New Star Trek Movie In 2009..

[Sumdumgai]

Well to explain my "meh" for the Excelsior. The only starfleet ship I had as a toy as a kid was the Excelsior, and I could never find the Enterprise. I think my bitterness about it made me not like the design. Plus, I like the sleek swept back nacelles, over the brackets holding up nacelles look.

I didn't like the Reliant much either. It made me think of a head attached to feet. But I like the Excelsior better than the Reliant.

[Fit For Natalie]

Half agree. I do really like the Excelsior, but that's ultimately why I like the Sovereign best. It had the same long, sleek design with the long nacelles and the saucer section sitting on a short, thick "neck," but in a more advanced design. John Eaves and Rick Sternbach have even cited the Excelsior as an inspiration for the Sovereign and an intention that the Sovereign would serve as the Excelsior's successor within the Trek universe.

Same here - the Soveriegn and the Defiant are part of what I call Starfleet behaving logically, in concentrating on defense issues in an increasingly dangerous universe that largely does not share the same values as the Federation.

Never a fan of the Galaxy - it's kind of fat looking, front heavy. In terms of specifications, it's slow at impulse, has relatively poor armaments (only two torpedo launchers?) and it isn't very durable judging by how easily such a ship is taken out in several episodes. I'd imagine it's size makes it quite costly, too.

My favourite Trek ship of all is the Defiant - don't mess with the Defiant

[HoveringCheesecake]

My only problem with the Defiant is the weapons. It is supposed to have more phaser power than a Galaxy class.

Akira is my #1 favorite followed by the Nebula.

And what is with the Galaxy hate? It's the largest (by volume) ship produced by Starfleet. I wouldn't expect any ship to survive several kamikaze attacks.

[David Hingtgen]

Galaxy seems to have poor offense for such a large ship. 1701-A seems to be able to fire off more phasers and torps.

PS---yes, the Sovereign is the best "new" design in a while because it emulates (purposely) the Excelsior.

Miranda's nice, I actually prefer the on-screen 'upside down' version. And it established a trend. Again, we see the Nebula class based on it. (To me, Nebulas look a lot better than Galaxy, though Ambassador is what a Galaxy should have looked like)

The fact that so many ships share parts makes a lot of sense. Mainly saucers and nacelles. There's really no need to make completely new nacelles for every class, when they're just stuck on pylons away from the hull. Nacelles should be difficult to design and perfect, and not every class should have its own unique design. Kinda surprised we never saw any other class with Excelsior-style, since there were so many of those built. (Centaur doesn't count, kit-bashed freak)

I don't like the Akira (but don't hate it), but it's the best of the "designed for First Contact" ships--all the others don't look like federation designs at all---no clear nacelles, no saucer. They're like "angular Defiant variations".

PPS---is everyone aware that the Saber-class design is lost? Apparently there was only ever one file for it at ILM, and it only exists as that CGI model--there's not even a basic 3-view CAD created of it. And some intern apparently deleted the file. So we'll never see the Saber class again. Even if it's rebuilt---there's no references/angles for some 40% of the design from what was seen on-screen.

[mikeszekely]

My only problem with the Defiant is the weapons. It is supposed to have more phaser power than a Galaxy class.

Akira is my #1 favorite followed by the Nebula.

And what is with the Galaxy hate? It's the largest (by volume) ship produced by Starfleet. I wouldn't expect any ship to survive several kamikaze attacks.

I don't mind the Defiant having more firepower than a Galaxy. The Defiant was designed to be a warship; the Galaxy wasn't. The Defiant just seemed a little over the top at times... taking out Jem Hadar ships with a few pulse phaser blasts when that Galaxy-class whose name I'm too lazy to remember/look up went down like a little batty.

I think the difference between the Galaxy and Nebula classes and later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign is the mentality in the design. By the start of TNG, the Federation was on good terms with the Klingons and the Romulans had been mostly quiet. Space wasn't the unexplored frontier that it was in Kirk's day. Instead of an efficient design with enough weapons to defend itself from the great unknown, the Galaxy was like a cruise ship. It had accommodations for a huge crew AND their families, complete with a school for children. And a lot of the Enterprise's missions were diplomatic rather than exploratory. The weapons were kept minimal because battle was probably the last thing the designers had in mind for it.

As the series went on (and as Deep Space Nine added to the story), the Romulans started acting up, there was the threat of Borg invasion, and there was war with the Dominion. The Defiant, the Prometheus, and the Sovereign were all designed to be less the fat cruise ship that the Galaxy was and closer to serious warship.

[Sumdumgai]

While I thought the Defiant was kind of ugly and "little", I liked it for what it was. A no nonsense warship that could take a beating and still pound the living crap out of other ships. I like it.

[Vermillion21]

Can someone post some pics of these other StarFleet class ships??

I have no idea what the Soveriegn class looks like ....

[eugimon]

Can someone post some pics of these other StarFleet class ships??

I have no idea what the Soveriegn class looks like ....

the sovereign is the current incarnation of the Enterprise as sean in First Contact through Nemesis.

Here's a write up and some pictures on startrek.com: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/libr...icle/71711.html

I have to admit, I like the intrepid class as well, though I never really understood the variable angle nacelle thing.

Edited November 17, 2007 by eugimon

[mikeszekely]

Can someone post some pics of these other StarFleet class ships??

Memory Alpha's Sovereign-class article.

Enterprise-E article at Memory Alpha.

Interesting article about the designing of the Enterprise-E.

Fleet chart showing the sizes of different Federation ships in relation to each other. The Sovereign is included. I'm sure not every size given is accepted as canon, but their are articles on the rest of Ex Astris Scientia website to justify the lengths given.

I have to admit, I like the intrepid class as well, though I never really understood the variable angle nacelle thing.

Something about standard warp drives causing subspace distortions, and the variable geometry of the nacelles compensates for it, allowing for faster speeds, I guess. Supposedly the newer design of the nacelles on the Sovereign correct the issue without the need for variable geometry, which is why ships newer than the Intrepid don't have VG nacelles.

Edited November 17, 2007 by mikeszekely

[Uxi]

I like the movie 1701/A design the best myself with the TOS design a runner up. No complaints about Excelsior design, though. I agree, Ent D TNG is pretty homely. Sovereign is a good design, too. I do like the evolution you can see as they go towards the Sovereign and Intepids...

NX01 "Akiraprise" definitely is an anachronism... amongst the rest of Enterprise's issues...

[vermillion01]

Can someone post some pics of these other StarFleet class ships??

I have no idea what the Soveriegn class looks like ....

I'm sure most of the trek 'vets' know about this site, but if you've never checked it out... do so!

http://www.ditl.org/

[HoveringCheesecake]

PPS---is everyone aware that the Saber-class design is lost? Apparently there was only ever one file for it at ILM, and it only exists as that CGI model--there's not even a basic 3-view CAD created of it. And some intern apparently deleted the file. So we'll never see the Saber class again. Even if it's rebuilt---there's no references/angles for some 40% of the design from what was seen on-screen.

That's the Norway class. IIRC the Saber was in some of the DS9 battles.

Good Star Trek ship websites:

http://www.ditl.org/

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/

Haha beaten by hours with the links.

I don't mind the Defiant having more firepower than a Galaxy. The Defiant was designed to be a warship; the Galaxy wasn't. The Defiant just seemed a little over the top at times... taking out Jem Hadar ships with a few pulse phaser blasts when that Galaxy-class whose name I'm too lazy to remember/look up went down like a little batty.

I think the difference between the Galaxy and Nebula classes and later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign is the mentality in the design. By the start of TNG, the Federation was on good terms with the Klingons and the Romulans had been mostly quiet. Space wasn't the unexplored frontier that it was in Kirk's day. Instead of an efficient design with enough weapons to defend itself from the great unknown, the Galaxy was like a cruise ship. It had accommodations for a huge crew AND their families, complete with a school for children. And a lot of the Enterprise's missions were diplomatic rather than exploratory. The weapons were kept minimal because battle was probably the last thing the designers had in mind for it.

The Defiant having more phaser power than the Galaxy makes no sense. Where does the Defiant get all of its power from? It's a small ship, so one would think the strength would be at least somewhat proportional. You are right in saying that the Galaxy isn't a battleship, but it certainly wasn't a cruise ship. It was more of an exploration vessel that was more than capable of defending itself.

Also, are we sure that all Galaxy class ships had families? I haven't seen the DS9 episode with the Odyssey, so I really have no idea.

One last thing - anyone play Bridge Commander? I reinstalled that a few weeks ago and tried to get some mods installed... what an ordeal. It has to have the most cumbersome mod installation process around.

Edited November 18, 2007 by meh_cd

[eugimon]

That's the Norway class. IIRC the Saber was in some of the DS9 battles.

Good Star Trek ship websites:

http://www.ditl.org/

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/

Haha beaten by hours with the links.

The Defiant having more phaser power than the Galaxy makes no sense. Where does the Defiant get all of its power from? It's a small ship, so one would think the strength would be at least somewhat proportional. You are right in saying that the Galaxy isn't a battleship, but it certainly wasn't a cruise ship. It was more of an exploration vessel that was more than capable of defending itself.

Also, are we sure that all Galaxy class ships had families? I haven't seen the DS9 episode with the Odyssey, so I really have no idea.

I recall in DS9 that they originally scrapped the defiant project because it was so overpowered.

And yeah, in that one episode where the enterprice C comes forward in time, whoopie specifically talks about how wonky the galaxy class is if it were designed to be a warship. I think other episodes mentioned that the galaxy class has families and what not.

[David Hingtgen]

Semi-canon (but on the "upper end" of semi-canon):

6 Galaxy class intially built. Annother 6 had their frames built, but never had their weapons/engines/interiors etc installed and were put into storage.

We know the names of more than 6 and have seen almost as many un-named ones, so presumably at least some of them are from the "spare" 6 half-built. The Venture with its extra phaser banks on the nacelles is likely one of them, lending support to the idea that these later Galaxy class were finished because of either the Borg or Dominion threat, and likely dispensed with fitting out the interiors for families and diplomatic missions, and maybe even sacrified scientific equipment, in order to finish them as quickly as possible and equip them for battle.

(The REAL reason the Venture has extra phasers is because it's actually the 3-engined 1701-D model from the last ep of TNG)

Also, based on many we've seen, I'm betting there's a lot more than 12 by the end of DS9, otherwise that means we've seen basically all of them---and pretty much the entire remaining class in a single battle.

[HoveringCheesecake]

I recall in DS9 that they originally scrapped the defiant project because it was so overpowered.

And yeah, in that one episode where the enterprice C comes forward in time, whoopie specifically talks about how wonky the galaxy class is if it were designed to be a warship. I think other episodes mentioned that the galaxy class has families and what not.

Do you mean that the show scrapped it or they scrapped it in-universe?

The Defiant was originally designed to fight the Borg, and then when their huge invasion didn't pan out Starfleet decided to set it on the backburner.

You're right about the families.

Semi-canon (but on the "upper end" of semi-canon):

6 Galaxy class intially built. Annother 6 had their frames built, but never had their weapons/engines/interiors etc installed and were put into storage.

We know the names of more than 6 and have seen almost as many un-named ones, so presumably at least some of them are from the "spare" 6 half-built. The Venture with its extra phaser banks on the nacelles is likely one of them, lending support to the idea that these later Galaxy class were finished because of either the Borg or Dominion threat, and likely dispensed with fitting out the interiors for families and diplomatic missions, and maybe even sacrified scientific equipment, in order to finish them as quickly as possible and equip them for battle.

(The REAL reason the Venture has extra phasers is because it's actually the 3-engined 1701-D model from the last ep of TNG)

Also, based on many we've seen, I'm betting there's a lot more than 12 by the end of DS9, otherwise that means we've seen basically all of them---and pretty much the entire remaining class in a single battle.

Yep. We know the names of 8, 3 of which have been destroyed (Yamato, Odyssey, Enterprise-D) and one of which was only in an alternate-reality Voyager episode (Challenger). That leaves four, and considering that the fleets on DS9 had 3-4 by themselves I'm sure there are at least 12 total.

Edited November 18, 2007 by meh_cd

[mikeszekely]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if only 12-14 Galaxy-class ships were built. They were large, ostentatious ships that, if the Enterprise D was any indication, were used mostly for diplomatic and humanitarian missions. The Excelsior looks like it was probably still the fleet's main workhorse until the late 2360's. After Wolf-359, I'm sure they'd want to use any existing frames to quickly rebuild the fleet, but I don't really see them building more when newer ships were more practical and probably cheaper. I mean, the Sovereign-class is longer, but it has something like half the total decks than the Galaxy.

[myk]

After Wolf-359, I'm sure they'd want to use any existing frames to quickly rebuild the fleet, but I don't really see them building more when newer ships were more practical and probably cheaper. I mean, the Sovereign-class is longer, but it has something like half the total decks than the Galaxy.

That was supposively the direction that starship design took beginning with the introduction of the Intrepid class: ships that were smaller, more efficient, and mission specific, as opposed to ships like the Galaxy that were big, needy and could "do it all," although I forget where I read that bit. The TNG 'tech manual maybe?

The Galaxy class is relatively weak for two reasons: Arrogance-during the Galaxy's inception the Federation was flourishing with the peace they had with the Klingons, the Romulans were no where to be found and the Federation ruled the known galaxy, more or less. So heck, why not build a giant spacecraft that could even take families along with it, ignorant of any danger in outer space. The Galaxy was called the ship of peace because it was conceived during peace. The Sovereign and all of that other stuff were products of wartime, when the Dominion, Borg and everyone else was trying to take the Federation.

Secondly, the writers hadn't thought of "advanced" weaponry beyond what they had for TNG-remember that the D was state of the art and few ships could touch it in the series. If the Galaxy had been conceived during the First Contact days it too would be bristling with the newer quantam torpedoes, type XIII phasers, pulse phasers and whatnot.

Besides, with 12 phaser banks, 3 'torp tubes AND the ability to split into two fighting vehicles I still say "bring it!"

Edited November 18, 2007 by myk

[Fit For Natalie]

And what is with the Galaxy hate? It's the largest (by volume) ship produced by Starfleet. I wouldn't expect any ship to survive several kamikaze attacks.

The Enterprise D was taken out by a B'rel class destroyer (a frigate by Federation standards). Even with shields not working you'd expect the flagship to take more punishment than that. It's kind of TNG syndrome - any damage WHATSOEVER to the ship results in a warp core breach.

The Defiant having more phaser power than the Galaxy makes no sense. Where does the Defiant get all of its power from? It's a small ship, so one would think the strength would be at least somewhat proportional. You are right in saying that the Galaxy isn't a battleship, but it certainly wasn't a cruise ship. It was more of an exploration vessel that was more than capable of defending itself.

Also, are we sure that all Galaxy class ships had families? I haven't seen the DS9 episode with the Odyssey, so I really have no idea.

One last thing - anyone play Bridge Commander? I reinstalled that a few weeks ago and tried to get some mods installed... what an ordeal. It has to have the most cumbersome mod installation process around.

The Defiant has a compact Class VII warp drive was extremely powerful for it's size, and as such, the Defiant's warp signature equivalent to much larger starships. As this was consistant throughout DS9, we can take this to mean the Defiant's warp drive (warp core and engine systems) were equivalent in sheer power generation to larger cruisers. Add that to the fact pulse phaser cannons are more powerful than standard collimated phaser arrays and that the Defiant has absolutely no other systems other than what is required for combat, there's your reason why the Defiant is so powerful.

That said, the Defiant is not invincible, has has serious flaws, such as it's slow maximum warp speed (9.5 versus an average of 9.7 in most ships of that era); most of it's weapons are concentrated on a forward arc, meaning it has a hard time dealing with enemies who approach from other angles, particularly the rear.

What I don't like about the Galaxy was it's opulence, a luxury cruise liner with interiors like an overlit hotel designed to host the Alien With Funny Forehead of the Week. The Odyssey offloaded civilians and non-essential personnel before she went into the wormhole.

I love Bridge Commander, and yes it is complicated to install mods if one isn't a modder or tinkerer themselves. One dodgy file (especially one used globally by the game) can cause the dread Black screen of death. I highly recommend that you install NanoFX for fancy effects and DS9 FX, which mods most of the classes to DS9-era specifications and adds quick battle missions, such as the death of the Odyssey.

Semi-canon (but on the "upper end" of semi-canon):

6 Galaxy class intially built. Annother 6 had their frames built, but never had their weapons/engines/interiors etc installed and were put into storage.

We know the names of more than 6 and have seen almost as many un-named ones, so presumably at least some of them are from the "spare" 6 half-built. The Venture with its extra phaser banks on the nacelles is likely one of them, lending support to the idea that these later Galaxy class were finished because of either the Borg or Dominion threat, and likely dispensed with fitting out the interiors for families and diplomatic missions, and maybe even sacrified scientific equipment, in order to finish them as quickly as possible and equip them for battle.

(The REAL reason the Venture has extra phasers is because it's actually the 3-engined 1701-D model from the last ep of TNG)

Also, based on many we've seen, I'm betting there's a lot more than 12 by the end of DS9, otherwise that means we've seen basically all of them---and pretty much the entire remaining class in a single battle.

In Voyager's 'Relativity', during the Utopia Planitia scene, at least 3 Galaxy class ships were under construction, and at least 5 defended Earth in the last episode of Voyager.

The Venture later appeared in Season 6 of DS9 without the 'All Good Things' phaser banks as they based the new CG model on the original ILM Galaxy class model. It participated in the Big Fleet Battle to retake DS9 and was one of the surviving Galaxys that took the Chin'toka system at the end of season 6.

The prototype USS Galaxy was the Galaxy class that was hit very hard by the cardi orbital weapons platforms, but survived. It was later assigned to the battle group that was supposed to escort the Enterprise out of Romulan space in 'Nemesis'.

Yep. We know the names of 8, 3 of which have been destroyed (Yamato, Odyssey, Enterprise-D) and one of which was only in an alternate-reality Voyager episode (Challenger). That leaves four, and considering that the fleets on DS9 had 3-4 by themselves I'm sure there are at least 12 total.

According to Memory Alpha, only six Galaxy class ships were named. Also, the USS Challenger appeared as one of Voyager's escorts in 'Endgame'. Though this is probably because of the reused CGI model, this means the Challenger exists in the 'normal' universe.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if only 12-14 Galaxy-class ships were built. They were large, ostentatious ships that, if the Enterprise D was any indication, were used mostly for diplomatic and humanitarian missions. The Excelsior looks like it was probably still the fleet's main workhorse until the late 2360's. After Wolf-359, I'm sure they'd want to use any existing frames to quickly rebuild the fleet, but I don't really see them building more when newer ships were more practical and probably cheaper. I mean, the Sovereign-class is longer, but it has something like half the total decks than the Galaxy.

The Miranda and Excelsior are still largely the workhorses of Starfleet, being the most numerous ships they have. In the Dominion War they're cannon fodder.

[TehPW]

Wow... for a bunch of Macrossoid Otaku, you guys seriously lack of something for ST topics...

Read that as: I thought we was talking about Snore Trek?

anyway, DiTL, Ex Astris Scientia and a few others are very good sites to smuggle ST cannon and speculative info. Certainly EAS with all the various indepth reviews of battles (especially Wolf 359) discussed over the years. Sci Fi Flare is also a good forum for ST topics over the years...

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ http://flare.solareclipse.net/cgi2/ultimatebb.cgi

No go play nice on the Freeway!

[HoveringCheesecake]

The Enterprise D was taken out by a B'rel class destroyer (a frigate by Federation standards). Even with shields not working you'd expect the flagship to take more punishment than that. It's kind of TNG syndrome - any damage WHATSOEVER to the ship results in a warp core breach.

Why would we use an obvious plot device against the Galaxy class?

The Defiant has a compact Class VII warp drive was extremely powerful for it's size, and as such, the Defiant's warp signature equivalent to much larger starships. As this was consistant throughout DS9, we can take this to mean the Defiant's warp drive (warp core and engine systems) were equivalent in sheer power generation to larger cruisers. Add that to the fact pulse phaser cannons are more powerful than standard collimated phaser arrays and that the Defiant has absolutely no other systems other than what is required for combat, there's your reason why the Defiant is so powerful.

That said, the Defiant is not invincible, has has serious flaws, such as it's slow maximum warp speed (9.5 versus an average of 9.7 in most ships of that era); most of it's weapons are concentrated on a forward arc, meaning it has a hard time dealing with enemies who approach from other angles, particularly the rear.

What I don't like about the Galaxy was it's opulence, a luxury cruise liner with interiors like an overlit hotel designed to host the Alien With Funny Forehead of the Week. The Odyssey offloaded civilians and non-essential personnel before she went into the wormhole.

That... that just doesn't make sense. Why not just shove those warp drives into larger ships? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I think that DS9's reasoning for that is bogus.

I love Bridge Commander, and yes it is complicated to install mods if one isn't a modder or tinkerer themselves. One dodgy file (especially one used globally by the game) can cause the dread Black screen of death. I highly recommend that you install NanoFX for fancy effects and DS9 FX, which mods most of the classes to DS9-era specifications and adds quick battle missions, such as the death of the Odyssey.

Oh I'm a modder and a tinkerer. I remembered how to mod Armada after 7+ years. Bridge Commander is tedious by comparison.

I think I had installed NanoFX and DS9FX, and I was trying to install some new ship models. Or does DS9FX come with the models? I can't remember. It'd be so nice if everyone packaged them in that BCMI format.

According to Memory Alpha, only six Galaxy class ships were named. Also, the USS Challenger appeared as one of Voyager's escorts in 'Endgame'. Though this is probably because of the reused CGI model, this means the Challenger exists in the 'normal' universe.

EAS and ditl have 8. Memory Alpha is missing the Trinculo and Magellan. I guess they were CGI models in Sacrifice of Angels.

[eugimon]

Do you mean that the show scrapped it or they scrapped it in-universe?

The Defiant was originally designed to fight the Borg, and then when their huge invasion didn't pan out Starfleet decided to set it on the backburner.

You're right about the families.

Yep. We know the names of 8, 3 of which have been destroyed (Yamato, Odyssey, Enterprise-D) and one of which was only in an alternate-reality Voyager episode (Challenger). That leaves four, and considering that the fleets on DS9 had 3-4 by themselves I'm sure there are at least 12 total.

I don't recall the episode, but sisko was on the design team after the borg invasion and the defiant project had a hard time stabilizing the ship due to the power output so they mothballed the project until the dominion war began.

[Fit For Natalie]

Why would we use an obvious plot device against the Galaxy class?

Because it's the consistent canon depiction of a Galaxy class, unfortunately.

That... that just doesn't make sense. Why not just shove those warp drives into larger ships? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I think that DS9's reasoning for that is bogus.

Why not? It's not like Starfleet was short of warp cores (if anything, the Federation is only limited by manpower and the time it takes to build their fleets.), and the point of the Defiant was fire power and survivability at the expense of everything else, and presumably, to run the advanced, overpowered weapons they needed a powerful warp core to generate the power required.

Yeah, the Defiant project was mothballed when the Borg ceased to be a serious threat, but was restarted with the subsequent threat of the Dominion and the war with the Klingons.

Oh I'm a modder and a tinkerer. I remembered how to mod Armada after 7+ years. Bridge Commander is tedious by comparison.

I think I had installed NanoFX and DS9FX, and I was trying to install some new ship models. Or does DS9FX come with the models? I can't remember. It'd be so nice if everyone packaged them in that BCMI format.

Same here, though I was a texturer and GUI guy on the Millennium Project 2. Wow, that went nowhere. Wonder whatever happened to Deemon.

DS9FX has VERY NICE models of the Galaxy and Nebula (I recommend getting the Soverign by the same modder), Defiant, the Excelsior, Miranda, Akira, Runabouts, Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, Warbird, Jem'Hadar bug fighter and the Dominion battlecruiser. Also features the Lakota and B'rel (and probably other stuff) by my buddy Pneumonic81, one of the more famous Armada modders who now works on the Star Wars Galaxies team.

I also recommend getting all the Bridge plugin bridge sets, especially the simply superb remap and minor remodel of the Soveriegn set. The Soveriegn bridge is really nice in its duality of being stylish, yet all-business.

[John Focker]

I must be the only one in Starfleet who adores the Galaxy Class...

Don't feel alone, there are many who like the Galaxy and simply have not spoken. (I do agree though, that it's a bit front-heavy, but nothing's perfect, 90% will do for me)

I fail to see why so many find the Excelsior design attractive (although I do like the derived Sovereign), having the main body resembling a toilet bowl. (Not meant as insult, simply stating what its shape reminds me of)

The Miranda simply looks like a ship with missing torso, while the Defiant looks like the croissant that I had left forgotten in the backpack, and had since been squashed flat.

I guess beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

There, I've spoken my mind, let the barrage begin!

Edited November 19, 2007 by John Focker

[Sumdumgai]

Hey, they've casted Sarek now. I can see him as Sarek from some of the pics I've seen of him. Dunno what he sounds like though.

[big F]

It could open up Trek to a whole new generation, hopefully without anyoning the old skool supporters though.

[Sundown]

Because it's the consistent canon depiction of a Galaxy class, unfortunately.

Why not? It's not like Starfleet was short of warp cores (if anything, the Federation is only limited by manpower and the time it takes to build their fleets.), and the point of the Defiant was fire power and survivability at the expense of everything else, and presumably, to run the advanced, overpowered weapons they needed a powerful warp core to generate the power required.

The question then really should be, why bother with huge starships for combat applications when you can cram so much firepower in such a small package, requiring so little crew, and at a presumably lower cost.

Maybe there's an in-universe explanation for why starships aren't now obsolete.

[eugimon]

The question then really should be, why bother with huge starships for combat applications when you can cram so much firepower in such a small package, requiring so little crew, and at a presumably lower cost.

Maybe there's an in-universe explanation for why starships aren't now obsolete.

isnt' the the direction starfleet was heading? Make one big ship as a flag ship but surround it with smaller and more efficient designs?

Besides, starfleet also performed diplomatic and exploration duties right? Both missions would be better suited to a larger ship that could stay out for longer stretches and have more resources to handle situations alone.

[David Hingtgen]

Exactly. Before the Borg, the Feds had nothing BUT long-range exploration ships with "minimal" combat capability. Big ships with tons of supplies and crew, to go way out in the middle of nowhere and see what's there. Defense of the Federation was almost unthinkable---they were huge, with no enemies. Then the Borg, and the Dominion---and they started making smaller, more combat-oriented ships. (For all its ugliness, Voyager does remarkably well in combat)

Even the biggest new ship (Sovereign) is still significantly smaller than the Galaxy. And it's as "long-term exploration" as they'll come for some years.

I think part of the reason we see so many Mirandas and Excelsiors in combat are because they're among the few ships built with combat in mind---they were designed at the height of Klingon agression, etc. Even due to age, they might still do better than a lot of the Fed's big/new exploration ships.

[chrono]

isnt' the the direction starfleet was heading? Make one big ship as a flag ship but surround it with smaller and more efficient designs?

Pretty much. This is why the Galaxy class was demoted/promoted to a CNC/Carrier/Support ship.

The writers/producers of trek during DS9/VOY basically brought the modern naval concepts back into Trek when they found out war story's sold and brought the audiences in (This was why most of ENT was just a long war/FX story instead of humanities first steps to the stars and the creation of the Federation.).

[Fit For Natalie]

I think part of the reason we see so many Mirandas and Excelsiors in combat are because they're among the few ships built with combat in mind---they were designed at the height of Klingon agression, etc. Even due to age, they might still do better than a lot of the Fed's big/new exploration ships.

It's probably more to do with cost-effectiveness. It's cheaper for Starfleet to run perfectly good (for their job) older ships if they aren't obselete yet. As the captain of the USS Hood noted, he was stuck running errands between starbases while the 'Galaxy boys' were off to the frontier. Of course, the Hood's captain is famous and the his ship has the distinction of being the first Starfleet ship (other than the Enterprise D) to appear onscreen in TNG, and has survived various fleet actions led by the Defiant during the Dominion War.

Otherwise the Dominion War shows us the Miranda and the Excelsiors have a high attrition rate, suggesting they aren't that great at combat. Remember how the Sitek and the Majestic were taken out while escorting the Defiant?

I'd also imagine Starfleet has never been comfortable with building up new combat-ready ships such as the Akira, which is why the backbone of their fleet are still 100 year old designs. That and crews love their old ships.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Fit For Natalie

[HoveringCheesecake]

Same here, though I was a texturer and GUI guy on the Millennium Project 2. Wow, that went nowhere. Wonder whatever happened to Deemon.

DS9FX has VERY NICE models of the Galaxy and Nebula (I recommend getting the Soverign by the same modder), Defiant, the Excelsior, Miranda, Akira, Runabouts, Vor'Cha, Negh'Var, Warbird, Jem'Hadar bug fighter and the Dominion battlecruiser. Also features the Lakota and B'rel (and probably other stuff) by my buddy Pneumonic81, one of the more famous Armada modders who now works on the Star Wars Galaxies team.

I also recommend getting all the Bridge plugin bridge sets, especially the simply superb remap and minor remodel of the Soveriegn set. The Soveriegn bridge is really nice in its duality of being stylish, yet all-business.

Really? Did you visit STGN/SGN by any chance? I was at STGN when they were making the original MP. Hell I was at the original Armada boards... I can't believe that was that long ago.

And don't worry, I know who P81 is. His work is fantastic.

So it sounds like I should install NanoFX, then DS9FX, and then the Bridge Plugin? I run into trouble when I try and pile the mods on and it ends up giving me the black screen.

[Warmaker]

Ah, Star Trek games. I have at home both Bridge Commander and Starfleet Command II & III. It's been a while since I played either though, with SFC3 being the most recent.

Bridge Commander I enjoyed but installing mods was a pain, regardless of how streamlined (and I use the term loosely) it became with time, especially with multiple mods are installed already. But some of the mods, especially graphic oriented ones, are pretty sweet. And I too still recall Pneumonic81's releases for BC. It's too bad there were no complete mods to put in different races' bridge and crewmen, including voices. I would have loved to be a Klingon Captain commanding one of their warships, complete with a suitable bridge, voiceovers, and all that.

Starfleet Command II & III. I had fun with SFC2, especially since it was set in the TMP' "We Don't Take S**t From Anyone" era Federation SFC2 was also the last SFC game that still had quite a bit of sophistication in controls and commands since SFC3 was quite streamlined. I preferred the more difficult style, but oh wells. Anyways, I never finished the SFC3 campaign and got bored of it. But I tried it again a while back with Pelican's Dominion Wars mod. It was fun doing the online campaigns / war with or against other players. It was then that I became a hardcore Klingon player on that game / mod. Pretty fun tackling someone crewing a Galaxy class against you and your buddy flying B'Rel Bird of Preys It was too bad the mod died. I haven't tried SFC3 ever since.

P.S.- I also recall the relentless ranting by players about BC's voice for your Executive Officer. It aggravated alot of players to no end.

[mikeszekely]

Ah, Star Trek games. I have at home both Bridge Commander and Starfleet Command II & III. It's been a while since I played either though, with SFC3 being the most recent.

Bridge Commander I enjoyed but installing mods was a pain, regardless of how streamlined (and I use the term loosely) it became with time, especially with multiple mods are installed already. But some of the mods, especially graphic oriented ones, are pretty sweet. And I too still recall Pneumonic81's releases for BC. It's too bad there were no complete mods to put in different races' bridge and crewmen, including voices. I would have loved to be a Klingon Captain commanding one of their warships, complete with a suitable bridge, voiceovers, and all that.

Starfleet Command II & III. I had fun with SFC2, especially since it was set in the TMP' "We Don't Take S**t From Anyone" era Federation SFC2 was also the last SFC game that still had quite a bit of sophistication in controls and commands since SFC3 was quite streamlined. I preferred the more difficult style, but oh wells. Anyways, I never finished the SFC3 campaign and got bored of it. But I tried it again a while back with Pelican's Dominion Wars mod. It was fun doing the online campaigns / war with or against other players. It was then that I became a hardcore Klingon player on that game / mod. Pretty fun tackling someone crewing a Galaxy class against you and your buddy flying B'Rel Bird of Preys It was too bad the mod died. I haven't tried SFC3 ever since.

P.S.- I also recall the relentless ranting by players about BC's voice for your Executive Officer. It aggravated alot of players to no end.

I only played Starfleet Command 3. I liked it a lot, but it's buggy as hell. I got to the final mission in the game (Federation campaign, if you played in the suggested order) and finished the first part, but the event that was supposed to trigger the second part never occurred.

[Warmaker]

The other thing with the SFC games is that since you could use any ship type from Frigate to Battleship, you could see the varying scales of the ships. You don't notice it as much if you're a player that captains only Cruiser and larger warships, since everything's as big as you or a tad bit larger. But if you like to captain smaller ships (Frigates, Destroyers, etc) or switch around alot, it was great when it came to scale. Using something small like a B'Rel Bird of Prey, you'd appreciate the size and power of the larger warships like the Galaxy, D'Deridex, Sovies, or the immense Dominion Battleships. My B'Rel looks like a chihuaha next to a Galaxy or larger. But it made it that much sweeter when you grouped up with other small, cloaked warships to swarm over and take down a single, powerful warship. Just have to play it smart and avoid primary weapon arcs.

Klingon and Romulan warships favored powerful, frontal fires. Both utilized cloaking technology. But they differed greatly from there. The Klingon tendencies I notice favored speed, hitting hard, but generally the weakest shields of the 3 big races in ST. Romulans had slower warships, slower attacks, but had alot of firepower. A Romulan D'Deridex decloaking at your 6 o'clock was not a good thing

Federation warships had 360 arcs but the frontal arcs were deadliest due to the Torpedo tubes (especially those nasty Quantums). Too bad SFC games never implemented torpedo turrets, since I believe there were some designs utilizing them instead of the traditional, fixed tubes.

With the Dominion Wars mod on SFC3, I had alot of fun trying to outfit my ship to my style or experimenting for a better way of fighting. Yes, it was great to outfit a powerful warship like a Galaxy, Nebula, Sovereign, etc. It was easy too. But making the smaller warships effective and still putting up a fight against a player using a large warship was greatly satisfying.

[Fit For Natalie]

Really? Did you visit STGN/SGN by any chance? I was at STGN when they were making the original MP. Hell I was at the original Armada boards... I can't believe that was that long ago.

And don't worry, I know who P81 is. His work is fantastic.

So it sounds like I should install NanoFX, then DS9FX, and then the Bridge Plugin? I run into trouble when I try and pile the mods on and it ends up giving me the black screen.

Yeah, I was there all the time back in Armada's heyday. As I said, I was a 2D 'artist' on the MP1&2 with my friend TheFOrce, who was the real talent behind the partnership. These days I've only stayed in contact with P81 and another modding friend - everybody else dropped off the face of the Earth, it seems.

I suggest starting with a clean slate. Stock game > install patch. Then go to DS9FX and download all the stuff it needs and suggest (they will tell you to get NanoFX 2.0). Install all of that. Install the Bridge plugin and it's associated bridge sets. I don't believe the Defiant bridge is a plugin set, but it works without problems. I think the Excaliber set has problems, though.

I then suggest getting the TNG Ambassador pack by LC Amaral and CG's Soveriegn pack (whichever version is the newest). Very good models, though you may have to adjust the hardpoint files because they're overpowered compared to the stats of the DS9FX ships.

Bridge Commander looks really beautiful with NanoFX and minor texture changes added in (like new high res background stars and a new warp flash).