synthesize fold carbon.  It's something they're working on (according to Macross Chronicle) but as of 2067 don't seem to have succeeded with yet.  They're still dependent on the fold quartz they find in Protoculture ruins, old Vajra nesting sites, and Vajra carcasses. 

Even once they reach the point of synthesizing fold quartz, other uses for it will probably take priority for a good while.  Like zero-time fold systems and inertia store converters for ships and fighters, high-performance GIC systems for thermonuclear reactors, improved holographic projectors, and the like.  (Unfortunately it'll probably also mean a proliferation of MDE weapons, dimension cutters, and dimension eaters since fold quartz will be readily available.)

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For now, the biggest obstacle to a human-built fold dimensional energy converter would probably be that humanity has yet to develop the technology to synthesize fold quartz the way they currently synthesize fold carbon.  It's something they're working on (according to Macross Chronicle) but as of 2067 don't seem to have succeeded with yet.  They're still dependent on the fold quartz they find in Protoculture ruins, old Vajra nesting sites, and Vajra carcasses. 

Even once they reach the point of synthesizing fold quartz, other uses for it will probably take priority for a good while.  Like zero-time fold systems and inertia store converters for ships and fighters, high-performance GIC systems for thermonuclear reactors, improved holographic projectors, and the like.  (Unfortunately it'll probably also mean a proliferation of MDE weapons, dimension cutters, and dimension eaters since fold quartz will be readily available.)

And blur the lines between humanity and Protoculture even further.

That might be a good premise for a Macross story (or even series); we begin getting to the point the Protoculture reached before destroying themselves. Will we avoid their mistakes (but make our own)? Or will we end up replaying history?

[Bolt]

Humans are still how many thousands of years behind the Protoculture,  in space exploration? While we've certainly followed in their footsteps with some technology, I don't see us getting that far along any time soon. 
VF wise, with the VF-24,25 , 27,29,31. To name just a few , we have so much advanced tech emerging. There's still so much ripe opportunities for more stories with what we've got. With great VF's.  Personally I'd love more mecha and story action with the VF-171.  

[pengbuzz]

43 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Humans are still how many thousands of years behind the Protoculture,  in space exploration? While we've certainly followed in their footsteps with some technology, I don't see us getting that far along any time soon. 
VF wise, with the VF-24,25 , 27,29,31. To name just a few , we have so much advanced tech emerging. There's still so much ripe opportunities for more stories with what we've got. With great VF's.  Personally I'd love more mecha and story action with the VF-171.  

While that's true, we have something the Protoculture didn't: Protoculture relics and finds to guide us in developing our tech.

[Bolt]

True enough. Most of which being scary and destructive. They're a great role model of what not to do 😅

[pengbuzz]

10 minutes ago, Bolt said:

True enough. Most of which being scary and destructive. They're a great role model of what not to do 😅

Exactly; and with Mankind's record of not learning lessons well (especially after repeating many of them), the risks and inherent dangers are real.

Let's take a brief look at this for a moment:

1) Before the arrival of Alien Star Ship 1, Humanity's space tech was pretty much the ISS, communications satellites, space capsules and the Space Shuttle (circa 1999, when the ASS-1 crashed). We had nuclear weapons and conventional tanks, missiles, guns, fighters and such. No real manned interplanetary travel, let alone manned extrasolar travel of any kind.

2) Fast forward to 2012 (in the Macross timeline): Man has been (inadvertently) to the outer edge of the solar system in a manned ship (SDF-1); spaceflight achieved and spacecraft, lunar base and space-capable fighters have been built and tested. The Launch of the Megaroad-1 marks the first extrasolar expedition outside the Terran Solar System. At this point, I believe man already had at least one factory satellite, the confirmation of alien life in the form of the Zentraedi and Meltrandi, supralight- travel capable vessels in the form of the Zentran starships that rebelled against Gol Boldoza, reaction warheads, super dimension energy technology, and a host of other discoveries that changed Humanity irrevocably.

3) Moving on to 2040 (Macross Plus): predictive AI for combat craft, AI with dangerous emotional psychological profiles ("Sharon Apple"). We also have: fighter-scale fold drives, extrasolar colonies in other star systems, and deep space exploration, Fold is now commonplace on warships (which now have a better idea on how to fight thanks to Zentran experience and hard-learned lessons from SW1), and we now have advanced medical techniques in treating trauma and wounds (i.e. Isamu's time in the black goo in Macross Plus). By this time, human cloning had been run for some time until genetic errors and diseases forced the Unity Government to close it down, electric vehicles for regular use have become commonplace, and food is apparently no longer an issue.

4) Jumping to 2047 (Macross Dynamite 7): entire cities in space are part of the emigrant fleets (and have been for some time, back to 2030 at least); Three Star class factory ships and Sunnyflower class agriculture ships provide food and equipment for the fleets, while West Point class ships train pilots and personnel for military service. Energy weapons, reaction weaponry and all types of missiles, projectile and energy weapons are available. Other alien civilizations (such as the Zolans) have been contacted and allied with, along with some governments using space whales as engines for starships.

5) Going on to 2059 (Macross Frontier), Humanity has encountered the Vajra and is harvesting fold quartz from them). Fighter technology is now at the point where augmentation of the pilot via Ex-Gear and the Inertia Store Converter is required due to the strain on the body from g-forces., while magnetic shifters reduce conversion time for transforming fighters to near-instantaneous. Additionally, "dimension eater" technology has been developed, and the revelation of the Galaxy fleet using mind-control to keep its' civilians passively in check has been something brewing since before the Sharon Apple Incident.

6) Arriving at 2067 (Macross Delta), we find the Brisingr Globular Cluster, and the event known as Fold Faults. The technology we see are: fold reheat systems, fold quartz being used for dimension cutter/eater weapons, fold-space energy...

Taking a look at all of this (and my apologies if any of the info appears in the incorrect time/ series; I was writing this on the fly really): within a space of 68 years, man has gone from being largely earth-bound, to traversing a considerable part of the Milky Way galaxy in faster than light ships, armed with dimension energy and reaction weapons, with advanced manufacturing, agricultural, medical and combat/ military, cloning and all other kinds of tech...

... is it possible that mankind in the Marcoss world is advancing far too quickly to appropriately master and discipline himself to the tools and technology he now has?

 

Thinking about the Anti-UN forces: it has been said that battlefield commanders think differently than strategic generals overseeing campaigns. How would they use such technology if they were desperate to win?

 

I can see some of the shadows of the Protoculture civilization looming in the wings; Mankind may not be as advanced as they are, but I suspect with them, the seeds of the protoculture's fall were sown well before their Stellar Republic came to fruition.

 

Just some thoughts on the matter....

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Taking a look at all of this (and my apologies if any of the info appears in the incorrect time/ series; I was writing this on the fly really): within a space of 68 years, man has gone from being largely earth-bound, to traversing a considerable part of the Milky Way galaxy in faster than light ships, armed with dimension energy and reaction weapons, with advanced manufacturing, agricultural, medical and combat/ military, cloning and all other kinds of tech...

... is it possible that mankind in the Marcoss world is advancing far too quickly to appropriately master and discipline himself to the tools and technology he now has?

One related topic that is very pertinent to Macross Delta... humanity is sharing its advanced technology with the other sub-Protoculture species it encounters as it explores space.  The Zolans were the next most advanced species behind Humans, and their society had only advanced to approximately equal humanity's level of development in the first half of the 20th century when they were suddenly catapulted into the interstellar age.  Civilization on Windermere IV - and, it's implied, other Brisingr cluster worlds - skipped whole sets of eras in the natural course of their development and jumped from medieval civilizations to interstellar ones.

We've already seen that Windermere IV didn't exactly do a great job adjusting, given that their cultural mindset was still heavily entrenched in the medievalness of one generation prior when they declared war in 2060.

The New UN Gov't really freaking needs the Prime Directive.

[pengbuzz]

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One related topic that is very pertinent to Macross Delta... humanity is sharing its advanced technology with the other sub-Protoculture species it encounters as it explores space.  The Zolans were the next most advanced species behind Humans, and their society had only advanced to approximately equal humanity's level of development in the first half of the 20th century when they were suddenly catapulted into the interstellar age.  Civilization on Windermere IV - and, it's implied, other Brisingr cluster worlds - skipped whole sets of eras in the natural course of their development and jumped from medieval civilizations to interstellar ones.

We've already seen that Windermere IV didn't exactly do a great job adjusting, given that their cultural mindset was still heavily entrenched in the medievalness of one generation prior when they declared war in 2060.

That's a very good point, and matches with the one I was making: humanity skipped several hundreds of years in development, and were catapulted into the interstellar age.

With all of these civilizations, it takes time to develop discipline in using technology; even then, folks often don't use it for benevolent means. It's one thing to develop something, but it's another entirely to see its' effect on your society. You also end up skipping social advancements as well (end of slavery, caste system, etc.) and end up with nascent social moors now cemented in place artificially by means to stabilize them. In other words: they never have to develop as a society because the tech now available to them allows them to stay where they are comfortably without needed development.

 

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Gov't really freaking needs the Prime Directive.

They really do; this kidn of thing gets going too much, and the next war the NUNS find themselves in are going to be former colonies and member states following suit like the Windemerans.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Exactly; and with Mankind's record of not learning lessons well (especially after repeating many of them), the risks and inherent dangers are real.

In fairness, mankind in Macross has learned one important lesson: if the protoculture left some dangerous ruins around, you NUKE IT FROM ORBIT instead of studying it to figure out how it works and if you can adapt it to your purposes.

[pengbuzz]

7 minutes ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, mankind in Macross has learned one important lesson: if the protoculture left some dangerous ruins around, you NUKE IT FROM ORBIT instead of studying it to figure out how it works and if you can adapt it to your purposes.

In one instance they did; but that depends upon whether they feel it's "dangerous" or not. Not everything has a gigantic "WARNING" sign on it.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

With all of these civilizations, it takes time to develop discipline in using technology; even then, folks often don't use it for benevolent means. It's one thing to develop something, but it's another entirely to see its' effect on your society. You also end up skipping social advancements as well (end of slavery, caste system, etc.) and end up with nascent social moors now cemented in place artificially by means to stabilize them. In other words: they never have to develop as a society because the tech now available to them allows them to stay where they are comfortably without needed development.

Fortunately, Macross being Macross, the vast majority of people in the galaxy are actually pretty decent and just want to get along... so truly nefarious plots are few and far between.

That said, when applied without malice, the advancements in technology humanity brought does have some pretty significant advantages.  With the possible exception of Zola, none of the other sub-Protoculture worlds that've made contact with the New UN Government have to contend with the health and environmental consequences of an industrial age like deforestation, rampant pollution, exposure to toxic chemicals used in manufacturing processes, etc.  They got to skip the nasty environmental consequences of things like fossil fuel pollution and radioactive waste management and go straight to high-efficiency wind, solar, and thermonuclear power.

 

5 hours ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, mankind in Macross has learned one important lesson: if the protoculture left some dangerous ruins around, you NUKE IT FROM ORBIT instead of studying it to figure out how it works and if you can adapt it to your purposes.

For a given value of "dangerous".

It's not always immediately evident what insane nonsense they buried where.  Like on Uroboros, where an extensive network of ruins were under investigation for ages despite being full of dangerous technorganic murder-bugs because (almost) nobody knew that they were looking at a vast dimensional lock keeping a weaponized time machine in out of anyone's hands.  

It can be said that the Protoculture gradually got better about their Keep Out signs.  Leaving the 4th planet of the Varauta system an uninhabitable iceworld was a good start.  When they buried the Fold Evil on Uroboros they left a self-replicating, aggressively territorial swarm of highly proactive Keep Out signs then broke spacetime around the planet to ensure that it stayed that way.  On Windermere IV and the other worlds of the Brisingr cluster, they didn't just break spacetime they chucked the dangerous bits of their untested telepathy machine into another dimension.  That last was enough for the New UN Forces to think "I know where this is going" and conclude that maximum overkill was the only way to keep whatever the Protoculture locked up from being messed with.  (Unfortunately, Wright Immelmann screwed the pooch on that one and turned a bombing run on a museum piece into a war crime.)

[pengbuzz]

52 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Fortunately, Macross being Macross, the vast majority of people in the galaxy are actually pretty decent and just want to get along... so truly nefarious plots are few and far between.

That said, when applied without malice, the advancements in technology humanity brought does have some pretty significant advantages.  With the possible exception of Zola, none of the other sub-Protoculture worlds that've made contact with the New UN Government have to contend with the health and environmental consequences of an industrial age like deforestation, rampant pollution, exposure to toxic chemicals used in manufacturing processes, etc.  They got to skip the nasty environmental consequences of things like fossil fuel pollution and radioactive waste management and go straight to high-efficiency wind, solar, and thermonuclear power.

While all that is true, As mentioned, Windermere still had difficulty adjusting to the jump. A type of "Prime Directives" would be good, but unlike Star Trek, it should be more geared towards a successful transition rather than a complete bar.

52 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For a given value of "dangerous".

It's not always immediately evident what insane nonsense they buried where.  Like on Uroboros, where an extensive network of ruins were under investigation for ages despite being full of dangerous technorganic murder-bugs because (almost) nobody knew that they were looking at a vast dimensional lock keeping a weaponized time machine in out of anyone's hands.  

It can be said that the Protoculture gradually got better about their Keep Out signs.  Leaving the 4th planet of the Varauta system an uninhabitable iceworld was a good start.  When they buried the Fold Evil on Uroboros they left a self-replicating, aggressively territorial swarm of highly proactive Keep Out signs then broke spacetime around the planet to ensure that it stayed that way.  On Windermere IV and the other worlds of the Brisingr cluster, they didn't just break spacetime they chucked the dangerous bits of their untested telepathy machine into another dimension.  That last was enough for the New UN Forces to think "I know where this is going" and conclude that maximum overkill was the only way to keep whatever the Protoculture locked up from being messed with. 

That was my point earlier: danger isn't always evident at first glance. Some things are, and Protoculture got better about their warning signs. One thign I would have thought about them though: after a while, wouldn't various someones in the factions and groups have said:"Hey...maybe after the 563rd attempt at a Dimensional Chainsaw Missile Atomic Noogie Slingshot, we shouldn't be building so much of this!".

 

52 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(Unfortunately, Wright Immelmann screwed the pooch on that one and turned a bombing run on a museum piece into a war crime.)

Forgive me, but I'm a bit unclear on what happened exactly: how did Wright foul up his bomb run?

[twich]

17 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

While all that is true, As mentioned, Windermere still had difficulty adjusting to the jump. A type of "Prime Directives" would be good, but unlike Star Trek, it should be more geared towards a successful transition rather than a complete bar.

That was my point earlier: danger isn't always evident at first glance. Some things are, and Protoculture got better about their warning signs. One thign I would have thought about them though: after a while, wouldn't various someones in the factions and groups have said:"Hey...maybe after the 563rd attempt at a Dimensional Chainsaw Missile Atomic Noogie Slingshot, we shouldn't be building so much of this!".

 

Forgive me, but I'm a bit unclear on what happened exactly: how did Wright foul up his bomb run?

Yes, I am unclear on this as well.  From My understanding, Wright Immelmann sacrificed himself, went against his orders to drop a Dimension Eater bomb on a populated area and saved some of the people some undue evaporation from its effects.  While this solidified the hatred that the ruling body had for the NUNS, it saved so many of the people he had gotten to know while on the planet.

Twich

[JB0]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It can be said that the Protoculture gradually got better about their Keep Out signs. 

But never figured out to just drop the things into a black hole for relativistic shredding.

Oh well...

[RedWolf]

12 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

. is it possible that mankind in the Marcoss world is advancing far too quickly to appropriately master and discipline himself to the tools and technology he now has?

Yeah about that the advancement of the Protoculture itself is ridiculous as it took more than 500 years to go from STL to an Intergalactic polity that had crazy WMD. Their decline to extinction is far longer than they were at their prime. It took two centuries to go from STL to FTL speeds. A century at STL speed to create Zentradi.

 

Protoculture history

PC 2400s
Protoculture's first space colonization begins (with the use of sub-light-velocity spaceships). [PC 2600s]
PC 2500s
The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]
PC 2700s
Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation).
PC 2800s
Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.
PC 2860
Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.
PC 2865
Development on powerful biological weapons based on the Zentradi, "Evil Series," begins. [Note: "Evil" pronounced as "Eh-vil."] Evil is the abbreviation of the Protoculture term for "advanced (Zentradi) all-enivron biological weapon." Trial production takes place on a scientifically advanced planet (the first planet of the star system later known as Varauta), but because of unresolvable problems with the weapons' power exceeding the fighting capability requirements, trial production is halted.
PC 2868
On the [aforementioned] scientifically advanced planet, the existence of a sub-universe is confirmed. According to survey results, this sub-universe is abound with super high levels of extra-dimensional energy, and this energy is discovered to have the potential for application.The trial production of super dimension energy gates which can supply energy from the sub-universe is begun, and genetically engineered biological super dimension organs are developed. These biological super dimension organs are extremely compact, and they are expected to supply enormous amounts of energy.
Because of power problems, the trial production begins implementing the technology from the terminated "Evil Series." No problems are uncovered in simulations.
The internal conflicts within the Stellar Republic revives the development of the "Evil Series."
PC 2870
A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary environment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]
PC 2871
On the [aforementioned] scientifically advanced planet, trial production of the "Evil Series" for final tests is begun. Seven Evil Series weapons of seven types including a highly mobile, humanoid "Sivil" for search-and-destroy functions and a super-scale, high-powered "Glavil" for fleet warfare are completed. The Evil Series tests are begun, but at the same time biological super dimension organs overload and extradimensional energy is released. The Evil Series' bodies are occupied by the spiritual energy life form from the sub-universe and thus creating, from the massive fighting capability of the Evil Series and the enormous potential of the spiritial energy, beings with extraordinary fighting ability and a coveting for life energy, "Spiritia." They covet Spiritia in order to continue existing as extra-dimensional beings in this universe. They begin invading the surrounding planets and systems using spaceships and weapons of people from the scientifically advanced planet that they brainwashed. (They later become known as the Supervision Army).
Three months later, the internal conflicts of the Protoculture Stellar Republic are halted as efforts are devoted against the extradimensional energy beings occupying the Evil Series, dubbed "Protodeviln." However, over 30% of the Stellar Republic and several hundred systems are under Protodeviln control and the Spiritia-deprived people number several hundred billion. The Zentradi faction fight but, due to the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture," are unable to fight effectively against the brainwashed Protoculture people under the control of the Protodeviln.
PC 2872
Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.
PC 2873
Approximately one year after the emergence of Protodeviln, their power begins to rapidly decline.
"Protodeviln sealing operation." People (known as Anima Spiritia) who are significant in the war against the Protodeviln are determined to have influential powers over the Protodeviln. Protodeviln faction are completely sealed in special chambers through the efforts of Anima Spiritia.
PC 2875
Protoculture population continues to decrease even through the Protodeviln are sealed.
The network among each colonized planet disintegrates. Control of the Zentradi faction is lost and the reissuing of the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture" becomes ineffective.
PC 3000
Dissolution of Stellar Republic.
Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins.
PC 5000
In what still remains of the Stellar Republic, only a small number of separated colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and other populations at the edge of the galaxy are left.
PC 25000
Near annihilation of Protoculture.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Forgive me, but I'm a bit unclear on what happened exactly: how did Wright foul up his bomb run?

12 hours ago, twich said:

Yes, I am unclear on this as well.  From My understanding, Wright Immelmann sacrificed himself, went against his orders to drop a Dimension Eater bomb on a populated area and saved some of the people some undue evaporation from its effects.  While this solidified the hatred that the ruling body had for the NUNS, it saved so many of the people he had gotten to know while on the planet.

Major Wright Immelmann's final (and fatal) mission was supposed to be to drop the dimensional warhead his VF-22S was carrying on the Protoculture ruins near Darwent.  Had he followed orders, he could potentially have prevented the events of Macross Delta from occurring at all by disabling or destroying the Delta Wave System and Sigur Berrentzs.  There may have been some casualties from dropping a WMD near, but not on, a city... but a lot fewer than what his actions caused.

Instead, he deliberately dithered in enemy airspace hoping to be intercepted because he was worried about the risk to Darwent, and he got his wish.  He was intercepted.  While he was loitering over the city of Carlyle.  Yes, this bright spark of a man decided the most appropriate thing to do while carrying an armed dimensional warhead was to fly in circles in the airspace over a major city.  His superiors ordered him to proceed to target and he refused, so they overrode his controls but too late to do any good.  The bomb ended up being dropped by remote control for reasons unclear - possibly the NUNS brass were worried it would fall into Windermerean hands, or that the crash might cause it to detonate on the ground and cause more damage than the planned airburst - and Wright was subsequently shot down and killed.  So his well-intentioned idiocy not only prevented the military from destroying a Protoculture relic that could potentially kill the entire galactic population by accident even if it worked correctly, it also cost the lives of millions of Windermereans in Carlyle when the city was destroyed in the dimensional warhead's detonation, inflicted heavy casualties on the New UN Forces on the planet, blew up into a major scandal which caused both sides to label him as a war criminal, and directly motivated Windermere's subsequent invasion of the Brisingr cluster and all the death and destruction that followed.

If he'd followed orders, or even just objected on the ground and been replaced by another pilot, the events of Macross Delta would probably have never come to pass and many of the characters (esp. on the Windermere side) would not have grown up the horribly broken people they were since Keith's mentor and Bogue's family wouldn't have died.

"Nice job breaking it, hero."

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Yeah about that the advancement of the Protoculture itself is ridiculous as it took more than 500 years to go from STL to an Intergalactic polity that had crazy WMD. Their decline to extinction is far longer than they were at their prime. It took two centuries to go from STL to FTL speeds. A century at STL speed to create Zentradi.

 

Protoculture history

PC 2400s
Protoculture's first space colonization begins (with the use of sub-light-velocity spaceships). [PC 2600s]
PC 2500s
The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]
PC 2700s
Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation).
PC 2800s
Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.
PC 2860
Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.
PC 2865
Development on powerful biological weapons based on the Zentradi, "Evil Series," begins. [Note: "Evil" pronounced as "Eh-vil."] Evil is the abbreviation of the Protoculture term for "advanced (Zentradi) all-enivron biological weapon." Trial production takes place on a scientifically advanced planet (the first planet of the star system later known as Varauta), but because of unresolvable problems with the weapons' power exceeding the fighting capability requirements, trial production is halted.
PC 2868
On the [aforementioned] scientifically advanced planet, the existence of a sub-universe is confirmed. According to survey results, this sub-universe is abound with super high levels of extra-dimensional energy, and this energy is discovered to have the potential for application.The trial production of super dimension energy gates which can supply energy from the sub-universe is begun, and genetically engineered biological super dimension organs are developed. These biological super dimension organs are extremely compact, and they are expected to supply enormous amounts of energy.
Because of power problems, the trial production begins implementing the technology from the terminated "Evil Series." No problems are uncovered in simulations.
The internal conflicts within the Stellar Republic revives the development of the "Evil Series."
PC 2870
A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary environment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]
PC 2871
On the [aforementioned] scientifically advanced planet, trial production of the "Evil Series" for final tests is begun. Seven Evil Series weapons of seven types including a highly mobile, humanoid "Sivil" for search-and-destroy functions and a super-scale, high-powered "Glavil" for fleet warfare are completed. The Evil Series tests are begun, but at the same time biological super dimension organs overload and extradimensional energy is released. The Evil Series' bodies are occupied by the spiritual energy life form from the sub-universe and thus creating, from the massive fighting capability of the Evil Series and the enormous potential of the spiritial energy, beings with extraordinary fighting ability and a coveting for life energy, "Spiritia." They covet Spiritia in order to continue existing as extra-dimensional beings in this universe. They begin invading the surrounding planets and systems using spaceships and weapons of people from the scientifically advanced planet that they brainwashed. (They later become known as the Supervision Army).
Three months later, the internal conflicts of the Protoculture Stellar Republic are halted as efforts are devoted against the extradimensional energy beings occupying the Evil Series, dubbed "Protodeviln." However, over 30% of the Stellar Republic and several hundred systems are under Protodeviln control and the Spiritia-deprived people number several hundred billion. The Zentradi faction fight but, due to the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture," are unable to fight effectively against the brainwashed Protoculture people under the control of the Protodeviln.
PC 2872
Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.
PC 2873
Approximately one year after the emergence of Protodeviln, their power begins to rapidly decline.
"Protodeviln sealing operation." People (known as Anima Spiritia) who are significant in the war against the Protodeviln are determined to have influential powers over the Protodeviln. Protodeviln faction are completely sealed in special chambers through the efforts of Anima Spiritia.
PC 2875
Protoculture population continues to decrease even through the Protodeviln are sealed.
The network among each colonized planet disintegrates. Control of the Zentradi faction is lost and the reissuing of the prime directive "Do not interfere with Protoculture" becomes ineffective.
PC 3000
Dissolution of Stellar Republic.
Oppostion between the Supervision and Zentradi factions begins.
PC 5000
In what still remains of the Stellar Republic, only a small number of separated colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and other populations at the edge of the galaxy are left.
PC 25000
Near annihilation of Protoculture.

And in Earth's case, it took only sixty years to go from stl to colonizing various planets and dimensional weapons.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Major Wright Immelmann's final (and fatal) mission was supposed to be to drop the dimensional warhead his VF-22S was carrying on the Protoculture ruins near Darwent.  Had he followed orders, he could potentially have prevented the events of Macross Delta from occurring at all by disabling or destroying the Delta Wave System and Sigur Berrentzs.  There may have been some casualties from dropping a WMD near, but not on, a city... but a lot fewer than what his actions caused.

Instead, he deliberately dithered in enemy airspace hoping to be intercepted because he was worried about the risk to Darwent, and he got his wish.  He was intercepted.  While he was loitering over the city of Carlyle.  Yes, this bright spark of a man decided the most appropriate thing to do while carrying an armed dimensional warhead was to fly in circles in the airspace over a major city.  His superiors ordered him to proceed to target and he refused, so they overrode his controls but too late to do any good.  The bomb ended up being dropped by remote control for reasons unclear - possibly the NUNS brass were worried it would fall into Windermerean hands, or that the crash might cause it to detonate on the ground and cause more damage than the planned airburst - and Wright was subsequently shot down and killed.  So his well-intentioned idiocy not only prevented the military from destroying a Protoculture relic that could potentially kill the entire galactic population by accident even if it worked correctly, it also cost the lives of millions of Windermereans in Carlyle when the city was destroyed in the dimensional warhead's detonation, inflicted heavy casualties on the New UN Forces on the planet, blew up into a major scandal which caused both sides to label him as a war criminal, and directly motivated Windermere's subsequent invasion of the Brisingr cluster and all the death and destruction that followed.

If he'd followed orders, or even just objected on the ground and been replaced by another pilot, the events of Macross Delta would probably have never come to pass and many of the characters (esp. on the Windermere side) would not have grown up the horribly broken people they were since Keith's mentor and Bogue's family wouldn't have died.

"Nice job breaking it, hero."

Looks like Wright was wrong.

Seriously though, thank you for the clarification on that. I thought Wright had simply fumbled the bombing; I didn't realize he was a twit.

Edited June 12, 2022 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

Thing is Darwent is the capital of Windermere and right under it is the Sigur Berrentz. There would have still been civilian casualties. Wright Immelman flew away from Darwent. Out his control the MDE fell in Carlyle instead. Which near a NUNS base. 

He probably  thought it was overkill. The Aerial Knights was actually loosing the war at the time. However Brisingr  Alliance NUNS brass is afraid of what an immature leader like Grammia would do with Protoculture weapons. Diplomacy certainly failed this guy. He thought declaring war on the NUN who could help his planet's economy will get his way in allowing him to sell Fole Quartz. When the whole point of the treaty restrictions was to prevent a proliferation of Fold Quartz based weaponry to unwanted parties.

Case in point.

Spoiler

Where do you think Heimdall which attacked Windermere got its Fold Quarts for both the Battle Astrea Fold drive and Sv-303 Fold Wave systems? They are associated with Epsilon Foundation who just a year prior was maintaining the Sigur Berrentz and the Sv-262 for the Kingdom of Windermere. Windermere doesn't exactly have the cash so it likely sold Fold Quartz unde the table for its fleet. 

When Megaroad 04 discovered Windermere it wasn't exactly united. Due to their short lifespan all Grammia knew was Windermere united under his family's rule. He may be king on his planet but not to the rest of the galaxy. He took the wrong lesson in the 2nd Unifination which he participated in his youth. War won't get what the wants. Vindirance was an alliance of frontier planets against the tyrannical rule of Lactence. He didn't win that war on his own. He was just one pilot. NUNS didn't trust him as  leader as he was immature ignoring the rules based order of the Galaxy n the NUN. 

 

[twich]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Major Wright Immelmann's final (and fatal) mission was supposed to be to drop the dimensional warhead his VF-22S was carrying on the Protoculture ruins near Darwent.  Had he followed orders, he could potentially have prevented the events of Macross Delta from occurring at all by disabling or destroying the Delta Wave System and Sigur Berrentzs.  There may have been some casualties from dropping a WMD near, but not on, a city... but a lot fewer than what his actions caused.

Instead, he deliberately dithered in enemy airspace hoping to be intercepted because he was worried about the risk to Darwent, and he got his wish.  He was intercepted.  While he was loitering over the city of Carlyle.  Yes, this bright spark of a man decided the most appropriate thing to do while carrying an armed dimensional warhead was to fly in circles in the airspace over a major city.  His superiors ordered him to proceed to target and he refused, so they overrode his controls but too late to do any good.  The bomb ended up being dropped by remote control for reasons unclear - possibly the NUNS brass were worried it would fall into Windermerean hands, or that the crash might cause it to detonate on the ground and cause more damage than the planned airburst - and Wright was subsequently shot down and killed.  So his well-intentioned idiocy not only prevented the military from destroying a Protoculture relic that could potentially kill the entire galactic population by accident even if it worked correctly, it also cost the lives of millions of Windermereans in Carlyle when the city was destroyed in the dimensional warhead's detonation, inflicted heavy casualties on the New UN Forces on the planet, blew up into a major scandal which caused both sides to label him as a war criminal, and directly motivated Windermere's subsequent invasion of the Brisingr cluster and all the death and destruction that followed.

If he'd followed orders, or even just objected on the ground and been replaced by another pilot, the events of Macross Delta would probably have never come to pass and many of the characters (esp. on the Windermere side) would not have grown up the horribly broken people they were since Keith's mentor and Bogue's family wouldn't have died.

"Nice job breaking it, hero."

I guess this is an instance where official and correct subtitles on the show would have provided clarity as to what really happened. Thank you for clarifying.

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, twich said:

I guess this is an instance where official and correct subtitles on the show would have provided clarity as to what really happened. Thank you for clarifying.

The series really doesn't talk about the implications much.

They opened by hinting that it was a stupendously bad idea for Hayate to go anywhere near Windermere IV because he was Wright's son, but when it became important to the plot it was mainly focused on the fact that it was the NUNS, not Windermere, who dropped the bomb.  The series somewhat understandably avoids an in-depth examination of the fact that Wright's irresponsible and unprofessional behavior got a few million people killed and started a second interstellar war.

[pengbuzz]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The series really doesn't talk about the implications much.

They opened by hinting that it was a stupendously bad idea for Hayate to go anywhere near Windermere IV because he was Wright's son, but when it became important to the plot it was mainly focused on the fact that it was the NUNS, not Windermere, who dropped the bomb.  The series somewhat understandably avoids an in-depth examination of the fact that Wright's irresponsible and unprofessional behavior got a few million people killed and started a second interstellar war.

I wonder if Wright lived long enough to realize just how badly he messed up?

(trying to find the series to check, but not having much luck)

[twich]

You know, the more I think about, the more that I think it is kinda a bummer that the versions of both the Movie and the Series of Macross Delta led me to believe that Hayate's Father was this tragic, misunderstood man who was doing the right thing when he dropped the dimension eater off of his intended target.  And the tone and subs that I read gave me the impression that the story tellers wanted us, the audience to feel sorry for Hayate and by extension, his father for what happened because his father was just "trying to do the right thing".  The copy of the movie that I have is an official Malaysian release with English subtitles, so my thought was(maybe erroneously) that these would be the closest that I would get to official subtitles for the first Macross Delta movie.  So I am kinda wondering where the disconnect is?

So, on to mecha stuff!  Speculation-I have not seen the second Macross Delta movie in any fashion, so I wonder how powerful this SV-303 is as far as weapons, engine output and the like the so thoroughly trash Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfried's.  I believe I heard here from someone that the YF-29 piloted by Max was initially the only pilot/mecha that could hope to be on par with this new SV-303.  I cannot wait until the Macross Mecha Manual and the Macross Compendium are updated with official stats of these Variable Fighters!

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

57 minutes ago, twich said:

You know, the more I think about, the more that I think it is kinda a bummer that the versions of both the Movie and the Series of Macross Delta led me to believe that Hayate's Father was this tragic, misunderstood man who was doing the right thing when he dropped the dimension eater off of his intended target.

There is a saying... "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Wright Immelmann was a good man trying to do what he thought was right.  Meaning well is no guarantee that what you want to do to help is necessarily actually helpful or the right thing to do in that situation.  He tried to save as many lives as possible because he cared about the Windermereans, but his well-intentioned interference ended up getting millions of civilians killed because of how he went about it.  He waited until he was in the air with an armed dimensional warhead to object, which is very much too late to have a good way out. 

Dropping the bomb would make him a war criminal because those weapons are banned except under very special circumstances (that the situation met, but this was being done covertly). Surrender would leave a dimensional bomb in the hands of an unstable, highly irrational, and increasingly desperate autocrat on the losing side of a war and either get him tried for war crimes, treason, or both if he was still alive after the New UN Forces eventually won by attrition.  Not dropping it meant that he was playing the galaxy's most dangerous game of hot potato until one or both sides got sick of his antics and decided to shoot him down.  He waited until there was no good answer to have his particular crisis of conscience.

 

 

57 minutes ago, twich said:

And the tone and subs that I read gave me the impression that the story tellers wanted us, the audience to feel sorry for Hayate and by extension, his father for what happened because his father was just "trying to do the right thing". 

Like several other areas (e.g. Xaos unlawfully participating in a declared war) the series is kind of in a rush to skip past the unfortunate implications surrounding the designated heroes.  The series did make an effort to drive home that it was a tragedy and a totally senseless loss of life in general.  I'm not sure it necessarily tried to make the audience feel bad for Wright or Hayate given that the Windermereans suffered far worse, and they do go out of their way to show Hayate what happened.

 

 

57 minutes ago, twich said:

So, on to mecha stuff!  Speculation-I have not seen the second Macross Delta movie in any fashion, so I wonder how powerful this SV-303 is as far as weapons, engine output and the like the so thoroughly trash Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfried's.  I believe I heard here from someone that the YF-29 piloted by Max was initially the only pilot/mecha that could hope to be on par with this new SV-303.  I cannot wait until the Macross Mecha Manual and the Macross Compendium are updated with official stats of these Variable Fighters!

The Sv-303 Vivasvat is probably not all THAT uber... after all, while it does take out both the Aerial Knights and Delta Flight initially, neither side are exactly first-rate forces.  The Aerial Knights were almost entirely combat virgins prior to the 2067 war with the NUNG and all their most experienced pilots died in the war including the White Knight and the knight commander.  That Bogue is their top ace says a lot, given that he had never seen unstimulated combat before the events of episode 1 and he was the youngest and the least experienced member of Keith's unit.  Delta Flight is similarly bereft of its top ace's skills since Messer died in the war, and its elite troops are mostly washouts from local NUNS forces (not exactly top tier).  The unmanned Vivasvat has the advantage of being controlled remotely by a quantum supercomputer AI, so even if it doesn't outclass them too badly on specs it has reaction time and coordination ability in its corner.

The YF-29 supposedly stomps them, but then that's with Max at the stick... which goes beyond his usual one man army status to feeling like bullying, with The Strongest Pilot piloting The Strongest Valkyrie.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

10 hours ago, twich said:

I guess this is an instance where official and correct subtitles on the show would have provided clarity as to what really happened. Thank you for clarifying.

Twich

Part of the "fun" with Japanese is 'reading the air'.*  In different words, many things in Japanese are implied and must be inferred (not said explicitly/must be understood from context).  English, on the other hand, is the opposite.

So, if the person preparing the subtitles is not paying attention to 'the air' in a scene or series, the translation start missing things.  (And machine translation is notorious for this.)

The other complication, is that Macross Delta appears to be one of those series where some plot details were included in other media, for example manga.  So, even if those subtitles you are referring to are accurate, they're missing part of the full picture.  if I'm not mistaken, Seto is also providing an amalgamation of the event from various sources, too.

 

* https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200129-what-is-reading-the-air-in-japan

Edited June 13, 2022 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, sketchley said:

The other complication, is that Macross Delta appears to be one of those series where some plot details were included in other media, for example manga.  So, even if those subtitles you are referring to are accurate, they're missing part of the full picture.  if I'm not mistaken, Seto is also providing an amalgamation of the event from various sources, too.

There is that, yes... but what I was getting at has more to do with the problematic writing in Macross Delta.

Namely, the tendency of the show's writers to toss out dramatic plot twists and reveals with significant implications and completely forget about them by the end of the episode or even the end of the scene.  My favorite example of this being late in the Macross Delta TV series when the main trio are captured and put on trial.  Mirage tries to invoke prisoner of war protections under the spacefuture equivalent of the Geneva Conventions and is told flat out she can't because, as a mercenary, she's not a lawful combatant.  She is somehow surprised by this despite the fact that that should be common knowledge in her line of work, that she should have learned as much in officer training in the Spacy, and that it is not exactly a new legal development being that laws to that effect have been on the books since 1978's Protocol I almost 90 years previous.  The story tries to play this decision off as unfair despite presenting it as legally correct and then it is promptly forgotten as soon as the courtroom drama is over and never mentioned again.

It's the same deal with Wright.  Yeah, the series harps on at great length about what a great guy he was and that he was the one who unintentionally bombed Carlyle off the map... but it tries to hastily change the topic anytime the subject starts to stray towards Wright's own major contributions to the disaster.  He waited until he was in the air with an armed dimensional warhead to start refusing orders and stalled for time by refusing to leave a holding pattern over a major population center and arguing with flight control.  Wright may not have pulled the trigger, but he was the one who recklessly gambled with the lives of everyone in Carlyle and lost.  The series tries to put all the blame on the Spacy brass who overrode Wright's controls at the last second, but forgets that it established that it was at the last second and that Wright was the one who decided to do circles over a city while carrying the bomb.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, soon I'll be able to get back to work on the Historica project.

They've finally moved to correct my staffing levels, and I'll have a shiny new office in a few weeks.  I'll be able to get back to proper translation work and won't be working 60-70 hour weeks anymore, so I can focus on web design.

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah, soon I'll be able to get back to work on the Historica project.

They've finally moved to correct my staffing levels, and I'll have a shiny new office in a few weeks.  I'll be able to get back to proper translation work and won't be working 60-70 hour weeks anymore, so I can focus on web design.

Man, I feel for you! You must get home and just want to fall down unconscious on the sofa!

[Seto Kaiba]

19 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Man, I feel for you! You must get home and just want to fall down unconscious on the sofa!

I'm looking forward to better staffing, a new office, and no more gross abuse of OT, though I'll miss that sweet sweet overtime pay.

Should be settled in well ahead of the Macross Delta: Absolute Live!!!!!! blu-rays dropping.  I want those Sv-303 specs, darn it all.

I've got a ton of stuff from the Delta launch period pending translation that I've found while getting packed up, like the pamphlets from the Tomytec kits for the VF-31A and Sv-252.

[Sildani]

Hooray for sane work weeks!

[George Yamamori]

Just noticed there are no naval torpedos for the VFs. Maybe the VA-3M fulfills the ASW role?