Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[Graham]

I would think that Plus/7 era G-Suits are likely somewhat superior in performance to modern day G-suits, especially, the YF-21/VF-22 G-suit, which seems specific to the YF-21/VF-22.

However, it's extremely doubtful IMO that they come close to the performance of Ex-Gear combined with ICS.

Just my two cents.

Graham

[sketchley]

(...)

-Controls guidance of a maximum of 6 unmanned QF-4000 Ghost via Fold Wave. Named Simon, John, Peter.

(...)

3) AIF-7S Ghost vs. QF-4000 Ghost. I'm confused. Are they 2 different models or was this changed?

(...)

It could be a previously unknown and unseen unmanned fighter. Perhaps the UN Spacy continued to rely on the QF series while they worked out the bugs in the Ghost X-9.

I'm tempted to say that it's a Ghost X-9 with a QF-3000 AI controlling it; but that's wild speculation at this point.

[Killer Robot]

If they're old units destined for the scrap yard...

not to mention that these things happen in real life. Refer to all the nuke tests using captured and retired navel vessel.

That's the odd thing, since at the time of Macross Plus the VF-11 was only a ten year old design and the current front line fighter. If they were raiding the scrap heap like real practices, or like the destroids and Zentradi mecha being used, I would have expected VF-1s and VF-4s.

It could be a previously unknown and unseen unmanned fighter. Perhaps the UN Spacy continued to rely on the QF series while they worked out the bugs in the Ghost X-9.

I'm tempted to say that it's a Ghost X-9 with a QF-3000 AI controlling it; but that's wild speculation at this point.

Speculation or not, that's more or less what I'd assumed was the case.

[azrael]

It could be a previously unknown and unseen unmanned fighter. Perhaps the UN Spacy continued to rely on the QF series while they worked out the bugs in the Ghost X-9.

I'm tempted to say that it's a Ghost X-9 with a QF-3000 AI controlling it; but that's wild speculation at this point.

I wonder if those QF-4000 are SMS-specific Ghosts since they employ fold communication for telemetry data. The AIF-7S is the NUNS-version.

[sketchley]

That's the odd thing, since at the time of Macross Plus the VF-11 was only a ten year old design and the current front line fighter. If they were raiding the scrap heap like real practices, or like the destroids and Zentradi mecha being used, I would have expected VF-1s and VF-4s.

It's possible if the planes were already badly damaged ("strap a few boosters on it, son. Just make it fly straight and level") or if the people doing the test wanted up-to-date combat performance data.

There's always the real-life reasoning as well: it'd be far easier, cheaper and also give a sense of in-universe continuity/consistancy if a design was recycled. Though, come to think of it, they do have the practice drone in the first episode. So, there is a specific reason why a VF-11 based target drone is used.

[bullet101]

It's possible if the planes were already badly damaged ("strap a few boosters on it, son. Just make it fly straight and level") or if the people doing the test wanted up-to-date combat performance data.

There's always the real-life reasoning as well: it'd be far easier, cheaper and also give a sense of in-universe continuity/consistancy if a design was recycled. Though, come to think of it, they do have the practice drone in the first episode. So, there is a specific reason why a VF-11 based target drone is used.

Perhaps they wanted to test the Ghost against the current UN Spacy standard that at the time was most likely just above parity with any hostile craft that it might come up against?

Another thought is perhaps variable fighters have a short front line life span because of their very nature. I mean all that extreme maneuvering plus changing form fighter to gerwalk to battroid has got to put a hell of alot of stress on the airframe and eventually this will lead to alot of fatigue on critical componants, thus eventually rendering the aircraft unfit for frontline service.

[DarkReaper]

I wonder how large the ratio service hours: flight hours is. Probably several hundred.

[Mr March]

One to two weeks on the ground for each hour of flight time? I very much doubt that. Several hundred hours turnaround would make the variable fighters completely impractical for any kind of main line service role.

[ChronoReverse]

Considering how fast Alto seems to get back his plane despite the condition he returns them in, a hundred hours to one seems extreme for the average case.

[DarkReaper]

In reality a VF would work for the first 2 minutes of battle and them jam up in any given mode because of battledamage to servos and panels screwing up the delicate transformation process. There is just too much stuff on these things that are stressed to their limits in combat and have to be replaced.

[Mr March]

Well, that's a whole other issue entirely. And really, variable fighter service turnaround is quite low on the list of things in Macross that wouldn't work in reality

[edwin3060]

Considering how quickly Roy's VF-1S could patch up Hikaru's VF-1D with the aid of a few tentacle-waldos, the VFs may be more easy to service than we think! Besides, even fighter jets nowadays have self-diagnostic and limited self-repair properties(or rerouting of systems around damaged parts to restore functionality). Think of how much more advanced it can be!

[David Hingtgen]

Umm, 200 man-hours service doesn't mean 200 hours of time--it could mean 2 guys working 100 hours, 20 guys working 10 hours, or 400 guys working 30 mins. Just assume there's a LOT of mechanics on board.

[Final Vegeta]

As for the even higher limits of the VF-22, it could simply be because it no longer used the bleeding-edge deforming wing and thus the structural integrity was improved. The more powerful engines could also contribute to increase the durability of the ECA. One thing that is quite noticeable is how the VF-22, despite being deployed after the VF-19S, has significantly lower thrust. This could nicely tie in by supposing more energy has been diverted to the ECA or something.

No, it's not that.

VF-22's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2450B

VF-19's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2550J

(I'm having some kind of deja-vu )

By the way, YF-21's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2450B

This, coupled with the fact that the YF-21 and the VF-22 share the same kind vernier thrusters, suggests that the VF-22 is more a modified YF-21 than a totally new VF.

By the way, the VF-22's particularity is that it can hold two big missiles in the ventral bay in fighter mode (as shown in Macross 7). This may raise maximum T-O mass beyond the standards of other "vanilla" VFs, thus implying a stronger stress on the airframe.

As stated, if the g-limit was calculated for standard mass (without ventral missiles), then the overall g-limit for full load may be lower and in ranges more normal for a VF, making the VF-22 a strategical bomber as agile as a fighter.

On the contrary, if 27.5g is the limit of a VF-25 calculated with a protector armor full of missiles, then the standard mass g-limit will be higher.

Human limits notwithstanding.

FV

[Mr March]

400 guys working 30 minutes? Hmmm, a crew of 120,000 mechanics for 300 Valkyries.

Sounds like a logistics nightmare and no elbow room around that poor valkyrie

[ChronoReverse]

No, it's not that.

VF-22's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2450B

VF-19's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2550J

(I'm having some kind of deja-vu )

By the way, YF-21's thermonuclear engines:

FF-2450B

Interesting. They did some major tuning to that engine then because the thrust for the VF-22 is also significantly higher.

[David Hingtgen]

FYI, many modern "different" jet engines are physically identical, it's only the controlling software that makes them run at certain thrust levels. (many modern large diesel engines in trucks and locomotives are the same--the 3900hp, 4000hp, and 4400hp versions are all the same--and they can be reprogrammed as needed)

In fact, one of the common early 777 engines no longer exists---every single one has gotten the "ver 1.6" software or whatever that effectively makes it a different, more powerful engine--the original version has even been removed from the FAA's type certificate.

Swissair converted every one of their 60,000lb thrust MD-11 engines to the 62,000lb version--just by changing "a little black box" on them.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar exists for valks. (really, the difference in software is mainly for warranty/maintenance/reliability/fuel efficiency---restricting its max output makes everything else better)

Even the F-15 has a small "limiter" built in, an F-15 can normally never achieve 100% thrust, and isn't even trimmed to do so. They're usually "2 steps down" from maximum, to make them more reliable. I would imagine they're re-trimmed when possible in times of war, but even that may be too time-consuming unless it's a prolonged (6 months+) operation.

And there's some pretty major conversions you can do to an engine---best example is the 707. Converting turbojets to turbofans. The early 707's were NOT re-engined as commonly believed--that'd cost too much. They actually converted the engines themselves. The original 13,000lb JT3C's became 18,000lb JT3D's---just need one more turbine stage, a compressor fan added up front, and a new nacelle to house it all. HUGE boost in power.

[Letigre]

That's the odd thing, since at the time of Macross Plus the VF-11 was only a ten year old design and the current front line fighter. If they were raiding the scrap heap like real practices, or like the destroids and Zentradi mecha being used, I would have expected VF-1s and VF-4s.

Which oddly enough I don't recall seeing any VF's, obsolete or otherwise, used as targets in New Edwards tests. Of course that could just be per Col. Mlllard's own views and preferences on the matter.

I'm still lead to believe that Gen. Gomez was simply being a "Class A douche" about the whole AI fighter concept, and just special ordered a bunch of drone Thunderbolts for the X-9 to blow up in front of his superiors, just to hammer his point across.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Letigre

[ChronoReverse]

FYI, many modern "different" jet engines are physically identical, it's only the controlling software that makes them run at certain thrust levels. (many modern large diesel engines in trucks and locomotives are the same--the 3900hp, 4000hp, and 4400hp versions are all the same--and they can be reprogrammed as needed)

Ah, that's quite interesting.

Nonetheless, a more powerful set of engines, even if they're still called the same name, could mean increasing structural strength would be needed.

Edited December 2, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[taksraven]

Umm, 200 man-hours service doesn't mean 200 hours of time--it could mean 2 guys working 100 hours, 20 guys working 10 hours, or 400 guys working 30 mins. Just assume there's a LOT of mechanics on board.

The largest part of the workforce eh, and the one least seen.

Taksraven

[RedWolf]

Which oddly enough I don't recall seeing any VF's, obsolete or otherwise, used as targets in New Edwards tests. Of course that could just be per Col. Mlllard's own views and preferences on the matter.

I'm still lead to believe that Gen. Gomez was simply being a "Class A douche" about the whole AI fighter concept, and just special ordered a bunch of drone Thunderbolts for the X-9 to blow up in front of his superiors, just to hammer his point across.

Well Gomez is in the humans and Zentradi shouldn't fight much less send a living person to a battle camp.

Yeah sidestep that whole issue by sending inhuman machines to fight.

Oh yeah Sketchley said something about a VF-24 in another thread.

Anymore info on that? Though from the Frontier ep the VF-25 was based on the YF-24 it makes you wonder about the mass production model of it.

Edited December 2, 2008 by RedWolf

[azrael]

Oh yeah Sketchley said something about a VF-24 in another thread.

Anymore info on that? Though from the Frontier ep the VF-25 was based on the YF-24 it makes you wonder about the mass production model of it.

Maybe a misprint. Model Graphix is a modeling magazine so I won't put too much faith in their writings. Advertisements, yes. Reproduction of production notes.....maybe.

[Zinjo]

VF-25G

-SSL-9B Dragunov(?)

Yes the spelling is correct. It's from the Russian "SVD Dragunov" sniper rifle.

The liner notes and Chronicle said it was some system that MF ran across for resources. Official File vol. 2 mentions that Shinsei Industries sent designs for the YF-24 to the fleets. And since both the VF-25 and VF-27 are based on the YF-24, it makes some sense that the first test flight was not done on Eden but was localized to where the Frontier fleet was.

I like the direction this has taken in the universe.

Shinsei Industries et al still develop the new fighters, but their final development is handled by localized colony industries. I suspect the final design specs are then sent back to Shinsei or NUNS for official designations.

Hence the Galaxy's VF-27 which took a more modern design direction along the VF-19 & VF-22 generation lines, whereas the VF-25 took more vintage design cues from the earlier VF designs with mission specific bolt on weapons packs.

The intriguing idea is that the base YF-24 design could spawn several versions based on the same airframe. Ranging from a basic VF-24 fighter through to the ultra advanced VF-27 design.

[Letigre]

I like the direction this has taken in the universe.

Shinsei Industries et al still develop the new fighters, but their final development is handled by localized colony industries. I suspect the final design specs are then sent back to Shinsei or NUNS for official designations.

Hence the Galaxy's VF-27 which took a more modern design direction along the VF-19 & VF-22 generation lines, whereas the VF-25 took more vintage design cues from the earlier VF designs with mission specific bolt on weapons packs.

The intriguing idea is that the base YF-24 design could spawn several versions based on the same airframe. Ranging from a basic VF-24 fighter through to the ultra advanced VF-27 design.

I like it too.

I think it makes sense to farm out final development and production out to individual fleets and colonies, if only because given the vast distances that humanity has spread out, and it's already impractical to keep production centralized. Shinsei probably saves a bit having only to develop and test only a prototype. Beyond that they only have to sell and distribute those schematics and findings, rather than work up a fleshed out production model (or even plans!)

It also lends to versatility, because it allows individual governments to develop and tailor a design to a fighter that meets their specific needs or desires. A massive fleet like Frontier has different concerns (and adversaries ) than a smaller fleet.

[anime52k8]

Yes the spelling is correct. It's from the Russian "SVD Dragunov" sniper rifle.

It's just SVD, or Dragunov sniper rife. not "SVD Dragunov" the D in SVD stands for Dragunova so your basically saying "Sniper Rifle Dragunov Dragunov"

ok, I'm done being anal now.

[azrael]

It's just SVD, or Dragunov sniper rife. not "SVD Dragunov" the D in SVD stands for Dragunova so your basically saying "Sniper Rifle Dragunov Dragunov"

I probably should have made that clearer. It's not a spelling error. More like a footnote for me to go back on.

The characters in the liner notes are written as "ドラグノフ". I could have left it as is, but after repeating it out loud to myself several dozen times, it sounded more and more like the SVD rifle (and with guns, I have some knowledge of those) so and after researching a few pages of the SVD (mainly for pronounciation), I wrote it as such.

[sketchley]

I probably should have made that clearer. It's not a spelling error. More like a footnote for me to go back on.

The characters in the liner notes are written as "ドラグノフ". I could have left it as is, but after repeating it out loud to myself several dozen times, it sounded more and more like the SVD rifle (and with guns, I have some knowledge of those) so and after researching a few pages of the SVD (mainly for pronounciation), I wrote it as such.

Is that ドラグノフ" or ドラグノフ? Please use [square brackets] when quoting Japanese. (Or one better, the actual Japanese quote marks 「」).

[azrael]

Is that ドラグノフ" or ドラグノフ? Please use [square brackets] when quoting Japanese. (Or one better, the actual Japanese quote marks 「」).

[ドラグノフ]

[Vostok 7]

Probably already been discussed, but is there a "CF" version of the VF-25? I noticed the VF-25G has a -0A-style head. I like the idea of a sniper-specialty VF, though

Vostok 7

[Morpheus]

Probably already been discussed, but is there a "CF" version of the VF-25? I noticed the VF-25G has a -0A-style head. I like the idea of a sniper-specialty VF, though

Vostok 7

There are dozens of CF colored VF-25 at the last episode, also VF-25 holds the record for the best survivability in the hand of a CF pilots with none got shot down, while few VF-25 piloted by main characters mostly got blown up.

[anime52k8]

There are dozens of CF colored VF-25 at the last episode, also VF-25 holds the record for the best survivability in the hand of a CF pilots with none got shot down, while few VF-25 piloted by main characters mostly got blown up.

you know what it was, it was the half fast packs.

and the CF VF-25's are identical to the VF-25G accept for the lack of sniper rifle. (so would they be VF-25A's, or VF-25G's as well?)

[edwin3060]

you know what it was, it was the half fast packs.

and the CF VF-25's are identical to the VF-25G accept for the lack of sniper rifle. (so would they be VF-25A's, or VF-25G's as well?)

half fast packs? What do you mean? Also, I suspect that they should be VF-25A's lacking the specialised sniper equipment (targeting computer, metal anchoring spike, Dragunov, etc)

There has never been a better time to be cannon fodder!

Edited December 5, 2008 by edwin3060

[Graham]

Probably already been discussed, but is there a "CF" version of the VF-25? I noticed the VF-25G has a -0A-style head. I like the idea of a sniper-specialty VF, though

Vostok 7

Throughout the series we see numerous shots of cannon fodder VF-25 in fighter mode in the SMS hanger.

IIRC we also see the tan cannon fodder VF-25 in action when several of them launch together with Ozma after SMS turns pirate.

And of course there is the final episode as already mentioned.

Graham

[anime52k8]

half fast packs? What do you mean? Also, I suspect that they should be VF-25A's lacking the specialised sniper equipment (targeting computer, metal anchoring spike, Dragunov, etc)

There has never been a better time to be cannon fodder!

in either episode 21 or 22 (somewhere around there, right before they introduced the VF-171EX) several CF's are shown with the leg armor from the super packs attached but without the main boosters.

[Kelsain]

I thought it would have been interesting if the 25F was the basic model. The only main char. we see with a traditional A-style head was Michel, who had the sniper thing going on. Just think, would it not have been a nifty device if the protagonist was flying a CF for the whole series?