Why don't Valks have beam sabres

[jwinges]

Considering that the whole reason for designing the transformable valkyrie was to counter the size of the Zentraidi why wouldn't they have melee weapons. I mean we finally get to see a shield in the VF-11, yf-19, yf-21 but why no beam sabres or heat axes. I mean the GU-11 is only good as an oversized club.

Of course macross zero makes this whole arguement meaningless but I'd just like to know if there was a specefic reason behind it. Was the holy floating head just trying to distance it from Gundam.

[Father Jack]

Here is why they don't listen carefully.....

...ready...

Macross is not gundam that's why. If a valk needs to fight in hand to hand it will punch/ kick/or use the gunpod or other suitable object as a club.

I hope we are clear

[RichterX]

The VF-11 had a nice mecha size armor piercing bayonet

[JsARCLIGHT]

I've always seen it that the Valkyrie is a cross-breed of a 1980's carrier based fighter and a super modern robot soldier. Those influences are seen clearly in not only the design of the Valkyrie but in it's weapons as well. The GU-11 is clearly modelled after period external gunpods like the ones on F-4 Phantoms and it plays the same role... when in robot mode it becomes a rifle for the unit to use.

Melee weapons like swords and knives are outdated in modern combat and usually only kept on hand for dire emergencies when your main weapon is empty or malfuncitoning. To me, the emergency back up weapon on the Valkyrie are the head lasers. I think of them as the "field knife" of the Valkyrie soldier unit... low on range, low on power, really only good to cut holes in things and open your C-rats. Also, knives and swords require quite a good degree of dexterity that the Valkyrie in battroid might not be able to pull off all that well to most common pilots. Look how clumsy Hikaru and even the ace Max seemed to be in Melee combat with their gunpods as clubs. Britai still managed to work both of them over quite well unarmed, perhaps the UN Spacy knew of this advantage the Zentradi would have and decided to push their doctrine to more of a "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" sort of end. It's a lot easier to shoot someone than stab them... I'd imagine it is even harder when that person is 50 feet tall.

Also keep in mind the seeming focus of the Zentran war machine on enegry weapons and heavy bombardments. The tactical doctrine of the Zentradi speaks to massed attacks, orbital thrashings and heavy artillery support... not the sort of place for a knife or sword. I think the weapon loadout of the Valkyrie speaks rather well to the supposed military doctrine of the UN Spacy at the time of the Zentran attack. If I knew I'd be going up against giants with lots and lots of big guns I'd want big guns too.

[Lezt]

also to speak, the gun pot is a good melee weapon already, just take the ak47, u cna bash in a skull or break a few bones with a few butt smacks and wacks

[RichterX]

A very nice melee combat was Max vs battle pod in the opening battle of DYRL it was pretty much punch tiring pod apart, kick, punch and firing gun to blow the alien face off...

[connor99]

Here's my take on the beam sabres and/or heat axes thing: those kind of weapons are only effective at very close ranges, like if an enemy is right in front of you! So, if you're up against a horde of ZENTRAEDI armed w/ firing weapons, I think a beam sabre or a(n) heat axe is not going to save yer butt!!

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Different sci-fi world. Maybe beam sabres were not possible in the Macross universe even with OT or they dont work as well.

[the white drew carey]

There's a semi-SD drawing of Skull001 with a blue beam saber in Perfect Memory...

I can't scan it right now because my wife is making me come to bed with her...

(oops, I mean )

[That NOS Guy]

BLASPHEMY ALARM!

What about the Metal Siren in Mac II?

BLASPHEMY ALARM!

[wolfx]

Here's my take on the beam sabres and/or heat axes thing: those kind of weapons are only effective at very close ranges, like if an enemy is right in front of you! So, if you're up against a horde of ZENTRAEDI armed w/ firing weapons, I think a beam sabre or a(n) heat axe is not going to save yer butt!!

Unless they are like Jedi with super fast reflexes and can deflect them lasers.

*imagines a variable X-Wing piloted by Luke Skywalker*

But yeah, I guess valks should AT LEAST have a "progressive knife" of sorts.

[connor99]

wolfx Posted on Apr 26 2004, 10:41 P.M.!

Unless they are like Jedi with super fast reflexes and can deflect them lasers.

*imagines a variable X-Wing piloted by Luke Skywalker*

[Graham]

As JsARCLIGHT said, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, or in the case of Macross a gun & missile fight

I've always felt that Macross portrays giant mecha and giant mecha combat in a far more realistic manner than Gundam. This is especially true of Macross Zero and Macross Plus. As I've stated in another thread recently, in my opinion Kawamori and Itano have a far better grasp on military technology and combat tactics than Tomino.

If you have a giant mecha bristing with projectile weapons, beam weapons and missiles and capable of supersonic (or in somecases hypersonic) speeds, it's pretty silly to go charging at each other with giant swords and axes (if you want to live that is)

Using a real world example (sorta), I've yet to see an M1 Abrams tank with a Lance strapped to it's barrel go charging at another tank like a Knight of old (although jousting tanks would be kinda cool to see IMO)

There may be certain rare occasions when close-quarter mecha combat may take place, such as urban combat in a city or combat within the confines of a ship, but this would be the exception rather than the rule and in most cases ranged weapons could still be used and are superior to any melee weapon.

And as others have said for emergencies, VFs have fists and feet for punching and kicking and can use gunpods as clubs. The VF-11B has a bayonet and the YF/VF-19 and YF-21 and VF-22 (and maybe other VFs) also can perform a pin-point barrier punch.

One-on-one Gundam style beam sabre melee combats may look cool in anime, but IMO are not very realistic and are there purely for the 'visual coolness' factor rather than any percieved attempt at realism. OK, I know we're talking about giant anime robots, so any discussion on 'realism' is highly subjective. However, I've always thought mecha combat in Gundam is generally fairly unrealistic for a show which is supposed to be a 'real robot' anime.

Graham

[jwinges]

Good answer. I forgot about the pin point barrior fists on the 19,21,& 22.

Mainly it was the fight against bretai that made me think about this. I agree that the combat in macross is leaps and bounds closer to reality than that of gundam.

[Keith]

The answer is much simpler than any of that. Gundam, at least UC, had nearly all radar nullified by the invention of minovsky particles. All targetting was pretty much done manually, though it appears some IR technology came about by the time of Zeta & along with the panoramic view cockpick. Close combat weapons like the beam saber were necessary because fights would take place in close quarters anyway. That's what was so important about Newtypes, their precognition worked as a radar system allowing them to track enemies when they weren't within an imidiate line of sight.

Macross doesn't have that problem, and no beam sable would be able to hold up against a full missile barage.

[the white drew carey]

Damn, I'm too slow.

What Keith said.

[ewilen]

I've only seen a tiny bit of Gundam...anyway, I really like Keith's explanation.

And just to throw something in that's slightly relevant...

I've read that in 1939, Polish cavalry used lances against the panzers...but when I double-checked the story just now, it seems the story is apocryphal. Bummer.

I've also read that the Russian tanks at Prokhorovka (a part of the battle of Kursk in 1943) resorted to ramming the German panzers when they ran out of ammo or had their guns disabled...but recent research apparently has debunked much of that story. And so another great military story bites the dust...damn.

[Graham]

I've never bought into the whole premise in Gundam that just beacuse radar is mostly nulified by minovsky particles that combat has to be mostly a point blank "bash-em-over-the-head" type affair.

In modern warfare, tanks shoot other tanks at ranges of 3-4km. Optically guided TOW missiles have a range of 3km. IR homing missiles like the Sidewinder have a range of at least 10km.

When you have modern ranged weapons, swords and axes become obsolete. this is why infantry today fight with rifles and machineguns instead of running around chopping each other up with swords

Graham

[yellowlightman]

Beam sabers existed in Gundam because it was 1979 and everyone loved Star Wars at the time.

[Graham]

Beam sabers existed in Gundam because it was 1979 and everyone loved Star Wars at the time.

Exactly.

Graham

[Chowser]

please forgive me for not adding much to this, (it's 4am and i'm a little drunk).

My Valk has a beam sabre!

(Hikaru stole it from Heero)

[Graham]

But yeah, I guess valks should AT LEAST have a "progressive knife" of sorts.

You mean like a err.....giant box cutter.....LOL.....

Graham

[Graham]

(it's 4am and i'm a little drunk).

Only a little drunk? Shame on you! Now go and get very drunk

It's still 2 more hours till I get off work and can have a cold one.

Graham

[Southcross]

(it's 4am and i'm a little drunk).

Only a little drunk? Shame on you! Now go and get very drunk

It's still 2 more hours till I get off work and can have a cold one.

Graham

its 2:55am... I'm at work and I WISH I was drunk

[Southcross]

please forgive me for not adding much to this, (it's 4am and i'm a little drunk).

My Valk has a beam sabre!

(Hikaru stole it from Heero)

Macross >meets> Gundam >meets> Star Wars

That explains it!!! That is why Max was so good, he's secretly a Jedi... Master of the Flying Arts!!!

[Druna Skass]

If not a beam saber then why not a giant switch blade type thing in the fore arms. I mean we've seen situations with VF grappleing with some thing (Nora and Shin), running out of ammo (again, Nora and Shin), or having a gunpod jam (Isamu's squadmate). It'll be nice to have something that works all the time for situations like that. And I'm sure it'll please the particularly sadistic VF pilots.

[Southcross]

If not a beam saber then why not a giant switch blade type thing in the fore arms. I mean we've seen situations with VF grappleing with some thing (Nora and Shin), running out of ammo (again, Nora and Shin), or having a gunpod jam (Isamu's squadmate). It'll be nice to have something that works all the time for situations like that. And I'm sure it'll please the particularly sadistic VF pilots.

Well in regards to Isamu... there is that scene where Isamu uses a bayonet... which IMO is an excelent close combat weapon that should be incorporated in all the gun pod designs. perfect for cutting open Pods, Power Armor, Zentradi size cans of Tuna...

[vanpang]

Yeah that was a great idea to incorporate a bayonet into the gunpod for VF-11, but we do not see it in the later models VF19 or VF22.

[Southcross]

Yeah that was a great idea to incorporate a bayonet into the gunpod for VF-11, but we do not see it in the later models VF19 or VF22.

ya its too bad... image the size of the blade... its gotta be the size of a Human profile.. maybe the profile of two people... its kinda hard to picture the exact scale

[Tekkaman Blade]

Beam Sabres? Heat Axes?

Am I still in the Macross Forum?! \

The most you'd get is some kind of vibroblade or the saw-knife like in EVA (someone posted it). This show's timeline was back in the year 1999 whereas Gundam starts in a time where people live in space already in big colonies.

What did you expect?

Edited April 27, 2004 by Tekkaman Blade

[Impreszive]

The one thing I like in Macross above Gundam is the fact that there are no Newtypes that can go around killing and destroying everything. In Gundam, the main Mobile Suits and the main character pilots were nigh untouchable by the rest of the "mortals" It got real old real fast. Oh yeah, and Valkyries can't take out huge Cap ships one on one; whereas Amuro took out some Zeon Battleship with a Beam Sabre!

Macross defintiely has the edge in vehicular combat. I don't even think the VFs needed a knife as a backup. They weren't built for protracted combat to begin with, like most combat fighters.

[Mr March]

The nature of warfare is different in the Macross universe than in the Gundam universe as is the advancement of technology. This changes the order of battle.

In the Gundam universe (as was already mentioned), the field of battle has narrowed and radar has been hampered severely through the discovery of Minovsky Particles. This by no means nullifies long range combat (as Graham was so quick to point out, and Keith with specific examples from Zeta Gundam) but it does have a serious impact on the overall effectiveness of ranged warfare. Thus, the possibility of hand-to-hand is once again a reality of combat, since close quarters battle occurs much more frequently in the Gundam universe. The mecha in Gundam are also heavy and very large and mostly ground based unless in a vacuum. Thus their options as far as retreat and tactics are limited to an infantry role. Not all the time, but often enough combat will be in melee range and occurs enough to justify the use of beam sabers, heat hawks, and shields.

In the Macross univers, the field of battle has actually expanded and detection technology has advanced rather than regressed. The development of fold technology, super long range weaponry like the Macross cannon, and Cyclops Cross-Dimensional radar systems have advanced detection of the enemy and increased range of opportunity to levels far outside modern combat. Also, combat mecha have increased in speed and manuverability and a single mecha is able to engage not just upon land, but air, sea, and space without outside tertiary support. As a result, direct fire energy weaponry, high velocity gunpods, and most importantly missiles are the necessity of the modern Macross warfare.

Different directions for different visions of future warfare. Hence, different mecha.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Mr March

[the white drew carey]

I'd like to add in that in Gundam, a TOW missile is a very bad idea, since you have to visually guide the missile towards it's target, you cant really pay attention to anything else around you. Sure, Tanks fight from 3-4km out, but a MS can cover that same distance much, much faster than a tank.

Like Mr March said: Different strokes for different blokes.

[Anubis]

Remember though, while the VF-11 had the bayonet, the YF/VF-19 and YF-21/VF-22 can both perform the pinpoint barrier punch. I agree some forearm beam blades would be cool, but beam sabers just don't exist in macross land. Energy cannons and pin-point barriers, yes.

A pin-point barrier punch would still ruin someone's day quickly. Not to mention the forearm lasers the -21/-22 has, and the wing root lasers the -19 has. Plenty of close-range punch on those valks.

[Impreszive]

Sheer speed is a major factor as well. The Valks make most MS look pittifully slow.