HG and Robotech Debates

[azrael]

What still gets me though is if the intellectual property allowing derivative use is not attached to the 41 designs that Tatsunko apparently owns the copyright on how does Big West/Studio Nue prove that they still the sole intellectual property owners of the 41 Macross designs in the first place?

Big West can still prove it because they have the copyright to those images in Japan that they filed way back.

Does Tatsunko literally own the drawings themselves or do they just have a document stating that they are entitled to the copyrights cause they used the drawings to produce Macross in 1982?

In Japan, it would be the latter. They have the contract between them and Big West.

[Freiflug88]

Tatsunoko has the economic rights that are associated with being the maker of the series, but not the moral/personal rights associated with being its author. That's what the 2003 ruling was.

If you want it in plain english, what the courts ruled really didn't change anything... Tatsunoko owns the animation they produced, but Big West/Studio Nue own the intellectual property used in its creation. For all practical purposes, Tatsunoko is considered to have used that copyrighted intellectual property with permission when they animated the original series and DYRL, but they don't own it or have any right to use it without Big West/Studio Nue's consent.

Thanks. Tommy Yune speech seemed to apply that the anime mecha designs were like blue prints. I know that when engineers design anything with any corporate resources said designs become the company's property to do with as they please and the engineer has no such authorship rights, but I am guessing Kawamori and others designed Macross on their own time.

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks. Tommy Yune speech seemed to apply that the anime mecha designs were like blue prints. I know that when engineers design anything with any corporate resources said designs become the company's property to do with as they please and the engineer has no such authorship rights, but I am guessing Kawamori and others designed Macross on their own time.

Sort of... Studio Nue started work on Super Dimension Fortress Macross under the Wiz (Uizu) Corporation, which wanted a 48 episode sci-fi parody/comedy. When Wiz went out of business, Studio Nue bought the rights from Wiz and hooked up with Big West to do Macross as a serious sci-fi story. Studio Nue's development of Macross as we know it was done under Big West's sponsorship. This is why Big West is the owner of the Macross franchise, and can even produce Macross sequels without Studio Nue (Macross II).

Tatsunoko was a genuine 11th hour addition to the production process, brought in by Big West to help foot the bill for the series in exchange for certain rights to the finished product (namely, the rest-of-world licensing and merchandising rights) not long before the first episode went to air.

The logic behind the court's decisions in 2002 and 2003 is that because Tatsunoko paid for the production of the actual animation, they owned that footage, but since they had neither paid for nor participated in the creation of the underlying designs and concepts that make up the series (like the 41 designs), those copyrights were separate and owned by those who had participated or paid for the creative process... Studio Nue and Big West.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[MacrossCN]

2010 Robotech Convention Tour Suggestions!

Started on: October 9, 2009 - 5:39:27 PM

Damn R, excepte 80s, where is your new fans?

Orz~~~~

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=34

[terry the lone wolf]

A lost Macek interview; he dosen't reveal any new info but still interesting reading:

http://www.nabiki.com/sstalker/macekinterview.asp

[VFTF1]

They make it sound like it was some feat of amazing creative genius to tie together three unrelated anime with a lame "plot" and some bad dubs, when the only instance where Harmony Gold had a chance to actually CREATE something - namely Sentinels - they couldn't get past three episodes and some story boards.

Way to go creative team.

Pete

[Funkenstein]

Where exactly has the Robotech convention been to? Surely not any anime convention.

[Moly_Sigang]

A lost Macek interview; he dosen't reveal any new info but still interesting reading:

http://www.nabiki.com/sstalker/macekinterview.asp

Q:Why were the characters from the Sentinels so different in appearance from those of the Macross series?

A:The reason that the characters look as they do in the Sentinels animation was simply that Harmony Gold could not use the character designs for the existing characters

[Einherjar]

Q:Why were the characters from the Sentinels so different in appearance from those of the Macross series?

A:The reason that the characters look as they do in the Sentinels animation was simply that Harmony Gold could not use the character designs for the existing characters

That should have been a warning sign for many fans on what is going on. Also, the liberal use of terms like OSM (original source material). What does that make the version the fandom follows, the OAEM, Official Arbitrarily Edited Material?

Edited October 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Q:Why were the characters from the Sentinels so different in appearance from those of the Macross series?

A:The reason that the characters look as they do in the Sentinels animation was simply that Harmony Gold could not use the character designs for the existing characters

Like Robotech fans listen to Carl Macek over Tommy Yune these days anyway? They'll just say that a lot has changed since then blah blah. Robotech fans listen only to what they want to hear cause you know it must be hard accepting the truth that your the fan of the losing franchise.

[Einherjar]

Robotech fans listen only to what they want to hear cause you know it must be hard accepting the truth that your the fan of the losing franchise.

Also the slippery slope that the show they've been supporting this whole time is looking more like an elaborate lie.

I have it from no less a person than JT himself that his next podcast will be up soon, and that he's apparently going to be taking a number of different people to task, including MEMO1DOMINION, Maverick_LSC, and possibly dougbendo or Pizza the Hutt. It seems they've been giving him some crap about the content and format of his podcast.

Surprisingly, I'm impressed in the way he conducts himself. He's totally different from the rest of them out there.

http://www.protoculturetimes.com/2009/10/e...e-pt-2-and.html

Edited October 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Moly_Sigang]

Like Robotech fans listen to Carl Macek over Tommy Yune these days anyway? They'll just say that a lot has changed since then blah blah. Robotech fans listen only to what they want to hear cause you know it must be hard accepting the truth that your the fan of the losing franchise.

You'd be surprised a lot of RT fans still listen to Carl Macek. They still consider him a genius way above Einstein for creating TEH BESTEST SCI-FI EVAR, ROBOTECH!

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

You'd be surprised a lot of RT fans still listen to Carl Macek. They still consider him a genius way above Einstein for creating TEH BESTEST SCI-FI EVAR, ROBOTECH!

Of course! Only a genius could take 3 good independent (of each other) anime series; and cobble them together into one giant mega series of mediocracy. Yes only a genius, an evil genius could.

Edited October 12, 2009 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[EXO]

It was Carl Macek's idea to put A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi together even though the 3 movies had nothing to do with each other, when George Lucas tried to do capitalize on that he got the prequels... tsk tsk... no one else can do what he does!

[Seto Kaiba]

Q:Why were the characters from the Sentinels so different in appearance from those of the Macross series?

A:The reason that the characters look as they do in the Sentinels animation was simply that Harmony Gold could not use the character designs for the existing characters

It's always nice to have more evidence to back up our already unassailable conclusion... but unfortunately for some, like MEMO1DOMINION, no amount of evidence will ever suffice. Even if Tommy Yune came out tomorrow and said "look guys, we can't use Macross", MEMO would still be trying to delude himself into believing it wasn't true.

When he was confronted with the text of that interview over on Robotech.com, he came up with some elaborate, utterly bullshit excuse that they couldn't back then, but that Harmony Gold "expanded" its rights to Macross at the same time they got the merchandising rights to DYRL. Never mind that there's no evidence of it, he's still presenting it as the irrefutable truth, and banning anyone who dares contradict him, like the jumped up little poo that he is. Seeing him use his mod powers like that got me hacked off enough to send a positively blistering e-mail to Steve Yun... one I'll be very interested to see the response to. I didn't just throw down the gauntlet... I threw the whole damn coat of armor.

Also the slippery slope that the show they've been supporting this whole time is looking more like an elaborate lie.

Pretty much, yeah... though one could say it's just mirroring the nature of its "creator". After all, Carl Macek has, over the years, claimed that Robotech was something he envisioned ahead of time, that he improved on the originals, and even implied that the originals were created for Harmony Gold. With lies like that at the core, does it really surprise any of us that the circumstances of Shadow Rising and the live action movie turned out to be one big, fairly obvious lie?

Surprisingly, I'm impressed in the way he conducts himself. He's totally different from the rest of them out there.

http://www.protoculturetimes.com/2009/10/e...e-pt-2-and.html

Yeah, JT/Zen72 is one of those rare Robotech fans who has his head screwed on straight. After years of dealing with people like MEMO, Maverick, and Pizza the Hutt, it took me a while to be sure that he wasn't just a hallucination brought about by my desire to believe that there had to be at least one Robotech die-hard who wasn't a complete idiot.

After all, for most of us, a statement like "Oh, I had an intelligent conversation with this really well-informed and rational die-hard Robotech fan today" is usually met with the same degree of incredulity that something along the lines of "I've just flown in from the Sherbert Kingdom, do you think the valet at Hogwarts can safely parallel park my flying marshmellow next to the unicorns?" would be.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Whamhammer]

Yeah, JT/Zen72 is one of those rare Robotech fans who has his head screwed on straight. After years of dealing with people like MEMO, Maverick, and Pizza the Hutt, it took me a while to be sure that he wasn't just a hallucination brought about by my desire to believe that there had to be at least one Robotech die-hard who wasn't a complete idiot.

After all, for most of us, a statement like "Oh, I had an intelligent conversation with this really well-informed and rational die-hard Robotech fan today" is usually met with the same degree of incredulity that something along the lines of "I've just flown in from the Sherbert Kingdom, do you think the valet at Hogwarts can safely parallel park my flying marshmellow next to the unicorns?" would be.

They are out there. Just try to remember that not all fans think alike.

[VFTF1]

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

[Einherjar]

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

I find it hypocritical when people like MEMO, the spokesperson to the fans, has very little knowledge or completely ignores the Southern Cross portion of his show. IIRC, despite its quality there were a lot of plot points in that section that sets up the groundwork for the entire universe. AKA, what this crap is really about and why we should care about it's future. But no, it's all about Macross Saga and New Generation. Where's that blind compliance he's known for?

I'll go even further, does anyone remember what the series is supposed to be about anymore? The drama with its creators has equal or more spotlight these days. And the creators aren't helping putting a complete stop to the entire universe, all versions of it.

[Bri]

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

hmm, tough question. I think that Robotech is carried by the three anime it is made off. Robotech is little more then a container packaging linking the three good series together in a single universe. Not only Macross but Super Dimension Cavalry and Mospeada are really worth watching. RT also downplays the idol/singing part of Macross in favor of a pure military aproach wcich is certainly attractive to a part of the RT fanbase.

Macek is a narrator (or hack if you prefer) that links three good stories together in one whole (which is not as good as the sum of its parts imo, also anything Robotech made outside of the original 85 eps has been utter shite). Combine this with the fact that RT is far easier to acces then Macross: no need to read subtitles or know Japanese, more recognisable names, character relations are simplified, three times the same theme and you might have an answer.

Robotech also has some very decent voice acting compared to other dubbed anime, which in thruth says more about the quality (or lack there off) in said anime.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Bri

[Seto Kaiba]

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

So far, the best (most rational) reason I've ever heard to watch Robotech has come from an acquaintance of mine who was a broadcast arts major studying to become a film historian. His take on the situation was that Robotech was worth watching for anyone interested in exploring the roots of American's love affair with anime.

There's also some folks who insist that Robotech is a way to gradually ease new viewers into anime by bridging the gap between conventional anime and western animation.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

To me, that says that a lot of Macross fans, and particularly those in America, were introduced to Macross through Robotech. That and people don't want to be making ill-informed statements that'll come back to bite them in the ass later... after all, nobody wants to be a MEMO1DOMINION or a Maverick_LSC, and be caught talking out of their ass.

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Some do... most don't seem to.

[Roy Focker]

That is what I could never understand how Macek & Robotech gets the credit for all ground breaking stuff. They brought it over but they didn't create anything. It was all there. When I bring Pizza home. I deserve thanks for buying and sharing it. I shouldn't thanked for making it.

[Seto Kaiba]

That is what I could never understand how Macek & Robotech gets the credit for all ground breaking stuff. They brought it over but they didn't create anything. It was all there. When I bring Pizza home. I deserve thanks for buying and sharing it. I shouldn't thanked for making it.

Yes, it's true that Carl Macek and Harmony Gold shouldn't be given credit for anything more than importing Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, and combining them into a whole less than the sum of its parts... but over the years they've put so much spin on the facts, told so many lies, and exaggerated the nature and extent of their contribution so often that the casual reader believes they deserve far more credit than they actually do.

Building on the analogy you used, what Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are doing is the equivalent of buying a pizza, then sneaking it into the kitchen, popping it into the oven, and acting like you made it yourself from scratch.

[Jasonc]

Building on the analogy you used, what Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are doing is the equivalent of buying a pizza, then sneaking it into the kitchen, popping it into the oven, and acting like you made it yourself from scratch.

Adding to that, HG wouldn't call it pizza, they'd call it DiGiorno, and then copywright the name pizza.

[HappyPenguins]

Yes, it's true that Carl Macek and Harmony Gold shouldn't be given credit for anything more than importing Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, and combining them into a whole less than the sum of its parts... but over the years they've put so much spin on the facts, told so many lies, and exaggerated the nature and extent of their contribution so often that the casual reader believes they deserve far more credit than they actually do.

Building on the analogy you used, what Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are doing is the equivalent of buying a pizza, then sneaking it into the kitchen, popping it into the oven, and acting like you made it yourself from scratch.

Yeah and either way Robotech was the good pizza, while TSC is that pizza that's got all the nasty toppings not everyone likes to eat, which was even dropped on the floor a couple times too....bon appetit!

[Jasonc]

Speaking of the JT podcast, that was quite refreshing. While I do know many level headed Robotech fans, it's great to actually hear a podcast from one of them. It seems that those of us whom are Robotech fans as well (yes, I am one of them to an extent) seem to have a very similar opinion on the status of their franchise. His podcast is very good, and perhaps if there were more of him around who were vocal, Robotech wouldn't be in the crap pit they're in. HP, you should have your friend come here and read the positive reviews he receives here. Not just for any negative remarks he's made, but somply because he's a good podcaster, and is a fan that can respect all things. I'll be listening more, not live, but I'll be listening to the uploaded episodes.

[Freiflug88]

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

I will just go ahead and say that Robotech has and will always be a great "gateway" anime in my opinion. That was the entire purpose of Robotech in the first place: entertain young American viewers with an animated show in English that they can all jump right into, not deliver a loyal anime adaption that only a small number of otaku would enjoy.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know... read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

Why would I do that? All I have to do is ask what are the Rt novels about and read the response of how Minmei is a slurm, Ricks a wife beater , Lisa is dazed confused ,Kyle gives Minmei roofies so "calm" her and Minemei is mother to all life. Then look at the following images along with the previous abridge version. And I realize I don't want to read that crap.

Building on the analogy you used, what Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are doing is the equivalent of buying a pizza, then sneaking it into the kitchen, popping it into the oven, and acting like you made it yourself from scratch.

Then Forgetting to throw away the box and people say you didn't make it while avid acquaintances say you own the pizza chain when everyone knows you don't.

rt_swimsuit.bmp

Edited October 13, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Gubaba]

Speaking of the JT podcast, that was quite refreshing. While I do know many level headed Robotech fans, it's great to actually hear a podcast from one of them. It seems that those of us whom are Robotech fans as well (yes, I am one of them to an extent) seem to have a very similar opinion on the status of their franchise. His podcast is very good, and perhaps if there were more of him around who were vocal, Robotech wouldn't be in the crap pit they're in. HP, you should have your friend come here and read the positive reviews he receives here. Not just for any negative remarks he's made, but somply because he's a good podcaster, and is a fan that can respect all things. I'll be listening more, not live, but I'll be listening to the uploaded episodes.

Well, I'm not a Robotech fan in the slightest, and even I like JT's podcast. I think a lot of it is that he really does sound like he's having a blast, and in an infectious way.

[Moly_Sigang]

Then Forgetting to throw away the box and people say you didn't make it while avid acquaintances say you own the pizza chain when everyone knows you don't.

And then those who said that you don't own the pizza chain will get kicked out of the house.

[Gubaba]

I will just go ahead and say that Robotech has and will always be a great "gateway" anime in my opinion. That was the entire purpose of Robotech in the first place: entertain young American viewers with an animated show in English that they can all jump right into, not deliver a loyal anime adaption that only a small number of otaku would enjoy.

Enh, I think that Pokemon, Naruto, Bleach, and whatever new iteration of Gundam is airing serve that purpose better these days. AND they manage to be more faithful to the original than Robotech was.

[Save]

Speaking of the JT podcast, that was quite refreshing. While I do know many level headed Robotech fans, it's great to actually hear a podcast from one of them. It seems that those of us whom are Robotech fans as well (yes, I am one of them to an extent) seem to have a very similar opinion on the status of their franchise. His podcast is very good, and perhaps if there were more of him around who were vocal, Robotech wouldn't be in the crap pit they're in. HP, you should have your friend come here and read the positive reviews he receives here. Not just for any negative remarks he's made, but somply because he's a good podcaster, and is a fan that can respect all things. I'll be listening more, not live, but I'll be listening to the uploaded episodes.

I've been doing the RT podcast rounds too. JT's podcast is OK, allot of rehash since there isn't much most of us don't already know as far as the original 85. I skip all the shout outs and commercials. I do wish he would pronounce ROBOTECH correctly. When he says it, it sounds like Rubatack. He does put allot of work into his show so I'm sure it will get better.

Speaking of getting better even Doug's show has improved 10 fold. As far as RT stuff his points are pretty valid. When he tries to prove points that are in comparison of RT to macross / anime / scifi he uses mostly what I guess he truly believes to be facts when they are mostly stereotype and personal opinions which for me make the show even more entertaining. I would say his new format is the best out of RT podcasts.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Save

[Freiflug88]

Enh, I think that Pokemon, Naruto, Bleach, and whatever new iteration of Gundam is airing serve that purpose better these days. AND they manage to be more faithful to the original than Robotech was.

Its also why new fans have little or no exposure to the great classics as they get bombarded with all the new flashy crap on TV. In my case though if Robotech was faithful I would probably won't have bothered seeking out SDF Macross and DYRL in Japanese. I also care more about actually being entertained then how faithful to the orginal a dub is. For instance I always watch Macross II English dubbed because Steve Blum's Lord Feff performace is just kick ass and much better suited for the role then using Tōru Furuya's (Amaro Ray) boyish voice.

[Gubaba]

Its also why new fans have little or no exposure to the great classics as they get bombarded with all the new flashy crap on TV. In my case though if Robotech was faithful I would probably won't have bothered seeking out SDF Macross and DYRL in Japanese. I also care more about actually being entertained then how faithful to the orginal a dub is. For instance I always watch Macross II English dubbed because Steve Blum's Lord Feff performace is just kick ass and much better suited for the role then using Tōru Furuya's (Amaro Ray) boyish voice.

So you can't be entertaining AND faithful?

Peronsally, I'd rather see a movie/read a book/watch a show that assumes I don't need everything calibrated specifically to my cultural background in order for me to enjoy it.

Or let me put it another way...if there had been a better, uncut version of Macross out there instead of Robotech, are you saying that wouldn't have been enough to get you into it? What was it about Robotech that made it more palatable for you?

[Einherjar]

Speaking of getting better even Doug's show has improved 10 fold. As far as RT stuff his points are pretty valid. When he tries to prove points that are in comparison of RT to macross / anime / scifi he uses mostly what I guess he truly believes to be facts when they are mostly stereotype and personal opinions which for me make the show even more entertaining. I would say his new format is the best out of RT podcasts.

Which one of his shows are you talking about? There's the original podcast, his vidcast on youtube, and something called Robotech 00, which I guess is supposed to be more hardcore than the original. Does it make up for the craziness that's come from him over the years?

[Jasonc]

When he tries to prove points that are in comparison of RT to macross / anime / scifi he uses mostly what I guess he truly believes to be facts when they are mostly stereotype and personal opinions which for me make the show even more entertaining. I would say his new format is the best out of RT podcasts.

Save, was that in regards to DougBendo??? While I have listened to his show (not as of late), Doug's show had some things that bothered me, namely the unfounded hatred for Macross and anything of it's offshoots. His videocasts on Youtube were a little disturbing too, but other than that, his show was decent. I'm more fasciinated by this podcast by JT. It has that old time enthusiasm of Robotech that seems to have been gone from the franchise for I can't say how long. Reminds me of what it was like to be a fan of the series w/ fervor. Still like that about Macross though.