HG and Robotech Debates

[HappyPenguins]

I have to thank Gubaba for showing me this hilarious screen cap I just had to edit

the original

Edited January 3, 2011 by HappyPenguins

[Dynaman]

I have to thank Gubaba for showing me this hilarious screen cap I just had to edit

Only problem is that Zombie is looking in the wrong place...

[BeyondTheGrave]

or it could be that creepy old guy from family guy... the early years.

[Jasonc]

no but changing the network name to "syfy" was one of the most retarded ideas ever.....

oh and also putting effing wrestling on the network too! I wasn't aware that qualified as science fiction damn I'm really behind these days....

anyways, yes a bunch of these shows jumped the shark but could have been saved with zombies

I always found Star Trek to be too goofy any ways......all the silly beeping in the enterprise reminded me of McDonalds and the beeping when the fries are done

also I propose TSC could be improved with some simple editing..... like Ahnold soundboard clip voice overs accompanied by a fart soundboard too

I used to do prank calls with such sound boards back in teh day hehe.

I have to agree on the idea of "syfy" now having wrestling. Pisses me off having to watch crap tv after anything decent. I usually pop in a DVD or bluray at that time, unless there's something on History Channel.

I have to thank Gubaba for showing me this hilarious screen cap I just had to edit

the original

I almost wanna yell to Rick "Put a bullet in his F!@#ing head, don't let him get you!" Good ol' sempai

[Dynaman]

I almost wanna yell to Rick "Put a bullet in his F!@#ing head, don't let him get you!" Good ol' sempai

Tat's "Big Brother" in these here parts.

[taksraven]

Trek jumped the shark when it became Time Travel Trek...it was like watching the Terminator with spaceships...Enterprise crashed and burned when they introduced the Borg.

Voyager did a massive amount to demystify and therefore weaken the Borg as a credible threat in the franchise. They were in about 50 Voyager episodes and looked worse in each appearance. The biggest insult was 7 of 9's family secretly studying the Borg for such a long period of time. How stupid was that?

And to go back to On-topic, if RT had been inconstant production for the last 20 years, they would have run out of ideas after the first season. I think if they had completed the original Sentinels it would have killed them and destroyed the fanbase completely.

[UN Spacy]

I was recently hitting my DVR backlog of Conan episodes, and saw this bit. I can't help but think given Pierre Bernanrds history of fandom, that this is a knock at Steve Yune. And if so, well done sir, well done

http://www.tbs.com/v...ef=sharethisUrl

:lol:

[Zor Primus]

And to go back to On-topic, if RT had been inconstant production for the last 20 years, they would have run out of ideas after the first season. I think if they had completed the original Sentinels it would have killed them and destroyed the fanbase completely.

I'm one of the few fans that would have liked to see the Sentinels. It was original in the sense that it didn't borrow (much) from Japan and it continued what many saw as the best of the 3 gens. I think I mentioned this in a past post, but as a fan who read the novels and liked them I went with new material rather then thrash it and say it sucked. For a long time the Mckinney novels was all RT fans had.

Its like if Macross fans thrashed M7, M+ and MF only because it didn't fit their idea of a sequel...thats how many RT fans bashed anything that wasn't in the 85 eps. They should have enjoyed what they got from anywhere, considering HG was catatonic for 20 years and later tried to revive itself with Shadow Chronics...which we all know how that went.

To be honest I enjoyed more the Prelude comic series then the actual movie that came later.

[Legioss]

That's because Robotech in printed form was, unfortunately, a million times more sophisticated. Novels, comics, and RPGs (and to some extent video games) are the home of Robotech and that's why the 90s were actually Robotech in its prime. It's like that because Harmony Gold only has rights to make merchandise for Macross, they haven't been able to afford to tell the story in animation, and Robotech animation always looks old. Those are incidentally the #1 complaints about Robotech. There hasn't been a comittment of resources to do it right. I remember in the 90s we were told that making more Robotech would cost too much money. Then they made Robotech 3000 and it turned out they were right. Again they didn't have the copyrights to do it correctly. Again they couldn't finish it. Again the animation was already obsolete when it was made. They still didn't learn their lesson and made Shadow Chronicles. What if it was a set of comics or books instead?

[Einherjar]

You know, compared to animation you have liberty of cutting a lot of corners when making the transition to novels, comics, RPG books, etc. Let the fans' imaginations run wild with open ended and general descriptions about stuff, and then let their expectations get so high that it never compares to what is created over time. That's especially important when the company behind said stuff is lacking in some/many ways.

Real talent

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm one of the few fans that would have liked to see the Sentinels. It was original in the sense that it didn't borrow (much) from Japan and it continued what many saw as the best of the 3 gens.

Eh... the Robotech II: the Sentinels series might not have (directly) borrowed substantially from the original Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, but in terms of originality it still belonged to the same category of shameless knockoffs as Space Gandam V and Astro Plan.

Personally, I think having Robotech II: the Sentinels continue the story of Robotech's most popular saga (the Macross Saga) is actually a strong argument against the show. Instead of trying to do something new and original with the Robotech story and concept, which would entail actual work and talent, the "creative team" responsible for Sentinels opted to put forth the minimum possible effort by slapping together a series out of existing characters and set pieces. From what little they produced before the project fell apart, it was quite obvious they were relying on the appeal of holdover characters from Macross to camouflage the show's low quality.

As much as I'd like to say that the fans would've been kinder to Robotech II: the Sentinels if Carl Macek and company had put in the time and effort to make something halfway original, we all know how it turned out when he tried.

That's because Robotech in printed form was, unfortunately, a million times more sophisticated.

A million times zero is still zero.

Novels, comics, and RPGs (and to some extent video games) are the home of Robotech and that's why the 90s were actually Robotech in its prime. [...] They still didn't learn their lesson and made Shadow Chronicles. What if it was a set of comics or books instead?

I would think the answer would be obvious. They would cheap out on the production of the comics or novels... partly as a result of being unable to afford anyone with real talent, and partly out of senior management's well justified stance that Robotech isn't worth taking any significant financial risks. We probably would've seen more comics of the same (generally low) quality as the "From the Stars" miniseries or the "Prelude" miniseries, and a novel probably wouldn't have even drawn the attention of most Robotech fans. They keep trying to make new animation because the majority of fans are still hung up on the Macross Saga cast and want a continuation of their story... only this time they had twenty years of desperate self-delusion influencing their assessment of its quality.

[sharky]

Only problem is that Zombie is looking in the wrong place...

He was looking for brains in all the wrong places

Looking for brains in too many faces

Searching their heads, looking for traces

Of what...He's...dreaming of...

[Jasonc]

I think for the time that Sentinels was supposed to air, it would've been a success. It was around the time that not too many people knew of Robotech's original shows, and didn't know, or care, that it was pieced all together from those 3 series. Robotech was still somewhat popular, and had a toyline, even if it was a pretty shoddy toyline.

To say what would/could/should've happened if Sentinels made it completely through is a lot of speculation and opinion. It would've changed how we all view Robotech today for certain, but to what extent is anyone's guess. Most look at it now, and look through RT: Art 3 and comment on how bad it would've been, but that's us after the exposure to what we know now. Perhaps it would've been well loved, if even for a short time, had it made syndication. If you talk of ripples of change creating tidal waves on the other side of the pond, this would've given Carl Macek much more clout at HG possibly, and the timing at which he departed from HG would've been different, if at all. In that case, would Tommy, Steve have ever made it there? Would there be a Shadow Rising, and what would the face of Robotech today look because of that? The door of possiblity is almost endless.

Oh, and in regards to RT the Sentinels, I actually kinda enjoyed it, in its hoaky kinda way. It sure as hell had more thought put into it than Shadow Chronicles and the way Robotech is now. Hell, I like The Untold Story better than Shadow Chronicles. That's really reaching the bottom of the barrel.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Jasonc

[Legioss]

I wonder how many Sentinels planets they'd be able to get through before Matchbox pulled the plug. Sometime around the liberation of Praxis seems like a good stopping point. About 5 weeks or 20 something episodes in, somebody at Matchbox sees an easy way to cut costs. Next week, many years later they're on Praxis and the new protoculture matrix sends the SDF-3 back to time to become the Robotech Masters. Week after that, Boobytrap airs again and now we know what happened to Admiral Hunter.

edit: I would say the prototculture matrix blows up and everybody dies, but time travel was Macek's ending.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Legioss

[Zen72]

Hello all!

An invitation to The Protoculture Times:ONE MORE ROUND. Talk some Robotech II: The Sentinels....some Voltron.....some RT fan sites....some shout outs....

Oh yeah...and interviews with Greg Finley (Gloval), Rebecca Fordstadt (Minmei), Michael Bradley (Yellow Dancer) and James Luceno (New York Times Best Selling Star Wars author and one half of Jack Mckinney of the Robotech Novels)

http://www.protoculturetimes.com/2011/01/protoculture-times-one-more-round.html

It may not be for everyone, but I had a fun time doing it!

Best regards!

JT aka Zen72 aka John

[Legioss]

Yeah, that was really smart when they replaced 21 books with one movie, Shadow Chronicles, and it didn't even fit with the series anyway, all to bait and switch the audience with characters they don't have the rights to animate. It's actually quite weird when you're sober, but on Robotech fandom, it's normal.

[Tom Bateman]

This is the biggest problem I had with The Sentinels as it was made is that it was so limited and confined. It was a poor sequel to the original Robotech filled with a lot of half-baked ideas and simplistic character stereotypes; i.e. the fiendish General Edwards and the indecisive Rick Hunter (seriously, did we really need to see you wait 10 years to marry Lisa Hayes?)

The Sentinels could have been a great show in its own right, a thing that would allow Robotech to stand on its own, had they tried to do a new story. Personally, I would have done a story where new characters (i.e. Jack Baker, Karen Penn) took center stage, with the old Robotech characters being in important, but supporting roles, like the original Gundam characters were in Zeta Gundam.

I do respect the work of the Waltrip Brothers and Jack McKinney, even if I don't agree with where they took the story. I think to try to wrap up The Sentinels story in a 5-issue comic was just SHAMEFUL.

[Roy Focker]

They waited 10 years because Rick was still trying to grow a pair.

[Tom Bateman]

They waited 10 years because Rick was still trying to grow a pair.

And this was the guy who Scott Bernard and everyone else thought was this great, legendary war hero?

To even think of starting off his arc like that is an insult to the character.

What a waste.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tom Bateman

[Keith]

Here's the problem in a nutshell. 7.5 out of 10 anime series are concieved with an ending in mind. 10+ out of 10 american series/comic books are concieved with a 'let's milk this for as long as humanly possible" sales mentality in mind. If your'e going to do a movie sequal, end your freakin' story. Start a new story for a new sequal. Shadow Chronicles did not even try to wrap a single thing up, and its maybe sequal won't do it either.

[Atharun]

In a perfect world, I would have liked to have seen Robotech in a sense similar to Universal Century Gundam. You have the three different sagas,however as with First Gundam and Zeta, your main characters could be a mix of those that came before and new ones. However with the fact that it was three different shows that was impossible. Ideally a "remake" would be mice IMO but I doubt HG would ever in a millions years make a financial commitment for that. It's unfortunate because there are those of us who as fans, for whatever reason, keep interest in the franchise but don't equate interest with support for its current form.

[Legioss]

Maybe they'll wrap it up in 30 years. I Can't Believe It's Not Megaroad!

[Dynaman]

Maybe they'll wrap it up in 30 years. I Can't Believe It's Not Megaroad!

That would wrap it up in one more movie, so probably too much to ask for. (considering it takes em 20 years between releases...)

[TehPW]

Hello all!

An invitation to The Protoculture Times:ONE MORE ROUND. Talk some Robotech II: The Sentinels....some Voltron.....some RT fan sites....some shout outs....

Oh yeah...and interviews with Greg Finley (Gloval), Rebecca Fordstadt (Minmei), Michael Bradley (Yellow Dancer) and James Luceno (New York Times Best Selling Star Wars author and one half of Jack Mckinney of the Robotech Novels)

http://www.protoculturetimes.com/2011/01/protoculture-times-one-more-round.html

It may not be for everyone, but I had a fun time doing it!

Best regards!

JT aka Zen72 aka John

don't we just bannify spam trolls or tools who just don't post here (4? where else do you spam, boss?) and least i took the time to post a avatar, Lolz

Edited January 5, 2011 by pensives_wetness

[Seto Kaiba]

This is the biggest problem I had with The Sentinels as it was made is that it was so limited and confined. It was a poor sequel to the original Robotech filled with a lot of half-baked ideas and simplistic character stereotypes [...]

Robotech II: the Sentinels was limited and confined by its very nature as a minimum-effort sequel and as literal plot spackle for Robotech's overarching story. The creative staff responsible for the Sentinels series clearly had neither the talent nor the wherewithal to make engaging original characters of their own for the show, so they took the path of least resistance and based the story around existing characters for whom all of the hard work had already been done by the creators of the original shows. That way, they could safely push shallow stock characters like Jack Baker and Karen Penn into the background and rely on familiar names with not-so-familiar faces like Rick Hunter to carry the series.

's actually one of the reasons I think the Invid Regent is the best damn character in the entire Sentinels series, and probably the best villain in Robotech as a whole. The other villains in Robotech take themselves seriously... they try to pass themselves off as deep and complex even after Robotech's (re)writers thoroughly washed any trace of subtlety out of the original shows. Even Edwards tried to be all complex and tragic, and it just felt SO stilted and false. The Invid Regent's not having any truck with that nonsense... no sir! He's an unapologetic saturday morning children's show villain. If there was an Invid space puppy around, he'd kick it because that's just what guys like him do. He laughs maniacally, he verbally abuses his incompetent underlings, and all of his evil plans are so shallow, simple, and pointless that even a grade school kid could figure them out without any trouble. More often than not, he's evil simply for the sake of being evil. The Regent is the one character in the entirety of Robotech who seems to realize just how amateurish and high-camp Robotech is... and he plays it to the hilt. That's what makes him great.

I do respect the work of the Waltrip Brothers and Jack McKinney, even if I don't agree with where they took the story. I think to try to wrap up The Sentinels story in a 5-issue comic was just SHAMEFUL.

Having actually read the Sentinels comics by the Waltrips, I didn't think wrapping it up with the 5-issue Prelude miniseries did them any injustice (that hadn't already been done to them by their own authors).

And this was the guy who Scott Bernard and everyone else thought was this great, legendary war hero?

To even think of starting off his arc like that is an insult to the character.

Really... the idea of a vacillating ninny like Rick Hunter becoming a great, legendary war hero and leader of men is kind of insulting in its own right. Not to the character, but to the rest of the military in Robotech. If a twit like him is the great leader of what appears to be Earth's postwar military dictatorship, then it's really no surprise that things go as badly as they do later on. Now if it were Lisa, then it might be easier to accept that Admiral Hunter was a great war hero and talented commander... but noooooooo, Robotech can't handle the idea of a woman in authority, so she had to take a backseat to her spineless hubby. Macross's Misa commands Earth's first-ever space colonization mission. Robotech's Lisa becomes the bus driver who carts around her allegedly (and undeservedly) legendary husband while he calls all the shots and eventually quits the service altogether so he can have the spotlight to himself.

[Zen72]

don't we just bannify spam trolls or tools who just don't post here (4? where else do you spam, boss?) and least i took the time to post a avatar, Lolz

A few people here have mentioned the show here in a positive light in the past year and I thought I'd share the link because I'm appreciative of the plugs to the podcast. But if you REALLY feel the need or have been offended in any way by my post or my lack of avatar, you go ahead and take it up with someone.

With the rest of the RT podcasts who whine and moan week after week about the "Macross Purists", "fake" scripts", etc. like it's some sort of "holy crusade" of righteousness, I never saw the people who like Macross as a problem. In fact, some of them have been loyal listeners to my show. Though for some reason, it's considered a capital sin with the self proclaimed "ministers" over at the "Holy Church of Robotech" to even mingle with them. Even worse when I have a few choice words about Harmony Gold's "Three Stooges" (Tommy, Kevin and Steve) and their "marks" aka moderators who love making whacked out claims like "Paramount Studios is quaking in their boots over the prospect of a RT LAM". It makes me a traitor, a rat, a nonbeliever, a heretic who should be burnt at the stake.

I find it laughable the apparent loss of reality in those people. I love my Robotech and the "creepies" are just angry that I don't follow the "party line" with my podcast and that I DON'T denounce Macross World as a cestpool of evil.

I mean...what are they REALLY gonna do except flap their gums about me...that's all they really got at the end of the day. I take solace in the fact that I don't lose sight that it's an animated series and to them.....well, it's really scary to see what Robotech has become for them from a mental and psychological standpoint.

And I will utter here what is extremely tabu over at the Robotech "establishment".

Without Macross, Southern Cross or Mospeada....you wouldn't have Robotech. That simple...simple as that.

OMG, I'm such bbbbaaaaaaadd Robotech fan.

So let the conspiracy theories fly!

Thanks!

Zen72- JT

Edited January 5, 2011 by Zen72

[Noyhauser]

Wait, wait, wait... let me get this straight....

You like Robotech,

You have a podcast

You don't hate Macross*

This does not compute... anybody else as confused as me?

*The Big West Version with six film/TV series.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Noyhauser

[Devil 505]

Wait, wait, wait... let me get this straight....

You like Robotech,

You have a podcast

You don't hate Macross*

This does not compute... anybody else as confused as me?

*The Big West Version with six film/TV series.

I agree. This is my mind right now.

[Jasonc]

don't we just bannify spam trolls or tools who just don't post here (4? where else do you spam, boss?) and least i took the time to post a avatar, Lolz

Zen72/JT, is by no means a troll. He's posted several times in this thread, or one of the previous in the super thread. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as it is related to Robotech, and does relate to some of the topics here, like the LAM, some drama, and acknowledging the original series.

Yes, you can be a total Robotech fan, and engage in the discussions here, and not be hated. There are other Robotech fans who post in here and in other threads, and all are welcome. It's only been when they come here only to insight flame wars and such, and spam, both of which Zen72 hasn't violated.

Now, in regards to the Regent, I do agree that he was one of the more badass villains of Robotech. At least in the novels, he wasn't so complicated, like they try now to do with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER in the entire franchise. They have so much empty backstory on every character, and everyone is so closely related, it confines the large story that's there, but that's the problem with the current writing and such.

It's why after the original 85 and Sentinels, I really don't like anything after. Shadow Chronicles is just one glorified "buy me cause I character drop" show, with no content. Had they actually created more characters with no affiliation to the previous shows, it would've been better, but it's a problem that they've forced themselves into long ago. The great thing about Macross, is that while there seems to be at least one character that is related to a previous series, OVA, movie, or whatnot, the shows don't stick to one central character. It's a big franchise, and to confine it with a drawn out plot of what happened to some damn ship like in Robotech is doing it a disservice.

Also, what has been discussed here as well, is that the issue of confining the franchise also shows a lack of creativity. Even though Sentinels was hoaky, and had some issues that weren't so great, at least it was more of an attempt at branching out, than staying retracted in a small box. I think Carl at least knew that Robotech needed expansion beyond the original episodes. People can agree or disagree, it's my opinion on that. I'm not debating if Carl was a great story teller or not, as I can only go off of all the info I have, which isn't much. It's just an observation on the two different approaches of Tommy and Carl. Personally, I'd rather have the hoaky "saturday morning cartoon" Sentinels that's over the top and grand in some sense, over the current story that tries too hard, seems forced, and lacks any effort.

[Zen72]

Wait, wait, wait... let me get this straight....

You like Robotech,

You have a podcast

You don't hate Macross*

This does not compute... anybody else as confused as me?

*The Big West Version with six film/TV series.

I agree. This is my mind right now.

OH COME ON! Am I such an oddity?

I NEVER concerned myself with the whole Macross VS. Robotech thing. I know there are people that absolutely hate Robotech and would love to see it go down in flames! By the same token I know there are some seriously messed up people who call themselves Robotech fans who say and I quote "Riding with my sword of justice in my hand, continuing my long crusade against the ungodly troops of the Macross Purists."

Swear to God, NO JOKE!

WTF????

The term Macross Purist, and I have said this many times on the show.....is an excuse to justify that one is a Robotech Fan. (sometimes in the most outrageous ways)

WHAT in the hell is there to justify????? For me..it's just easier to say I love Robotech...I'm a fan...and hey...that's it.

Bottom Line.....Macross VS. Robotech.....I don't care...

When it comes to Macross, my only experiences are TWO of them....saw the english dub of SDFM and Macross DYRL.....which I did enjoy.

And of course I realize that by posting here I won't get any further sales calls for a subscription to "HARMONY GOLD RULES" Magazine....

And there are more of Robotech fans out there who think like this....that don't care about some fanatical crusade...they enjoy what they want to enjoy....

Of course in the end....we get labeled MACROSS PURISTS too!

Thanks!

Zen72/JT

[Jasonc]

OH COME ON! Am I such an oddity?

I NEVER concerned myself with the whole Macross VS. Robotech thing. I know there are people that absolutely hate Robotech and would love to see it go down in flames! By the same token I know there are some seriously messed up people who call themselves Robotech fans who say and I quote "Riding with my sword of justice in my hand, continuing my long crusade against the ungodly troops of the Macross Purists."

Swear to God, NO JOKE!

WTF????

The term Macross Purist, and I have said this many times on the show.....is an excuse to justify that one is a Robotech Fan. (sometimes in the most outrageous ways)

WHAT in the hell is there to justify????? For me..it's just easier to say I love Robotech...I'm a fan...and hey...that's it.

Bottom Line.....Macross VS. Robotech.....I don't care...

When it comes to Macross, my only experiences are TWO of them....saw the english dub of SDFM and Macross DYRL.....which I did enjoy.

And of course I realize that by posting here I won't get any further sales calls for a subscription to "HARMONY GOLD RULES" Magazine....

And there are more of Robotech fans out there who think like this....that don't care about some fanatical crusade...they enjoy what they want to enjoy....

Of course in the end....we get labeled MACROSS PURISTS too!

Thanks!

Zen72/JT

I do find it funny when they call people who like both Macross Purists. By that token, the Robotech mods are self proclaimed Macross Purists. But seriously, they try to use that term, as if it's some derogatory remark, and it really isn't. Going by a logical definition, it's one that simply believes that Macross should remain pure (almost a vague and undefining term really). I laughed because for their next podcast, "Memaverick" is going to have a mutual friend go on the show and talk about his thoughts on the movie, and casting speculation. As I just hung out with that person they're bringing on, I know he's a big fan of Macross, and even bought the Malaysian bootleg version of Macross Frontier. By their standards, they would disavow ever knowing said person because of that, but in reality, it just shows they don't even know their own direction. It's one of those terms that really doesn't mean much of anything, so it really only means the most to whom it's directed at. If I'm one, I guess it means a good thing, even if I like both Robotech and Macross. Go figure.

[HappyPenguins]

just like JT I never had a problem with macross or its fans either. The whole macross fans vs robotech fans has always been silly, especially with those that take it seriously, like it's some sort of crusade.....puh-leese! The way I see it, fans like what they like, opinions aren't going to change so why fight over it? Also I don't think I'll ever understand how macross is out to destroy robotech either.... can SOMEONE, anyone, please explain what that means? How can shows destroy one another? Unless macross and its fans are being blamed for Tommy Yune's bastardized attempt to bring back RT, and we all know how that went. If anything or anyone is out to destroy RT, then it's Tommy himself and I think he's already done a pretty good job of that. Just look at the shadow chronicles and tell me that isn't train wreck of a film. That movie was his just own personal fan wanking......but again each robotech fan has their own vision about what happened so there really is no pleasing them, but either way it's stupid to blame macross for robotech's failures. Those alone should be blamed on the ones in charge, they are the only ones capable of making new RT happen, and making it good or bad. I think Tommy Yune sucks, pure and simple. Can't write a story to save himself, and just resorts to drawing fanart. Would be nice if someone with real talent got hired by WB to take over and give the series something it truly needs.

[terry the lone wolf]

I wish it was more consistancy in the critiques of Robotech like it being unoriginal or recycling of old ideas. Both the Macross and Robotech sequels have done their fair share of recycling Macross Frontier might be the worst offender of that. MF has two Minmays (Ranka & Sheryl), a emo Hikaru (Alto), & a blonde Max: Mikhail. Maybe a singing pilot could be original but that's kind of lame. Certain ideas I've seen in Macross sequels I've seen in Robotech first. Macross Plus had a virtual singing idol but Robotech did that first (yeah I know it was pilfered from Megazone 23 but it was still first). Giving Claudia a brother (Vince Grant) happened in RT and in Macross Zero we were introduced to Edgar LaSalle. I'm not saying Macross is copying RT but there's so few "original" ideas you do take from what came before.

[azrael]

Giving Claudia a brother (Vince Grant) happened in RT and in Macross Zero we were introduced to Edgar LaSalle.

Actually, we still don't have a good idea of Edgar's and Claudia's relationship. Brother, cousin, some guy who happens to have the same last name, who knows....

[Jasonc]

I wish it was more consistancy in the critiques of Robotech like it being unoriginal or recycling of old ideas. Both the Macross and Robotech sequels have done their fair share of recycling Macross Frontier might be the worst offender of that. MF has two Minmays (Ranka & Sheryl), a emo Hikaru (Alto), & a blonde Max: Mikhail. Maybe a singing pilot could be original but that's kind of lame. Certain ideas I've seen in Macross sequels I've seen in Robotech first. Macross Plus had a virtual singing idol but Robotech did that first (yeah I know it was pilfered from Megazone 23 but it was still first). Giving Claudia a brother (Vince Grant) happened in RT and in Macross Zero we were introduced to Edgar LaSalle. I'm not saying Macross is copying RT but there's so few "original" ideas you do take from what came before.

I think you're missing the point people are making with Shadow Chronicles. When you talk about Sheryl and Ranka as a supposed Minmay, Alto as a Hikaru, Max, and all that, Macross is borrowing from itself, and using different characters, and putting them in a whole new story. There's usually no harm, no foul for borrowing from your own series. Also to even say "Robotech did that first" when it comes to the virtual singer is kinda ignorant. At least you did mention that singer as being from Megazone 23. And yes, Vince Grant isn't necessarily the same as Edgar La Salle. Yes, we are talking about two timelines and story arcs that are close to each other, so there is going to be some bumping together. Vince Grant is a ship commander, Edgar is a RIO operator to Shin in Macross Zero. Also, as Azrael pointed out, it's never discussed as to what relation Edgar has with Claudia.

What I get from most people that have criticized Shadow Chronicles as being unoriginal, or recycling ideas. Some of that stems from the fact that they are still using the same characters and mecha as was done over 25 years ago. In that sense, it is very unoriginal and recycled, not to mention lazy and shows lack of any creativity. Many Mospeada, Macross, and Robotech fans think that way about Shadow Chronicles. I'm one of them.

Also, the idea that Shadow Chronicles dumbs down the plot of the first 3 series, and simply repeats it with said same characters, same mecha, is another recycling and unoriginal point. This is where I believe Carl came up with Sentinels. the series had exhausted its "aliens invade earth" plotline, and was going to explore the idea of the REF travelling the galaxy to find the Robotech Masters. However, RTSC takes this approach of doing the exact same plotline as the first 3 because they couldn't create anything bigger and more original. The ideas for what RTSC has become goes straight to the top, the one who has to be in total control of it.

I don't think it's an issue of similar ideas and whatnot. I only know a few RT fans who try to take this "Macross borrows from Robotech" argument to the umpteenth level. To try to nitpick that small, and not to be a derogatory towards Robotech, but the entire series is basically a recycle of the original 3 series. To say that Macross borrows from Robotech, you might as well say that Macross borrows from itself. To try to say that Macross Frontier copies original Macross, in many ways yes, but it's allowed to. To call it unoriginal is probably just a tad bit overdoing it, but it's your opinion. Lots of similarities, but placed in very different time, place, characters. Those similarities were done on purpose, and the viewer who's informed of the previous series of Macross usually knows that.

I've heard the expression "At least they are giving us more Robotech", and if that's the case, they might as well $h!t on a stick and put a Robotech label on it. Hey, at least they gave you something.