Robotech and HG License Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh man that's great. Limited print run and hungry fans makes for an instant success you can brag about even if it sucks.

and that, my friends, is the secret to Harmony Gold's "success".

Harmony Gold gives the illusion that Robotech is popular by producing merchandise in very limited quantities, and then bragging about it when it sells out. The cornerstone of their toy sales, the Masterpiece Collection, are all limited to production runs of 10,000 units. Considering that the Robotech fanbase, while small, is still an international one, the limited 10,000 unit run isn't going to go very far, especially not with fans buying 2 or 3 at a time, and comic shops buying them in even larger numbers. The comics books are on the same model... extremely limited print runs that are totally inadequate to satisfy the small, but devoted fanbase.

[Freiflug88]

Nah, Macross II was an official production done by Big West, it's just that Studio Nue wasn't involved with the project (though some other Macross creators were, like Haruhiko Mikimoto), the studios who did the animation were AIC and ONRIO. Kawamori's never really said he wants nothing to do with Macross II, just that it's an alternate universe story because it doesn't line up with his vision for the ongoing story (which was, at the time, Macross Plus). It was made back when he was still loudly professing that he didn't want to do another Macross show.

That explains it. I don't remember who, but someone told me that Tatsunko made Macross II behind Big Wests back and that Big West seized it after BW vs Tatsunko. I still think it would interesting though if HG/WB some how acquired the Live action rights for the mecha designs that are unique to Macross II. Everyone knows HG doesn't have the creativity to redesign VFs, and as for WB after looking back at what they did with the Batmobile I almost get the feeling they will be making VFs out of a F-117 Nighthawks. Needless to say I think the VF-2SS and other M II designs are much better design than what HG/WB would likely come up with and I could list about a dozen different reasons for using them.

As for BW I think they could really only gain from overcharging HG/WB for the live action rights to their mecha designs from their discontinued alternative universe and acting all buddy buddy with HG and WB before they grab a hold of the completed movie to leak out. Of course rather then leak the movies themselves they should make deals with lots of arrested Japanese p2p users to have their charges for sharing Macross Frontier dropped if they seed the leaked copy of the RLAM for a year on public torrent trackers via their seedboxes and home computers.

[Seto Kaiba]

I still think it would interesting though if HG/WB some how acquired the Live action rights for the mecha designs that are unique to Macross II.

And in one sentence, you have completely redefined my vision of hell.

Everyone knows HG doesn't have the creativity to redesign VFs, and as for WB after looking back at what they did with the Batmobile I almost get the feeling they will be making VFs out of a F-117 Nighthawks.

Well, Harmony Gold may not have the creativity to redesign the VFs, but then again the final say on mechanical design belongs to Maguire Entertainment and Warner Bros, who DO know how to do that. I get the feeling what we'll be seeing are transforming F-22s and F-35s, just like Bayformers did.

Needless to say I think the VF-2SS and other M II designs are much better design than what HG/WB would likely come up with and I could list about a dozen different reasons for using them.

Yeah, they're much better than what HG/WB/ME could do, but they're still Macross IP, and thankfully off-limits to all three parties of idiots. As much as I'd love to see a high-quality CG VF-2SS Valkyrie II, the last place I'd want to see it is a Robotech movie.

[Einherjar]

Harmony Gold gives the illusion that Robotech is popular by producing merchandise in very limited quantities, and then bragging about it when it sells out. The cornerstone of their toy sales, the Masterpiece Collection, are all limited to production runs of 10,000 units. Considering that the Robotech fanbase, while small, is still an international one, the limited 10,000 unit run isn't going to go very far, especially not with fans buying 2 or 3 at a time, and comic shops buying them in even larger numbers. The comics books are on the same model... extremely limited print runs that are totally inadequate to satisfy the small, but devoted fanbase.

If they somehow gain a profit from this practice, I'd like to know what they're doing with the money. They're probably not making shows or anything with plot with it. Reinvesting it in new crappy toys? Paying off licensing fees and lawyers for a future comeback?

It's hard to imagine these people actually made a film and disappeared from the industry altogether. You only get to talk and hear from these people through a website and conventions, but they're not doing anything.

[Wanzerfan]

If those DVDs were the individual volumes of the show, those were made years ago. Carl Macek probably had nothing to do with them, only ADV. They've since been repackaged into a thinpack collection of the ADV produced Macross series, in addition to a 2 for 1 Mospeada and Southern cross combo and a jumbo block of Robotech (minus Shadow Chronicles).

And did anyone know Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles is a comic no one gives a crap about?

Who the hell do you think runs ADV, Santa Claus? Mr. Macek's been running that company ever since it first started over 10 years ago.

[Einherjar]

Who the hell do you think runs ADV, Santa Claus? Mr. Macek's been running that company ever since it first started over 10 years ago.

You're confusing him for John Ledford and Matt Greenfield. They made ADV and helped HG bring Robotech and the original series to DVD, though Animeigo released Macross uncut first.

Carl Macek might be a freelance producer or something because he's working on the English adaptation of Bleach for Viz.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Einherjar

[Beltane70]

Who the hell do you think runs ADV, Santa Claus? Mr. Macek's been running that company ever since it first started over 10 years ago.

WRONG! Macek never worked for ADV. Where did you ever hear that?

[Einherjar]

WRONG! Macek never worked for ADV. Where did you ever hear that?

Actually, he might have before, but toned down his directing/producing style in recent years. Either that or people stopped caring because the subs are also available for stuff he works on.

Divergence Eve (TV)

[Seto Kaiba]

If they somehow gain a profit from this practice, I'd like to know what they're doing with the money. They're probably not making shows or anything with plot with it. Reinvesting it in new crappy toys? Paying off licensing fees and lawyers for a future comeback?

Oh yes, they profit from that practice.

The way they made Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and trumpeted it as a huge success ought to be a clear indication of exactly HOW they do it too. They put very little money into the development and production of new products, then price them as though they were made by a much more competent company. That way, even if sales are mediocre (and they often are) the initial investment will still be covered, and the rest is all profit.

Exactly what they're doing with it is anybody's guess... since they don't seem to be investing it in more or better products (given the recent decline in the quality of the Masterpiece Collection and the phenomenally low budget of the RTSC movie). They probably spend a lot of it keeping their staff paid, and the rest on constantly renewing their trademarks.

[Einherjar]

Seto, I haven't been keeping track of HG's works, but what exactly have they done in 2009 so far for Robotech? Is it just toys and an RPG book and can they sustain a business with their quality of work without the fans with money to burn?

[Freiflug88]

And in one sentence, you have completely redefined my vision of hell.

I didn't think it would be that easy. I thought I was going to have to do go to something extreme like go to some dark room and chant "Sazaz Sazaz Nester Nester blah blah blah" with sexy college girls wearing only black robes.

As much as I'd love to see a high-quality CG VF-2SS Valkyrie II, the last place I'd want to see it is a Robotech movie.

That's what the mute button on your TV remote and the Macross II OST CD in your stereo is for.

Who the hell do you think runs ADV, Santa Claus? Mr. Macek's been running that company ever since it first started over 10 years ago.

You must be thinking of Streamline Pictures, the company that Carl Macek and Jerry Beck founded 21 years ago back in 1988. Several older titles that ADV has dubbed lately though have were dubbed by Streamline Pictures and Carl Macek years ago.

WRONG! Macek never worked for ADV. Where did you ever hear that?

Yeah, I don't think Macek was ever an actual employee of ADV, but I am sure he has connections with the guys at ADV as pretty much everyone in the anime industry is connected. I won't be surprised though if he was hired to consult on ADV's redub of titles like Megazone 23 that were dubed earlier under him through Streamline Pictures.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, I haven't been keeping track of HG's works, but what exactly have they done in 2009 so far for Robotech? Is it just toys and an RPG book and can they sustain a business with their quality of work without the fans with money to burn?

There really hasn't been a lot of motion from Harmony Gold this year.

The only major development in Robotech since Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles failed to set the world on fire was their December 2008 announcement that Robotech's original series would be sold on iTunes on a per-episode basis. There's been precious little from the Robotech front this year, with the only noteworthy things being the hype about the live-action movie (which even die-hard fans are starting to get sick of) and a few more shoddily-built additions to the Masterpiece Collection... namely, more color-matching Betas and another Cyclone.

Can they sustain business without the gullible fans who've buy every repainted toy and re-released DVD box set? Probably not. Of course, they do have the backing of the main corporate office, which does something with real-estate. If the fans do finally get tired of it all and stop buying, the main office'll probably shut the Robotech franchise down and go do something else.

[valk1j]

Can they sustain business without the gullible fans who've buy every repainted toy and re-released DVD box set? Probably not. Of course, they do have the backing of the main corporate office, which does something with real-estate. If the fans do finally get tired of it all and stop buying, the main office'll probably shut the Robotech franchise down and go do something else.

That would be a dream come true.

[Gubaba]

That explains it. I don't remember who, but someone told me that Tatsunko made Macross II behind Big Wests back and that Big West seized it after BW vs Tatsunko. I still think it would interesting though if HG/WB some how acquired the Live action rights for the mecha designs that are unique to Macross II. Everyone knows HG doesn't have the creativity to redesign VFs, and as for WB after looking back at what they did with the Batmobile I almost get the feeling they will be making VFs out of a F-117 Nighthawks. Needless to say I think the VF-2SS and other M II designs are much better design than what HG/WB would likely come up with and I could list about a dozen different reasons for using them.

I think you're confusing Big West and Studio Nue. Big West made Macross II, but Studio Nue declined to work on the show.

Who the hell do you think runs ADV, Santa Claus? Mr. Macek's been running that company ever since it first started over 10 years ago.

Matt Greenfield kind looks like he could Santa's little Hollywood brother, doesn't he?

But let's break this apart, shall we? Yes, Carl Macek has worked for ADV, but ADV started nearly twenty years ago, when Macek was still running Streamline. ADV is not Macek's company, and it never was.

[JB0]

... and as for WB after looking back at what they did with the Batmobile I almost get the feeling they will be making VFs out of a F-117 Nighthawks. ...

You mean.... they'd be making the VF-17?

[taksraven]

You mean.... they'd be making the VF-17?

Ha ha. Great observation.

Taksraven

[chrisk]

Updates from AnimeExpo, in case you thought you missed anything important:

Harmony Gold/Toynami is back to shoveling Macross repaints like they "own" the license:

Gosh, where did Toynami get the idea to paint a VF-1 black and yellow and market it as a limited edition? I'm sure I didn't see that in the Macross animation which they purportedly own.

Here's an interesting tweet from Robotech's twitter account:

Kev telling the story of when he worked on Jackass as a production assistant. Specifically the Poo Cocktail episode. I've said too much D:

about 3 hours ago from Tweetie

Ah, this one must be their big bombshell. It took HG two weeks to announce this on twitter... Further cementing how slow the Robotech staff is at updating their web stuff:

Finally, proof that Kevin McKeever is insecure, and is desperate to show all you naysayers that Robotech is in fact, NOT dead. Despite crappy comics, movies, and toys.

Now quit yer' bitchin' and HAIL ROBOTECH!

Edited July 5, 2009 by chrisk

[terry the lone wolf]

Updates from AnimeExpo, in case you thought you missed anything important:

Harmony Gold/Toynami is back to shoveling Macross repaints like they "own" the license:

Gosh, where did Toynami get the idea to paint a VF-1 black and yellow and market it as a limited edition? I'm sure I didn't see that in the Macross animation which they purportedly own.

It's the Stealth Veritech from the Battlecry video game.

[azrael]

Updates from AnimeExpo, in case you thought you missed anything important:

Harmony Gold/Toynami is back to shoveling Macross repaints like they "own" the license:

Gosh, where did Toynami get the idea to paint a VF-1 black and yellow and market it as a limited edition? I'm sure I didn't see that in the Macross animation which they purportedly own.

Whoa...original... Welcome to 2007.

Here's an interesting tweet from Robotech's twitter account:

Ah, this one must be their big bombshell. It took HG two weeks to announce this on twitter... Further cementing how slow the Robotech staff is at updating their web stuff:

Meh. I've seen Twitter spam accounts move faster than them.

Finally, proof that Kevin McKeever is insecure, and is desperate to show all you naysayers that Robotech is in fact, NOT dead. Despite crappy comics, movies, and toys.

Now quit yer' bitchin' and HAIL ROBOTECH!

So...that's like all the RT fans in the world huh?

[taksraven]

So...that's like all the RT fans in the world huh?

Scary bunch, arent' they. How many MW members, I reckon that we could take 'em out.

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Gosh, where did Toynami get the idea to paint a VF-1 black and yellow and market it as a limited edition? I'm sure I didn't see that in the Macross animation which they purportedly own.

I remember that one:

http://anymoon.com/blog/2009/02/23/yamato-...rsary-specials/

http://www.collectiondx.com/news_item/0627...paints_continue

Way to be original.

[taksraven]

I remember that one:

http://anymoon.com/blog/2009/02/23/yamato-...rsary-specials/

http://www.collectiondx.com/news_item/0627...paints_continue

Way to be original.

Look, I am sure that it was a total accident and in no way did HG or anybody else mean to deliberately rip off Macross.

I am sure that if anybody accidentally stole one of their ideas, that they would never sue!

Taksraven

[chrisk]

Whoa...original... rolleyes.gif dry.gif Welcome to 2007.

I'm glad someone at Harmony Gold/Toynami realized that repainting "Beta Fighters" isn't that lucrative anymore. (especially if the toy it was suppose to connect with sucks Devastator balls)

As the good ol' Haydonites (from Robotech: Shadow Chronicles) once said in horribly cliched fashion... "It has begun!"

So...that's like all the RT fans in the world huh?

Why do you think those "Stealth Veritechs" are only being produced in extremely limited quantities? Only the hardest of the hardcore are left in Robotech for now. Naturally, expect Robotech.com to boast how it "sold out" in 5 minutes (while pricing it at about 300 dollars of course!).

Edited July 5, 2009 by chrisk

[Einherjar]

Wait, they hyped up their panel for Anime Expo with possible news about the franchise and movie and THAT'S the most noteworthy thing they offered? Sure, and didn't you promise a Elint Seeker or something a year ago on a certain podcast a-holes!? What a waste, it's not even original anymore.

So plans for a 25th Anniversary celebration, or anything, for Robotech are still reliant on what other people have done and plan for the 25th Anniversary of Macross, only a few months/years behind. A bit of a letdown, but from their track record they're used to sloppy seconds. I guess the fans will eat it up until the toys break down on them again.

[Seto Kaiba]

Harmony Gold/Toynami is back to shoveling Macross repaints like they "own" the license:

Well, they DO have the outside-Japan merchandising rights to DYRL.

Gosh, where did Toynami get the idea to paint a VF-1 black and yellow and market it as a limited edition? I'm sure I didn't see that in the Macross animation which they purportedly own.

Nah, they're just stealing ideas from other toy manufacturers now... I'm kind of amused that this black and gold repaint is a Strike Valkyrie from DYRL, rather than something from Robotech. It isn't the Stealth Valkyrie from Battlecry though... that was just Hikaru's color scheme with the white replaced by black

[taksraven]

Totally unrelated, but I love stupid legal sh!tfights over names........

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/pop...90704-d8fc.html

Taksraven

[Freiflug88]

You mean.... they'd be making the VF-17?

D'oh! Yet another reason I need to rewatch Macross 7. I wasn't even thinking about the VF-17 from Macross 7, never even noticed the VF-17 Nightmare/F-117 Nighthawk connection either . I was thinking about how WB turned the iconic batmobile into an armored car on steroids that just looks too bulky and if its gonna be dodging Itano circus manueavers I like it looking sleek and agile. I can see the RLAM using a variety of transforming jets though. Rather then have only the fighters modified to transform they might as well have stealth bombers (VF-17s) and Predator drones (Ghosts). Now if they just don't turn the battle pods into War of World's tripod knockoffs.

HAIL ROBOTECH!

It just doesn't have a ring to it like I dunno... "Hail Zeon." Besides HG is more like the Earth Federation of sorts: they deserve to have a space colony dropped on their HQ. I repeat a space colony. We can't afford to drop the A.S.S 1 over their heads and give them a chance to apply their plagiarizing skills to Extraterrestrial Over-Technology.

[azrael]

...What a waste, it's not even original anymore.

Well...The gold trim is moved down about 0.5cm compared to the Yamato. Now it's original!

[Einherjar]

Great, now I'm interested in knowing what you can do to make a panel presentation like Robotech last for at least an hour, saying nothing new but keeping people interested at the same time every year. You get at least 2 days in the year when breaking news in your industry is usually revealed, Anime Expo and Comic Con, and the worthwhile moments you could come up with on the first one is a small update on LAMR and a toy. At this rate, if you're lucky you'll see a spray painted prototype of the toy and the apathetic writers for the script at Comic Con.

Seriously, what happened at that con today? Was there anyone there who asked important questions about the future and stuff that didn't get shot down by the usual suspects? Did they even try instead of letting another opportunity pass them by to get answers from the think tank? Don't tell me people were distracted by nostalgia, hero worship, and swag to really want to know what's going on.

[chrisk]

Great, now I'm interested in knowing what you can do to make a panel presentation like Robotech last for at least an hour, saying nothing new but keeping people interested at the same time every year... Seriously, what happened at that con today? Was there anyone there who asked important questions about the future and stuff that didn't get shot down by the usual suspects? Did they even try instead of letting another opportunity pass them by to get answers from the think tank?

Here is your basic template for a Robotech panel (circa 2006 - 2009). Update just a teeny bit the announcements with "new writer(s) for Robotech LAM", "brand new" Toynami merchandise, awesome Palladium stuff nobody cares about.

PMX08: Robotech Panel Parts 1 - 5 Length is about 50 minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i30NJ7NZ6a8...PL&index=10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtTAknvsjU...EF&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCZsvu5YUWQ...EF&index=12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9yAGDcrnSA...EF&index=13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxQpe30obIQ...EF&index=14

I recommend you check out PART IV of the series... around 50 seconds in.

Don't tell me people were distracted by nostalgia, hero worship, and swag to really want to know what's going on.

Either that, or people were too busy filing to the toilet after hearing Kevin McKeever's Jackass story for the umpteenth time.

On a serious note, I really wouldn't mind seeing a Robotech LAM. Maybe this scriptwriter is "it" and something substantial will come out by November '09. Just let it get away from the original as much as possible so we won't have to endure companies like Toynami making fools of themselves.

Edited July 5, 2009 by chrisk

[EXO]

I wonder if Tommy knew that Chuck Roven dropped out of Robotech a while back...

http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=com_c...8&Itemid=99

[Einherjar]

Here is your basic template for a Robotech panel (circa 2006 - 2009). Update just a teeny bit the announcements with "new writer(s) for Robotech LAM", "brand new" Toynami merchandise, awesome Palladium stuff nobody cares about.

I guess the weird thing about it is even on the Internet fans sound conditioned to expect these things every year and are happy with it. All important criticisms reverted to a call for patience that will sort itself out in time, every time. They trust these guys way too much, they haven't done anything creative for Robotech for years and they're mostly pitchmen now.

Remember in Waterworld when the Deacon made an inspirational speech that motivated the Smokers to row their tanker at no specific direction? After the convention season, how long will it take fans to figure out they've been played again this year?

[azrael]

I guess the weird thing about it is even on the Internet fans sound conditioned to expect these things every year and are happy with it. All important criticisms reverted to a call for patience that will sort itself out in time, every time. They trust these guys way too much, they haven't done anything creative for Robotech for years and they're mostly pitchmen now.

Well, maybe someone should throw out a question at their next Con appearance. Unless they don't do Q&A sessions.

[Freiflug88]

Well...The gold trim is moved down about 0.5cm compared to the Yamato. Now it's original!

It better be made out of pure gold that was mined out by the other Harmony Gold if their gonna label the thing original.

Here is your basic template for a Robotech panel (circa 2006 - 2009). Update just a teeny bit the announcements with "new writer(s) for Robotech LAM", "brand new" Toynami merchandise, awesome Palladium stuff nobody cares about.

At least we can take this as a sign that the RLAM is still a go. Since they announced the RLAM to the world rather then keeping it underwraps they got to at least speak to the fans. If the RLAM was shelved Kevin and Tommy would have canceled any scheduled Robotech panels, silently retreated to their offices of solitude, and post that it was all BW's fault for not recognizing HG's copyrights to their "original" series Robotech and scarying WB away with lawsuits so don't blame us fans blah blah blah.

I wonder if Tommy knew that Chuck Roven dropped out of Robotech a while back...

http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=com_c...8&Itemid=99

He and everyone else in HG that has been working with WB were probably the first to know. The video clips Chrisk linked with Tommy mentioning Roven's involvement were filmed on July 3rd 2008 at Anime Expo 2008 when Roven was still attached to the RLAM and way before the news that Roven had left was posted on January 29th 2009 in the very iesb.net article you linked.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Einherjar]

At least we can take this as a sign that the RLAM is still a go. Since they announced the RLAM to the world rather then keeping it underwraps they got to at least speak to the fans.

It's also a sign that they're still banking on the LAMR to fix the rut they're in when the 80's/Japanese revival trend is no longer a guaranteed money maker. They've halted work on everything else and waiting as long as they can for the film, it's either profit or bust for them now. That, toys and RPG books are realistically all that's left in the foreseeable future.