Valkyire fighting space monster!

[Beware of Blast]

Is there any other show out there that just fires people up as much as this one does?

Not as far as Macross is concerned. Ya know, when I worked in Ad agencies, the ultimate goal is to make commercials that people remember. And it doesn't matter if the ad you made receives good or bad reviews, the point is, if people talk about it, then you've created successful ads - because people remember.

I used to disagree with this working philosophy cuz the moment there is bad buzz, the chances of a good sale is as good as gone. But if that same philosophy had been applied onto Macross 7, then, I'm glad it bothered dudes like Agent One enough to talk about it. Because Macross 7, had sorta become that constant scorch beneath his loincloth. He just can't stop scratching because the little crabmen refuse to relent and they come back everytime just like Basara can't stop singing.

Oh, and Macross 7 IS successful because it's still talked about today.

[Wicked Ace]

I'm glad it bothered dudes like Agent One enough to talk about it. Because Macross 7, had sorta become that constant scorch beneath his loincloth. He just can't stop scratching because the little crabmen refuse to relent and they come back everytime just like Basara can't stop singing.

Oh, and Macross 7 IS successful because it's still talked about today.

So, watching M7 is like having crabs? LOL!

[azrael]

Is there any other show out there that just fires people up as much as this one does?

Yeah. It starts with an "R" and is produced by some company with the initials "H" and "G".

[Beware of Blast]

So, watching M7 is like having crabs?  LOL!

That depends, I had sumptuous Thai chilli crabs with fluffy white Jasmine rice. Not sure about you though.

Edited May 1, 2004 by Beware of Blast

[RichterX]

I liked this from M7

[Keith]

Let me start out by stating that I'm sure that you were responding to Agent ONE, and I don't want to do a lynch mob style debate. That being said, your character development assertion simply isn't supportable. Also, the excuse about the "mecha battles" being a result of a TV budget is just that, an excuse for poor fight scenes.

Considering that we do get to know all the main characters with a good amount of depth & backstory, and even many of the secondary characters have decent screen time & introduction, I just don't see where the whole schtick is coming from. Lack of character development means that characters are being used as wallpaper & are never really delt with. 7 has an almost exclusive assortment of episodes focusing either on specific character conflicts or main plot elements, very little filler.

As opposed to say a show like Pokemon or Yu Gi Oh, where all episodes center around collecting, trading, battling, etc. As for the battles, while there were no epic OVA styled dogfights, there were some great battles. Death Match at Planet Lux, The fight where Physica died, Gigil's last fight, the assault on Varuta to name a few. Would you consider many of the battles in the original Macross to be epic? Hikaru flies loses an arm/gets shot down, etc? Not every episode of every show is going to be a show stopper, especially when the show's main focus isn't fighting in the first place.

Let me clarify my second point; my argument on the fight scenes is the fact that the battles seem like those of the old G.I. Joe series, where tons of weapons are being used, yet nobody seems to get killed. For example, the VF-11s come apart so neatly for the Varuta pilots. Also, the Varuta pilots seem to operate with such precision in getting the VF-11 pilots, yet they can't seem to hit Basara with any weapons fire, when he's not even paying attention to flight controls. In fact, Basara doesn't even execute complex manuevers and fires speakers, with precision, into the Varuta pilots to force them into listening to his obnoxious, singing.

Basara wasn't flying a VF-11, & had a pinpoint barrier. He does get hit on occasion, just nothing detrimental. Standard hero character action. Hero characters live through just about anything, cannon fodder characters blow up when you sneeze at them, that's just the way it is. As for the getting killed, why kill targets when your objective is to steal spiritia from them? Later on in the series (around the time Sivil appears) you start to see more VF-11 pilots not surviving.

HAHAHA...

You didn't respond to anything I said... Just typical Keith crying.

Why don't you just go watch that old WWF cartoon & quit wasting everyones time?

[Wicked Ace]

Lack of character development means that characters are being used as wallpaper & are never really delt with. 7 has an almost exclusive assortment of episodes focusing either on specific character conflicts or main plot elements, very little filler.

Would you consider many of the battles in the original Macross to be epic? Hikaru flies loses an arm/gets shot down, etc? Not every episode of every show is going to be a show stopper, especially when the show's main focus isn't fighting in the first place.

Basara wasn't flying a VF-11, & had a pinpoint barrier. As for the getting killed, why kill targets when your objective is to steal spiritia from them? Later on in the series (around the time Sivil appears) you start to see more VF-11 pilots not surviving.

My point on the character development (how'd I get stuck in such a boring point?) is that most of the character development in M7 seems on the order of filler. The conflicts are lackluster as well as a lot of the personalities.

As far as battles go, I never made the argument that the battles in M7 should be "epic." My point is that they border on total absurdity. Now, I hestitate to use the word "realistic" when in comes to animated battles, however there just isn't a real feel to the fights (mainly because the "show's main focus isn't fighting"). If you're going to have a fight scene, put some thought into it, or don't bother when you're being held to a standard - that's all.

Let see, I know the difference between a VF-11 and a VF-19. Pinpoint barrier or no, Basara does jack squat while the precision "spiritia" beam-operating Varuta pilots can't seem to hit the side of a barn in the same sequences. And, having the VF-11 break apart in just the right manner for the Varuta pilots to zap the VF-11 pilot's energy is a little to convenient (especially when the same footage is constantly reused).

On the whole, M7 just fails to live up to the original SDF Macross series, no matter how you cut it. This being said, you can leave this statement at that if you don't want to continue a discussion with me; I mean, I know you and Agent ONE have some real bickering to do!

[UN Spacy]

I liked this from M7

Whoa. THIS is probably the only reason I wanna see all of Macross 7 (I've only seen the first episode + The Galaxy Is Calling Me). I wanna see the tie in's between SDF:M and this series.

BTW....are there any direct acknowledgements to Macross Plus (in M7)?

[RichterX]

THere is no mention of the events on Macross Plus in Macross 7, I would guess the UN Spacy would had censored or wrote there own version of Sharon Apple incident...

Just remembered:

I think some Sharon Apple's songs are used in some scenes in the background...

Edited May 2, 2004 by RichterX

[Wicked Ace]

I wanna see the tie in's between SDF:M and this series.

That's was my motivation for watching M7. I was curious about the whole Max/Millia story. The rest of it bites.

[Myriad]

Macross 7 not my cup of tea....

Edited May 2, 2004 by Myriad

[Radd]

Lack of character development means that characters are being used as wallpaper & are never really delt with. 7 has an almost exclusive assortment of episodes focusing either on specific character conflicts or main plot elements, very little filler.

Would you consider many of the battles in the original Macross to be epic? Hikaru flies loses an arm/gets shot down, etc? Not every episode of every show is going to be a show stopper, especially when the show's main focus isn't fighting in the first place.

Basara wasn't flying a VF-11, & had a pinpoint barrier. As for the getting killed, why kill targets when your objective is to steal spiritia from them? Later on in the series (around the time Sivil appears) you start to see more VF-11 pilots not surviving.

My point on the character development (how'd I get stuck in such a boring point?) is that most of the character development in M7 seems on the order of filler. The conflicts are lackluster as well as a lot of the personalities.

As far as battles go, I never made the argument that the battles in M7 should be "epic." My point is that they border on total absurdity. Now, I hestitate to use the word "realistic" when in comes to animated battles, however there just isn't a real feel to the fights (mainly because the "show's main focus isn't fighting"). If you're going to have a fight scene, put some thought into it, or don't bother when you're being held to a standard - that's all.

Let see, I know the difference between a VF-11 and a VF-19. Pinpoint barrier or no, Basara does jack squat while the precision "spiritia" beam-operating Varuta pilots can't seem to hit the side of a barn in the same sequences. And, having the VF-11 break apart in just the right manner for the Varuta pilots to zap the VF-11 pilot's energy is a little to convenient (especially when the same footage is constantly reused).

On the whole, M7 just fails to live up to the original SDF Macross series, no matter how you cut it. This being said, you can leave this statement at that if you don't want to continue a discussion with me; I mean, I know you and Agent ONE have some real bickering to do!

Ok, while I will mercilessly mock those that continue to try and force their completely subjective opinions everyone else, insisting that those who disagree are wrong, I still manage to feel compelled to address those arguments with subjects that could possibly be addressed in an objective manner.

Personally, I would tend to agree with those that feel the battles in Macross 7 were often more cartoonish, repetative, and generally lackluster than those found in any other Macross series, OVA, or movie. I think anyone else would be hard pressed to disagree. There's far more recycled footage, and what footage there is is not as well animated as even many of the battles in SDF Macross.

However, I also believe this to be intentional. As the action is not only not a big part of the story for much of the series, it is downplayed considerably in face of the pacifist theme that dominates the story.

Still, it is a valid complaint for anyone coming in looking for the fast paced, well thought out mecha action that every other Macross show has been known for.

On the up side, the animation remained more consistent, often much better than the majority of SDF Macross and many other shows. Heck, the animation was often better than Evangelion, where the entire budget went to some short, though very well done, action sequences, while the majority of the show was made up of well drawn still frames.

Still, you want action the likes of wich you found in SDF, DYRL?, and Plus? Well, don't look here. I like M7, but I won't deny this.

As for character development? That's a bit more complex, and it's harder to draw the lines between fact and opinion, subjective and objective. To me it seems that there's far more actual developement of the characters in Macross 7 than there was in Plus. Plus had it's share of developement, and it was pretty good for a short OVA (excellent, I'd say), but I just feel that the characters just grew and changed more in 7, and in a more realistic fashion. Yes, yes. Giggle all you like when I apply the word 'realism' to M7, but as far as the characters themselves, their developement given the world they're in, I think it's pretty fitting. Every argument I see from those that love the show and those that despise it equally confirm this belief of mine, because you see the exact same situations from the characters in the show.

You see, and this is my viewpoint so I won't try to pursuade you further if you disagree so long as you don't try and show me how "wrong" I am, in Macross Plus we only see a small amount of the characters in very specific circumstances. They (mainly Myung and Guld) have set demons. We see them address these conflicts and resolve them, all with a little help from other characters who we see a lot less developement out of. Isamu's developement is minimal, but well done. He doesn't really change at all, but our opinion of him changes as we see his situation more clearly at the end of the show.

The developement in 7 appears (to me, at least) to be much more extreme, Gamlin being my favourite character and example. He doesn't just face some buried demon of his past, but his entire personality and world outlook is altered by the situations he experiences and the people he meets. As with many of the characters, his change is very slow, gradual, but definitely there. Paced in a rather realistic fashion. People don't often change overnight, it takes time. Gamlin's change (as well as Gavil's, and many other of the show's Basara nay-sayers) accurately reflects many a person who first looked at M7 and dismissed that fruit in the brightly colours valkyrie and his silly ideals, then slowly, very slowly, grew to understand his ideals. While others in the show never really come to terms with his ideals. Reminds me a lot of this forum.

There is filler, sure, I don't think the majority of it is filler, though. I really think the show would be even less believable, and lose credibility with those that do currently like it if people just suddenly threw themselves at Basara to begin with. Some people simply do not agree with the ideals he represents, and who am I to say they should?

As for stating that M7 fails to live up to SDF? Well, that's your opinion. You're welcome to it. I have mixed feelings. I think it definitely does not live up to the action presented in SDF, and it's hit and miss on the presentation between the two of them. I rather prefere the presenation of DYRL?, but I feel the overall character development shown in M7 has the SDF version of the Hikaru/Minmay/Misa love triangle beat.

In the end, while I would like to say that I prefere SDF, I still find myself watching and enjoying M7 even more. There's parts I love about it, there's parts I really hate about it. I'd like to see it get the DYRL? treatment, but I'm content with Dynamite 7.

[Wicked Ace]

Radd, that's about the best thought out response I've seen in the "we did this last month" M7 debate.

[Red Comet]

There are big boobs females in the series...

There are scenes of bouncing boobs in the series....

There are hints of lesbianism and nude scenes in the OVA...

Can this be a show for kids????

Anyhoo..

Macorss 7 rocks...because it is very different from all the other mecha shows with all the macho gungho crap....

[Agent ONE]

...

HAHAHA...

You didn't respond to anything I said... Just typical Keith crying.

Why don't you just go watch that old WWF cartoon & quit wasting everyones time?

First of all, I don't waste ANYONE'S time... I protect the image of Macross fans around the world from those who would mar its image by embracing that girly-man M7. Any new Macross fan could happen upon M7 and think it was a show for the worthless and weak promoting the worst in small children (its target audience). Then... as these new fans are in the depths of dispair, a shaft of devine light is seen in the distance... For they bear witness to the power and glory of Agent ONE. The Shepard, who is the only one who can protect them from sissyness... Their faith is resotred.

For this Macross fans love me, you should love me, love me like I love myself.

I ME

Second of all, the WWF had a cartoon!? I always men rolling around with other men was your deal man.

Third, M7 actually had decent character development, Millia was crazy as ever, but that was consistent with SDF-M, they made Max LOOK like a dipshit douche-bag, but his character was good. As for the others, they were developed well. I think they all smoke pole, but they were fully developed as pole smokers.

[Red Comet]

...that girly-man M7.....

Hey, watch it...Macross 7 isn't girly-man...

It's take great courage and genius to defeat the enemies without the use of violence....as the great Sun Tzu says...

[Final Vegeta]

I do agree with Agent ONE the show seems rather kiddish. This may be confirmed in the show, among other signs, by little children occasionally meeting with main characters, like Mylene's fan and Pedro in the movie.

It must be also said that there is some sexual inference (although with no nudity, aside from the endings) which may not look mature but definitively it's not kiddish. Also OVA Dynamite has some disturbing scenes, so this is a proof not all Macross 7's fans were supposed to be kids.

(This reminds me a guy talking about Panda Z: "Is it for children? The why the references? Is it for adults? Then why is it for children?". Supposedly, some animes are done that way)

Some things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous though, like the co-marketing (now that I think better of it, ALL things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous).

The lack of violence is not really sign of kiddieness, just that at the time in Japan little violence was allowed to be aired. What 1994's violent TV series are you talking about, Agent ONE? Gundam Wing? I make a counter-example with Noir: lots of people got shot but they don't bleed. Even manga stories are always toned down in anime.

Overtones of peace, as opposed to realities of confilct and conflict resolution

That was supposed to have some meaning behind, besides overtones of peace were everywhere in SDF Macross, you are blind if you didn't see them.

One main character rebels against parent-like authority and is glorified by it, this is an overtone used for many shows for 8-12 year olds

In Japan fathers are a distant figure, they work all day so they don't have time to know their sons. Entire Japanese generations have always complained about weak parental guidance. At the end fathers are not well liked, and most characters in anime are orphan. Notice: both Hikaru and Myung's fathers were dead. We don't have seen the father of any Macross lead character so far. Kawamori clearly has troubles with his parents, too, but quoting an Italian comedian's line: "when an actor doesn't have any gifts he puts on stage his own misfortunes", so Kawamori is more gifted than, say, Hideaki Anno.

But assuming you were obviously talking about Basara, he doesn't rebel against parent-like authority, but against military. There is a big difference in this if you knew Japan's military history.

Other main character is a 15 year old girl who copes with growing up

Most of anime characters (especially in TV series) are 15 (even Hikaru was 15 in the series), and in that age they cope with growing up. This is a sponsor-side restraint. Tomino wanted an Amuro with wife and sons in Char's Counterattack, but sponsors refuse it because the character would have looked too old (Max was luckier).

Product oriented show

Supposed to sell a lot of toys but it ended up selling only a lots of CDs. That's the price of a mecha show which does refuse to sell mechas. Indeed, if you aimed to buy mechas and the seller shows you some CDs while he goes in the back of the shop to pick up the mecha you wanted, that's an unbearable unsubtle commercial.

Conclusion: Macross 7 was simply meant to be accessible to some extent to pre-teens, more than other series maybe (ie: harem animes), but in that the original TV series was no different.

As for its success, there is one big thing all people seem to forget: "karaoke" is a Japanese word. Persians ate their dead parents, Gallics cut heads and Japaneses like singing. Maybe if someone made a show about a man who could defeat space monsters with his yodels that show would be successful among Austrians, wouldn't? Kawamori managed to catch the spirit of jrock, so some jrock fans not interested in anime may have seen the show, and no, they were not pre-teens.

Agent ONE, you may work in Marketing, but you are not that good at it if you forget each country has its own culture. I'll quote an example I've heard. There was a marketing company who was trying to sell French cheese. For a French the cheese is alive; if you were to make a commercial of it in France, there would be women touching and sniffing an unwrapped cheese. Those kind of things has not worked in US. The company found out that for US cheese must be sterile, free from germs; they placed emphasis on the tearproofness and airtightness of the wrapping and the product sold.

Then there is the other big discussion: the comparison between Macross 7 and Macross Plus.

First of all, there is some misconceptions about what a mecha fan aimed show is.

I perceive a mecha fan aimed show as a show with no-nonsense hyper-detailed powerful mechas, a serious story possibly with little to no moral and meaning (ie "the physically strongest wins": that is not a moral) and lots of deaths and mechas destroyed.

I perceive a character fan aimed show as a show with little tragedy, since not many main characters die. Sometimes I was given the impression characters in such shows weren't meant to change much, because the love for the character comes for the character as it is, not for the individual it rapresents, but I am still thinking about this (well, character driven stories are usually shoujo, and I am not fond of that).

(This reminds of a witticism: "Men marry women hoping they won't change, and they will. Women marry men hoping they will change, and they won't". Female characters seem to have the biggest change of attitude in animes, while male characters are more firm on their dream. Maybe reality works that way...)

Both sides have their flaws, luckily mecha fans and character fans are not all type of audience (and they are not exclusive each other, either).

As for Macross Plus, it was indeed aimed to mecha fans, but also to general audience, and that made the big difference. Macross 7 instead was aimed also to anime otakus. This is why it could be called an acquired taste. You'd better have watched several silly shows as a kid before seeing Macross 7. There are a lot of references to sentai and SR.

Airing violence in TV in Japan is a troublesome matter, especially right before Evangelion. An OVA has more degree of freedom, but a TV series have several restraints. This is why lots of shows have kinds of transfered violence, like assorbing life energy instead of actual death, or using blue blood instead of red blood. You can't blame a show for this, even if at the end in the case of Macross 7 this tends to make a show kiddish.

On the other hand, bashing a show because it was mecha driven it as lame as bashing it saying it must have been unsuccessful.

As for Macross Plus, I can assure you it indeed had a meaning; I am very sorry Macross 7 gets this treatment, but I can't slip this other thing either. Kawamori have always placed meaning in everything.

Look at the original series for istance: Zentradies were a rapresentation of militaries taking control during WWII and inciting Japanese people to fight American invasors at all costs. That's why Zentradies were so shocked when they heard talking about civilians, a people without civilians is what Japan risked to become. Zentradies are a symbolic deformation of hystorical events. I can't find it in the Compendium anymore, but I read Bodolza's fortress in the series had the same height of Japan; its destruction by nuclear weapons was again symbolic, and that was the only reason in Macross there are nukes. Macross rapresents an acknowlegement of the guilts of Confucian doctrines and the rising of a new generation (a pop generation) trying to avoid the mistakes of the old one. Sometimes Macross is kinda preachy about these things, like when a commander forbade heroisms (and you are talking about the nation of kamikaze). The singer stopping giant aliens may seems silly if you don't know the real meaning behind it.

Oh well, sometimes I think Zentradies were also a parody of mecha fans who are turned off by some simple song. Ore no uta wo kike!

Now, Macross Plus had its meaning while not being related to WWII anymore, but that's another matter I'll let you find out for yourself (I am not taking out all the fun).

As for chara development, my belief is each series or movie usually has roughly the same character development, no matter what the length is (obviously, in a longer series rhythm will be thinned). This is done on the purpose of instilling meaning in a series, a story simply must be done that way; someone may speed up rhythm to surprise audience, but it's really rare. I don't call going deep into a character developing him, it's still nice but there is a subtle difference. Anyway, the character who had a real growth in Macross Plus was Myung, not Isamu. The movie is the authentical version, and it is more Macross than the OVAs. Myung's attitude changed, Isamu's didn't.

As for Macross 7, it can't be blamed for its concept of singer in a clown mecha. It may indeed have flaws of execution, but discussing about individual tastes is boring and doesn't lead to anything, and that's why this debate is still going on, because people talk only about tastes. Facts exhaust a subject quickly.

I understand posting a link to a previous discussion in order to help a newbie out, but I don't get why some people can't resist posting up a disparaging "we did this last month" type comment.

Tastes are easy to repeat over and over, worthwhile discussions (sometimes there are some ) instead must be copy&pasted, and that's harder. Wicked Ace, that path leads to chaos, and chaos means work, and work is hard. Steer.

Talking about Macross 7's flaws, I do believe Kawamori's supervision of Macross 7 was kinda loose (less than, say, Escaflowne. Other than that, Macross 7 was the only Macross show not directly directed by Kawamori, mind this), hence most of Macross 7's flaws in execution. Macross 7 however had plenty of Kawamori's spirit, but perhaps I've already talked about it.

I could even list most of Kawamori's staples, and you could see Macross 7 has many of them (not all, but still enough), so in its way is still Macross.

At the time Macross plus was the most expensive OAV to date, and it had no expenese spared in animating the valks including some of the first effectively integrated Computer animation (unlike the Return Of Char, where it was very gimmicky)

You are talking about Char's Counterattack? Well, that was because it was animated by Hideaki Anno of Evangelion's fame I've seen Nausicaa and I've immediately recognized his cheap style. This guy surely is consistent

Final note: at least you must admit authors were keen enough not to insert in the show spiritia swords or the like.

FV

[CAG]

M7-

Just thought I'd get that out of the way.

Druna Skass Posted: May 1 2004, 11:47 AM 

Is there any other show out there that just fires people up as much as this one does?

Yup. Star Trek:Enterprise tends to get people very fired up too. (ENT-, by the way.)

Noyhauser Posted: Apr 30 2004, 01:42 PM 

Maybe you should read more about the series themselves. A 2 hours OAV series cannot have anywhere close to the character development that a 24 hour long series does. Thats why they both came out at the same time. Macross Plus does have a plot and some character development, but it was primarily inteneded to be a showcase VFs and be an action movie. That cannot be disputed. The Mechas in Plus were right up front. IT STARTS OFF AS A COMPETITION BETWEEN TWO NEW FIGHTERS. How can it be secondary when Guld and Isamu engage in battle for approxomately 40% of the whole series?

Maybe because character development takes up the other 60%, thus making mecha secondary.

[Lightning]

what usually happens in an M7 thread......

AGENT ONE (usually) is the first one to bash it because of it's Fruityness and "strict-adherence" to non-violence.

-now- on that latter part, if it was strict adherence to non-violence like the show tried to do, then why did all the CF VF-11 pilots have to die? why did Physica have to die? on that note, why did Basara not get his ass waxed after the first episode?? (I mean, come on, Gamlin had the best shot of any character in that first episode! ohh! wait! a better death idea! he coulda went to battroid mode, ripped off the -19's head, and poked a huge hole in the cockpit hatch!!)

and for what usually happens next:

KEITH is usually the first one to try to defend the above said Fruity show. He tries to come up with statistics to show that M7 was somehow better than M+........ummmmkayyy.....then he tries to show that Basara is in fact, not fruity and shouldnt be killed after the first episode!

my take: M7=: I like the show for the mecha designs, the Armored VF-11 was great to see, the Fire Valk was a different concept altogether, as was/were the Sound Force valks. But as for the Characters, if they made Mylene about 16-17 or so, all the inbed stuff for the more mature and older viewers woulda made sense better. It was kool to see Max and Millia again, though it woulda been nice if they werent "at each other's throats" (so to speak). Basara is once again, Fruity, but u cant deny the fact that he does have style.

anyways, once again my take on Macross 7 is: M7=

EDIT: punctuation.

Edited May 2, 2004 by Lightning 06

[the white drew carey]

We don't have seen the father of any Macross lead character so far.

Yes, we have: Misa's father (if she isn't a lead character, I don't know who is) and Mylene's father, Max.

Edited May 2, 2004 by the white drew carey

[Druna Skass]

ohh! wait! a better death idea! he coulda went to battroid mode, ripped off the -19's head, and poked a huge hole in the cockpit hatch!!)

I would have done that if I was an Armored VF-11 pilot just for irritating the crap out of me, all the while listening to something orchestrated.

Just too bad there aren't any heat swords like that one Norris carried in 08th MS team so I could shove it into Basara's cockpit, the way Norris shanked those GM Guntanks.

[RichterX]

We need a girl here that sings Ai o oboete imasu ka to bring peace between people that likes Macross 7 and those who hate it...

[macplus]

I keep thinking that instead of doing that POS of a series that Macross 7 is, they should have done something on the tone of Zeta gundam, a series that has "magic" (newtype powers) and doesn't look stupid and in fact it makes the pace of the series more atractive, most of the story included in M7 could have been done to look as good as the original series or M+ are, but they went the cheesy and crappy way and that's why it's so hard to swallow for most people, in some cases I really wonder what the makers were thinking as most of the series is full of filler and doesn't even deliver anything, just a selfish loser that want's everybody to hear his songs and doesn't care that half city is left in ruins while running away from the enemy and singing (for example check ep 14), everything was made to look anoying on purpose IMHO. Everybody can say whatever they want about the series but like it or not its full of crap and for sure it's not on par with the original series, Macross 7 should have been done like a separate story, not related to macross. Again I put as an example zeta gundam, something with that tone would have been a true follower, but instead we're stuck with the stupid mechas and crappy characters and to put it even worse it's cannon and whatever comes after the M7 era will have maybe some of the crappy desings or stupid singing technology... If only they made M7 as a soap opera inside the Macross universe like DYRL that it's a movie inside MW..

Later folks

[Agent ONE]

...

Some things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous though, like the co-marketing (now that I think better of it, ALL things Agent ONE listed are ridiculous).

...

I don't really like other anime so mentioning all that stuff is wasted on me. Only anime I have ever really liked was either Macross or Golgo13.. I have however worked on the marketing of various anime products, therefore am an expert.

As for the things I mentioned as to why M7 is targeted at kids, I am a marketing professional I majored in Marketing, got a masters degree in marketing, and have marketed many products for all age groups including children, and more importantly I am consistantly successfull in my marketing efforts. It is not your place to judge what I said, it is out of your element, and beyond your understanding.

The funniest thing about ALL who argue with me: Your arguments are just emotional and angry, there is no real substance there. Keith makes up statistics with double negitives and other falacies of logic but his stupidity is obvious to even the casual thread participant.

[Gideon Krieg]

I would like to thank both sides of the argument on this thread for some of the most entertaining reading on an internet forum I have ever read. You guys had me laughing to the point of tears.

I do have my own 2 cents to add.

First, Macross 7 may or may not have been intended for just children. Personally I feel it was intended for all ages. Thus there is a little bit of childishness and some adult themes that children would not understand. From a marketing point of view, it is obvious that M7 is targeting the 8-12 market. This makes perfect business sense and does not detract from the Product at all.

I do have some reservations about the whole, "SOUND FORCE" attacks in space. SOUND DOES NOT TRAVEL IN SPACE!!!! However, it is a science fiction show so I think it should be cut some slack. After all if we look at Star Trek or Star Wars we find numerous violations of the laws of physics.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give M7 a 5.

The mecha and starships are excellent until..............the Aphrodite A, VF-11 Mylene custom with the booby speakers shows up, along with the rest of the Shogun Warriors (Sound Force).

Yah, it reminds me of the only Gundam series to make me wince, G-Gundam.

However, the VF-19 Excalibers, VF-17s, VF-22s, Uraga battlecarriers, Vaurata VFs and spacecraft, were all excellent. Very Macross, very original, very well done.

I will admit I am NOT a transformers fan, NOT a G.I. Joe fan, and NOT to hip on singing pacifists in VFs.

As a massive Space Cruiser Yamato fan (in these series most of the characters die, the battles are very realistic, there is some foolishness, but the mood is generally somber, like a real war!), I was very impressed with the first Macross series, Macross 2, and Macross plus. When M7 came out I was all fired up to see it. While it was not the worst anime I have ever seen, it certainly was not the best.

I am going to compare M7 to a series that could get me shot just for mentioning it.

Oh boy here we go........................Yes, the dreaded Robotech. There I said it!

I hate to say this but, I think that Spiritia is akin to the "Flower Power" concept of Robotech. I am not bashing it, seriously. I know you gents get pissed about Robotech but all in all I have seen worse (Yu Gi Oh comes to mind). Its not like M7 is the old Superfriends horror from the 1980s. I have to say that the story of M7 is about as good as the Story from Robotech.

The animation and mecha from M7 is obviously the same quality since H.Gold ripped off Macross (or were licensed to use it depending on what side of that arguement you are on).

I do not get emotional over anime. I know many of you do. There are institutions for that kind of obessive behavior. In short I am trying to relay to you all that it IS JUST A FICTIONAL STORY! If you think it is in any way possible or (God help us) real, you may be suffering from Schizophrenia and need professional help. For those of you who are not so passionate or detached from reality, I would love to hear more of this M7 discussion.

Remember, keep you punchs clean and above the belt!!!

[robokochan]

One Sunday moonlit night, a tiny egg lay on a leaf.

The suddenly with a POP, out came a very tiny, very hungry catapiller.

On Monday he ate through one Red Apple. But he was still hungry.

On Tuesday he ate through two oranges. But he was still hungry.

On Wednesday he ate through three plums. But he was still hungry.

On Thursday he ate through four pears. But he was still hungry.

On Friday he ate through one ice cream cone, one piece of cherry pie, one sausage, one piece of cake, one watermelon, one lollipop, and one slice of cheese.

Later that night he had a terrible stomachache.

But on Saturday he ate through one nice green leaf. He felt much better after that.

The next day was Sunday again. The tiny catapiller was no longer tiny, but one big fat catapiller. He built a small house around him called a coccon, and stayed in there for more than two weeks!

Then he nibbled a small hole in the cocoon and pushed his way out. What was he?

HE was a beautiful butterfly!

M7 or The hungry Catapiller...it's just about the same. Except M7 has Valkyries and singing.

Rob MN

Edited May 3, 2004 by Monkey-N

[ewilen]

Final Vegeta, that was a great post. I don't know where you got some of that stuff about SDF Macross and WWII, but I find it plausible.

AgentONE, as I wrote in my PM, your post in response to mine was also excellent, but in spite of your experience and schooling in marketing, I'm far from convinced that your expert opinion holds weight against that of someone with extensive knowledge of modern Japanese culture. If you do have credentials in that area or experience marketing anime in Japan, I might view your claims of expertise in a different light--though in the end, I believe in evidence over credentials.

[bob joe mac]

Responding to a minor point a page back about the Valks exploding the exact way so the Varutians could grab them. I always assumed that that was the ejection device (seen in Macross TV and mentioned in M+) not just oh he exploded that exact way.

[Agent ONE]

...

AgentONE, as I wrote in my PM, your post in response to mine was also excellent, but in spite of your experience and schooling in marketing, I'm far from convinced that your expert opinion holds weight against that of someone with extensive knowledge of modern Japanese culture. If you do have credentials in that area or experience marketing anime in Japan, I might view your claims of expertise in a different light--though in the end, I believe in evidence over credentials.

Fair enough.

If it IS a show intented for the 6-12 demographic or the 10-17 demographic, it doesn't really matter that much. The reason I beat up on it so much has nothing to do with marketing... It has to do with the fact that as a Macross fan I bear the shame of the M7 affiliation.

[J A Dare]

[Wicked Ace]

Responding to a minor point a page back about the Valks exploding the exact way so the Varutians could grab them. I always assumed that that was the ejection device (seen in Macross TV and mentioned in M+) not just oh he exploded that exact way.

Actually, the VF-11 pilots don't appear to be escaping via the nose cone ejection mechanism. The VF-11s just seem to explode and come apart the right way. Note: I use VF-11s (plural) even though it's the same one exploding each time . Let's say the pilots are using the nose cone ejection mechanism. It seems to work a little too well each and every time - lame by Macross standards. I guess the VF-11 could very well have been designed to explode in that manner, but it's a reach.

[Sundown]

Personally, I would tend to agree with those that feel the battles in Macross 7 were often more cartoonish, repetative, and generally lackluster than those found in any other Macross series, OVA, or movie. I think anyone else would be hard pressed to disagree. There's far more recycled footage, and what footage there is is not as well animated as even many of the battles in SDF Macross.

However, I also believe this to be intentional. As the action is not only not a big part of the story for much of the series, it is downplayed considerably in face of the pacifist theme that dominates the story.

I think there's a difference between intentional, in that the creators didn't care to spend the time and effort in the battle scenes, because the focus was clearly elsewhere...

And intentional, as if lousy battle scenes would somehow *contribute* to the plot and focus, for fear that adequately done action sequences would somehow distract from the peace-y themes. Let's not confuse the two, now. Lackluster and subpar work rarely adds much of anything to a series, and poorly done segments, especially when the audience expects better (for whatever reason), often call attention to themselves, distracting in their own right.

-Al

[RichterX]

I like orange juice more than apple juice

[Radd]

Personally, I would tend to agree with those that feel the battles in Macross 7 were often more cartoonish, repetative, and generally lackluster than those found in any other Macross series, OVA, or movie. I think anyone else would be hard pressed to disagree. There's far more recycled footage, and what footage there is is not as well animated as even many of the battles in SDF Macross.

However, I also believe this to be intentional. As the action is not only not a big part of the story for much of the series, it is downplayed considerably in face of the pacifist theme that dominates the story.

I think there's a difference between intentional, in that the creators didn't care to spend the time and effort in the battle scenes, because the focus was clearly elsewhere...

And intentional, as if lousy battle scenes would somehow *contribute* to the plot and focus, for fear that adequately done action sequences would somehow distract from the peace-y themes. Let's not confuse the two, now. Lackluster and subpar work rarely adds much of anything to a series, and poorly done segments, especially when the audience expects better (for whatever reason), often call attention to themselves, distracting in their own right.

-Al

You misunderstand, I apologize for that. I'm not trying to excuse the horrible battle animations, what I mean is that since the emphasis was not on the battles, the animation budget was more evenly distributed from the show.

As I pointed out with Evangelion, there's some really beautiful action sequences, then the rest of the show is really pretty still frames. In Macross 7, the animation is much more consistant. The art is never really terrible, though never really great either. The animation is never really amazing, never really awful, just middle of the road. Actually, I'd say the character scenes were often better animation, but not to the extreme of Eva. Another comparison would be SDF Macross, where you have some truly wonderful episodes where the animation is just gorgeous, then you have the AnimeFiend episodes where the animation is just crap.

In fact, though you cropped that part out of my post, I clearly state that this is not something to excuse the crappy battle animations, and that M7 is not the place to go if you are looking for well done battle scenes.

So yeah, I mean that it was intentional that they did not put much effort into the battle sequences as their focus was elsewhere, and they seemed to prefere to keep a consistent level of animation rather than some well done fight scenes with much worse character animation inbetween. Sure it doesn't add to the theme or the plot to gimp the battle sequences, but it does allow them to put more effort into the rest of the animation.

[Impreszive]

Orange Juice is a good source of vitamin C!

Pure Tropicana!!!