HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

Oooh...

, too!

I think that "My Little Pony" would have been more suited for some sort of crossover with Equus. I would pay to see that.

Taksraven

edit: OOPS, just took it to page 34.

Edited February 21, 2010 by taksraven

[Gubaba]

I think that "My Little Pony" would have been more suited for some sort of crossover with Equus. I would pay to see that.

Taksraven

Yeah...seeing all the little pony dolls with their eyes gouged out would be rather satisfying, wouldn't it?

[taksraven]

Yeah...seeing all the little pony dolls with their eyes gouged out would be rather satisfying, wouldn't it?

And

could be the theme tune........

We would have to lose the sax solo........

Taksraven

[taksraven]

It still looks better than this.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

I think these days individual fans are becoming more and more replaceable to the creative team to meet certain goals in exchange for very little risk.

Saying that Harmony Gold places very little value on the opinions and feelings of Robotech fans doesn't quite do it justice. On those rare occasions when I've had to deal with Harmony Gold staffers directly, I've always come away with the distinct impression that they see the vast majority of Robotech fans as unthinking cattle who don't have a clue what they really want and will happily buy any damn thing they're told to so long as it has the word "Robotech" on the box somewhere. It seems like, to them, Robotech fans only matter as a group... a herd of gullible mooks who can be easily manipulated using their nostalgic childhood memories of the show. Individual fans don't matter, as they're not likely to cause a huge dent in Harmony Gold's bottom line, and intelligent, well-informed fans are more a liability to them than anything else.

If I had to point to a cause for their casual disregard for the fans and public opinion of how they run the franchise, I'd say it's probably because Robotech has always been a side job for Harmony Gold. If the franchise goes under, it's not a big deal because it won't unduly inconvenience Harmony Gold any or do severe damage to the company's bottom line. It really is a case of them having no incentive to keep the fans happy.

I'm sure that those at HG follow the usual pattern for projects......

Oh, no doubt... I seldom see a company that seems to take as many pointers from the management in Dilbert as Harmony Gold does.

Phases of a Project:

1 -- Exultation

25th Anniversary! W00T!

2 -- Disenchantment

Hey wait a goddamn minute, they don't have ANYTHING new to show us this year? Nothing at all?

3 -- Search for the Guilty

It must be the economy, or maybe Warner's interfering, or maybe it's the Macross purist trolls!

4 -- Punishment of the Innocent

BURN BAN THE HERETICS!

5 -- Praise for the Uninvolved

LOL OMG CARL MACEK IS BACK ON ROBTOECH! THIS IS GREET NEWS!

Or something along those lines...

[Pizza the Hutt]

Allow me to toss something in this abyss of Robotech's future.

It may not be much to shoot at Memo and his blind ambitions for the success of Harmony Gold,but why would HG staff fire/let go Sue Blu? the director of voice talents (or what ever her part was) in Shadow Rising?

Even when I was Memo's friend I asked him about it and he still said HG is on a roll with Robotech.How the heck can something be on a roll if it is on indefinte hiatus and then fire a key person,,maybe the only thing on a roll from HG is the bull crap they roll at us from Kevin Mckeever and Memo and HG staff at conventions.

Sorry,I type funny when I remember funny things,like Steve's face in that recent vid when fans asked to bring over Frontier..I repeat,,an epic wooden face he had at that moment.

[Seto Kaiba]

Allow me to toss something in this abyss of Robotech's future.

Toss away, I have no doubt that Harmony Gold will continue to ignore the time-honored advice that when one finds oneself in a hole, the first thing one should do is stop digging.

Even when I was Memo's friend I asked him about it and he still said HG is on a roll with Robotech.How the heck can something be on a roll if it is on indefinte hiatus and then fire a key person,,maybe the only thing on a roll from HG is the bull crap they roll at us from Kevin Mckeever and Memo and HG staff at conventions.

Well, it's entirely possible that she simply ran afoul of someone influential in the endless rounds of backstabbing that supposedly pass for corporate politics at Harmony Gold. It wouldn't exactly be difficult to end up hurting Tommy Yune's delicate feelings or bruising his massive ego in the course of an honest day's work. It's never exactly been a secret that Harmony Gold talks a big game and never delivers... they've been doing that for decades now.

For all their doubletalk, Shadow Rising is stalled indefinitely while Harmony Gold waits for a live-action movie that may never happen to raise their franchise's profile in the eyes of potential investors so they can get bigger budgets and stop turning out material that would've easily been a profound embarrassment to any capable studio ten years ago. The live action movie is in no better condition, stalled in early pre-production while they wait for an inept group of writers, one of whom has NO experience writing sci-fi at all, to finish a script.

Sorry,I type funny when I remember funny things,like Steve's face in that recent vid when fans asked to bring over Frontier..I repeat,,an epic wooden face he had at that moment.

Nah, that wasn't a wooden face... that was a "damnit, I'm trying as hard as I can not to facepalm in front of everyone" face.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

Robotech: Frontier could be great. Grace is just looking for Rick Hunter and the SDF-3.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Well I did now...and true, it's hilarious (Still, just the idea of a "true to the original series" one fills me with dread )

I think that "My Little Pony" would have been more suited for some sort of crossover with Equus. I would pay to see that.

Taksraven

My Little Pony 2

Edited February 21, 2010 by BeyondTheGrave

[Jasonc]

It may not be much to shoot at Memo and his blind ambitions for the success of Harmony Gold,but why would HG staff fire/let go Sue Blu? the director of voice talents (or what ever her part was) in Shadow Rising?

Even when I was Memo's friend I asked him about it and he still said HG is on a roll with Robotech.How the heck can something be on a roll if it is on indefinte hiatus and then fire a key person,,maybe the only thing on a roll from HG is the bull crap they roll at us from Kevin Mckeever and Memo and HG staff at conventions.

Sorry,I type funny when I remember funny things,like Steve's face in that recent vid when fans asked to bring over Frontier..I repeat,,an epic wooden face he had at that moment.

She was gonna have different people than the original VAs, for voices like the Regis, and a couple others I think. I think she was just being counter productive, and therefore, they got Richard Epcar, who seemed to get the job done well and efficiently, for what was given him.

[Einherjar]

Allow me to toss something in this abyss of Robotech's future.

It may not be much to shoot at Memo and his blind ambitions for the success of Harmony Gold,but why would HG staff fire/let go Sue Blu? the director of voice talents (or what ever her part was) in Shadow Rising?

Even when I was Memo's friend I asked him about it and he still said HG is on a roll with Robotech.How the heck can something be on a roll if it is on indefinte hiatus and then fire a key person,,maybe the only thing on a roll from HG is the bull crap they roll at us from Kevin Mckeever and Memo and HG staff at conventions.

You should have been here when MEMO talked about consulting lawyers from work about the legalities of Robotech and Macross. Hearsay is never proof. I still have a copy of the PM, in fact. That gave a hint of how reliable a source of information he really was.

[Seto Kaiba]

She was gonna have different people than the original VAs, for voices like the Regis, and a couple others I think. I think she was just being counter productive, and therefore, they got Richard Epcar, who seemed to get the job done well and efficiently, for what was given him.

Overall, the decision to veto Sue Blu's plan to bring in new voice actors was almost certainly detrimental to the project's extremely limited budget. As mentioned in AoTSC, most if not all of the original Robotech VA cast are in the screen actor's guild these days, so they cost more. Between bringing the original VAs in on the project and hiring "big name" VA talent like Mark Hamill and Chase Masterson, a considerable part of their aggressively limited budget was devoted to just bringing in familiar voices. Using new voice actors could've saved them a not-inconsiderable amount of money... money which could've gone towards hiring a real writer or producing higher-quality animation.

Having members of the original voice cast reprise their roles in Shadow Chronicles might've appeased the more anal Robotech die-hards, but it hurt the project in the long run.

You should have been here when MEMO talked about consulting lawyers from work about the legalities of Robotech and Macross. Hearsay is never proof. I still have a copy of the PM, in fact. That gave a hint of how reliable a source of information he really was.

Hearsay doesn't even cover it... he claimed to have talked to an industry lawyer during the course of his day job, but didn't show said lawyer the court documents (or a translation thereof), and simply posed hypotheticals based on his incredibly limited (nonexistent) knowledge of the legal situation. When prompted, he couldn't give the name of the lawyer he supposedly spoke to, or any other pertinent details.

[Jasonc]

Overall, the decision to veto Sue Blu's plan to bring in new voice actors was almost certainly detrimental to the project's extremely limited budget. As mentioned in AoTSC, most if not all of the original Robotech VA cast are in the screen actor's guild these days, so they cost more. Between bringing the original VAs in on the project and hiring "big name" VA talent like Mark Hamill and Chase Masterson, a considerable part of their aggressively limited budget was devoted to just bringing in familiar voices. Using new voice actors could've saved them a not-inconsiderable amount of money... money which could've gone towards hiring a real writer or producing higher-quality animation.

Having members of the original voice cast reprise their roles in Shadow Chronicles might've appeased the more anal Robotech die-hards, but it hurt the project in the long run.

The style they were going in had all VAs that were SAG members. They also changed the VA for Marcus. But all they did was change SAG VAs with other SAG VAs who've done the parts before. I think part of that was actually the negative fan reaction that started coming out when they found out that some voices weren't gonna reprise their roles. They threw Melanie McQueen a bone and let her do Marlene, but it seemed like a waste of money to have others come in, do roles, then swap a couple out maybe. Who knows, maybe Sue Blue just didn't have the drive to recast original VAs, who knows. There's so many reasons, but I know the only thing that really cost more was having to pay additional actors to replace the ones they should've had in the first place, and the "high profile" actors.

[Pizza the Hutt]

Jasonc

She was gonna have different people than the original VAs, for voices like the Regis

Oh man, Maybe the voice actors got tired of waiting for that phone call from harmony FOLD and had no choice but to search for new VAs.

But one change that would be awesome would be getting a better voice for The Regis and the best voice for The Regis would be Pat Carroll who did the voice for Ursula in Little Mermaid and Kingdom Hearts 1&2. For some strange reason I like that charecter voice and the Regis voice seems so condecending like and no charisma.

Side note,

I realized that it must be true what others has been saying this whole time about HG not able to create things without Macross elements because what Steve said in that vid "HG tried to license Mac7" means that HG has no ideas how to continue Robotech unless they dub another anime with the name Robotech.

Either that is made up or HG has no shame considering how HG is trying to hurt the Macross franchise.

My foot fell asleep

Edited February 21, 2010 by Pizza the Hutt

[RDClip]

I don't know why anyone would be proud (let alone pay) to have Mark Hamil in anything. He's a guy that got incredibly lucky to be cast in Star Wars, but has done nothing since except star in a bunch of terrible B movies and do some voice work (which people only really remember the Joker and Green Goblin) I really feel sorry for actor's like this and the poor fans that idolize them.

Funny thing is that his character in SC was a complete throwaway character that served no purpose other than to die. And they probably paid him more than they did for any other actor in the cast.

[Keith]

I don't know why anyone would be proud (let alone pay) to have Mark Hamil in anything. He's a guy that got incredibly lucky to be cast in Star Wars, but has done nothing since except star in a bunch of terrible B movies and do some voice work (which people only really remember the Joker and Green Goblin) I really feel sorry for actor's like this and the poor fans that idolize them.

Funny thing is that his character in SC was a complete throwaway character that served no purpose other than to die. And they probably paid him more than they did for any other actor in the cast.

To be fair, he made an awesome Joker.

[VFTF1]

Re: Mark Hamil:

You know... the thing is - his role in Star Wars is enough - it was enough. All else can be forgiven. I even agree that his acting in Star Wars was "poor" -- but...whose wasn't? I mean, actors like Harrison Ford and Obi Wan Guy had to tone it down to fit into the movie. ..

I dunno - I don't think Mark's fame is undeserved - and even in his capacity as a B movie actor - there's a reason to be sentimental for him. I'm a big Mark Hammil fan and genrally tend to be open to watching movies with him in them - just to see him, and even if he does a "bad" job - he does a Mark Hamil job - and that's enough.

I regret him having a part in Shadow Chronicles because I think that people should think twice about taking part in HG projects - but on the other hand, it's just another piece of Americana/arcane reference... Fine...

It's like Mari Ijima voicing Minmey in HG's dubs...

You can hate the company - but that doesn't mean that their janitor is Satan - and it certainly doesn't mean Mark or Marii are evil. They are just making a buck the only way they can. Fine.

All this just to say that I will never complain about Mark Hamil's acting because I don't expect MORE from him than what we got in Star Wars.

However - I do think sometimes that HE had certain delusions about his skills. I remember watching an interview with Mark and Harisson Ford. The lady interviewing them was asking about the (then) upcoming Empire Strikes Back - what would happen to the heros Luke and Han - and one of the big questions was "who would end up being with Lea."

I remember in the interview Harrison Ford was very VERY humble about his role in the films and very demure about himself as an actor. He was certainly not enthusiastic, but he WAS professional and measured.

Mark Hammil on the other hand was like "I was contracted to do three films, I was made very well, I am set for life, I am just that good, I am the best, My character will have an epic moment in the upcoming film, I am the main attraction, I am a star, I am the most popular man in the universe" ...

It was funny watching it in retrospect because maybe at that point and time Mark did imagine that Star Wars was the begining of his decades spanning career track that would make him one of Holywoood's biggest CONSTANT names - names that keep getting noted for the films they do.

Every actor has this phase - I remember when Brad Pitt was "popular" ... now Brad Pitt is actually a GOOD actor. Not necessarily always at the top of the charts - but certainly he keeps popping up in lots of good movies in various rolls.

If an actor can survive the phase of "famous fad" that comes with a popular popcorn flick roll and not get type cast into the "moment" - then they're set for life, because they will keep rolling up credits.

Mark apparently just couldn't do that - and all that was left to him was to be the Bold Print on B-movies that would get people to think "hey - let's watch this otherwise crap looking film, b ecause since Mark Hamill is in it - then MAYBE it'll have the Star Wars magic?"

And that's why people use him today - his name immediately makes people think "Mark Hamil did Star Wars - so maybe this movie will also be just as good?"

But to me - personally - that isn't reason to put him down. He's a B-actor, and Star Wars was a B movie that went A list and shocked the world.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

Side note,

I realized that it must be true what others has been saying this whole time about HG not able to create things without Macross elements because what Steve said in that vid "HG tried to license Mac7" means that HG has no ideas how to continue Robotech unless they dub another anime with the name Robotech.

On the one occasion I was able to have a full and frank discussion about the whole Macross rights/licensing issue with Tommy Yune during my tenure on Robotech.com, he never alluded to Harmony Gold having wanted to incorporate subsequently licensed Macross shows into Robotech... so I'm not entirely sure where this business about HG wanting to incorporate Macross 7 into Robotech is coming from. What I gleaned from the conversation was that after Harmony Gold obtained the trademark on the name "Macross" to keep Macross confined to Japan and the dust had started to settle in the whole Big West v. Tatsunoko thing, Harmony Gold approached Big West and offered to work with them on a "mutually beneficial" (parasitic) licensing arrangement to bring Macross to the rest of the world. Understandably, Big West told them they weren't interested.

While Tommy tried to tart it up to make it sound more amicable than what it really was, what the "mutually beneficial" arrangement boils down to once you remove the flowery language is "yeah, we'll let to distribute Macross in the Americas... but only if we get a piece of the action". Basically, Harmony Gold wanted to sit back and continue to collect royalties for use of the name while Big West and the regional distributors bore all the costs and did all the actual work.

Either that is made up or HG has no shame considering how HG is trying to hurt the Macross franchise.

Well... the whole "HG wants to incorporate Macross 7 into RT" is unsubstantiated, but they are pretty bloody shameless as my talk with Tommy revealed.

On a semi-related matter... new information has come to light about the whole UEG cease & desist letter thing... it looks like, for once, Harmony Gold might be getting an unduly bad rap for their actions. Word is that while UEG didn't want to exploit Robotech Genesis for profit directly, they did want to use it as a springboard to promote their own original works for potential commercial exploitation. It also seems that when Harmony Gold attempted to discuss the situation with them, they made some rather unreasonable demands... including that they be allowed to retain full ownership of, and creative control over, their redesigned Southern Cross and Mospeada mecha if Harmony Gold endorsed their work, a promise Harmony Gold couldn't make because they don't really own those designs themselves, Tatsunoko does.

As more facts emerge, it's looking less and less like "big, bad Harmony Gold bullies up small, defenseless fan-film team into quitting their own project" and more like "small fan-film team with a tenuous grip on reality tries to exploit someone else's intellectual property to promote their own products and plays the victim when the rights holder tells them they're not allowed to do that".

Funny thing is that his character in SC was a complete throwaway character that served no purpose other than to die. And they probably paid him more than they did for any other actor in the cast.

Well c'mon... isn't it obvious that Mark Hamill and Chase Masterson were only included to try and draw the attention of the Star Wars and Star Trek fans?

[Uxi]

O What I gleaned from the conversation was that after Harmony Gold obtained the trademark on the name "Macross" to keep Macross confined to Japan and the dust had started to settle in the whole Big West v. Tatsunoko thing, Harmony Gold approached Big West and offered to work with them on a "mutually beneficial" (parasitic) licensing arrangement to bring Macross to the rest of the world. Understandably, Big West told them they weren't interested.

That's where I actually don't think it's understandable. I could see Kawamori and Studio Nue being bent about it, but still think that's where business sense should separate itself from artistic/creative cliches. They should be content with whatever paltry revenues they're getting through the gray market compared to a hefty/majority percentage of profit x from a legitimate and fully supported international distribution?

While Tommy tried to tart it up to make it sound more amicable than what it really was, what the "mutually beneficial" arrangement boils down to once you remove the flowery language is "yeah, we'll let to distribute Macross in the Americas... but only if we get a piece of the action". Basically, Harmony Gold wanted to sit back and continue to collect royalties for use of the name while Big West and the regional distributors bore all the costs and did all the actual work.

Barring them getting the American rights through legal means, they're leaving money on the table. Their toys could be distributed through Diamond to comic shops throughout the US, if not Toys R Us, and the like. DVDs and Blu-rays in Best Buy, TRU, and Wal-mart, etc.

Unless there's a plan for legal action or less adversarial means of getting those rights, the choice is to leave that money on the table. Given it's niche status, I imagine both of those options would have a rather low cost/benefit ratio... What could HG want? 20? 50%? Even 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's where I actually don't think it's understandable. I could see Kawamori and Studio Nue being bent about it, but still think that's where business sense should separate itself from artistic/creative cliches. They should be content with whatever paltry revenues they're getting through the gray market compared to a hefty/majority percentage of profit x from a legitimate and fully supported international distribution?

Okay... I think we might have to diagnose you with a terminal case of optimist's syndrome. In this case, you're really REALLY overestimating the potential profits from a stateside release of Macross. It would be one thing if we had a huge demand for anime here in America, but we don't... it's a niche market. The difference between what they'd make just on the "gray market" and what they could earn in a legitimate release isn't nearly big enough to be an incentive to work with Harmony Gold... a company that, at the time, was doing everything in its power to screw them over and to profit unfairly from their work (and still is, for that matter). Why work with a jackass with a bad backstabbing habit or contest the trademark that would otherwise force you to work with them if the return on investment isn't worth it by a long shot? No company is in business to lose money. (except maybe AIG, but they're bellends)

Barring them getting the American rights through legal means, they're leaving money on the table. Their toys could be distributed through Diamond to comic shops throughout the US, if not Toys R Us, and the like. DVDs and Blu-rays in Best Buy, TRU, and Wal-mart, etc.

Again, a niche market... the return on investment just isn't worth it, especially not if an adversarial company that's done its best to undermine you profits from it as well.

Unless there's a plan for legal action or less adversarial means of getting those rights, the choice is to leave that money on the table. Given it's niche status, I imagine both of those options would have a rather low cost/benefit ratio... What could HG want? 20? 50%? Even 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Unless the 100% of nothing is preferable to a contract with unfavorable terms and a return on investment that could best be described as minuscule compared to what they're already making in the home market. Would you enter into a business arrangement with a man who steals your car every morning to drive himself to work if he promised to use it to start a taxi business and offered you $.50 on the dollar?

(If you answered "yes", I have some seafront property in Kansas you might be interested in...)

Edited February 21, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

Okay... I think we might have to diagnose you with a terminal case of optimist's syndrome. In this case, you're really REALLY overestimating the potential profits from a stateside release of Macross. It would be one thing if we had a huge demand for anime here in America, but we don't... it's a niche market. The difference between what they'd make just on the "gray market" and what they could earn in a legitimate release isn't nearly big enough to be an incentive to work with Harmony Gold... a company that, at the time, was doing everything in its power to screw them over and to profit unfairly from their work (and still is, for that matter). Why work with a jackass with a bad backstabbing habit or contest the trademark that would otherwise force you to work with them if the return on investment isn't worth it by a long shot? No company is in business to lose money. (except maybe AIG, but they're bellends)

Not just the anime itself, but the merchandising on everything from the stupid little figs and kids toys to the "real" toys like Yamato, etc to getting a show on Cartoon Network (anything outside of adult swim would require a dub, probably), to the video game releases that we never get over here because of this petty bickering. It's most definitely niche, but it all adds up.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not just the anime itself, but the merchandising on everything from the stupid little figs and kids toys to the "real" toys like Yamato, etc to getting a show on Cartoon Network (anything outside of adult swim would require a dub, probably), to the video game releases that we never get over here because of this petty bickering. It's most definitely niche, but it all adds up.

Oh joy... another bunch of assumptions that really don't work out.

Really, in order for the merchandising to take off, Macross would have to already be established and popular. In the final analysis, anime merchandise itself is a niche market and only has broad appeal for the most kid-friendly shows like Pokemon, Naruto, etc. With all the occasional gory death and sexual innuendo, Macross is definitely not "little kid-accessible" like Transformers Animated and its ilk, where nobody ever dies or gets seriously hurt, and any romance is confined to "she's my friend, but girls are still icky". Like pretty much every other anime targeted to teens in America, Macross isn't going to move much merchandise outside of the collector's market unless there's a radical shift in viewer demographics. Widespread merchandising just isn't in the American anime distribution business model, and for good reason... there's not enough interest to sustain it.

Even in a niche market, the merchandising does add up... but it doesn't add to much. In our case, it's likely that it just doesn't add up to enough to get Big West interested in working with a company that's been doing its level best to screw them over for the better part of a decade.

[Uxi]

lol if I'm a terminal optimist, you're a terminal pessimist. It's ok, it's a bright and sunny day, Debbie Downer.

If you were paying attention, I mentioned RT adaptations where they would presumably dumb them down like they did Macross and Mospeada, especially, so they could get their saturday morning slot in syndication on KTLA, but doubt you're any more optimistic on that.

[Seto Kaiba]

lol if I'm a terminal optimist, you're a terminal pessimist. It's ok, it's a bright and sunny day, Debbie Downer.

Not a pessimist, a realist. I have realistic expectations based on observation of the industry instead of rose-tinted fantasies of a perfect world. Though one could argue that pessimism has a great many virtues... pessimists have the benefit of always anticipating the worst, so on those rare occasions when the worst happens they get to be smug and say "I told you so", and on every other occasion they get to be pleasantly surprised. I expect it's much more liberating than being in a state of near-constant disappointment as an optimist.

If you were paying attention, I mentioned RT adaptations where they would presumably dumb them down like they did Macross and Mospeada, especially, so they could get their saturday morning slot in syndication on KTLA, but doubt you're any more optimistic on that.

And you find this a desirable outcome why? I'd like to think we've moved past the point in the anime industry where we need to butcher mature shows to "Americanize" them and make them accessible to the same target demographic as Transformers Animated. If we're going to make a Macekre of Macross, why not just bring the rest over as Robotech 7, Robotech Zero, and Robotech Frontier instead?

[Uxi]

Not a pessimist, a realist. I have realistic expectations based on observation of the industry instead of rose-tinted fantasies of a perfect world. Though one could argue that pessimism has a great many virtues... pessimists have the benefit of always anticipating the worst, so on those rare occasions when the worst happens they get to be smug and say "I told you so", and on every other occasion they get to be pleasantly surprised. I expect it's much more liberating than being in a state of near-constant disappointment as an optimist.

I'm rarely disappointed, but maybe your evaluation of me as an optimist is misplaced. Just because I think that a sensible solution would be for BW and SN to suck it up and stop being butthurt just to get their product to an available market for it doesn't mean I think HG wouldnt' or couldn't bork up.

And you find this a desirable outcome why? I'd like to think we've moved past the point in the anime industry where we need to butcher mature shows to "Americanize" them and make them accessible to the same target demographic as Transformers Animated. If we're going to make a Macekre of Macross, why not just bring the rest over as Robotech 7, Robotech Zero, and Robotech Frontier instead?

For starters, so I can get Yamato and Bandai Macross toys at more reasonable prices, so I can get a US version of Macross Ultimate Frontier with english or at least engrish subtitles and controls/menus, US region PS2 version of the DYRL game, etc etc. I already said I think there's a spot for Robotech Seven and Robotech Frontier... if they can facilitate that by putting in a Reba-West version of Basara and Fire Bomber, out there, so be it. I already have torrents of the originals... and anyone interested can easily obtain them, as well already. The merchandising though the gray market pays a tax because of the corporate shenanigans. From that perspective, Big West is as much the problem as HG. Both of them are faceless corporations who aren't trying to maximize the value of my greenbacks, so I don't see the benefit of partisanship to either side in their spat over their poorly written contracts filtered through the vagueries of international IP law. I don't care how they come to a final solution... makes no difference to me whether BW and HG shake hands nicely or one of them ends up grabbing their ankles.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just because I think that a sensible solution would be for BW and SN to suck it up and stop being butthurt just to get their product to an available market for it doesn't mean I think HG wouldnt' or couldn't bork up.

No, but I can only define interpreting Big West and Studio Nue's unwillingness to sacrifice their business ethics, common sense, and profits to enter into a distribution agreement with an untrustworthy partner who practically defines sleazy for insignificant or nonexistent gain as "being butthurt" as monumental ignorance. It might just be the businessman in me, but I can't see anything you've proposed as being even remotely sound or practical for either company. It's a series of complaints and suggestions based on willful ignorance of the anime distribution industry's business model and the current state of the industry itself.

After reading the rest of your post, I'm starting to understand why. In this particular scenario, you're the butthurt one. You don't care if there's a sound business care, or if Big West actually stands to gain anything from partnering with Dishonesty Gold, you're just mad that the current arrangement is mildly inconvenient for you. You don't give a toss so long as you can get your games and figures a little more cheaply.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

While Tommy tried to tart it up to make it sound more amicable than what it really was, what the "mutually beneficial" arrangement boils down to once you remove the flowery language is "yeah, we'll let to distribute Macross in the Americas... but only if we get a piece of the action". Basically, Harmony Gold wanted to sit back and continue to collect royalties for use of the name while Big West and the regional distributors bore all the costs and did all the actual work.

Yeah, that would sound right. That would also force HG to give up the Macross trademark, which they probably don't want to give up.

...As more facts emerge, it's looking less and less like "big, bad Harmony Gold bullies up small, defenseless fan-film team into quitting their own project" and more like "small fan-film team with a tenuous grip on reality tries to exploit someone else's intellectual property to promote their own products and plays the victim when the rights holder tells them they're not allowed to do that".

Now, you know you're gonna need a link/source with that info.

If true.... talk about fan over-reaching. If they just kept to keeping all their works as non-commercial, that probably would have spared them some headaches.

I think people should understand that Macross and anime in general is not terribly marketable and hence, not terribly profitable. Companies need to make a return investment and I just don't see that happening right now. And as we've stated many times, Macross probably isn't as profitable as people think it is.

[Gubaba]

I'm rarely disappointed, but maybe your evaluation of me as an optimist is misplaced. Just because I think that a sensible solution would be for BW and SN to suck it up and stop being butthurt just to get their product to an available market for it doesn't mean I think HG wouldnt' or couldn't bork up.

hey, I've got a great business deal for you. You give me 20% of your earnings per month, and I'll let you use the name "Uxi" worldwide. Sounds good, right?

No?

C'mon, suck it up and stop being butthurt! It's only 20% of your earnings!

[Uxi]

No, but I can only define interpreting Big West and Studio Nue's unwillingness to sacrifice their business ethics, common sense, and profits to enter into a distribution agreement with an untrustworthy partner who practically defines sleazy for insignificant or nonexistent gain as "being butthurt" as monumental ignorance. It might just be the businessman in me, but I can't see anything you've proposed as being even remotely sound or practical for either company.

I think you're letting the disgruntled robotech.com exile in you override any skills and knowledge you might have as a businessman. "Let go of your hate."

Business ethics? Maybe. As long as it's business, and not personal (your framing of BW pov sounds more like the latter than the former).

Profits? They're getting a whole lot of nothing right now. Probably 99.9% of the video obtained internationally is advertising free without a single yen to them, either torrent or HK bootleg. Which of us here not knowing Japanese wouldn't be happy to trade the 720p fansubbed MKV of Macross Frontier for a 1080p Blu-ray with proper subs? Moving beyond the niche that is Macross World or even the slightly larger anime on the interwebs, there has to be some percentage, however small, that would buy/rent Blu-ray and DVD from their local shop in Europe or the Americas. That's 100% missed profit.

I used myself as allegory, though you apparently missed the implication. Right now the only thing they see is the tiny slice they'd get from the dozen Yamato or Bandai valks most of us here own? It's pennies on the dollar to make a Blu-ray. It's even less than that for DVD. Distribution adds a bit, but the same holds for video that retail for significantly more. Reduce the pricing on the toys and merchandising and sales at least to the point of the natural MSRP, though it should be lower given the proportionally gigantic market base in Europe and the Americas. So even if anime there doesn't have the same status as in Japan, being either more of a "kid thing" or more towards the sci-fi genre (if you're feeling generous), toys and videos on the shelves in the huge populations in Europe and Americas would lead to at least some casual blind buys, as well as decent sales to their more core anime consuming market segments, that there is zero chance of reaching right now. Same for games on the shelves in Game Stop, Best Buy, or Fry's would have at least a tiny potential for a non-anime consumer to see.

Where's the common sense? If HG is pure shady and duplicitous then they make sure their legal team gets a better contract than the one they did with Tatsunoko.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Uxi

[Uxi]

hey, I've got a great business deal for you. You give me 20% of your earnings per month, and I'll let you use the name "Uxi" worldwide. Sounds good, right?

No?

C'mon, suck it up and stop being butthurt! It's only 20% of your earnings!

I know I was a sucker for not having a better deal with Graham, but hey, it's hard to get the mushroom cloud back into the metal cannister!

Am I getting nothing at all for the usage of my handle right now? Will it let me still get 80% additional revenue without any more R&D to gain access to a market I have no chance of getting in otherwise? Given our previous history, I'll make sure my lawyers dot all the i's and cross all the t's on the deal, but if it all checks out, then yeah, let's do business.

[jenius]

I think you're wrong Uxi. While they certainly would see some improved sales stateside, the vast majority of people who would buy Macross toys, especially the bread and butter of every company: the people who buy multiple toys and repaints, are already buying and importing from Japan. BW is not sharing any of those profits with anyone so why start splitting them up? They could easily add English subtitles to BluRay Frontier releases and accomplish the same sort of feat whereby English speakers can import them and BW gets 100% of its licensing fee.

At this point, Macross is too strong of a name for Robotech to support. If Macross were going to be released here it'd be far more sensible for HG to release it as MACROSS Frontier and not bother with the shoe-horning. Why try to bring Robotech back after 24 years of failure when you can clear the table and start all over again.

[VFTF1]

I think the thing is that nobody in Japan gives a flip about whether Macross Frontier will be legally available for the barbarians to consume (aka us). From what I know, and my humble experience, and what little birdies have whispered in my ear, Japanese anime companies, be they the toy makers, or the actual anime makers and their respective sponsors - basically "the Japanese anime industry" don't give a crap about anywhere but Japan. All other markets are secondary.

And if you think about it, it's pretty much the same in the USA. Hasbro makes GI Joe and Transformers primarily for the American market - international sales are big, but ultimately secondary in terms of the marketing strategy.

And this is no surprise. Anime has a strong tradition in Japan. It has no such tradition in Europe. The French seem to love certain anime and are generally fond of it, but beyond France - most of the rest of Europe isn't.

At least not to the level where it would seem normal for them to build 1:1 Gundam statues in the middle of their cities.

Even most of the legally distributed anime DVDs are usually hard to come by. You need to go to specialty shops or hunt on line. If you find them in a video store, they're usually in disarray and incomplete.

The Japanese anime industry is never going to get serious about marketing their stuff to a global audience because the demand isn't there, and it's hard to do with marketing what 50 years of organic culture have done - that is to say... it's the same with "classic Americana" stuff. People who didn't grow up with American pop culture won't adopt it on the basis of a quarterly marketing campaign. Seriously. At least not the same extent as Americans.

You just have to accept that not all markets are the same and that diversity is here to stay - and just because a strategy works in one place, it doesn't work everywhere.

Of course there will always be niche markets and niche demand - but it's never going to be big enough to make sense to bring it over the way that people like me or some on this baord would imagine.

Macross is just a special case where it's made even harder than usually due to the legal problems.

Pete

[Uxi]

I think you're wrong Uxi. While they certainly would see some improved sales stateside, the vast majority of people who would buy Macross toys, especially the bread and butter of every company: the people who buy multiple toys and repaints, are already buying and importing from Japan. BW is not sharing any of those profits with anyone so why start splitting them up? They could easily add English subtitles to BluRay Frontier releases and accomplish the same sort of feat whereby English speakers can import them and BW gets 100% of its licensing fee.

Sure, being Region A sure helps and if/when they do set of the whole series and put some good English subtitles on it, I'd probably buy it. The only Macross I've bought were the Legacy Robotech set (just the macross saga, didn't buy SC or New Generation or whatever they called Mospeada), and I bought the Animeigo set for $40 also from HG. I doubt BW has seen any of that. DYRL and my first M7/MD7 set were HK bootlegs, both of which, (along with Plus) since replaced by remastered torrents with fansubs.

How many valks do you own? How many would you own if they were say... 10-15% cheaper? 25%? I have a dozen Yamato valks and 1 Bandai VF-27 en route (and a bootleg Fire and Blazer my gf got me a few years ago ). I'd easily have a half dozen more if they were more reasonably priced, wouldn't you?

International fans have almost always usually paid MSRP plus finders fee plus EMS. Now that ami ami is here, hopefully HLJ sales get more frequent, but online is still usually cheaper than getting toys from local vendors. Frank & Sons here in Southern California has great selection and you get instant satisfaction but pricing is usually more comparable with HLJ+shiping than Ami Ami, unfortunately, though you do get to barter a bit. For example, I pulled a great deal for $100 for a CF SV-51 but the one vendor who still has an Armored Ozma wants $280 for it. :eek:

At this point, Macross is too strong of a name for Robotech to support. If Macross were going to be released here it'd be far more sensible for HG to release it as MACROSS Frontier and not bother with the shoe-horning. Why try to bring Robotech back after 24 years of failure when you can clear the table and start all over again.

Sure, whatever get its over here. I just don't see it happening without legal fights that would probably be Pyhrric, which is why we haven't seen it yet.

[jenius]

I think what we've seen kinda tells you whether or not you're right UXI... if you were right these companies almost certainly would have worked out some sort of deal. Companies have accountants, they review their options. BW/SN thinks HG should go fly a kite... I'm pretty sure they came to that conclusion after weighing their options. I think you also have to consider that HG brings almost nothing to the table besides the use of a name that BW/SN feels is their's anyway. It's not like HG has a rich distribution network, huge name brand recognition or loyalty, or any of the things you would want if you were sharing proceeds with someone. At best they could use Toynami's distribution network and would anyone really pay money for that? I'll bet you that'd be one more fee you could include in shipping things here. In the end, BW/SN knows it's better for them to let HG hang themselves with terrible merchandise and failing products... heck, that might be one more reason they choose not to do it. While Macross has had tons of success the name Robotech hasn't been relevant since 1985... why breathe life into a company who has done nothing but dick you when you can sit back and watch them die. As for "how many more valks would you own" even if I were to say "SIX more" when you think of the hundreds I have bought that BW collected 100% of the proceeds on it tells you BW is playing it right.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Rant about Mark Hamil

Makes me wonder if you ever watched the English Dub of Batman the animated series.

Anyway Hamil is one of the few actors that knows he doesn't have the looks he once had, realizes it and then capitalizes on his other talents.