Is Anime insulting your intelligence?

[Noyhauser]

^ very few.

I can see where you're coming from and I do agree a bit but I think you're generalizing a bit too much. Yes, there are alot of pretty bland anime out there. Yes, not all anime are intelligent or has a specific theme to them. Alot of anime do have plot, just not always up there with the better stuff. Practically most of the anime out there do have decent character designs at least...

Anime (or anything else) don't exactly have to be intelligent or have a theme to be enjoyable really... Honestly, I want to know what anime have you seen from within this decade that made you come to this conclusion?

Alot... both subbed and raw too. I don;t mean to suggest that all I watch is highbrow either. Gurren Laggan is a enjoyable series partly because it treads over alot of cliched moments and makes a half serious half lighthearted series out of it.

The last ten animes I've watched in the last two months, including the stuff from before;

Future Boy Conan

Tactical Roar

Starship Troopers (1989 version)

Sky Crawlers

Hetalia Axis Powers

Gurren Lagann (1st movie)

Golgo13

Flag

Tytania

Touch

(I've got Viper's Creed coming up next)

So its a good mix, obviously there is a bit of a missmatch given I've got two epic 1980s series (Touch and Conan) up against some meh present offerings (Tactical Roar.)

[shiroikaze]

Actually, I meant for you to list some of the stuff you didn't like. I figured it be a long list but nevermind really...

[Ginrai]

Yeah, moe anime is selling sooooo well that the industry is collapsing both in Japan and abroad.

[wolfx]

Yeah, moe anime is selling sooooo well that the industry is collapsing both in Japan and abroad.

Yeap. The bubble burst. Mediocre cookie cutter moe is sure to die out.

At least we still get awesome moe like K-on. :3

[Bri]

I've heard that argument and I don't buy it, particularly since my interest in 1980s anime is more recent than my childhood memories. There are a whole range of reasons for the difference; the novelty of anime in this period (leading to greater experimentation) as well as the large wealth of japan. With a diminished economy there isn't the same demand, and production companies rely to a greater extent on formulas they know will sell.

All film industries go through this: I'm sure many french critics in the 1980s lamented how French cinema didn't match the artistic heights of the 1950s and 60s new wave. That doesn't mean New Wave wasn't a breakthrough in film making, just like the innovation of 1980s anime was greater than seen since.

I understand your point but can you really compare the 80s anime to the current material? The 80s material was mostly TV based, needed ratings to keep their advertisers and sponsors happy so went for a wide appeal. Post 2k anime needs to sell 10,000+ DVDs and some merchandise, in short it is niche marketing. The current market is more diverse but has lower relative prodcution values.

Take the example of Macross Frontier, it was a anniversary anime that took elements from all it's predecessors. It was a commercial succes but was not as good as SDFM in an artistic sense, but then that was never the aim as a sequel. That does not mean there isn't recent anime that can compare to SDFM. Eureka 7 can go toe-to-toe with SDFM and walk away unscathed.

Mecha themed anime and space operas certainly are far less common then in their heydays but to say that anime as a whole is worse, I don't know. I can still find plenty of good anime from both decades.

Some genres that do not rely on high production values have flourished post 2k. Slice-of-life for example has created absolute gems like Aria, Haibane Rinmei, Honey and Clover and Nodame Cantibile just to name a few.

If there was a period where anime was weak then it was the mid-nineties where the industry struggled to survive the change of format.

[sketchley]

Let's not ever, EVER, bring up that movie again...

Grave of the Fireflies.

Grave of the Fireflies.

Grave of the Fireflies.

... is not Lord of the Flies.

Lord of the Flies was hellish to go through. Grave of the Fireflies was hard to watch, but hey, that's what all good war movies are. I think the best is, "Hell in the Pacific". War movies don't get much better than that. But as that came out in 1968, and is live action, I doubt most of you are aware of it or interested.

Anyhow, Grave of the Fireflies is the perfect antithesis to all of the complaints about anime the author of the first post has. If the author wants more, pretty much anything by Studio Ghibli will satisfy. Wait, aren't they the ones who made Grave of the Fireflies? Anyhow, as they are all aimed at the mass market, and the majority aimed at kids-yet-having-to-satisfy-the-parents-that-accompany-them demographic, you know that you'll be in for a good treat.

Grave of the Fireflies?

[troyness]

Samuri pizza cats ,was a deep anime!!!!

It had pizza,s,swords and cats(oh my god ,my heads about to explode)

[nugundamII]

OK, this is going to be one of those "If it wasn't for Gundam you wouldn't have Macross" topics, but really. Ok, Macross DOES borrow elements from Gundam. It does, no doubt about it. No big deal, I like them both, so bonus for me. Then Mospeada borrows from Macross. Then Patlabor borrows, then Evangelion borrows, then Code Geass borrows, then Gundam borrows from one of it's offspring. It's commonplace, and up until recently it didn't bother me. However, one thing does bother me:

Macross Frontier:

I liked it, sort of. Visually amazing, not a bad story, but, has it gotten so bad that Macross had to rip ITSELF off? There's a fine line between an homage and blatant stealing, and this was the most INBRED thing I have ever seen. Come on, the kid with glasses who happens to be a badass flying a BLUE valk? Skull leader happens to be older, have wierd hair and the same looking valk? Alto too. Yeah, there were some differences, but not enough for me. The series was less of a continuation and more of a reboot, and if it was a reboot, it wasn't a very good one.

Code Geass: I've been catching up, and all I have to say is "Code Gundam".

Gundam 00: Oh christ...I love Gundam, but this series is sooooooo corny, preachy, and downright theft of SO MANY other anime concepts I can't even begin to list them.

Evangelion: This was a glorified, artsy fartsy rip off of Gundam. Obviously.

The new Appleseed movies: Ok, John Woo had a hand in it. That instantly means "write a lame story around Karate and guns". I don't even really consider these animes.

I guess the point is don't we, as consumers who pump millions of dollars into this genre via movies, toys, models, etc. have a right to demand something refreshing other than "howl's moving castle"? I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

then you would like SkyGraspers cause the writer is exactly making that statement in this anime about other anime. It takes effort to see this but the message is there laud and clear

[Excillon]

I just feel like I haven't really seen anything refreshing in too long, especially the mecha genre. The last mecha anime I remember truly enjoying was FMP...but that was more for the humor than the mecha. I guess the last mecha anime I really enjoyed for the mecha itself was probably either Gundam Seed (even though it's a UC Knockoff I liked the art and mobile suits a lot, and before destiny I hoped it would be a chance to fix some mistakes made in the UC continuity) or Detonator Orgun. I don't think it's the mecha designs that have fallen off, they seem to be as sharp as ever, I think I've just hit the point where I realized that just because a robot looks cool, doesn't mean the anime is cool. I know I'm jaded a bit, but I just want to be blown away again like I used to be, when I saw such great animes as Akira, GITS, Macross Plus, DYRL, Zeta Gundam, and Patlabor again.

[Mr March]

Guess you'll have to wait for another zeitgeist-immersed mecha show. But what are the odds long time fans will even like it?

[VFTF1]

I guess the last mecha anime I really enjoyed for the mecha itself was probably either Gundam Seed

But see - to me it's kinda wierd to knock anime for copy-catting too much, complain that there's nothing fresh out there, and then come out and say that the last mecha anime you enjoyed was...Gundam Seed.

Particularly since the Mecha in Gundam Seed, IMO, were actually not that great. The only difference was in the level of animation - the SEED anime managed to be better animated than the original UC MSG. But the Mecha itself from MSG was solid and could stand up design-wise to SEED any day (IMO).

But even if I'm wrong - the fact remains that SEED is a copycat

I dunno.

I guess we just have to wait for the next big mecha/anime revolution to hit.

Hopefully it wears pink lingerie, is fully poseable and comes in 1:1 scale

Pete

[Noriko Takaya]

Well, to answer the question stated by the title of this thread, "Anime has been insulting my intelligence since 1965." And it continues to do so every time I watch it. That's why I love it.

[Gubaba]

Guess you'll have to wait for another zeitgeist-immersed mecha show. But what are the odds long time fans will even like it?

If it's daring and experimental and hits more than it misses, it'll DEFINITELY gain my attention.

[Einherjar]

Depending on my mood, anime can insult my intelligence, but I usually wait to see where a story is going before I criticize. Also, I diversify my interests beyond anime with some sci-fi, some comic books, comedies, etc, so if one is failing me there are others to fall back on.

[Radd]

On the topic of Frontier, being a 25th Anniversary Send-up was pretty much the entire point of the series. The line between "homage" and "stealing" isn't nearly as fine as the op lets on. You can say that Frontier went overboard on the homages, you can tell me you didn't like the homages. That's fine. You can't tell me it was "outright stealing", or say that the series didn't bring anything new to the franchise. I gotta call that for the BS it is. There's certainly other things more worth complaining about as far as Frontier is concerned, but that's really for another thread.

As for anime in general, hate to break it to you, but 90% of everything is crap. And even that's being generous. I do agree that there's a lot of overused anime cliches, then again I really can't say animation and comics from other parts of the world are really any better.

I'd say just find the diamonds in the rough, and keep broad horizons, like others have already suggested. There's a lot of good stuff out there, it's just that there's a whole lot more crap.

Now, to grab one point in the op's post, yeah sure there's a lot of angsty main characters. On the other hand, there's a lot of reasonably well balanced main characters who get labeled as "angsty" because they aren't happy and up-beat 100% of the time. For some reason anime fans in general tend to confuse conflict with angst more than anyone else.

Now, as for one time period of anime being better or worse than another, also gotta call BS. People tend to remember both the best and the most popular (these two categories not necessarily overlapping, of course), and forget the...well...forgettable. The best of the best are always exceptions, in any time period.

[Gubaba]

On the topic of Frontier, being a 25th Anniversary Send-up was pretty much the entire point of the series. The line between "homage" and "stealing" isn't nearly as fine as the op lets on. You can say that Frontier went overboard on the homages, you can tell me you didn't like the homages. That's fine. You can't tell me it was "outright stealing", or say that the series didn't bring anything new to the franchise. I gotta call that for the BS it is. There's certainly other things more worth complaining about as far as Frontier is concerned, but that's really for another thread.

Yeah. I won't go on about this, but the homages really started to die down after the first few episodes, and then Frontier really became its own story. Some liked it, some didn't, but I don't think anyone can legitimately say it was merely a rip-off of SDFM.

As for anime in general, hate to break it to you, but 90% of everything is crap. And even that's being generous. I do agree that there's a lot of overused anime cliches, then again I really can't say animation and comics from other parts of the world are really any better.

I'd say just find the diamonds in the rough, and keep broad horizons, like others have already suggested. There's a lot of good stuff out there, it's just that there's a whole lot more crap.

Now, to grab one point in the op's post, yeah sure there's a lot of angsty main characters. On the other hand, there's a lot of reasonably well balanced main characters who get labeled as "angsty" because they aren't happy and up-beat 100% of the time. For some reason anime fans in general tend to confuse conflict with angst more than anyone else.

Now, as for one time period of anime being better or worse than another, also gotta call BS. People tend to remember both the best and the most popular (these two categories not necessarily overlapping, of course), and forget the...well...forgettable. The best of the best are always exceptions, in any time period.

Heh. I agree completely. I remember when I was twelve or so, and just getting hooked up with raw anime VHS tapes. I thought EVERYTHING was brilliant. Then, in the early nineties, I mostly got out of the anime scene. Later, when I got back, I rewatched some of the stuff I had thought was great and realized that, well, it wasn't.

The shock of the new and unexpected, along with having it in a language I couldn't understand, made me think they were much deeper and more interesting than they actually were.

And yes, conflicted (angsty, emo, whatever the hell you want to call them) teens are par for the course, and always have been. Just another one of Tomino's gifts to anime tropes... (I'm not really sure if it originated with him, but Kappei from Zambot 3, Amuro, and Camille are all whiny and have major issues. Not he may not have done it first, but he did it best. Until Eva, that is.)

[F-ZeroOne]

I guess the other mecha pilot archetype is the Go Nagai one - kind of an arsehole but a good kid at heart. Tomino can do likeable - Uso from V-Gundam is pretty likeable (though somewhat younger than previous Gundam pilots) and Loran from Turn-A is probably the nicest Gundam pilot ever, but yes, I'd say much of it can be pinned on him.

[bandit29]

Sometimes things change...

I'll take Fist of the North Star over any of that moe, school kid, or maid garbage that has polluted anime for the last couple of years.

Edited May 31, 2009 by bandit29

[shiroikaze]

I'll take Fist of the North Star over any of that moe, school kid, or maid garbage that has polluted anime for the last couple of years.

Honestly, I woudn't call Azumanga Daioh crap really. Lucky Star though... is hit or miss.

[Gubaba]

I'll take Fist of the North Star over any of that moe, school kid, or maid garbage that has polluted anime for the last couple of years.

I'll agree to that. Fist of the North Star is one of the funniest anime comedies out there.

EDIT: Hey, my 5000th post! W00T!

Edited June 1, 2009 by Gubaba

[Macross007]

Usually, anime is not insulting my intelligence but Gundam 00 with all this super robot crap did it. Can't believe there are still people thinking that Gundam is a "real robot" mecha franchise.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Macross007

[Gubaba]

Usually, anime is not insulting my intelligence but Gundam 00 with all this super robot crap did it. Can't believe there are still people thinking that Gundam is a "real robot" mecha franchise.

Well...it USED to be...

[Bri]

I'll take Fist of the North Star over any of that moe, school kid, or maid garbage that has polluted anime for the last couple of years.

That pic was originally a reaction to levels of violence being a measure of adult content, not a quality comparison between these anime.

Personally I prefer lucky star and Gurren Lagan from that picture. Both take a stab at the their own genre in a refreshing way.

As a side note, the dislike of anime fans for anything out of their own corner will never cease to amaze me. Whether it's shonen, mecha, high school, moe or whatever.

For example mecha was voted to be the mosted hated genre on the aniway forums. Why? The argument: all mecha is the same, it's boring and humanoid robots are silly ...sigh, kids(including adult ones) these days

Edited May 31, 2009 by Bri

[F-ZeroOne]

Having watched some Zambot 3 recently, frankly I think the creators of Sailor Moon should be worried about being sued by Tomino... ("Full Moon Atta - wait, I mean Moon Tiara Action!").

I am, always have been, and always will be a mecha fan but I also have a soft spot for romantic comedies, and have watched more Sailor Moon than is probably healthy for me... If I find the concept of something interesting, I'll watch it - I'm just more likely to watch it if big robots can be involved somehow.

Edited June 1, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[MilSpex]

OP, I basically hate all anime produced after 1991. Stick to the classics and you will never be dissapointed. Theres a lot of classic mecha shows to enjoy. Votoms, Layzner and Xabungle to start with.

Funny... the title has nothing to do with the content of the first post.

Have you tried anything other than mecha anime? Like... another genre of anime?

Tried Grave of the Fireflies?

That movie is an Imperial Japanese apologist piece of propaganda. Everybody in Japan sees that movie as a kid and automatically believes that Japan was the sole tragic (and completely innocent) victim of WWII.

Eg: Evangelion is not a rip-off of Gundam. It's a rip off of Giant Robo/Mazinger (and similar shows), combined with Nausicaa.

Yeah its a Sentai/Super Robot homage but Nausicaa? Huh? How??

Edited June 1, 2009 by MilSpex

[sketchley]

(...)

That movie is an Imperial Japanese apologist piece of propaganda. Everybody in Japan sees that movie as a kid and automatically believes that Japan was the sole tragic (and completely innocent) victim of WWII.

So, I guess you're the type of person who sees "Das Boot" as a Nazi apologist propaganda film?

Yeah its a Sentai/Super Robot homage but Nausicaa? Huh? How??

Giant biomechanical robot possessing god like powers in a post-destruction of the world scenario facing biological opponents? The manga has a great secret society that's not only out to rule the world, but remake it, using their own mutated simple-minded bio-warriors. There's also the purification of humanity/the world, and a giant, super powerful computer. I'm sure I'm missing a whole bunch, but basically the only new thing that Evangalion added is the psychology aspects of the series.

[sharky]

I guess never having really watched much of Gundam except 0083 Stardust Memory makes most everything seem fresh IMHO. That's probably the best advice then. Don't ever watch Gundam and you will be fine.

[Chewie]

2+2=5

Only for extremely large values of 2.

[Noyhauser]

So, I guess you're the type of person who sees "Das Boot" as a Nazi apologist propaganda film?

No doubt. Given Isao Takahata's general themes of promoting rural and traditional livelihoods, to call him an Imperial Japanese apologist is laughable.

Giant biomechanical robot possessing god like powers in a post-destruction of the world scenario facing biological opponents? The manga has a great secret society that's not only out to rule the world, but remake it, using their own mutated simple-minded bio-warriors. There's also the purification of humanity/the world, and a giant, super powerful computer. I'm sure I'm missing a whole bunch, but basically the only new thing that Evangalion added is the psychology aspects of the series.

Heh, never saw it that way but you're right. I recently realized every Miyazaki piece between 1978 to 1986 had this plot; Futureboy Conan (the Giganto) Nausicaa (the great robot) and Laputa (the Floating island fortress)

Edited June 2, 2009 by Noyhauser

[sketchley]

(...)

Heh, never saw it that way but you're right. I recently realized every Miyazaki piece between 1978 to 1986 had this plot; Futureboy Conan (the Giganto) Nausicaa (the great robot) and Laputa (the Floating island fortress)

When I hear things like this, I realize more and more how original My Neighbour Totoro was.

[Bri]

When I hear things like this, I realize more and more how original My Neighbour Totoro was.

So true, Totoro is exceptional movie making by any standard.

[MilSpex]

No doubt. Given Isao Takahata's general themes of promoting rural and traditional livelihoods, to call him an Imperial Japanese apologist is laughable.

You can`t really comment until you live in the country for a reasonable period of time and get to know mainstream Japanese views of Japanese people. 90% honestly believe Japan was the innocent VICTIM of World War 2, have no knowledge of what the Imperial Army did in Asia, the Pacific or Australia. The Woe is Me victim complex is mainstream here. Japanese school textbooks have Grave of the Fireflies reworkings as English lessons. Some are about the A-bombs - "One day a bomb fell from the sky...", some are just about a kid in WWII who`s sister dies of starvation like in Grave. They give no context for WHY a bomb fell from the sky, or that kid starved, just paint Japan as the angelic victim of war. Grave of the Fireflies does nothing more than perpetuate this. Where is the mainstream program available to Japanese about the little Chinese kid who`s Mom is raped and murdered by Japanese troops, who`s father is experimented on by Unit 731? I know American entertainment honestly looks at America`s sins, look at the recent "Redacted" or every Vietnam war movie ever made, but Japan DOES NOT. It LOVES to see itself as the poor innocent VICTIM and EVERY Japanese kid sees Grave of the Fireflies and believes it even more. It`s an apologist piece of PROPAGANDA, no doubt.

[sketchley]

You can`t really comment until you live in the country for a reasonable period of time and get to know mainstream Japanese views of Japanese people. 90% honestly believe Japan was the innocent VICTIM of World War 2, have no knowledge of what the Imperial Army did in Asia, the Pacific or Australia. The Woe is Me victim complex is mainstream here. Japanese school textbooks have Grave of the Fireflies reworkings as English lessons. Some are about the A-bombs - "One day a bomb fell from the sky...", some are just about a kid in WWII who`s sister dies of starvation like in Grave. They give no context for WHY a bomb fell from the sky, or that kid starved, just paint Japan as the angelic victim of war. Grave of the Fireflies does nothing more than perpetuate this. Where is the mainstream program available to Japanese about the little Chinese kid who`s Mom is raped and murdered by Japanese troops, who`s father is experimented on by Unit 731? I know American entertainment honestly looks at America`s sins, look at the recent "Redacted" or every Vietnam war movie ever made, but Japan DOES NOT. It LOVES to see itself as the poor innocent VICTIM and EVERY Japanese kid sees Grave of the Fireflies and believes it even more. It`s an apologist piece of PROPAGANDA, no doubt.

Hi. Live in Japan. Have lived in Japan for more than a reasonable period of time. Am more than well aware of the history textbook revisions.

You are misunderstanding something about Japan. They are ashamed of it. The people are not rewriting it, but mostly brushing it under the carpet and trying their best to forget about it.

We're not talking about an editorial bias on things. We're talking about bare footnotes in history textbooks.

Now, given your comments, you're most likely someone who is from one of the countries that suffered Japanese aggression during that time period, and/or are talking about a different movie. Grave of the Fireflies is many things, including the portrayl of the harshness of war sans politics, but it is not a rewriting of history.

As someone who is proving themselves to be anti-Japan, shouldn't you be encouraging anything that reminds people of history, and informs the youth of the past?

And regarding American movies... can you honestly say that Pearl Harbour isn't Imperial America apologist historical revisionism? Not all "historical" movies from the USA are as high and mighty as your trying to make them out to be.

Anyhow, this is all tangental to the topic of this post - the topic starter wanted something different from the standard mecha fare. Is Grave of the Fireflies not different from the standard mecha fare?

Edited June 3, 2009 by sketchley

[miles316]

Hi. Live in Japan. Have lived in Japan for more than a reasonable period of time. Am more than well aware of the history textbook revisions.

You are misunderstanding something about Japan. They are ashamed of it. The people are not rewriting it, but mostly brushing it under the carpet and trying their best to forget about it.

We're not talking about an editorial bias on things. We're talking about bare footnotes in history textbooks.

Now, given your comments, you're most likely someone who is from one of the countries that suffered Japanese aggression during that time period, and/or are talking about a different movie. Grave of the Fireflies is many things, including the portrayl of the harshness of war sans politics, but it is not a rewriting of history.

As someone who is proving themselves to be anti-Japan, shouldn't you be encouraging anything that reminds people of history, and informs the youth of the past?

And regarding American movies... can you honestly say that Pearl Harbour isn't Imperial America apologist historical revisionism? Not all "historical" movies from the USA are as high and mighty as your trying to make them out to be.

Anyhow, this is all tangental to the topic of this post - the topic starter wanted something different from the standard mecha fare. Is Grave of the Fireflies not different from the standard mecha fare?

How did Japan explain WWII thirty years ago, or right after WWII ended? did this revisionist history come about in the last ten or twenty years?

[sketchley]

How did Japan explain WWII thirty years ago, or right after WWII ended? did this revisionist history come about in the last ten or twenty years?

As the question is quite broad, there's no one, simple answer. Here's a start for the reading that needs to be done, and it should guide you to sources that can provide fuller answers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_...Debate_in_Japan