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[EXO]

in robotech continuity isn't Minmei Zor's mother or something through some form of time travel and he later goes on to invite protoculture or some poo?

314450[/snapback]

So whose the Father? Lunk? Probably someone with a purple mullet. He had to get the boy George hair from somewhere.

314452[/snapback]

If I remember right the father was another one of Zor's clone... so one of the clones + Minmay = Original...

[Hurin]

Regarding Lynn Kyle joining the army.

Yes, it seems lame, and I'm not an RT fan. But, in the real world, some of the most strident right-wing conservatives were once left-wing socialists and communists. So, it's not unheard of for people to completely switch teams.

Please note that I'm using no proper names and not putting any value judgments to any of those terms. So, this isn't political. Nor is it intended to start a political debate. I am merely pointing out that in over the last three or four decades this trend has been apparent in America and therefore there is historical precedent for a pacifist going over to the other side.

There are many reason why RT is lame. Lynn Kyle's joining the military seems like a pretty minor one in the grand scheme of things.

H

[Agent ONE]

Regarding Lynn Kyle joining the army.

Yes, it seems lame, and I'm not an RT fan.  But, in the real world, some of the most strident right-wing conservatives were once left-wing socialists and communists.  So, it's not unheard of for people to completely switch teams.

Please note that I'm using no proper names and not putting any value judgments to any of those terms.  So, this isn't political.  Nor is it intended to start a political debate.  I am merely pointing out that in over the last three or four decades this trend has been apparent in America and therefore there is historical precedent for a pacifist going over to the other side.

There are many reason why RT is lame.  Lynn Kyle's joining the military seems like a pretty minor one in the grand scheme of things. 

H

314454[/snapback]

Well I am just addin it to mah list!

[Agent ONE]

in robotech continuity isn't Minmei Zor's mother or something through some form of time travel and he later goes on to invite protoculture or some poo?

314450[/snapback]

So whose the Father? Lunk? Probably someone with a purple mullet. He had to get the boy George hair from somewhere.

314452[/snapback]

If I remember right the father was another one of Zor's clone... so one of the clones + Minmay = Original...

314453[/snapback]

Impossible, too strange to think about, and beyond dumb.

Another reason to think RT is stupid.

[jenius]

Why would anyone even include Lynn Kyle in the Sentinels? I thought his exit was great from Macross (TMS). Granted, stranger things have happened... I mean all the Zents were super pro-war and ended up being against it (kinda).... but why Kyle????

I hope they poo-can almost everything that happened in The Sentinels. It's my understanding they've already scraped all the End of the Circle stuff completely out of continuity so I think all that Zor being his own father's mother's cousin's friend's roomate in college is no longer a problem.

[EXO]

IIRC Minmei ended up with, like you said, another clone of Zor prime, named Rem and was pregnant with what would be Zor Prime.  And the series concluded with the SDF3 (which was Breetais flagship recoverted after the first war) ending up being the SDF1 which I guess made it back to Earth after some time loop. How the SDF1 could fight Breetais flagship ( called the Valivarre IIRC) in the first war without ripping a fabric in time since they are the same ship baffles me.

*puts on robotech expertise hat*

Zor prime was the first Zor clone... the offspring of Minmay and Rem would be the original Zor, he was killed during the escape of the SDF-1 from the Zentraedis.

[Roy Focker]

In a nut shell...

Rem banged Minmei! They had Zor.

Zor banged the Regis! Zor steal secrets of Protoculture and dies.

Cabel Zor's mentor makes a clone of Zor called Rem that he can bang.

Rick chooses to bang Lisa over Minmei.

Rem bangs Minmei again the Circle is Complete.

[bsu legato]

But didn't "End of the Circle" also conclude with Rem and Minmay trapped in some sort of new sub-universe that the Regis had created?

[Roy Focker]

But didn't "End of the Circle" also conclude with Rem and Minmay trapped in some sort of new sub-universe that the Regis had created?

314511[/snapback]

Your right.

In that case...

Rem bangs Minmei again the Circle is Complete and the Regis gets off watching them.

[1st Border Red Devil]

In a nut shell...

Rem banged Minmei!  They had Zor.

Only in the novels. The child to be Zor was also in an alternate reality set up by The Haydon.

Zor banged the Regis!  Zor steal secrets of Protoculture and does.

Novels only. The original Zor died at the hands of the rampaging Zentraedi some 500,000 yrs ago. The Regiss was not alive at the time, as she says it was the Invid's forefathers that were 'engulfed in the Shadow' (a term she uses to describe The Masters).

[Keith]

And there in lies the key to why the robotech universe sucks so much. It's all tied into inbreeding, with the quality going down in each re-generation, until the whole thing inmplodes on itself. This is also why Britai has a buckethead.

[Keith]

^

I think I can make out everyone in that thumbnail except the guy to the far left. Is that supposed to be Wolff?

314651[/snapback]

Yup.

[bsu legato]

The original Zor died at the hands of the rampaging Zentraedi some 500,000 yrs ago.

314558[/snapback]

Umm...wasn't it established way, wayyyy back at the dawn of Robotech that Zor died in an Invid raid just as he sent the SDF-1 to earth? This was in the Robotech Graphic Novel, IIRC, which predates anything from Jack McKinney, Eternity/Academ comics, and the oRRG.

Or is this another case of established "continuity" being rewritten to satisfy some other contradiction, or a fan writer's whim?

[Duke Togo]

And there in lies the key to why the robotech universe sucks so much. It's all tied into inbreeding, with the quality going down in each re-generation, until the whole thing inmplodes on itself. This is also why Britai has a buckethead.

314626[/snapback]

I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could link this all to OT Storm Troopers not being able to shoot straight.

[bsu legato]

I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could link this all to OT Storm Troopers not being able to shoot straight.

314717[/snapback]

So what you're really saying is that this is all Lucas' fault? Damn that childhood rapist! Damn him to hell!

And with that, the Internet Circle of Life is complete.

[Duke Togo]

I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could link this all to OT Storm Troopers not being able to shoot straight.

314717[/snapback]

So what you're really saying is that this is all Lucas' fault? Damn that childhood rapist! Damn him to hell!

And with that, the Internet Circle of Life is complete.

314721[/snapback]

No, actually, I think its the other way around.

[azrael]

*feels headache*

Okay, let me get this straight. Kyle becomes a hypocrite and joins the military. Minmei sleeps with Edwards. Minmei then sleeps with Wolfe. Then Edwards forces Wolfe back to Earth for sleeping with his woman. Minmei dumps him and gets banged by Rem/Zor clone #157102. She has his baby who grows up to be Zor Prime. They all get caught up in a time loop. Zor Prime then sends the SDF-3 back to Earth where it becomes the SDF-1.

You're not contending it was a Predestination Paradox?*

Oh. and Minmei is a WHORE.

*reference Star Trek Deep Space Nine, "Trials and Tribbleations", episode 503.

[Agent ONE]

*feels headache*

Okay, let me get this straight. Kyle becomes a hypocrite and joins the military. Minmei sleeps with Edwards. Minmei then sleeps with Wolfe. Then Edwards forces Wolfe back to Earth for sleeping with his woman. Minmei dumps him and gets banged by Rem/Zor clone #157102. She has his baby who grows up to be Zor Prime. They all get caught up in a time loop. Zor Prime then sends the SDF-3 back to Earth where it becomes the SDF-1.

You're not contending it was a Predestination Paradox?*

Oh. and Minmei is a WHORE.

*reference Star Trek Deep Space Nine, "Trials and Tribbleations", episode 503.

314746[/snapback]

OH!!!! So THATS who that is in the corner of this comic!!!

[Duke Togo]

I don't get the "Please bang anus please" part.

[Magnus]

I don't get the "Please bang anus please" part.

That's called characterization. You can *feel* the romantic tension there as he ponders the request!

[1st Border Red Devil]

Umm...wasn't it established way, wayyyy back at the dawn of Robotech that Zor died in an Invid raid just as he sent the SDF-1 to earth? This was in the Robotech Graphic Novel, IIRC, which predates anything from Jack McKinney, Eternity/Academ comics, and the oRRG. 

Or is this another case of established "continuity" being rewritten to satisfy some other contradiction, or a fan writer's whim?

314703[/snapback]

It was in The Graphic Novel, thats true. However, The Graphic Novel itself was full of a number of plot holes. That is one of the main reasons Macek sucks as a writer. Despite what people believe, he did NOT write Robotech.

The Tv series trumps everything as it came first. The Tv series establishes that the Robotech Republic collapsed some 500,000 yrs ago at the hands of the Zentraedi. Dolza says that the ancestors of the Zentraedi once had the secrets of Robotechnology, but lost them through a series of wars. Zor Prime says the original Zor died on a mission while seeding a planet with the spores of the Flower of Life (not seeds, spores. It mutates the local fauna to support itself). The Regiss tells Scott Bernard's group that it was the forefathers of the Invid that fled from the engulfing shadow of the Robotech Masters (That means she was not alive at the time and the Invid were different way back when). She also states that the Invid had to give up their homeplanet twice in their recorded history and travel elsewhere.

Taken all together we get the idea:

- Zor, bent on rapine and plunder, led some group that kicked the snot out of the Invid and took their planet from them.

- The ancestors of the Invid bug out for points unknown. Zor then develops the science of Robotechnology and the use of protoculture.

- The Robotech Republic forms, either replacing a pre-existing structure or forming along its own lines.

- Zor at some points develops the ancestors of the Zentraedi either as a slave labour or police force. He then macronizes them and arms them to the teeth as a cheap interstellar police force. They decide they want a larger slice of the pie and go about smashing the crap out of everything.

- Zor dies at the hands of his own creation and what becomes the SDF-1 is sent to Earth.

- Two rival factions survive the collapse the Robotech Republic: The Robotech Masters and The Disciples of Zor. The Masters gain control of some or all of the Zentraedi at some later date and begin attacking the DoZ.

- The Invid become a target again at some point and have to flee once more for parts unknown.

- Somebody gets the bright idea to search for Zor's lost battlefortress and solve the looming logistical crisis due to the long drawn out war with the DoZ.

All that I have written is either stated or can be inferred from dialogue and screen captures in The Robotech Masters, Khyron's Revenge, The Invid Connection, Catastrophe, Midnight Sun, Dark Finale and Symphony of Light.

[Roy Focker]

Don't forget about Zor other acomplishment of sending Robotech mecha to EXO-Squad territory.

[bsu legato]

So 1BRD, if I understand you correctly, Zor sending the SDF-1 to earth and his subsequent death predate the fall of the Robotech Republic? Would that not mean that the SDF-1 spent the intervening 500,000 years in space fold before arriving at Earth?

[yellowlightman]

- Zor dies at the hands of his own creation and what becomes the SDF-1 is sent to Earth.

- Two rival factions survive the collapse the Robotech Republic: The Robotech Masters and The Disciples of Zor. The Masters gain control of some or all of the Zentraedi at some later date and begin attacking the DoZ.

- The Invid become a target again at some point and have to flee once more for parts unknown.

- Somebody gets the bright idea to search for Zor's lost battlefortress and solve the looming logistical crisis due to the long drawn out war with the DoZ.

314862[/snapback]

So were the Robotech Masters who attacked earth the entire group fo Robotech Masters fighting the DoZ, or were they just a small part?

[Hurin]

I wish there were a version that just ended everything poetically and bitter-sweetly. I think the perfect ending to Robotech would have been at the end of To The Stars where Rick and Lisa were standing in front of the damaged SDF-1 as Minmay wandered off into the unknown. Oh wait. . .

[yellowlightman]

I wish there were a version that just ended everything poetically and bitter-sweetly.  I think the perfect ending to Robotech would have been at the end of To The Stars where Rick and Lisa were standing in front of the damaged SDF-1 as Minmay wandered off into the unknown.  Oh wait. . .

314955[/snapback]

Yeah, too bad they went back and added in all that crap with DYRL, Flashback 2012, Macross Plus and Macross 7, right?

[Hurin]

I wish there were a version that just ended everything poetically and bitter-sweetly.  I think the perfect ending to Robotech would have been at the end of To The Stars where Rick and Lisa were standing in front of the damaged SDF-1 as Minmay wandered off into the unknown.  Oh wait. . .

314955[/snapback]

Yeah, too bad they went back and added in all that crap with DYRL, Flashback 2012, Macross Plus and Macross 7, right?

314958[/snapback]

Seriously though. The big alure of getting to know Macross for me was that I could actually forget about all that Robotech Masters and New Generation stuff that always seemed so strange to me.

The ending to Macross just seems so much more right and poignant when you don't have Dana Sterling popping up in the next half hour to essentially say: "Wait! There's more! It won't be half as good as what you just saw and will diminish the poignancy and sense of closure you just got. . . but there's at least two more "Robotech Wars" to go! And. . . we're off!"

[1st Border Red Devil]

So 1BRD, if I understand you correctly, Zor sending the SDF-1 to earth and his subsequent death predate the fall of the Robotech Republic?

Basically, yes. His death precipitates the demise of the Republic. If not the main cause, it was certainly a major factor.

Would that not mean that the SDF-1 spent the intervening 500,000 years in space fold before arriving at Earth?

314900[/snapback]

Or it jumped to some place between the stars and waited until pursuit caught up with it just in time to jump again. No reason to believe the boobytrap left aboard was a one-shot deal.

So were the Robotech Masters who attacked earth the entire group fo Robotech Masters fighting the DoZ, or were they just a small part?

No reason to believe the Masters we see in Robotech are the whole kit-and-kaboodle. We know there is at least one other fleet under the control of The Elders somewhere out there. My guess is that the war with the DoZ sucked every last resource the Masters had access to, making trying to find the SDF-1 both stupid and bold. For one thing, the Masters did NOT know the SDF-1 had landed on Earth and only confirmed they found the Protoculture Factory in Half Moon. They were not sure what had caused Dolza's Grand Fleet to go up in smoke, debating either the DoZ opened up a new offensive or somehow the Invid got ahold of the protoculture matrix.

A reasonable extrapolation of the situation in 2011 would include the outlying sections of the Robotech Empire crumbling and declaring independence, ala Asimov's Foundation Universe. There could be hundreds of Warlords carving out their own fiefs and scrambling to grab every last ounce of protoculture at their disposal. The Pioneer Expedition probably blundered into more than one group like this because the Colonel Wolfe flashback in Eulogy claims Wolfe 'destroyed many of the enemies encountered by Admiral Hunter's Expeditionary Force'.

[yellowlightman]

The ending to Macross just seems so much more right and poignant when you don't have Dana Sterling popping up in the next half hour to essentially say:  "Wait!  There's more!  It won't be half as good as what you just saw and will  diminish the poignancy and sense of closure you just got. . . but there's at least two more "Robotech Wars" to go!  And. . . we're off!" 

314964[/snapback]

Kind of airrelevant point to argue, given that tehre wasn't much choice when putting Robotech into production. In order to meet the requirements of the syndication system, it had to be at least 60-odd episodes long, so..!

[Hurin]

Kind of airrelevant point to argue, given that tehre wasn't much choice when putting Robotech into production. In order to meet the requirements of the syndication system, it had to be at least 60-odd episodes long, so..!

314969[/snapback]

Who's arguing? I was merely pointing out that I think Macross is a much more satisfying story without having two totally incongruous, unrelated, and superflous stories artificially tacked directly onto it.

I do see where you could see that as irrelevant especially since I may never have even known about Macross had I not seen Robotech (and those unfortunate changes were necessary for RT to exist). And I can definitely see where people here on MW will say: "Well, duh, if we didn' all already think that, we'd all be RT fans." I merely made a comment with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. . . and you essentially tried to equate the tacking on of two totally unrelated series onto Macross as being essentially the same as Macross's original creators developing spin-offs and sequels. So, here we are.

But I admit that I am stating the obvious. And I regret that we're now on the verge of touching off another anti-RT thread. I was just making a dumb little comment. I didn't anticipate anyone responding, much less taking issue with it on the merits.

[Keith]

Kind of airrelevant point to argue, given that tehre wasn't much choice when putting Robotech into production. In order to meet the requirements of the syndication system, it had to be at least 60-odd episodes long, so..!

314969[/snapback]

Nope, they could have just as easily done an anthology series under the main robotech name, or gone for saturday morning syndication instead of weekday syndication. Or gone for network pickup instead of syndication. There were may avenue's open to them, they just chose the most plagiaristic method.

[EXO]

Kind of airrelevant point to argue, given that tehre wasn't much choice when putting Robotech into production. In order to meet the requirements of the syndication system, it had to be at least 60-odd episodes long, so..!

314969[/snapback]

Nope, they could have just as easily done an anthology series under the main robotech name, or gone for saturday morning syndication instead of weekday syndication. Or gone for network pickup instead of syndication. There were may avenue's open to them, they just chose the most plagiaristic method.

315079[/snapback]

Syndication or network, it doesn't really matter. They were going to get butchered. Anything that got aired in the 70's and 80's were altered because stations were afraid to show raw anime or japanimation as they were called before. Voltron, Gachaman, Tranzor/Mazinger Z. The only way they could have escaped being changed (heavily) was if it went direct to video just like Bubblegum Crisis, Megazone 2 and Madox.

But let's face it, even American properties were changed for the sake of getting things on the air. He-Man was a bit grittier in those little comics than came with the toys. There was no Prince Adam or Orko or Kringer. G.I. joe was kiddified. Quit thinking that Macross was singled out. Macek wasn't THE devil... he was just a demon among minions.

[grss1982]

I don't get the "Please bang anus please" part.

That's called characterization. You can *feel* the romantic tension there as he ponders the request!

314814[/snapback]

[Keith]

Syndication or network, it doesn't really matter.  They were going to get butchered.  Anything that got aired in the 70's and 80's were altered because stations were afraid to show raw anime or japanimation as they were called before.  Voltron, Gachaman, Tranzor/Mazinger Z.  The only way they could have escaped being changed (heavily) was if it went direct to video just like Bubblegum Crisis, Megazone 2 and Madox.

But let's face it, even American properties were changed for the sake of getting things on the air.  He-Man was a bit grittier in those little comics than came with the toys.  There was no Prince Adam or Orko or Kringer.  G.I. joe was kiddified.  Quit thinking that Macross was singled out.  Macek wasn't THE devil... he was just a demon among minions.

315086[/snapback]

Of course it doesn't matter, it got butchered anyway. Are you honestly going to argue that it got less butchered somehow the way they did it? They were held to the same standards & practices regarldess. The difference is, we could have gotten something closer to what was done with Yamato's trim into starblazers, as oposed to Macross's being meshed in with two completely unrelated shows. And don't forget, by the time of these releases, there was no direct to video market yet. Macek was the devil, he took someone elses show, and pretended to create something of his own.

[yellowlightman]

Of course it doesn't matter, it got butchered anyway. Are you honestly going to argue that it got less butchered somehow the way they did it? They were held to the same standards & practices regarldess. The difference is, we could have gotten something closer to what was done with Yamato's trim into starblazers, as oposed to Macross's being meshed in with two completely unrelated shows. And don't forget, by the time of these releases, there was no direct to video market yet. Macek was the devil, he took someone elses show, and pretended to create something of his own.

315092[/snapback]

Keith, get the hell over it. It was 20 years ago.