HG and Robotech Debates, ep. 8

[Dynaman]

Anyways where there ever any toys made for the Rafalga, Dixon, or any of the designs from Tech Romancer?

Ben Dixon? If so then here he is. http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B0002ZI62W

edit - you might have to squint to see him in the cockpit...

EDIT EDIT, found another one.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=ben+dixon+robotech+action+figure&hl=en&prmd=imvnso&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1920&bih=1047&wrapid=tlif133060510753910&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17967844145476467498&sa=X&ei=OGxPT6aqG8afgwf9wo3NDQ&ved=0CEkQ8gIwAA#

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dynaman

[renegadeleader1]

Nah the Dixon was the parody of a gundam/GM that Kawamori designed for the fighting game Tech Romancer. I can't recall if there were ever any toys made from it. I really need to break my dreamcast back out and play it again.

Edit: At least I think he did the Dixon, I know for certain he made the Rafalga. Studio Nue did a lot of the mecha designs too.

Edit: Edit: my bad the instruction booklet spells them Dixen and Refaga.

Edited March 1, 2012 by renegadeleader1

[Jasonc]

I'm willing to argue Arimaki is more accomplished than Kawamori.

...

Thankyou for such a wonderfully pointless condescending post. I'll be sure to file it un D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. To make you feel a little better about yourself I'll play along for a little bit though.

1. You may not like M.A.S.K. but that's your own personal opinion, but it was popular enough to have a figurefrom it added to the G.I. Joe 25th line.

2. You claim its my fault the argument degraded into a contest, when I wasn't the one that started the "so and so did this and this" stuff which you yourself decided to add to.

3. It obvious my opinion counts to you other wise you wouldn't have responded in such a high and mighty holier than thou way.

4. My opinion is that Kawamori is not the end all be all greatest mechanical designer. There are other like Aramaki who I consider just as good if not greater.

5. Nobody outside of this forum gives a crap Kawamori did a car commercial, or did the mecha/plane designs on a video game/forgetable series like GPX. The problem is they're not iconic or memorable no matter how good they are. Nevermind how much I personally like them. Transforming fighters are what he's known for, its what he's cut his teeth on, its also what he's essentially typcast with.

6. Finally its a desert themed tactical diorama map not a sandbox

You're welcome. While it wasn't intended to be condescending, if it came off as that, oh well. I think what you're not figuring out, is that nobody said Kawamori was the be all, end all to mechanical design. That's your assumption, which now has made you the first syllables of that word. As for trying to make me feel "better about myself", again, another ass-umption that you've incorrectly made, but glad you could play along anyways.

1. I know that's my opinion.

2. If you read the first part of the quote above, those are your words. You brought up the argument, and when others started debating that claim, you posted again with your (paraphrasing) "Big whoop, Aramaki did .....,

3. I think you're getting mixed up with me correcting you, and you thinking that your opinion counts to me. Re-read.

4. That's fine if that is your opnion. I don't have a problem with your opinion, albeit quite misinformed. The facts are, while I like both, and have respect for both, Kawamori is the more successful of the designers, which many more times than not, translates to a better designer. You can still have your opinion, but usually the masses outweigh the one on this.

5. Again, you're very misinformed, it seems, about this topic. The armored core game franchis isn't some small walk in the park sketching he did. There are quite a few art books with all the Armored Core mecha, and the franchise has had quite a few releases. Not something people just throw together. You're trying to validate your argument by diluding the facts, and make his work not so important, so that's where you need to be corrected.

6. Sure....

[VF5SS]

Honestly Megazone 23 and Madox-01 aren't in the same league as Macross. Both exist to some extent because of Macross.

Remember, there was over a million 1/55 Tatatoku VF-1s sold all thanks to Kawamori's hand in the design. Watanabe Giken who did the prototype of the toy used Kawamori's own hand built model as a base. Just check out episode 38 of the Veef Show where Renato talks about this stuff.

[Keith]

You can argue that Kawamori isn't the end all be all in mechanical design "in your opinion," but in reality, he's pretty much top of the tier.

[Devil 505]

On top of what others have mentioned, Kawamori also worked on Eureka 7, Aquarion, Basquash, and was also asked to design a fighter for the new Ace Combat: Assault Horizon.

The plane in Assault Horizon is just a manned rehash of the QF-2200 Ghost.

[Old_Nash]

The plane in Assault Horizon is just a manned rehash of the QF-2200 Ghost.

Best Game air combat simulation perfomance.

[VF5SS]

The plane in Assault Horizon is just a manned rehash of the QF-2200 Ghost.

...no?

[Atharun]

If people want to talk about mecha designers, Hajime Katoki and Kunio Okawara have to be mentioned as well. Anyway back to the topic on hand, one of the things that does bother me Macross and Robotech was the use of CG models in both of their recent projects - Frontier and TSC. I would have liked to see the more "hand drawn" look used by Gundam. Capital ships CG sure but the fighters.....eh, wish we could see the other way.

[Keith]

CG is where it's at right now, Unicorn is pretty much a special case.

[Cobra__]

CG is where it's at right now, Unicorn is pretty much a special case.

Why would Unicorn be a special case ?

The japanese industry has been reluctant to embrace anime (tv or ova) produced entirely in CG. And thats because viewers/otakus want the feel of 2D.

I don't think we will see in the medium term any anime that's completely CG. Not going to happen. Films are a different matter though.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Cobra__

[Graham]

Actually, I think Macross is one of the few mecha animes where the mecha (VFs) actually look good in CG.

Graham

[Einherjar]

Why is this turning into an Aramaki vs. Kawamori contest?

Yeah, we all know who wins anyway. Harmony Gold (In the West).

[Mommar]

Actually, I think Macross is one of the few mecha animes where the mecha (VFs) actually look good in CG.

Graham

Considering Kawamori usually bases his designs off of real aircraft I think it makes sense they would look better in 3D then some of the other pretty ridiculous (but cool) designs out there.

[Atharun]

I know they did a CG appleseed series (or at least started one) but that seems to be the trend for that franchise and not the norm. And I do hope CG does not become the norm as the CG in Blassreiter was downright ugly IMO.

[Jasonc]

I'm just OK with the CG designs. In the case of Frontier, the CG was done very well, and the CG work looks fluid with the 2D stuff. Shadow Chronicles was jarring with their CG work, and it was very cut and paste. The ships, mecha, and all that, was like bricks in it.

[ps99042]

Yeah, CG definitely has it's place as long as it keeps you from realizing what you're watching is CG as seen in Frontier and Unicorn. I'm hoping LLA doesn't have whatever the hell SC had and it seems that LLA is gonna be a step in the right direction based on the teaser that was smuggled online but I'm not holding my breath that it'll be anywhere near Frontier or Unicorn.

[Atharun]

I guess for me with series I like that have CG, it doesn't stop me from liking them but the visuals can be jarring. Shows like Samurai 7, Aquarion, and ESPECIALLY Blassreiter. I like the series but the difference in animation is so obvious especially with smooth animation and character designs.

[renegadeleader1]

The worst CG I've seen integrated into 2D animation(no not shadow chronicles, not by far) would have to be Divergence Eve, and its spioff Misaki Chronicles. We are talking playstation one(PSX) level graphics here in a show made in 2003. That and the character designs being rejects from hentai with GGG cup breasts do the actual plot a great diservice which is deadly serious and has much in common with Event Horizon.

I'm trying to slug through Blassreiter because the plot is interesting, but the CG can be to much. Its not completely the quality(though that's a big chunk) its also because they use several differents styles of CG that clash. One moment you have a 2D character against a screensaver looking background, riding a bike that is on the level of advent children quality detail, fighting a monster with starship trooper roughnecks chronicles quality, while cel shaded cars right out of Initial D passby. That makes it quite painful.

Vandread wasn't that bad or jarring mostly because it avoided putting 2D characters on the screen at the same time and when it did it was handled fairly well, and the plot really outshown its technical shortcommings.

As for Shadow Chonicles...(sigh) its not the worst cg out there, it is dated though for its time.

[Keith]

That's a bold faced lie. The shadow Chronicles wasn't dated for it's time, it was dated for 1991!

[UN Spacy]

Actually, I think Macross is one of the few mecha animes where the mecha (VFs) actually look good in CG.

Graham

I agree...I didn't see too many folks complaining about the CG VF's in Frontier.

[Zor Primus]

I'm just OK with the CG designs. In the case of Frontier, the CG was done very well, and the CG work looks fluid with the 2D stuff. Shadow Chronicles was jarring with their CG work, and it was very cut and paste. The ships, mecha, and all that, was like bricks in it.

Bricks and rips...

[renegadeleader1]

Like I said I've seen worse.

Divergence Eve

Best I've seen is the 3 second shot of the colony cylinder from Char's Counterattack. I never noticed untill I read about it in a magazine.

[VF5SS]

hay guys, what's going on in this thread

[Einherjar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXD8z_dORc

A great leagacy in crystal dreams. Edited March 3, 2012 by Einherjar

[Cobra__]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXD8z_dORc

A great leagacy in crystal dreams.

Nice concept, bad execution and horrible CG.

[Old_Nash]

Nice concept, bad execution and horrible CG.

I dunno.

Robotech with an animation like this. To what would be acceptable.

P.S. The girl sings like Basara

[Jasonc]

Nice concept, bad execution and horrible CG.

You thought Robotech 3000 was a nice concept? I understand what they were trying to do, but the fact that the story takes place a whopping 700 years into the future, and the technology looks worse than the Mospeada technology, it didn't make any sense at all. To add, part of the "concept", was to use that style of CG, which was already old, and very stiff looking. I guess you can say it's a nice concept, if your goal was for the majority of the people interested to hate it, and you want to get yourself fired. In that case, I'd say it's a very good concept, and it was what helped give Carl Macek the boot at Harmony Gold.

[Keith]

You thought Robotech 3000 was a nice concept? I understand what they were trying to do, but the fact that the story takes place a whopping 700 years into the future, and the technology looks worse than the Mospeada technology, it didn't make any sense at all. To add, part of the "concept", was to use that style of CG, which was already old, and very stiff looking. I guess you can say it's a nice concept, if your goal was for the majority of the people interested to hate it, and you want to get yourself fired. In that case, I'd say it's a very good concept, and it was what helped give Carl Macek the boot at Harmony Gold.

Come to think of it, that's the source of all the con panel "secrecy" now. As you remember:

Comic-con preview of Robotech 3000 ----> widespread fan hate on the internet = firing of Carl Macek & canning of hte project.

OMG it makes perfect sense, why didn't I see this before. The reason Yune & gang ban forum discussions & panel info from leaking out is so their bosses don't fire them immediately

[VF5SS]

Fan opinion should never matter that much if you are trying to reboot a franchise. I think they had no confidence in the product and wished to wash their hands of it and this backlash was just a scapegoat.

[Keith]

Fan opinion should never matter that much if you are trying to reboot a franchise. I think they had no confidence in the product and wished to wash their hands of it and this backlash was just a scapegoat.

I don't know, I seem to recall a pretty universal pan on that preview (rightfully so mind you). In this case, fan opinion may have very well mattered that much.

[anime52k8]

Best I've seen is the 3 second shot of the colony cylinder from Char's Counterattack. I never noticed untill I read about it in a magazine.

No it's not. The CG colony in CCA looks like crap. The model was ok but it's movement through the scene was clunky as hell despite being a solid cylinder that had nothing to do but rotate and pan across the screen for 5 seconds. It was pointless and looked completely out of place compared to the rest of the movie.

[Jasonc]

Fan opinion should never matter that much if you are trying to reboot a franchise. I think they had no confidence in the product and wished to wash their hands of it and this backlash was just a scapegoat.

So, if everyone hates it, it shouldn't matter because you're rebooting a franchise? What's actually plausible, is that after a third failed attempt at a new Robotech series, feature, or whatnot, and A LOT of money put into the franchise with no real return, they dumped Macek, along with the project that the fans clearly didn't like. I'm also quite certain Frank Agrama doesn't need a scapegoat to fire anyone, or stop a project.

The thing is, people spoke up about the RT3K project, and it did get back to HG. Tommy, Steve, and Kevin have been on the defense, attempting to keep that from possibly reoccurring, I'm sure they know the power of the internet, and might be a reason of why their (piss poor) attempt at marketing, has been relegated to conventions.

[chrisk]

So Warner Brothers is distributing both the Akira™ live action flick and Bleach the Movie™? And Transformers 4 is in the works?

What about Robotech™ live action movie? I keep hearing this guy named Tommy Yune and Kevin McKeever talk about it being made as we speak, but I think they're lying to me...

[Keith]

So Warner Brothers is distributing both the Akira™ live action flick and Bleach the Movie™? And Transformers 4 is in the works?

What about Robotech™ live action movie? I keep hearing this guy named Tommy Yune and Kevin McKeever talk about it being made as we speak, but I think they're lying to me...

Here ya go!