HG and Robotech Debates

[Jasonc]

That question is an interesting one. If HG went under, or Frank goes and they start selling off the assets, do those series go back to Tatsunoko, or do they transfer to the buyer? Probably all stipulated by what was in writing, but it would seem logical that at that point in HG's life, should it happen, Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA, would all go back to Tatsunoko.

[Seto Kaiba]

That question is an interesting one. If HG went under, or Frank goes and they start selling off the assets, do those series go back to Tatsunoko, or do they transfer to the buyer? Probably all stipulated by what was in writing, but it would seem logical that at that point in HG's life, should it happen, Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA, would all go back to Tatsunoko.

One would assume, given Tatsunoko's long experience in the industry, that their lawyer(s) would've had the sense to ensure that the terms of their licensing agreement with Harmony Gold USA would include some kind of provision to either allow them to reclaim the rights to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada in the event that the licensee went under, or at least to give them "first dibs" if their licensee tried to sell off the rights to cover their losses.

[Darkwater]

One would assume, given Tatsunoko's long experience in the industry, that their lawyer(s) would've had the sense to ensure that the terms of their licensing agreement with Harmony Gold USA would include some kind of provision to either allow them to reclaim the rights to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada in the event that the licensee went under, or at least to give them "first dibs" if their licensee tried to sell off the rights to cover their losses.

But keep in mind these agreements were written over 25 years ago, when there weren't as many exports as there are now, so who knows if they had the foresight?

Also, Harmony Gold could shut down the way it operates right now, but still exist in name only while one of Frank Agrama's heirs collects checks. Or, maybe they could sell it. None of us have seen the original agreements, so it's all speculation.

[blackconvoy_D01]

But keep in mind these agreements were written over 25 years ago, when there weren't as many exports as there are now, so who knows if they had the foresight?

Also, Harmony Gold could shut down the way it operates right now, but still exist in name only while one of Frank Agrama's heirs collects checks. Or, maybe they could sell it. None of us have seen the original agreements, so it's all speculation.

According to Manta.com HG only bring in $2.8 million in revenue per year. If their primary focus is real estate, then that is where the majority of their revenue comes from. Meaning that RT is not the main money maker for them. If HG were to go on the block I would assume that their licenses for Macross/ MOSPEADA, etc would either return to Japaan as previously mentioned, or they could go up for grabs rather inexpensively.

[Legioss]

Anyone notice HG essentially comfirmed Toho has the rights to DYRL? They seem real butthurt over it too, going on about confused rights and ongoing lawsuits.

[Keith]

You know,I just wonder how much HG would sell the Macross license for anyways. I'm sure this makes me a "lying Macross purist" for even considering it.

Right now HG is like Kahn on the bridge of hte Reliant right after Kirk & tricked him into going into the Motari Nebula & blasted the poo out of him. No hope of survival, but still willing to set off Genesis out of spite.

[Robelwell202]

This post will probably get ignored like all the others I put in the thread, but...

HG sucks. That's all there is to it. There's only so many ways to say it.

(BTW: It was the Mutara nebula)

[Seto Kaiba]

But keep in mind these agreements were written over 25 years ago, when there weren't as many exports as there are now, so who knows if they had the foresight?

Oh, granted... but even back then, Tatsunoko Pro. had a fair amount of experience in distributing its work overseas. By the time the licensing agreement with Harmony Gold was drafted, Tatsunoko had already been licensing its work to distributors overseas for a good 16 years... and they're no strangers to success in that arena either, what with their earlier forays into international distribution being Battle of the Planets and Speed Racer. I would bet real money that their lawyers were on the ball enough to include at least some provision to give Tatsunoko control over a potential sale or first dibs on buying the rights back if Harmony Gold tried to sell.

According to Manta.com HG only bring in $2.8 million in revenue per year. If their primary focus is real estate, then that is where the majority of their revenue comes from. Meaning that RT is not the main money maker for them. If HG were to go on the block I would assume that their licenses for Macross/ MOSPEADA, etc would either return to Japaan as previously mentioned, or they could go up for grabs rather inexpensively.

Eh... present circumstances being what they are, I would be inclined to suspect that if Harmony Gold went under and the Agrama family decided not to hang onto Robotech, Tatsunoko would definitely either try to reclaim the rights via contract provisions for that situation (if any were included) or would buy back the rights to the original Macross series simply to give themselves a bargaining point in any future dealings or conflicts with Big West and Studio Nue.

[terry the lone wolf]

Anyone notice HG essentially comfirmed Toho has the rights to DYRL? They seem real butthurt over it too, going on about confused rights and ongoing lawsuits.

I posted here that I felt TOHO had the international rights to DYRL. Now this opens up some possibilities: HG could pony up money and lease it from TOHO. Big West couldn't stop it because TOHO can already distribute anyway they see fit (they released the edited Clash). It could be a deal similar to Tatsunoko's where there won't be any new animation based on old designs but fall under HG's "everywhere but Japan" merchandising of the old Macross animation deal. If HG can't afford it you still have Warner Brothers who could distribute it through TOHO. WB could cut a side deal with HG utilize their staff, bring back some of the old RT voices, & bang! A brand new English dub of DYRL ripe and ready for the western home video market.

Edited July 10, 2011 by terry the lone wolf

[blackconvoy_D01]

I posted here that I felt TOHO had the international rights to DYRL. Now this opens up some possibilities: HG could pony up money and lease it from TOHO. Big West couldn't stop it because TOHO can already distribute anyway they see fit (they released the edited Clash). It could be a deal similar to Tatsunoko's where there won't be any new animation based on old designs but fall under HG's "everywhere but Japan" merchandising of the old Macross animation deal. If HG can't afford it you still have Warner Brothers who could distribute it through TOHO. WB could cut a side deal with HG utilize their staff, bring back some of the old RT voices, & bang! A brand new English dub of DYRL ripe and ready for the western home video market.

Speaking of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0iTNAEp2M

This bloke uploaded the whole film in one shot.

[Jasonc]

That animation still holds up today. I don't know how long that will be up, as Bandai is usually pretty quick to get those off youtube, but it's still very good, even by today's standards. Of course, if you're using the HG standard, then this is the greatest animation of ALL TIME!!! Speaking of animation, this has been floating around already. I didn't shoot this, but saw several cameras open during the filming. This is but one. You have to download it.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q5GZYOSM

Edited July 10, 2011 by Jasonc

[1st Border Red Devil]

Speaking of animation, this has been floating around already. I didn't shoot this, but saw several cameras open during the filming.

Well that certainly doesn't look like a film comic, unless I'm using the wrong definition. Oddly, looks BETTER than Shadow Chronicles which I didn't think was possible. Those Garfish actually looked like Garfish-class ships instead of some clunky CGI block and the explosions were nice regular anime ones. Why the hell can't they go back and redo Shadow Chronicles like that so as to make it go from being a steaming pile of vapid drek that makes you want to gouge out your eyeballs to merely mediocre storytelling?

I'm just concerned about the Continuity (hah, Tommy and Continuity don't belong in the same sentence). SX.83 is supposedly Reflex Point according to Tommy (and The Art of Shadow Chronicles) but the scenes with the mounds open and flowers spreading look like from The Invid Invasion while the pilot in the SFA-5 ConBat looks to be Lancer during The Second Reclamation Mission.

[Duke Togo]

Anyone notice HG essentially comfirmed Toho has the rights to DYRL? They seem real butthurt over it too, going on about confused rights and ongoing lawsuits.

When/where did they do this?

[UN Spacy]

That animation still holds up today. I don't know how long that will be up, as Bandai is usually pretty quick to get those off youtube, but it's still very good, even by today's standards. Of course, if you're using the HG standard, then this is the greatest animation of ALL TIME!!! Speaking of animation, this has been floating around already. I didn't shoot this, but saw several cameras open during the filming. This is but one. You have to download it.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q5GZYOSM

You gotta love the blatant VF-4 ripoff.

[blackconvoy_D01]

That animation still holds up today. I don't know how long that will be up, as Bandai is usually pretty quick to get those off youtube, but it's still very good, even by today's standards. Of course, if you're using the HG standard, then this is the greatest animation of ALL TIME!!! Speaking of animation, this has been floating around already. I didn't shoot this, but saw several cameras open during the filming. This is but one. You have to download it.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q5GZYOSM

It looks good. Not convention exclusive good. But good enough to gardner internet interest. Id like to see more. Come on stooges get off your asses and get to work... Harder!

[1st Border Red Devil]

You gotta love the blatant VF-4 ripoff.

And the VF-4 was obviously inspired from the SR-71's body shape. You can't 'rip off' something that was in-turn inspired by something else.

[Jasonc]

The animation does look pretty decent...like I said, at least better than Shadow Chronicles. I don't think they need to redo that movie, as the story sucks to no end. While this doesn't show much, it does, at this point, seem to confirm that they moved away from using some, or more of the LLA footage as this side story. It also seems to totally negate the picture shown last year of Sera holding the shield and gun, as this seems to take place before her transformation.

Overall, it's OK. It doesn't move me into a sense of wow, and maybe that's just because it's kinda rehashing old story and old designs (they can't seem to do anything totally original, can they). I guess we'll see more as time goes. The animation looks passable at this point, but there are some parts of it that look very cheap, like the blinking thrusters (now that I mentioned it, HG, you can fix it), and the super saturated green in the ship. Trust me, it looked much heavier in person, than on the camera footage this person shot. Maybe this is just some unfinished stuff.

[Einherjar]

What's up with the spooky music?

You gotta love the blatant VF-4 ripoff.

The RDF passed on that design for the Alphas.

http://www.robotech.com/infopedia/mecha/viewmecha.php?id=60

Guessing that's a prototype that underperformed in live combat or freely using material from the show that they have rights to in order to help form continuity. You'll really know how much the VF-4 (and Zentradi?) sucked in Invid-style combat in 2011-2012-20XX.

Come on stooges get off your asses and get to work... Harder!

They're paying someone else to do these. You should be saying pay these animators MORE for better quality.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

You gotta love the blatant VF-4 ripoff.

Given that this side-story is supposedly covering Lancer's backstory... smart money says it's one of these:

Not transformable, just ugly. Tommy did a transforming version and called it the VF-13 Gamma Fighter, but it never made the cut for Shadow Chronicles. As per the comics they seem to be adapting, the "Conbat" non-transformable fighter was what the REF forces were using (in the unexplained absence of Alpha fighters) during the ill-fated 1st Earth Reclamation mission.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[EXO]

That's the problem with their work. They're just distorting existing designs instead of just bulding from scratch. I don't see the importance of visual continuity when the original 85 eps. never had it to begin with.

The animation is decent when seen with that much blur, short instances and in between 2 shoulders. I'll make sure to wear fogged glasses and sit behind 2 rather friendly guys if I ever decide on watching this series. But how will the scenes look once they are extended to contain dialogue, story and require action to that we're accustomed to?

[Jasonc]

Given that this side-story is supposedly covering Lancer's backstory... smart money says it's one of these:

Not transformable, just ugly. Tommy did a transforming version and called it the VF-13 Gamma Fighter, but it never made the cut for Shadow Chronicles. As per the comics they seem to be adapting, the "Conbat" non-transformable fighter was what the REF forces were using (in the unexplained absence of Alpha fighters) during the ill-fated 1st Earth Reclamation mission.

Yep, that makes sense...take out all the most advanced fighters you have out of the equation, and lead a reclamation force full of half-assed, one mode fighters against a superior fighting force, to do it. Afterall, that's what any smart general would do, right?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yep, that makes sense...take out all the most advanced fighters you have out of the equation, and lead a reclamation force full of half-assed, one mode fighters against a superior fighting force, to do it. Afterall, that's what any smart general would do, right?

Oh, it makes perfect sense when you consider that Admiral/Major General Rick Hunter is an incompetent pillock... but really, this is probably one case where we can't blame Tommy for something that doesn't make sense.

His hands are tied because the original Mospeada, and thus Robotech's New Generation, establishes that [Yellow/Lance] Belmont was flying one during his time with the Mars Forces and shows that he was flying one when he was shot down and crashed. Robotech's one (recent) attempt to make it more Robotech-esque was to add a storage compartment for a Cyclone on that bulge on the back end of the plane in the Robotech: Invasion comic miniseries.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[1st Border Red Devil]

Yep, that makes sense...take out all the most advanced fighters you have out of the equation

Presumably either all destroyed fighting The Masters or with the REF in deep space...

lead a reclamation force full of half-assed, one mode fighters against a superior fighting force

Yea, but the Invid have spit-ball range weaponry. And the REF has numerical superiority at the final battle (not to mention hordes of Drones). Presumably they stay ahead of the Invid on the logistical game.

[Jasonc]

Oh, it makes perfect sense when you consider that Admiral/Major General Rick Hunter is an incompetent pillock... but really, this is probably one case where we can't blame Tommy for something that doesn't make sense.

His hands are tied because the original Mospeada, and thus Robotech's New Generation, establishes that [Yellow/Lance] Belmont was flying one during his time with the Mars Forces and shows that he was flying one when he was shot down and crashed. Robotech's one (recent) attempt to make it more Robotech-esque was to add a storage compartment for a Cyclone on that bulge on the back end of the plane in the Robotech: Invasion comic miniseries.

That, I can agree on. Could've done it where Lancer wasn't supposed to go out in one, as they weren't meant to be used on the reclamation mission, but he does anyways. Something like that. It would've made more sense than throwing your men to the lions.

[Seto Kaiba]

Presumably either all destroyed fighting The Masters or with the REF in deep space...

Nope, about all the comics they seem to be adapting say on that note is to briefly acknowledge that they were trained in the use of Alpha fighters and were expecting to use them, but they suddenly weren't available.

Yea, but the Invid have spit-ball range weaponry. And the REF has numerical superiority at the final battle (not to mention hordes of Drones). Presumably they stay ahead of the Invid on the logistical game.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, the REF's weaponry is no better... and the series repeatedly and quite unambiguously does show that the Invid are the ones with the overwhelming numerical advantage. The same, frankly, goes for the Shadow Chronicles version of events, wherein the REF is so thoroughly curb-stomped that 80% of their fleet doesn't come back. The advantage they acquired for the final battle was the Shadow fighter and its passive stealthiness (in the series, active stealth in RTSC). That's all.

That, I can agree on. Could've done it where Lancer wasn't supposed to go out in one, as they weren't meant to be used on the reclamation mission, but he does anyways. Something like that. It would've made more sense than throwing your men to the lions.

That's about where they were, really... except they didn't bother to explain it except to briefly acknowledge that they were supposed to use Alpha fighters but didn't have any to hand for some reason. Throwing men to the lions seems right about Hunter's speed tho.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Nope, about all the comics they seem to be adapting say on that note is to briefly acknowledge that they were trained in the use of Alpha fighters and were expecting to use them, but they suddenly weren't available.

Granted. I'm trying to think of ACTUAL reasons that make sense. Tommy Logic^tm rarely makes sense.

[VF5SS]

who let mr. space helicopter back in

[Seto Kaiba]

Granted. I'm trying to think of ACTUAL reasons that make sense. Tommy Logic^tm rarely makes sense.

You should know better than most that Robotech doesn't run on logical answers... it runs on bullsh*t and "because I said so".

who let mr. space helicopter back in

I'm wondering that myself... last I heard, he had no posting privileges, so this came as quite a surprise.

[Einherjar]

That's the problem with their work. They're just distorting existing designs instead of just bulding from scratch. I don't see the importance of visual continuity when the original 85 eps. never had it to begin with.

There is an extreme sense of irony about this to me. Despite of all the variant designs that have come around for mecha and ships in each era, due to the structure of the narrative all the variants made during one era are going to become obsolete, ineffective, completely destroyed, or not that popular to use in-universe eventually due to the transition from one show to another (or simply, @SS pull). So the VF-4 look alike may be jarring, but its whole purpose could be to just get destroyed to make way for the official Alpha design. Ironically, it also works the other way around in official continuations like Shadow Chronicles with the Shadow Fighter; a variant of the Alpha with superior technology, successor maybe, but so seriously flawed in-universe (and in real life ) that the RDF had to go back to plain Alphas or the ill-defined Super Shadow Fighter.

In a sense, they were all designed to fail, so why care? It's art imitating life. Just more mecha that will have the most use in a Palladium book afterwards.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Einherjar

[blackconvoy_D01]

I wonder if when it comes out will there be a fandub version as MOSPEADA?

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] due to the structure of the narrative all the variants made during one era are going to become obsolete, ineffective, completely destroyed, or not that popular to use in-universe eventually due to the transition from one show to another [...]. So the VF-4 look alike may be jarring, but its whole purpose could be to just get destroyed to make way for the official Alpha design.

Eh... no. As I illustrated earlier, the aircraft in question is not an original design for this "side story" project... it's a holdover from the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA. It's the very same model of fighter that Yellow Belmont ("Lancer" in Robotech) was found in after being shot down by the Inbit (Invid). It's not a transforming fighter either, so it's not really a part of Robotech's messed-up and highly contrived VF design lineage either.

[Jasonc]

Eh... no. As I illustrated earlier, the aircraft in question is not an original design for this "side story" project... it's a holdover from the original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA. It's the very same model of fighter that Yellow Belmont ("Lancer" in Robotech) was found in after being shot down by the Inbit (Invid). It's not a transforming fighter either, so it's not really a part of Robotech's messed-up and highly contrived VF design lineage either.

Yep, that's where this thing came from. As far as working Lancer into the story, they could've also said that this ship was more for high speed recon, and he just got shot down. He doesn't seem like the soldier type anyways, and his type of ride armor would support a recon story as well. Ugh, HG, you suck at creating story, even for story that's 90% written already.

[chrisk]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q5GZYOSM

The animation is decent when seen with that much blur, short instances and in between 2 shoulders. I'll make sure to wear fogged glasses and sit behind 2 rather friendly guys if I ever decide on watching this series. But how will the scenes look once they are extended to contain dialogue, story and require action to that we're accustomed to?

They're just distorting existing designs instead of just building from scratch. I don't see the importance of visual continuity when the original 85 eps. never had it to begin with.

Uh-oh... McKeever will be quite upset when he reads this thread since it sorta throws his whole "exclusive" marketing campaign outta whack. Interesting footage though... a series of quick cuts, canned 80's anime explosions, flapping mouths and better cel-shading. I have to say, it looks like a really well-made fanfic movie. Since this is a Tommy Yune joint, it's going to be devoid of character and be totally uninspired. But with dearth of new story content for five years, this fans will lap this junk up.

As if they had a choice.

Edited July 11, 2011 by chrisk

[Seto Kaiba]

Yep, that's where this thing came from. As far as working Lancer into the story, they could've also said that this ship was more for high speed recon, and he just got shot down. He doesn't seem like the soldier type anyways, and his type of ride armor would support a recon story as well. Ugh, HG, you suck at creating story, even for story that's 90% written already.

's because they're treading OLD ground here.

As in Mospeada, the Robotech "original" series spent an entire episode on the "big reveal" of Lt. Belmont's past and how he ended up marooned on occupied Earth and operating covertly as a female lounge singer. That was rehashed when Tommy took over with an entire comic miniseries devoted to telling a more detailed version of the same damn story, which is apparently being rehashed again for this side story nonsense. Given that they seem to be playing this completely straight and blindly adhering to the idea that his group had no Legioss/Alpha fighters when it attacked, I'm guessing laziness is a major motivation... that and a desire to avoid hacking off the remaining fans by further tampering with the series.

(The tried and true Robotech production philosophy of "if they liked it once, they'll love it twice!")

Edited July 11, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

That's the problem with their work. They're just distorting existing designs instead of just bulding from scratch. I don't see the importance of visual continuity when the original 85 eps. never had it to begin with.

See, I keep tellin' all you folks out there, a reboot would solve all of that. No need to milk existing designs for all their worth or try to explain visual discontinuity when you can recreate it all the way you like it. But then you would have to find competent people for that...