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Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!


Valkyrie Driver

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50 minutes ago, aurance said:

I’m sure this has been asked before, but...

What do VFs use as propellant in space? Is it same as their reaction fuel?

With the thermonuclear turbine reaction engines: yes.  Technically it's described as "reactant".

Variable Fighter Master File indicates that the booster packs use a hydrogen-oxygen slush for fuel.  However, that's not what the thermonuclear engines use—one book in the series indicates that a long duration unmanned test space flight (think decades) uses specially modified engines that can generate plasma with hydrogen.  However, its huge fuel tank (lifted from the Space Shuttle) contains separate tanks with hydrogen and "reactant".

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2 hours ago, aurance said:

What do VFs use as propellant in space? Is it same as their reaction fuel?

Sort of... their thermonuclear reaction turbine engines use the plasma produced in their compact thermonuclear reactors as propellant in space flight.

This approach understandably has its ups and downs.  The practical benefits include a greatly simplified fuel system that only needs tanks for one type of fuel material that can be used with equal ease in atmosphere and space and being able to make that hydrogen slush fuel pull double duty as a coolant for the engine.  The primary downside is that using the plasma produced in the reactors as main engine propellant in space flight forces the VF to consume its fuel exponentially faster in space.  This, of course, led to the addition of FAST packs that compensated for this shortcoming by adding liquid-fuel rockets to reduce the burden on the main engines and massive bolt-on fuel tanks to extend the onboard fuel supply.  A VF-1's FF-2001 engines have enough fuel to run for almost a month in atmosphere... but in space, at maximum thrust the internal propellant supply is good for about ten minutes at the VF's maximum thrust.  That's 4,200x increase in fuel consumption.

Verniers and so on burn liquid hydrogen and oxygen, as do the liquid fuel rockets built into some VFs (e.g. the VF-1's backpack) and bolt-on rockets like the VF-1's Super Pack.

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11 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So how long with fast packs..?

There's no hard and fast numbers available.

However, the general description is that even with FAST Packs, the VF-1 is basically only a short range fighter in space.  In publications like Variable Fighter Master File we even get a description that the VF-4 was adopted as a long-range interceptor, and the VF-1 is basically a close-in defence craft.

There's also something in the VFMF book about the VF-1's basically having to coast part of the way to the target during the battle in Saturn's rings, and they had to wait for the SDF-1 to come to them to land—as they didn't have enough fuel to make the return trip (keep in mind that those VF-1's didn't have FAST packs).

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43 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So how long with fast packs..?

Based on what's said in Master File with respect to the capacity of the conformal fuel tanks the Super Pack adds... between 30 and 45 minutes of main engine operation at full power, but that's extended by the use of rockets to supplement the main engines.

 

 

26 minutes ago, sketchley said:

However, the general description is that even with FAST Packs, the VF-1 is basically only a short range fighter in space.  In publications like Variable Fighter Master File we even get a description that the VF-4 was adopted as a long-range interceptor, and the VF-1 is basically a close-in defence craft.

Not to mention that the VF-4 is a substantially better space fighter than the VF-1 is at any range.

What was the number they gave?  A 40% improvement over the VF-1 Super Valkyrie in space combat performance?

 

26 minutes ago, sketchley said:

There's also something in the VFMF book about the VF-1's basically having to coast part of the way to the target during the battle in Saturn's rings, and they had to wait for the SDF-1 to come to them to land—as they didn't have enough fuel to make the return trip (keep in mind that those VF-1's didn't have FAST packs).

There's some talk in the second VFMF book about fuel bladders that were inserted into the intakes for that purpose, but they didn't provide a significant increase in fuel capacity.

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Totally agree. Every time I look at the VF-4, I think, this is seriously the space jet I drew when I was a kid. I know it took some inspiration from the YF-12 / SR-71, but even those looked like they belonged in space. It's a shame we haven't gotten to see it in a starring role in an anime yet.

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So, I just got the variable Fighter Master master file for the VF-31. I was a little disappointed that they did not have any more information on the SV-262. Also the variations on the VF-31 design were a little “out there”, thought the VF-31 with the YF-29 wing engines on it was interesting, but the U-wing/VF-31 design kitbash was different, of course, I cannot read Japanese, so I have no idea the explanation was for it, did this book bring anything else cool to the VF-31?

Twich

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10 minutes ago, twich said:

So, I just got the variable Fighter Master master file for the VF-31. I was a little disappointed that they did not have any more information on the SV-262. Also the variations on the VF-31 design were a little “out there”, thought the VF-31 with the YF-29 wing engines on it was interesting, but the U-wing/VF-31 design kitbash was different, of course, I cannot read Japanese, so I have no idea the explanation was for it, did this book bring anything else cool to the VF-31?

Nope... I'd call Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried one of the most disappointing installments in the series.

Most of the VF-31 book's technical material is reprinted content originally written for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah.  It must be admitted that this is at least partly justified by the VF-31's high level of parts commonality with the VF-25, but it's still disappointing.  The portions of the VF-31 book that are actually original are mostly garbage.  The worst of its issues is that the writers seem to periodically forget that the Siegfrieds are extremely expensive one-of-a-kind Ace Custom units individually tailored to their pilots by a third party that modified trial production VF-31A Kairos units from their stock configuration.  It keeps trying to pass the Siegfried off as a production-intent configuration.

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Yeah, I thought it strange that they seemed to call a VF-31A a VF-31S interchangeably and the only difference being the wing was either forward swept of delta, and the S model had only 1 head laser. In the first few pages, they have a VF-31J made up in the livery of the VF-31C, complete with the Delta -04, but 1 head laser, not 2. Bad cg or a screw up on the model builders part. Some of those variants designs did not look like they were able to transform because of the wings or boosters

Twich

PS- I cant read Japanese, but what was the little blurb on the YF-19 Advance that looked like a YF-19 with a VF-25/31 nose and the container of the YF-30 instead of a shield. Is that supposed to be the basis of the YVF-31? 

Edited by twich
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They didn't even bother to put in a weapons pod that could hold the gun and didn't have a drone charger. As in they didn't put in what the Kairos should have been carrying, and what ought to be the standard pod loadout.

 

Various missile/beam spam pods, but none of them held the gun.

Edited by Sanity is Optional
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On 5/23/2020 at 6:49 PM, kajnrig said:

You can tell they're all related, though. They all transform very similarly. Their "trunk" sections are basically the same. Part of the reason why the Draken III was such a big draw to me was because of how different it was from the YF-24 derivatives in terms of its overall shape and how that affected its transformation.

IIRC, the original pitch for Delta was two competing civilian flight demonstration/idol groups, which I would have vastly preferred to what we got. The VF-31 and SV-262 could even still feature as the two sides in a neighboring war that the main story gets dragged into or something. But have the demo teams flying non-VFs or civilian VF-1s/-4s or even VF-9s, that definitely looks the most "trainer"-y of the various VF designs.

Bah. Anyway.

What is your source for the original kawamori pitch?  Would like to know more. 

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14 minutes ago, Captain Global said:

What is your source for the original kawamori pitch?  Would like to know more. 

Think it was mentioned by @Seto Kaiba somewhere in this thread or maybe another one.

Edited by deathzealot
making it read easier
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4 hours ago, Captain Global said:

What is your source for the original kawamori pitch?  Would like to know more. 

IIRC that's in the Blu-ray liner notes... alongside the remarks about the original plan for the series having been 13 episodes and a movie until early in its development.

 

 

19 hours ago, twich said:

Yeah, I thought it strange that they seemed to call a VF-31A a VF-31S interchangeably and the only difference being the wing was either forward swept of delta, and the S model had only 1 head laser. In the first few pages, they have a VF-31J made up in the livery of the VF-31C, complete with the Delta -04, but 1 head laser, not 2. Bad cg or a screw up on the model builders part. Some of those variants designs did not look like they were able to transform because of the wings or boosters

There are a number of one-off errors like that Mirage VF-31C error on page 007... though if you look on the very next page, you'll notice they got it right in every other picture in that section.  All told, I suspect there are just too damn many versions of the VF-31 and they got them mixed up because they're trying to focus on Xaos Valkyrie Works' VF-31 Siegfried in place of the much better-looking production model.

The book is, at least, not using VF-31A and VF-31S interchangeably... it very clearly differentiates the two, but it spends a LOT of time trying to explain how they're different while not really giving much attention to the VF-31A that's tipped to be the next main fighter of the Brisingr Alliance NUNS.  It's a bit frustrating, since this book outright contradicts the series itself about the origins of the VF-31 customs that Xaos uses... trying to pass the forward-swept winglets and so on off as alternative prototypes instead of an aftermarket custom job.

As to Master File's "original" variants... they tend to fall into three basic categories:

  1. Accidental duplication of things that already exist in Macross's official setting... e.g. Master File's VF-1N is essentially the exact same thing as the official setting's VF-1A+ and its VF-1G is essentially just a VEFR-1 drawn in a less cluttered style.
  2. Sensible things which almost certainly exist offscreen in the official setting... e.g. model conversion training variants for the VF-19 and VF-25, a VF-19 AWACS variant, a bomber variant of the VF-22, and so on.
  3. Ridiculous-looking garbage that the authors conceived of seemingly without regard for feasibility, which exist mainly to pad a book's page count.

The way it seems to work with Master File, the less official setting material there is for a particular design the more likely they are to pad the book out with original variants and thus the more likely it is that they'll start throwing in stuff that belongs in that third category.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the three worst books - VF-22, VF-4, and VF-31 - have a lot of those out-there original variants in them and are HEAVILY padded to cover for a lack of research.  The very best books in the series, the VF-19 and VF-25 books, also have lots of variants, but they're more sensible ones that were clearly given a fair amount of actual thought and the few out-there ones they have mostly aren't original.

 

19 hours ago, twich said:

PS- I cant read Japanese, but what was the little blurb on the YF-19 Advance that looked like a YF-19 with a VF-25/31 nose and the container of the YF-30 instead of a shield. Is that supposed to be the basis of the YVF-31? 

Nope... at the very least, the writers of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried remembered that the VF-31 was a further development of the Shinsei/LAI/Uroboros YF-30 Chronos from Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.  They do make several mentions of an improved YF-30B along the way as well, in a similar vein to the YF-29B that appeared in Macross 30's story as the rival's VF.

That little blurb on page 028 about a "YF-19 Advance" is somewhat unhelpful from an official setting viewpoint since there's already a specific aircraft called "VF-19ADVANCE" in the novelization of the Macross Frontier movies (which is also variously known as "VF-19 SMS Ver." in the official artbooks and "VF-19EF/A Isamu Special" in Macross Chronicle).  What it describes is the term "VF-19 Advance" as an umbrella term for a number of different modernization and refurbishment plans that've been applied to the VF-19 over the years by the Jan Neumann design office at Shinsei Industry.  This one in particular is described as a refurbished model (presumably post-2060) that includes new nose sensor windows, a new tail design, and the multipurpose container unit from the YF-30.

 

17 hours ago, Sanity is Optional said:

They didn't even bother to put in a weapons pod that could hold the gun and didn't have a drone charger. As in they didn't put in what the Kairos should have been carrying, and what ought to be the standard pod loadout.

To be fair, it may well be that the default configuration is meant to be similar to the YF-30's where the gunpod was stored in a conventional centerline weapons station instead of on the container itself (as it is when Delta Flight equips the fold speaker container early in Macross Delta).

Having the beam gunpod on the container kind of apes the MDE beam cannon turret that the YF-30 had in the novelization of Macross 30.

 

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2 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

I think the Caliburn was a special 19 from The Ride?

Yes, but if I remember correctly the Caliburn was actually developed for the use of the SMS, mostly the SMS Frontier Branch which they used it before they received their Messiahs. In fact, I do believe they are also mentioned in the Frontier novelizations. Am I correct @Seto Kaiba?

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1 minute ago, deathzealot said:

Isn't the VF-19 SMS Version the VF-19EF Caliburn? Or was that another name for Isamu's own variant he used at the end of the second Frontier Movie?

As I hinted at in my previous post, nomenclature is a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to the VF-19 that Isamu flies in Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa... and I'm going to try to put this in approximate chronological order by publication:

January 2011  The light novel Macross the Ride starts serialization in Dengeki Hobby magazine, and its first chapter "Deep Space Warbird" establishes that the branch of SMS operating in the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet had several platoons equipped with a locally-developed VF-19 "monkey model" variant designated "VF-19EF Caliburn".  The VF-19EF Caliburn is a 2nd Mass Production type VF-19 modified for all-regime operation, and to a limited extent is used for data collection for the YF-25 program.

26 February 2011  The movie Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa debuts in theaters, incl. a brief cameo scene featuring Isamu Dyson flying an aircraft that appears to be a 1st Mass Production type VF-19 in colors identical to his infamous YF-19-2 from Macross Plus.

31 March 2011  Ukyo Kodachi's novelization of Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa is released.  The text identifies Isamu's VF-19 as the "VF-19ADVANCE Excalibur Advance".

16 April 2011  The Official Complete Book: Theatrical Version Macross F: Sayonara no Tsubasa is released.  Isamu's VF-19 is mentioned only in passing, and referred to only as a "VF-19 SMS Ver." in the text.

13 May 2014  Issue 69 (nice) of Macross Chronicle's revised edition is published, including a Mechanic Sheet for Isamu's VF-19 which refers to it as the "VF-19EF/A Isamu Special" and specifically links it to the monkey model VF-19EF Caliburn from Macross the Ride.

June 2015  Bandai releases the DX Chogokin toy for Isamu's VF-19.  The packaging uses the movie novelization's designation "VF-19ADVANCE".

March 2017  Hasegawa releases a 1/72 scale kit of Isamu's VF-19.  The packaging uses the Macross Chronicle designation "VF-19EF/A Isamu Special".

17 March 2017  SoftBank releases Variable Fighter Master File: VF-31 Siegfried, which includes the offending statement that refers to the "VF-19 Advance" as being a catch-all name for modernizations and refurbishments of the VF-19.

 

So you see the problem...

Isamu's VF-19 from the movie has been very inconsistently named... the movie's official artbook just calls it "VF-19 SMS Ver.", Macross Chronicle and Hasegawa's kit call it "VF-19EF/A Isamu Special", and the movie's novelization and Bandai call it "VF-19ADVANCE Excalibur Advance".

In any event, prior to SoftBank walking in and trying to change the context of "VF-19 Advance", the term referred to a very specific unique aircraft built for Isamu Dyson and not some family of VF-19 modernization programs.  Hence the weird disconnect with that thing in the VF-31 Master File that seemingly has a VF-25's nose, a YF-30's multipurpose container, and the VF-31's tail.

 

 

8 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

I think the Caliburn was a special 19 from The Ride?

4 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Yes, but if I remember correctly the Caliburn was actually developed for the use of the SMS, mostly the SMS Frontier Branch which they used it before they received their Messiahs. In fact, I do believe they are also mentioned in the Frontier novelizations. Am I correct @Seto Kaiba?

Yeah, the VF-19EF Caliburn was a new design in Macross the Ride... one of several special VF-19s to appear in that story (also the only one of those that was a mass production unit).

The VF-19EF Caliburn was a VF-19 variant that the Macross Frontier fleet independently developed based on the reduced capability export specification for the VF-19E Excalibur.  Like the YF/VF-25, it was a joint venture of the fleet arsenal, Shinsei Industry, and LAI.  Modifications were made to the design to improve its atmospheric performance from the VF-19 2nd production type that had been optimized for space use.

They built 156 of them, which were divided up between the fleet's New UN Forces, a New UN Spacy special counterterrorism unit called "Round Table", and the fleet's branch of SMS.

There were three variants developed... the base VF-19EF, a command variant informally designated VF-19EFs, and a reconnaissance/AWACs variant designated RVF-19EF.  A few were converted into the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung technology demonstrator specification.  Some were outfitted with EX-Gear.

The first couple of trial production VF-25s were entering service when the VF-19EF was being used by the NUNS and much of SMS in Macross the Ride

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21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That should have landed Isamu in prison, had Dr. Jan Neumann not covered for him.

Which is just so Isamu. Attempt to commit minor treason just so he can fly his favorite plane ever, and then actually get away with it.

Edited by JB0
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Well , flying cargo for SMS to pay her off may be considered minor punishment. At least he had Basara and Ranka on one run (to Earth I believe) Lol.

With the VF-19 Advance kitty in Isamu's hands, we're talking a one man platoon. 

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18 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Well , flying cargo for SMS to pay her off may be considered minor punishment. At least he had Basara and Ranka on one run (to Earth I believe) Lol.

With the VF-19 Advance kitty in Isamu's hands, we're talking a one man platoon. 

Barsara and Freya actually.

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As long as he gets to fly the 19, Isamu don’t care. 
 

Wonder how Myung puts up with him... if she actually does any more. 

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2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Well , flying cargo for SMS to pay her off may be considered minor punishment. At least he had Basara and Ranka on one run (to Earth I believe) Lol.

With the VF-19 Advance kitty in Isamu's hands, we're talking a one man platoon.

2 hours ago, Focslain said:

Barsara and Freya actually.

Huh. Where is that from?

 

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59 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Huh. Where is that from?

 

It was an event a while back. The head liners were the VAs for Isamu, Barsara, Freya and Sharon Apple with Fukuyama making a 'surprise' appearance. 

Speakerpodcast discussed it I think two or three episodes ago. Story was from a fan I believe too.

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5 hours ago, Bolt said:

Well , flying cargo for SMS to pay her off may be considered minor punishment. At least he had Basara and Ranka on one run (to Earth I believe) Lol.

Oh, it cost him a lot more than that... he sank his entire life savings into that VF-19EF/A.

 

5 hours ago, Bolt said:

With the VF-19 Advance kitty in Isamu's hands, we're talking a one man platoon. 

Assuming, of course, that Spaz Platoon can keep its undiagnosed ADHD under control long enough to actually deal with its assigned objectives...

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

As long as he gets to fly the 19, Isamu don’t care. 

Wonder how Myung puts up with him... if she actually does any more. 

One has to wonder... Isamu isn't exactly a stable individual by any stretch of the imagination.  He's a meatheaded adrenaline junkie with poor impulse control and little-to-no respect for authority.  That's why every part of his career in the New UN Forces was punctuated with disciplinary hearings, administrative punishments, and multiple punitive reassignments.  Even a major achievement like having defeated the out-of-control AI Sharon Apple after it seized control of Earth's defenses was tainted by the fact that he stole a heavily armed top secret VF and a fold booster test article, destroyed part of a hangar complex at New Edwards Test Flight Center, incurred some pretty hefty expenses for the Eden NUNS chasing him in his stolen VF and trying to shoot him down, attacked and destroyed part of Earth's orbital defense network, and caused all kinds of property damage on Earth beforehand.  He took his retirement from the New UN Forces to avoid being pushed into an administrative position where he'd have to behave like a responsible adult, blew his life savings on a VF after attempting to buy a banned-for-export VF one part at a time in an illegal transaction, and took a job as a space trucker with Bilra Transport.

If Myung is still with him, she's probably aging at ten times the rate he is from the stress of dealing with him.  If they were together for any length of time, my bet is she dumped him or divorced him after he nearly got arrested for trying to buy VF-19 parts under the table and blew his entire savings on a VF before running off to live as a space trucker in the sticks.

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