HG and Robotech Debates

[VF5SS]

They won't touch Southern Cross as long as Big West has a stake in it.

[azrael]

They won't touch Southern Cross as long as Big West has a stake in it.

They can touch Southern Cross all they want. But they know there's no money coming from that series. They want Macross for the masses but they can't do much with that except toys and books. So that just leaves Mospeada.

[Darkwater]

You know, they used to feed me this footage at conventions, hoping I'd put it on my site, which I did. Then fans would ask why they had to see some crappy shaky-cam footage on a fan site instead of something official in RT.com. The only response I ever saw from Tommy (which I wasn't supposed to see) on that was something he said in the RT.com mod's forum, where he admitted to using my site as "viral" marketing. These were also in the days before YouTube, and you had to host .mov files yourself.

The clip is still up, and they probably could have had it pulled by now, so perhaps their strategy is "Let's make it super-forbidden and tempt people into recording it so that the fans will see it and say 'I want more!'" Then again, it has a whopping 223 views so far, which proves that buzz from a few internet forums mean NOTHING in terms of sales. Still, I feel safe knowing that they patrol them all.

[1st Border Red Devil]

But they know there's no money coming from that series.

Of course there is no money because they put none in. Why bother trying when you can sit on your @ss and claim that not doing anything gives you the very result you predicted.

[Gubaba]

Of course there is no money because they put none in. Why bother trying when you can sit on your @ss and claim that not doing anything gives you the very result you predicted.

Well...let's be frank here. The show was cancelled in Japan, and failed to pick up an audience later. Yes, it came out on DVD, but it didn't do very well. The majority of Robotech fans aren't terribly into it, either.

How much money put into it do you think it would take to get people to like it?

[EXO]

Did they have Dana in SC? I know they supposedly had Louie.

[1st Border Red Devil]

The show was cancelled in Japan

Which is irrelevant to this discussion.

failed to pick up an audience later

Baloney.

Yes, it came out on DVD, but it didn't do very well.

Absolutely and demonstrably FALSE. I asked Matt Greenfield about this POINT BLANK at GenCon years ago and he said that it was bullsh@t.

The majority of Robotech fans aren't terribly into it, either.

Got any kind of proof that the majority of Robotech fans aren't into it? It did live on in The Sentinels, something that (just going by signatures on a petition) shows that a significant portion of fans want it.

How much money put into it do you think it would take to get people to like it?

Well they sure as hell could at least ATTEMPT to give it exposure more than simply ignoring it. They didn't even attempt to produce a single non-transformable super-posable to gauge interest. McKeever told me years ago that, much to my astonishment, they are basing this all on toy sales from the 80s (when there were a total of 1 human mecha and 1 enemy mecha toy, some figures and 2 accessories). Whatever in the hell toy sales from the 80s has to do with now, I have no clue.

[Keith]

Not exactly true. There is nothing prohibiting them from using the Southern Cross designs either. They just won't because Tommy Yune cannot think outside the box in any way, shape or form.

Actually, considering they haven't touched any SC stock footage in their SC making of feature, I think there may be a problem there.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Actually, considering they haven't touched any SC stock footage in their SC making of feature, I think there may be a problem there.

Then why did Tommy Yune apparently talk about releasing just the Southern Cross portion of Robotech the Movie?

[Gubaba]

Which is irrelevant to this discussion.

Baloney.

Absolutely and demonstrably FALSE. I asked Matt Greenfield about this POINT BLANK at GenCon years ago and he said that it was bullsh@t.

Got any kind of proof that the majority of Robotech fans aren't into it? It did live on in The Sentinels, something that (just going by signatures on a petition) shows that a significant portion of fans want it.

Well they sure as hell could at least ATTEMPT to give it exposure more than simply ignoring it. They didn't even attempt to produce a single non-transformable super-posable to gauge interest. McKeever told me years ago that, much to my astonishment, they are basing this all on toy sales from the 80s (when there were a total of 1 human mecha and 1 enemy mecha toy, some figures and 2 accessories). Whatever in the hell toy sales from the 80s has to do with now, I have no clue.

If it picked up such a massive audience, where are the sequels? The merchandise? The pachinko games? The only people in Japan who know Southern Cross are big Macross fans who heard it was incorporated into Robotech, and that's pretty much it. It failed to pick up an audience here.

As for Robotech fans, I'd suggest that most people want Sentinels, not because it has the Southern Cross links, but because it has Rick Hunter in it. That's just my suspicion, obviously. I suppose I could go and ask, but if RT.com is representative of the fandom, then it certainly SEEMS like the show is less popular than the other two.

[1st Border Red Devil]

If it picked up such a massive audience, where are the sequels? The merchandise? The pachinko games?

What in the hell does that have to do with NOW? Nothing. Its success or lack of it in Japan is IRRELEVANT!

The only people in Japan who know Southern Cross are big Macross fans who heard it was incorporated into Robotech, and that's pretty much it.

Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

It failed to pick up an audience here.

Again, Matt Greenfield said otherwise going by the DVD sales. Are you saying you know more than the man who ran ADV Films?

I suppose I could go and ask, but if RT.com is representative of the fandom, then it certainly SEEMS like the show is less popular than the other two.

Less popular means nothing. It is not a gauge of how well or bad will sell. It is especially irrelevant if you don't even try and see if there IS a market.

[Keith]

Then why did Tommy Yune apparently talk about releasing just the Southern Cross portion of Robotech the Movie?

-Why does Tommy claim they can release any Macross series they want?

-Why does Tommy not know how breast physics (or any other kind ofr that matter work)?

-Why can't Tommy seem to make a production within an even remotely reasonable timeframe?

-Why didn't Tommy use words like "Zentradi," or anything that even remotely resembled a Macross or Southern Cross character in SC ("Louis is about as distant from the original SC character design as their version of "Rick Hunter" was).

As to your question, much like "The Sentinels" that was a pre-existing use of that footage. However, considering he hasn't, chances are he's just full of more B.S.

[Gubaba]

What in the hell does that have to do with NOW? Nothing. Its success or lack of it in Japan is IRRELEVANT!

Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't think it is. You want Southern Cross transformable toys, yes? And all the Toynami transformable toys are based on ones already created for the Japanese market. With no fully-transformable Spartas toy to model from, I'm not sure Toynami can engineer one affordably.

Again, Matt Greenfield said otherwise going by the DVD sales. Are you saying you know more than the man who ran ADV Films?

What does ADV have to do with it? Again, I was talking about Japan.

Less popular means nothing. It is not a gauge of how well or bad will sell. It is especially irrelevant if you don't even try and see if there IS a market.

Huh. Does that mean I should expect a Hasegawa Fire Valkyrie...?

[1st Border Red Devil]

I don't think it is. You want Southern Cross transformable toys, yes? And all the Toynami transformable toys are based on ones already created for the Japanese market. With no fully-transformable Spartas toy to model from, I'm not sure Toynami can engineer one affordably.

Ummm, did you forget this:

What does ADV have to do with it? Again, I was talking about Japan.

Did you COMPLETELY miss the point of this conversation? I've been talking about Harmony Gold and its situation vis-a-vis Southern Cross this whole time. What does or does not happen in Japan has no effect on it.

Huh. Does that mean I should expect a Hasegawa Fire Valkyrie...?

Gubaba, you're aren't this dim. I have said, in more than 2 posts now, that Japan and its situation with Southern Cross is IRRELEVANT! Harmony Gold has refused to gauge interest in Southern Cross toys AT ALL. They could have released a set of super-poseables (3 Spartas, 2 Ajax, 3 Logan) to gauge interest. The moulds don't cost THAT much. I know, I checked on the prices at one time.

Edited July 12, 2011 by 1st Border Red Devil

[Gubaba]

Ummm, did you forget this:

No, I didn't. Which is why I said "FULLY TRANSFORMABLE." And anyway, it's rather ugly, isn't it?

Did you COMPLETELY miss the point of this conversation? I've been talking about Harmony Gold and its situation vis-a-vis Southern Cross this whole time. What does or does not happen in Japan has no effect on it.

Gubaba, you're aren't this dim. I have said, in more than 2 posts now, that Japan and its situation with Southern Cross is IRRELEVANT! Harmony Gold has refused to gauge interest in Southern Cross toys AT ALL. They could have released a set of super-poseables (3 Spartas, 2 Ajax, 3 Logan) to gauge interest. The moulds don't cost THAT much. I know, I checked on the prices at one time.

No. You said HG isn't throwing money at it. I said that it failed here, and it failed in America. Failing in Japan gives HG a precedent of failure, and also means there's no real secondary market to fall back on, and no Japanese toy company willing to work together with Toynami.

In other words, you say it's irrelevant, and I disagree.

[1st Border Red Devil]

No, I didn't. Which is why I said "FULLY TRANSFORMABLE."

It IS fully transformable. There is a bar that was placed (maybe on purpose) to prevent it from assuming Transport mode.

And anyway, it's rather ugly, isn't it?

The exterior can be modified to look better. Its called sculpting. But the concept is sound because it does fully transform.

No. You said HG isn't throwing money at it. I said that it failed here, and it failed in America. Failing in Japan gives HG a precedent of failure, and also means there's no real secondary market to fall back on, and no Japanese toy company willing to work together with Toynami.

Why would they need a toy company in Japan? They can make molds for toys now using scanning technology. All it requires are pictures. Tommy already let out back when they were talking about the images that were going to be used for the 2nd Edition Robotech RPG that he has detailed schematics for an Ajax toy that was planned.

In other words, you say it's irrelevant, and I disagree.

It is irrelevant because we don't live in a world where production processes on toys are primitive.

[Gubaba]

It IS fully transformable. There is a bar that was placed (maybe on purpose) to prevent it from assuming Transport mode.

The exterior can be modified to look better. Its called sculpting. But the concept is sound because it does fully transform.

Does it look good in all three modes? How much "anime magic" went into the original design? (These aren't loaded questions. I'm genuinely asking.)

Why would they need a toy company in Japan? They can make molds for toys now using scanning technology. All it requires are pictures. Tommy already let out back when they were talking about the images that were going to be used for the 2nd Edition Robotech RPG that he has detailed schematics for an Ajax toy that was planned.

Maybe they don't need one, but up to this point, they've always used one. I assume it keeps costs down.

[Einherjar]

So you want them to invest, regardless of risk, in resurrecting and fully realizing a design from a 15+ year old discontinued toyline that originally came from a series made in 1984, citing quotes from people almost 10 years old now that it will be profitable in 2011?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Einherjar

[1st Border Red Devil]

Does it look good in all three modes?

For a mass produced toy made in the mid-80s, I'd say its fair.

How much "anime magic" went into the original design?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

So you want them to invest, regardless of risk, in resurrecting and fully realizing a design from a 15+ year old discontinued toyline that originally came from a series made in 1984, citing quotes from people almost 10 years old now that it will be profitable in 2011?

:sigh:

What I want them to do is at least gauge interest by making 1 or 2 super-poseables. I think a set of Spartas and Ajax super-poseables might do well. I think its especially apparent that people are tired of getting the same Macross toys they can get elsewhere. Doing the same g#ddamn thing over and over again and expecting different results is called insanity.

If I thought for one minute that Tommy wouldn't f#ck it up, I would think a 1 or 2-issue comic from Wildstorm about the Army of the Southern Cross that coincided with the release would help sales.

[VF5SS]

Got any kind of proof that the majority of Robotech fans aren't into it? It did live on in The Sentinels, something that (just going by signatures on a petition) shows that a significant portion of fans want it.

you're delusional

[Einherjar]

What I want them to do is at least gauge interest by making 1 or 2 super-poseables. I think a set of Spartas and Ajax super-poseables might do well. I think its especially apparent that people are tired of getting the same Macross toys they can get elsewhere. Doing the same g#ddamn thing over and over again and expecting different results is called insanity.

It still sounds like a significant investment in terms of Harmony Gold and Toynami money. They aren't like other companies that do this kind of stuff on a regular basis, and the work shows.

[Keith]

::absolutely nothing::

Troll harder!

[1st Border Red Devil]

It still sounds like a significant investment in terms of Harmony Gold and Toynami money. They aren't like other companies that do this kind of stuff on a regular basis, and the work shows.

It requires investment, yes. If you expect to have a product that will sell, you have to invest in it. It requires risk, otherwise you're simply p*ssing into the wind.

[Einherjar]

It requires investment, yes. If you expect to have a product that will sell, you have to invest in it. It requires risk, otherwise you're simply p*ssing into the wind.

When I say "significant investment" in terms of "Harmony Gold and Toynami money," I mean economically and feasibly not possible at all. Like "Oh my God why are we in this business?!" risky.

[Jasonc]

I think HG, and Toynami, moreso Toynami, have done research to warrant not making Southern Cross toys. Apparently, HG has done some research, or at least read their forums over the past 11 or so years, and has determined that Southern Cross isn't a money maker. While it maybe sad, and some fans may want to fight it all they want, the fact is, is that it is the least popular of the 3 series. I don't think anyone needs "a link", or word form a guy who ran ADV. Getting a straight answer from the guy who ran ADV isn't necessarily going to be the whole truth, either. You're talking to someone who isn't going to say that a product he put out did terribly. I know from a decent group of people I know, that Southern Cross is more times than not, the least favorite of the 3 from Robotech, and if people recall Robotech, don't remember too much of the second series.

Also, sales of a series do have an outcome of the toys. I'm sure the sales and popularity of this series in Japan are a good indicator of how toys and product for this particular segment would translate here and now. I'd like to see an AJAX "space helicopter" or a tank, but just will not happen. As for the additional characters in any further installments, that's their call, but they'll most likely be supporting cast, not important.

[1st Border Red Devil]

I think HG, and Toynami, moreso Toynami, have done research to warrant not making Southern Cross toys.

Based. On. What? I have yet to see a SINGLE mention of Toynami BROACHING the subject of making Southern Cross toys.

Apparently, HG has done some research, or at least read their forums over the past 11 or so years, and has determined that Southern Cross isn't a money maker.

Again, if you sit on you @ss and don't even try, hey, you were RIGHT! I mean, f#ck almighty, its obvious that Southern Cross toys won't sell when there are none to sell!

Getting a straight answer from the guy who ran ADV isn't necessarily going to be the whole truth, either. You're talking to someone who isn't going to say that a product he put out did terribly.

And yet I'm supposed to take the word of Kevin McKeever and Tommy Yune that there simply isn't any interest?

I know from a decent group of people I know, that Southern Cross is more times than not, the least favorite of the 3 from Robotech, and if people recall Robotech, don't remember too much of the second series.

So. What.

[EXO]

Have you tried going to HG and Toynami and begging on your knees?

[Duke Togo]

Again, if you sit on you @ss and don't even try, hey, you were RIGHT! I mean, f#ck almighty, its obvious that Southern Cross toys won't sell when there are none to sell!

I've never tried to sell a sack of dog shite (nor has anyone I know), but I am fairly certain if I did it wouldn't sell.

In all seriousness, I'd wager if a small run of quality toys were to be put out, serious mecha collectors would gobble them up.

[VF5SS]

i love you space helicopter

[Jasonc]

Based. On. What? I have yet to see a SINGLE mention of Toynami BROACHING the subject of making Southern Cross toys.

Again, if you sit on you @ss and don't even try, hey, you were RIGHT! I mean, f#ck almighty, its obvious that Southern Cross toys won't sell when there are none to sell!

And yet I'm supposed to take the word of Kevin McKeever and Tommy Yune that there simply isn't any interest?

So. What.

So, if most people don't have that much interest in that particular series, it's evident enough that the toys won't do that well. There's always risks involved, when making a new product. How businesses counter those risks is by risk management. Approaches to that are:

Risk Avoidance = Do nothing

Risk Identification = Finding areas of possible issues

Risk Assessment = Research the validity and extent

Risk Reduction = Research ways to reduce the threat

Risk Transference = Insurance policies

Risk Retention = Not used here

Risk Monitoring = Self assessment to keep active risks under control

By your argument, Toynami should just skip all this, make some toys, and hope for the best. If they did make super posables, even though I like Southern Cross, I wouldn't buy them. I don't collect superposables, and maybe Toynami's done research on their sales and again, going by forums and whatnot, that suggest that idea isn't a good one. They've probably done that with the Southern Cross line. George Sohn isn't stupid, and they do have a valid license for Robotech toys. I think if there was money to be made, he would have made something. Southern Cross toys don't sell just because there isn't any, seems they wouldn't sell well due to lack of interest in that part of the franchise. You can debate that all you want, but a few interested people doesn't warrant paying money for making a new prototype, then paying a factory to make molds and producing several thousand.

And you're right, I wouldn't trust Tommy and all them either with what they say...but, since they aren't acting on making the toys, that says enough.

[UN Spacy]

Nobody cares about Southern Cross.

Even while I was a youth I could tell it was the WORST of the three.

[Shaorin]

It IS fully transformable. There is a bar that was placed (maybe on purpose) to prevent it from assuming Transport mode.

The exterior can be modified to look better. Its called sculpting. But the concept is sound because it does fully transform.

Why would they need a toy company in Japan? They can make molds for toys now using scanning technology. All it requires are pictures. Tommy already let out back when they were talking about the images that were going to be used for the 2nd Edition Robotech RPG that he has detailed schematics for an Ajax toy that was planned.

It is irrelevant because we don't live in a world where production processes on toys are primitive.

i seriously doubt that modern TOYNAMI MASTERPIECE versions of any of the SOUTHERN CROSS mecha

would manage to sell even a fraction of what the MASTERPIECE VF-1s did. that said;

i have a scad of the mid-1990's EXO-SQUAD ROBOTECH reissues in storage, from back in then in the dark ages,

when i was a budding MACROSS fan that was gratefully taking what little i could get.

i have pretty much all the large vehicles, ZENT. battle pod, GLAUG officer's pod, INVID shock trooper, and the SPARTAS/HOVER TANK.

i got them all for close out prices at the local TOYS-R-US back then, they obviously didn't exactly fly off the shelves.

i got a wee bit creative one day long ago, and decided to attempt to modify that SPARTAS so it could assume TRANSPORT mode.

while i was only partially successful, i could clearly see that it wouldn't have taken much more effort on MATCHBOX's engineer's part

to make the toy FULLY transformable.

it was very much possible back then, i think that MATCHBOX simply wanted the toy at a VERY SPECIFIC manufacturing price point per unit,

and properly engineering the toy would have pushed it over the edge.

this is all speculation, of course; i just feel that this is likely the most logical and likely dead-on explanation

for why the old SPARTAS toy was designed the way that it was.

at any rate, those days are long behind me, thank god, and even though HG wont let fans like me have proper modern U.S. localizations

of any of MACROSS' preponderance of video media, at least there's nothing that that Peanut Gallery can do about

me amassing a collection of MACROSS toys of a caliber i could barely even dream of back in those dry years!!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Shaorin

[chrisk]

How 'bout this. Toynami can't even get the Alpha/Legioss toy right after 10 years, why risk making an entirely new mold for the AJAX or Hovertank? They'll just royally screw it up.

[EXO]

I happen to like SC, some of it anyway. Especially the armors. But I also like Mospeada. Now, let me count how many HG related toys I have. Oh yeah, the Beagles... engineered by the people that make Yamato toys... lol. Even if HG decides to make Toynami toys of SC items, I doubt I would care, and how many more fans feel like I do? I'd say that brings down any significant number of people that would be interested close to nil.

Edit... dammit chrisK! haha!

[Seto Kaiba]

Not exactly true. There is nothing prohibiting them from using the Southern Cross designs either. They just won't because Tommy Yune cannot think outside the box in any way, shape or form.

Or... and forgive me if I blow your mind with this... the reason Harmony Gold isn't using designs from Southern Cross in Robotech could be as simple and straightforward as having examined things like polling results, television ratings, viewer responses to the saga on video streaming sites, and the general mood of the fanbase and come to the logical (nigh-inescapable) conclusion that more of Southern Cross is precisely what most Robotech fans do not want.

Got any kind of proof that the majority of Robotech fans aren't into it? It did live on in The Sentinels, something that (just going by signatures on a petition) shows that a significant portion of fans want it.

Let's see... last I checked, you could count the number of vocal Southern Cross fans in the Robotech fandom on one hand. It's not helping that foremost among Robotech's fans of Southern Cross is none other than dougbendo.

Incidentally, has it ever occurred to you that the reason Robotech fans want to see Sentinels finished probably has a lot more to do with it being a direct continuation of Robotech's highest-rated, best-testing, most popular saga (Macross) with the plot completely centered around the most popular characters in Robotech (all from Macross), not its unfortunate and largely superficial relation to Southern Cross, a canceled series and the lowest-rated, worst-testing, most-hated part of Robotech? I'm just sayin...

Well they sure as hell could at least ATTEMPT to give it exposure more than simply ignoring it.

Giving more exposure to a provably broken product that the audience has repeatedly and emphatically illustrated it doesn't want is generally (and generously) called "wasting your time and money". I'm sure you'll write it off as coincidence, but there's probably a good indicator of why they don't give it more exposure in that in several of its television airings the show was either pulled after the Masters Saga or that the Masters Saga was skipped altogether.

Then why did Tommy Yune apparently talk about releasing just the Southern Cross portion of Robotech the Movie?

News flash... that doesn't require the right to produce derivative works (new animation) based on Southern Cross, since that was composed entirely of old animation reworked cut-and-paste style. They can do that because they have the distribution rights to the animation of the Southern Cross TV series.

Again, if you sit on you @ss and don't even try, hey, you were RIGHT! I mean, f#ck almighty, its obvious that Southern Cross toys won't sell when there are none to sell!

If the audience stops watching a series out of contempt, that's probably a good sign that the merchandise isn't going to sell.