HG and Robotech Debates

[Keith]

And it's the original Japanese with subtitles?

If so - I would be interested in making a purchase I'm kind of tired of loosing my anime to hardrive deaths and having to redownload...

But will it play on my laptop? I would imagine that the DVD player on my laptop is multiregion...why wouldn't it be...?

how do I check?

oh...I know...I'll throw in one of the Japanese BW DVDs I still have lying around...

Pete

http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/catalogmg...s/desc/asc/50/1

They do international orders, and have the individual disc's still in stock for around 9.99 each. Mind you these are the ADV disc's, so they have inferior audio (AnimEigo went back to Big West for clean audio reels), and aren't progressive scan like the AnimEigo disc's.

Although If there's somewhone here with an AnimEigo set handy (mines in stowage currently), and a DVD burner, AnimEigo "forgot" to put write protection on them, which means they're easily copyable, and single layer disc's.

If you decide to go with those ADV disc's, do yourself a favor and also pick up Mospeada (only $13), and all 4 volumes of Votoms.

[Jasonc]

So Tommy Yune is a sleeper agent for Shōji Kawamori and/or Big West. Slowly destroying robotech and making new Macross fans

I wouldn't go that far, but he is a self proclaimed Macross fan. I don't think he's choosing sides, and rightly so. He's a fan of one, and works for the other, and I would assume he's a fan of that, too. That's why I found it funny when it was brought up that Tommy was nearly lynched for wanting to take "protoculture" from the first 2 series. Whether or not he wants to be a fan of both sides doesn't matter, the Robotech fans will make sure he stays a Robotech fan, or probably die trying.

[Einherjar]

I wouldn't go that far, but he is a self proclaimed Macross fan. I don't think he's choosing sides, and rightly so. He's a fan of one, and works for the other, and I would assume he's a fan of that, too. That's why I found it funny when it was brought up that Tommy was nearly lynched for wanting to take "protoculture" from the first 2 series. Whether or not he wants to be a fan of both sides doesn't matter, the Robotech fans will make sure he stays a Robotech fan, or probably die trying.

Again, a poor career choice if somewhere down the road he wanted to do something positive with that love for either series before. Not everyone can play devil's advocate with a concept, no matter what position you've been given. At best, he's now a scapegoat for what's wrong with the franchise and replaceable.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Einherjar

[MastaEgg]

Here's my predictions for Robotech next year

Absolutely Nothing

[Jasonc]

Again, a poor career choice if somewhere down the road he wanted to something positive with that love for either series before. Not everyone can play devil's advocate with a concept, no matter what position you've been given. At best, he's now a scapegoat for what's wrong with the franchise and replaceable.

Yeah, there's no doubting that. Even moreso, not only has he become a scapegoat, but also part of the problem. Well, it's been the entire staff. But, that is simply how it goes for that camp.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I wouldn't go that far, but he is a self proclaimed Macross fan. I don't think he's choosing sides, and rightly so. He's a fan of one, and works for the other, and I would assume he's a fan of that, too. That's why I found it funny when it was brought up that Tommy was nearly lynched for wanting to take "protoculture" from the first 2 series. Whether or not he wants to be a fan of both sides doesn't matter, the Robotech fans will make sure he stays a Robotech fan, or probably die trying.

That is what he was accused of when he announced that the first two generations of RT mecha don't run on protoculture, yeah.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Manchurian candidate. And he's just waiting for the words to be spoken.

Not sure where you are, but hereabouts the mecha anime demographic seems to fall mainly around the 17-21 set, and I tend to end up one of the oldest mecha nuts around, and I'm not even halfway through my 20s yet.

At least there is a demographic where your at.

[taksraven]

Here's my predictions for Robotech next year

Absolutely Nothing

Can you make a similarly accurate prediction for Robotech fandon??

Taksraven

[Robelwell202]

Can you make a similarly accurate prediction for Robotech fandon??

Taksraven

I think I might be able to.

Fandom type 1: Continue to follow every word and utterance that comes out of HG, and praise it as if it were the Holy Word of the Almighty itself. No matter what logic is applied to these statements, the Type-1 fan will continue to follow blindly, blissfully, and completely unaware of just how badly RT has been and always will be handled.

Fandom type 2: A constant trickle of disgurntled fans that see the unbridled truth of things, such as HG's complete buffoonery, the habits of Type-1 fans (See above), and the continued efforts of fansite moderators to silence the 'heretics' of the RT fandom

Fandom type 3: Complete abandonment of RT as a whole, and the embrace of other anime, such as Gundam, Macross, and the like.

Fandom type 4: (Fan-Art/Fic Producers): A combination of Type-3 and -4, but who still carry the show in some fond, nostalgic light, and who, for thier own reasons, continue with thier endeavors. (Disclaimer: I'm part of this group.)

There may be others, but this is all I can think of at the moment.

[Moly_Sigang]

Here's my predictions for Robotech next year

Absolutely Nothing

No you're wrong, HG is doing something for teh Robotech 25th Anniversary. That is, attending cons to over-hype Robotech like the same thing they did last year. And the year before that. And the year before that..

[RedWolf]

No you're wrong, HG is doing something for teh Robotech 25th Anniversary. That is, attending cons to over-hype Robotech like the same thing they did last year. And the year before that. And the year before that..

This has happened before and will happen again... and again and again... Until the cycle is broken by HG's bankruptcy.

[Jasonc]

Happy New Year guys. Just got back from work, and talk about busy. Anyways, hope this thread goes another year with fun filled comments, crazy little drama spurts to put down and out, and some insight into the subject. Been fun, and looking forward to 2010 being even better.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's why I found it funny when it was brought up that Tommy was nearly lynched for wanting to take "protoculture" from the first 2 series. Whether or not he wants to be a fan of both sides doesn't matter, the Robotech fans will make sure he stays a Robotech fan, or probably die trying.

Under normal circumstances, when an entertainment franchise has been out there long enough for fans to start making their way onto the creative staff, that's generally a sign that everything's about to go to hell. At that point, you end up in a nightmare scenario and one of two things generally happens... either the new creative staff is so eager to show their "respect" for their beloved franchise that any evolution is stifled to preserve the status quo, or they decide the parts of the story that've already been established are too confining and broom the some or all of it to make way for their own take on things. In either event, what you end up with is generally distinguishable from fan fiction only by whether or not the author received a paycheck for his crime against the cinematic arts.

When the powers that be at Harmony Gold finally ran out of patience with Carl Macek's uncanny ability to screw up after promising the moon, they brought in Tommy Yune and the rest of the new Robotech staff, most of whom are fans. Clearly Tommy felt that going one way or the other was for pussies, and opted to stagnate the hell out of the narrative with one hand while removing a million tiny things from the continuity with the other... all done with the gleeful abandon of a preschooler fingerpainting for the first time. The end result was that the already-disorganized franchise was kept lurching along with a continuation so nonsensical and so dependent on retcon that it probably fits into that same category of fanfic hell that [ulr=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/MyImmortal?from=Main.MyImmortal]My Immorta[/u] does. In his continuity reboot, Tommy appealed to just about every major fanboy cliche... turning Roy Fokker into a borderline superhero who singlehandedly saves the day, making the apeface commanders from the Masters Saga out to be enemy infiltrators plotting seditious moves, and trying to exonerate their big hero because he ordered scorched Earth (literally) tactics.

One could argue that many of Robotech's problems stem from its abysmal lack of organization. The show's "creators" couldn't get their act together and figure out much of anything, so they've relied on the fans to do it for them time and time again, and as a result incorrect assumptions made by the fans spread and eventually become widely held beliefs (witness the protoculture fiasco) which in the minds of many fans become just as good as canon. So when someone in authority comes along and says "this is how it is", it's odds-on that someone in the fanbase'll pitch a fit and say "well you're not a real fan then, are you?". Never mind that what Tommy said didn't contract any official Robotech publication or the show itself, he still got accused of being a Macross fan trying to destroy Robotech from the inside because he ruled out one of the assumptions Robotech fans have made to impose an illusion of order on the terminally disorganized Robotech continuity.

[Wanzerfan]

This has happened before and will happen again... and again and again... Until the cycle is broken by HG's bankruptcy.

That will never happen, the next government bailout will see to that.

[taksraven]

Under normal circumstances, when an entertainment franchise has been out there long enough for fans to start making their way onto the creative staff, that's generally a sign that everything's about to go to hell. At that point, you end up in a nightmare scenario and one of two things generally happens... either the new creative staff is so eager to show their "respect" for their beloved franchise that any evolution is stifled to preserve the status quo, or they decide the parts of the story that've already been established are too confining and broom the some or all of it to make way for their own take on things. In either event, what you end up with is generally distinguishable from fan fiction only by whether or not the author received a paycheck for his crime against the cinematic arts.

I think that this is the brick wall that Star Trek crashed into in the 1990's. A lot of fans running the shows with continuity that ended up choking them. The last gasp effort when they realised pretty much all was lost was "Enterprise" and that turned out even worse because they ran into BIGGER continuity problems by having a prequel series and even then they did some really silly things (ie, lets have the Borg feature in one episode even though they don't belong in this series) FFS.

I've heard of even worse examples of fanboys being problematic in the real world. (And I'm not just picking on Trek here) I heard a story years ago that a lot of the staff at NASA were BIG trek fans and some were theorising that this was having a negative effect on the culture within the organisation. (It may be BS, but I thought it was worth noting)

Taksraven

[Dynaman]

I think that this is the brick wall that Star Trek crashed into in the 1990's. A lot of fans running the shows with continuity that ended up choking them. The last gasp effort when they realised pretty much all was lost was "Enterprise" and that turned out even worse because they ran into BIGGER continuity problems by having a prequel series and even then they did some really silly things (ie, lets have the Borg feature in one episode even though they don't belong in this series) FFS.

I've heard of even worse examples of fanboys being problematic in the real world. (And I'm not just picking on Trek here) I heard a story years ago that a lot of the staff at NASA were BIG trek fans and some were theorising that this was having a negative effect on the culture within the organisation. (It may be BS, but I thought it was worth noting)

Taksraven

Nah - fandom and reverence is not a hinderance, the new Dr. Who is proof of that. Incompetance is the problem. The biggest problem in continuing or expanding on an existing franchise is that there is something to compare against (something that was most likely loved the first time around). Most continuations, reboots, etc. bomb - but look at the track record of original stories and it is just as bad.

Ooops forgot to mention that I liked Enterprise, but your point is well taken about it being a good example of the problem, I would argue that Voyager was the worst of the lot though, all the preachiness of Star Trek with none of the fun.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Dynaman

[BeyondTheGrave]

Nah - fandom and reverence is not a hinderance, the new Dr. Who is proof of that. Incompetance is the problem. The biggest problem in continuing or expanding on an existing franchise is that there is something to compare against (something that was most likely loved the first time around). Most continuations, reboots, etc. bomb - but look at the track record of original stories and it is just as bad.

Ooops forgot to mention that I liked Enterprise, but your point is well taken about it being a good example of the problem, I would argue that Voyager was the worst of the lot though, all the preachiness of Star Trek with none of the fun.

Enterprise did a good job of filling in the history of the universe the creation of and application of various technologies and characters. It seems like they tried too hard use elements from the other series. i DS9 had too much overacting and story was like WWII in outer space.

[Robelwell202]

If I may be so bold, allow me to offer a counter-theory.

When the new 'powers-that-be' took over in the Star Trek world, they took the subtle aire of PC present in the original series and ran with it, letting it completely saturate the plots of DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise.

I'm sorry to say, it all began with ST:TNG, which is somewhat sad, for me. That's when it started turning foul for me. I just wanted good Star Trek-type SciFi, not a manufactured lesson in some type of tollerance or other...

I don;t know how many other people would carry this view, but I do know a few in RL, so I know I'm not just talking out of my ass on this.

-----

In reference to RT, it seems that the lunatics have taken over the assylum, in all sense of the word. Now, while I don't see anything as all-pervasive as the above-mentioned PC-agenda that infected Trek, I do see a trend of mistakes, and another trend of badly done propoganda to try and cover those mistakes.

Fruthermore, the folks at HG seem to try and force RT into some kind of current relevance, and in fact, refuse to accept the fact that it has none.

Oh well...

[Einherjar]

Happy New Year guys. Just got back from work, and talk about busy. Anyways, hope this thread goes another year with fun filled comments, crazy little drama spurts to put down and out, and some insight into the subject. Been fun, and looking forward to 2010 being even better.

We're coming up towards year 4 of the Robotech: Are We Done Yet Chronicles.

[taksraven]

If HG does make most of its money out of real estate, why bother with the RT animation arm. Is it a vanity thing, or a tax dodge?

Taksraven

[azrael]

If HG does make most of its money out of real estate, why bother with the RT animation arm. Is it a vanity thing, or a tax dodge?

Actually, it's 3rd-party international licensing and real estate. The only reason to keep Robotech going is to uphold their trademark. If they don't, they lose it.

[taksraven]

The only reason to keep Robotech going is to uphold their trademark. If they don't, they lose it.

But they don't even keep RT going, production-wise at least, or is that dodgy website enough for them to keep the trademark?

Taksraven

[azrael]

But they don't even keep RT going, production-wise at least, or is that dodgy website enough for them to keep the trademark?

They just have to put out a product every years (oh look "Stealth Veritech"), or license out something. Oh wait, that's the "Macross"-trademark side of things. Since they own the copyright to RT, they don't really have to do a thing. But since RT is made up of that infamous trio-of-shows, and they need to, in some respect, maintain the trademark so they just need to put out a product or something to uphold it.

[VFTF1]

Yeah - like when Hasbro slapped the names Megatron, Soundwave and Optimus Prime on those little crappy race cars that had two points of articulation and three moving parts for transformatin....

Pete

[taksraven]

Yeah - like when Hasbro slapped the names Megatron, Soundwave and Optimus Prime on those little crappy race cars that had two points of articulation and three moving parts for transformatin....

Pete

Not an RT question, but if Shoji Kawamori did create the Optimus Prime design as a diaclone toy, would he get any money or royalties for the use of the design subsequently in Transformers, or are those rights long gone??

Taksraven

[waters7]

Not an RT question, but if Shoji Kawamori did create the Optimus Prime design as a diaclone toy, would he get any money or royalties for the use of the design subsequently in Transformers, or are those rights long gone??

Taksraven

Hello,

Kawamori's work on the diaclone toy line is considered as "work made for hire" under copyright law.

In other words, since Studio Nue (and by extension, Kawamori) was comissioned by Takara to "create" some of the dioclone designs, any royalties derivated from the copyright will go directly to Takara/Hasbro only.

I hope this helps

Edited January 3, 2010 by waters7

[Einherjar]

We're coming up towards year 4 of the Robotech: Are We Done Yet Chronicles.

Nice Photoshop, nay, GANGBUSTERS!!!

Edited January 3, 2010 by Einherjar

[Jasonc]

The logo is alright, but I dare say, it would speak more "Robotech" if there was a VF-1 Very-Tek (don't get the pitchforks out just yet) on the front. I know, it's part of the problem, I'm just saying, Macross has been the main staple of Robotech. It's where the main heroes come from. Just kinda brings the thought that they are trying to force the "New Gen" stuff, and it wasn't the most popular part. People still want Rick Hunter.

[Moly_Sigang]

Nice Photoshop, nay, GANGBUSTERS!!!

How about changing the word 'Years' to 'Anniversary' and you got yourself a good logo.

The logo is alright, but I dare say, it would speak more "Robotech" if there was a VF-1 Very-Tek (don't get the pitchforks out just yet) on the front. I know, it's part of the problem, I'm just saying, Macross has been the main staple of Robotech. It's where the main heroes come from. Just kinda brings the thought that they are trying to force the "New Gen" stuff, and it wasn't the most popular part. People still want Rick Hunter.

you mean like this?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[taksraven]

Nice Photoshop, nay, GANGBUSTERS!!!

Needs a few more things like a picture of Carl Macek, a HG logo and a few latin words to make it cool, maybe "Caveat Emptor"? :lol:

Taksraven

[Moly_Sigang]

Nice Photoshop, nay, GANGBUSTERS!!!

Ok i just got back from lurking RT.com, and it looks like that is HG's logo for Robotech's 25th Anniversary. I can see where they got some ideas for their 25th Anniversary logo. Now i'm not saying HG ripped off Macross' 25th Anniversary logo, but there's definitely some similarities. In Macross, it's a silhouette of a GERWALK'd Valkyrie at the center. In Robotech, it's a Guardian mode Alpha. Coincidence?

Also, i'm WTF'ing at Pizza's comments. He keeps mentioning that the stealth Veritech is a reference to Robotech: Do You Remember Love?.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Gubaba]

Ok i just got back from lurking RT.com, and it looks like that is HG's logo for Robotech's 25th Anniversary. I can see where they got some ideas for their 25th Anniversary logo. Now i'm not saying HG ripped off Macross' 25th Anniversary logo, but there's definitely some similarities. In Macross, it's a silhouette of a GERWALK'd Valkyrie at the center. In Robotech, it's a Guardian mode Alpha. Coincidence?

Also, i'm WTF'ing at Pizza's comments. He keeps mentioning that the stealth Veritech is a reference to Robotech: Do You Remember Love?.

You never saw Robotech: Do You Remember Love?

WAY better than Robotech: Love Live Alive and Robotech II: Lovers Again.

[hulagu]

I liked Robotech Frontier - The Young Lancer Chronicles better.

Or Robotech Zero - Prelude to the Legend of Zor.

Edited January 3, 2010 by hulagu

[Dio]

I'm just going to theorize that the hard-core (and thereby most entertaining) RT fans that are frequently referenced in this thread are probably more the result of a persecution complex than they are childish or dealing with attachment issues as posted earlier.

Recall, info resources weren't back then (during the RT original broadcast) what they are today... I didn't even realize Robotech was partly composed of the Macross series until sometime in the mid-90's, circa Macross Plus. Sure, I'd seen Macross II by then, but didn't really make the connection since I was just a teenager and didn't care too much. Macross Plus, some Protoculture Addicts magazines (oh how I miss those), and the Palladium RPG's with the "Japanimation Side Notes" were pretty much my first exposure to Macross as Macross.

The fans have got their series that they love, and at some point had to make a choice - when something you're passionate about is essentially exposed to you as a bastardization of something else, how do you process that sort of thing? Do you roll with it, do you try to deny it? Do you get defensive when someone else of differing opinion talks down to you about it?

It gets even more complicated and dramatic when it gets involved financially for HG, and some fans feel the need to support their source, not just their series anymore, because that source appears to be reaching out to them (via the RT.com site, conventions, etc). If I felt I could make a contribution to Transformers, I don't doubt that I would jump at the opportunity, even in the face of naysayers who might accuse Hasbro of blowing smoke at me. Fans who feel involved in the creative process (even if it's hopeless) are going to be much more vehement in their support and feelings of importance - just look at the disaster that was the Don Murphy forum for the first Transformers live-action movie, now the Transformers fandom seems to be factioned out with groups like "Geewunners" and "Michael Bay Kool-Aid Drinkers" (a primary reason why I have nearly left that fandom).

Honestly, if you're looking for a good way to deal with the extremist fans, the best thing you can do is just understand that they feel not just a fan's normal appreciation of a series, but they honestly feel like they're part of the creative process that is keeping it alive. Delusional as it may be, especially in light of the complete and total lack of anything coming from the franchise's source, they still live on the hope that, if they love it enough, it will give them something back in return. HG's sin in this is perpetuating that feeling among their fandom.

Just to throw in a moral to my long-winded rant - above all, just remember that civility can be much more powerful than confrontation if you want to open minds.

[Moly_Sigang]

You never saw Robotech: Do You Remember Love?

WAY better than Robotech: Love Live Alive and Robotech II: Lovers Again.

I liked Robotech Frontier - The Young Lancer Chronicles better.

Okay i'm only going to say this once: i like Robotech 7, even though Roy Hunter is kinda annoying sometime, and he's a bit of indecisive when it comes to Maia Sterling. Also, R7 has Max and Miria Sterling. 'nuff said.

BOMBA!

[Seto Kaiba]

Now i'm not saying HG ripped off Macross' 25th Anniversary logo, but there's definitely some similarities. In Macross, it's a silhouette of a GERWALK'd Valkyrie at the center. In Robotech, it's a Guardian mode Alpha. Coincidence?

As we ARE talking about Harmony Gold here, given their track record I'm thoroughly disinclined to believe that something so obviously similar to an existing Macross design was the product of mere coincidence. I find intentional imitation a far more likely explanation for the odd resemblance between the Macross 25th Anniversary logo and the one Tommy Yune recently created for Robotech.

Also, i'm WTF'ing at Pizza's comments. He keeps mentioning that the stealth Veritech is a reference to Robotech: Do You Remember Love?.

So he's finally come full circle and is back to pretending that Macross has no significance apart from being mutilated into part of Robotech.

The fans have got their series that they love, and at some point had to make a choice - when something you're passionate about is essentially exposed to you as a bastardization of something else, how do you process that sort of thing? Do you roll with it, do you try to deny it? Do you get defensive when someone else of differing opinion talks down to you about it?

[...]

Honestly, if you're looking for a good way to deal with the extremist fans, the best thing you can do is just understand that they feel not just a fan's normal appreciation of a series, but they honestly feel like they're part of the creative process that is keeping it alive. Delusional as it may be, especially in light of the complete and total lack of anything coming from the franchise's source, they still live on the hope that, if they love it enough, it will give them something back in return. HG's sin in this is perpetuating that feeling among their fandom.

To be frank, while your post is insightful and reiterates several excellent points, we're not really that concerned with finding a way to deal with the members of the Robotech lunatic fringe. I don't mean to be rude, but given my own experience and that of many others I can't help but think of it as painfully naive (or perhaps foolishly optimistic) to say that treating the extremist fans with a modicum of civility will get you anywhere. I don't know how much time you've spent among Robotech fans, but speaking as someone who's straddled the line between the Macross and Robotech fandoms for something like six years now I feel obligated to say that more often than not "killing them with kindness" doesn't work worth a damn.

Almost as a rule, the members of the Robotech lunatic fringe thrive on the hostility and conflict they so often go out of their way to provoke. They don't want informed, civil discussion and debate... they want the opportunity to shout down and insult anyone who has a different opinion than they do. Generally, they try to invalidate any criticism directed toward Robotech and deflect any dissenting opinions when discussing Robotech by branding the dissenter/critic "not a real fan" or a "Macross purist troll", or any of a host of other labels that they've been using in their periodic fandom witch hunts. When these people are allowed to get into a position of power at a fansite, like Robotech.com or RobotechX, the site immediately takes a nosedive once they start exploiting their authority to post their opinions and theories as fact and banning anyone who questions or contradicts them... as we've seen Maverick_LSC and MEMO1DOMINION do on both sites in question.

The worst examples are trolls like Pizza the Hutt and Doug Bendo, who are so desperate for attention and are possessed of an almost fanatical desire to defend Robotech from criticism and the harsh truth of its origins and standing in the anime industry that they seek out and attack just about anyone they see as a threat to the "true fans", meaning similarly immature, confrontational, borderline-delusional fans.