Robotech and HG License Debates

[Freiflug88]

FASA presumably saw the infamous 'letter' back in '95, so its likely Catalyst and Smith & Tinker know what legal ground they're standing on. they also seem to have a much firmer financial footing than FASA did in '95, and harmony gold would seem to be floundering.

FYI:

"Jordan Weisman, co-founder of FASA and co-creator of BattleTech, founded Smith and Tinker late in 2007, and acquired back the electronic rights to MechWarrior from Microsoft, along with the rights to make games with other FASA IP, including Crimson Skies and Shadowrun.

Although at the time Weisman didn't detail his plans for any of these properties, his move renewed fan enthusiasm and speculation for a new MechWarrior title which has persisted since."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24360

Weisman and his new BattleTech company probably know all too well about what went down over the "unseen" mechs and it looks like this time around they knew exactly who to call for permission to use the unseen mechs.

but with a retool like this can it be considered part of Robotech? The design, not only the color scheme, never appeared in Robotech animation to begin with. Not only does it make it non-canon to them, not including appearances in comics, it's an official product that really has nothing to do with Robotech except for vague similarities to the Veritech. There are some people in the Robotech fandom who would be critical about things like that, but if it catches attention and makes them money, why would HG care.

I can just see McKeaver talking to the hardcore fans angry over this:

"Your telling me that Robotech had nothing to do with the MDYRL Attack of the Bioroids dub? Just where to think the term "Bioroid" came from? *points to old Bioroid actionfiqure as he talks in his Angelo Dante impersonion* It was gonna be released Robotech: Do You Remember that We Will Win, but stuff happened. Hey did you guys know I was on an epidsode of Jackass?"

Edited July 11, 2009 by Freiflug88

[jenius]

EDIT: Getting back on topic, remember that Stealth VF-1S Veritech exclusive for Comic Con? It clearly has the design and Strike Pack from DYRL, but repackaged as a Robotech product. Basically, they took the Roy Focker VF-1S from their Macross 1/100 action figure line, gave it a new color scheme, and put the Robotech logo in the front of the packaging as seen here. Now, I can understand that they want to set themselves apart from all the Macross Valkyries coming out these days, but with a retool like this can it be considered part of Robotech? The design, not only the color scheme, never appeared in Robotech animation to begin with. Not only does it make it non-canon to them, not including appearances in comics, it's an official product that really has nothing to do with Robotech except for vague similarities to the Veritech. There are some people in the Robotech fandom who would be critical about things like that, but if it catches attention and makes them money, why would HG care.

Huh? What's wrong with them selling a non-canon VF-1 toy? What about the YF-1R, was there something wrong with that too? Is it the fact that they sell things as both Robotech and Macross that has you concerned? I'm confused.

It'll be funny if Battletech is some day larger than Robotech in its following. Heck, it's gotta be close already right? Didn't battletech have a cartoon?

[TheLoneWolf]

It can't be Harmony Gold. They got merchandising rights to any products bearing the names Macross in North America, but they don't have any rights over the actual Tomahawk or any other Mecha design in Macross. The Tomahawk and all other Macross Mecha design is the Intellectual Property of Big West.

You're confusing merchandising rights with intellectual property rights, re-read the first post again. Outside of Japan, if any of the SDF Macross mecha were to appear as a toy or in a video game, the deal would have to go through Harmony Gold. For example:

http://www.toynami.com/robotech.html

And we care how the mods at RT.com treat the members...Why? I'm going to make this point again.

Yapping about it here will do you absolutely no good.

Agreed. All this complaining is like listening to a 30 year old virgin complaining about a girl who dumped him in high school: get over it.

[Einherjar]

Huh? What's wrong with them selling a non-canon VF-1 toy? What about the YF-1R, was there something wrong with that too? Is it the fact that they sell things as both Robotech and Macross that has you concerned? I'm confused.

That's true, it's an animation error that became canon. But they also made a product prominently featuring the YF-1R, Robotech: Battlecry, around the time the toy came out. They even featured it on their website and everywhere else making it and the pilot canon. I thought that was a big selling point by Toynami to tie it in with the game back then. Here, the Stealth Veritech is coming out without anything similar. They're mislabeling it as something Robotech when it's technically coming from a different toy line Toynami has the rights to sell. True, Toynami can do that as a selling ploy, but it's kind of underhanded towards the fandom and customers, isn't it? And doesn't it go against the shift away from Macross either the company, HG but probably not Toynami, or fans wanted the series to go from now on?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

Agreed. All this complaining is like listening to a 30 year old virgin complaining about a girl who dumped him in high school: get over it.

"I didn't invite HER to the party, SHE invited ME! And then she just ignored me and left with Jimmy Peterson! JIMMY PETERSON!"

Huh? Oh, sorry.

Of course, I agree with you and Az. Fighting the powers that be is all well and good, but by now, I think we all know the rules of the RT.com game. If people want to play those rules, great. If they don't, well, it's HG's website and they can do whatever they see fit.

It has nothing to do with what goes on here...unless the members here want to breathe a word of thanks that Macross World is a pretty relaxed place.

Seto, I've said it before, I'll try not to say it again: I think you're a great guy. You're smart, funny, and enthusiastic, but you're playing a losing game over there, putting yourself through a lot of frustration for paltry gain.

Sometimes it feels like Plato's cave analogy, and you're the one who's been outside the cave, trying to explain the outside world to everyone else. Other times it just feels like watching someone pick incessantly at an old scab.

Do yourself a favor and get out before they force you out. Or else start lying through your teeth about how much you love Shadow Chronicles. Really, those are the only three options available to you now.

No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.

[Freiflug88]

You're confusing merchandising rights with intellectual property rights, re-read the first post again. Outside of Japan, if any of the SDF Macross mecha were to appear as a toy or in a video game, the deal would have to go through Harmony Gold. For example:

http://www.toynami.com/robotech.html

"However, they cannot create any new animation or movies using the SDF Macross characters and mecha because they do not have the intellectual property rights. Comic books and videogames are excluded as these fall under the category of merchandising rights."

Thanks, forgot about that part. So Smith and Tinker would have to get approval from Big West and Harmony Gold. HG's Merchandising rights cover the videogames, but they still would have had to use Big West's mecha designs, there intellectual property, to actually make the unseen mechs in the video game in the first place.

[Jasonc]

Mmmm, yummy Mechwarrior FTW. If it gets some good reviews, I'll be getting this game, and having a go of it. As for the licensing issues behind it. I hope someone's not waiting till the 11th hour to put out a C&D letter out. The game looks like it could be quite good...possibly.

[terry the lone wolf]

I can just see McKeaver talking to the hardcore fans angry over this:

"Your telling me that Robotech had nothing to do with the MDYRL Attack of the Bioroids dub? Just where to think the term "Bioroid" came from? *points to old Bioroid actionfiqure as he talks in his Angelo Dante impersonion* It was gonna be released Robotech: Do You Remember that We Will Win, but stuff happened. Hey did you guys know I was on an epidsode of Jackass?"

Wasn't it Clash of the Bionoids?

[Robelwell202]

Just where to think the term "Bioroid" came from?

Shirow Masamune's 'Appleseed', maybe?

Watch it, Kev. Read it even! You'd get a really good idea of how a REAL good Anime CG movie works, and how real manga works, too!

[Freiflug88]

Wasn't it Clash of the Bionoids?

Silly me. Remembered love, forgot the title.

Shirow Masamune's 'Appleseed', maybe?

Watch it, Kev. Read it even! You'd get a really good idea of how a REAL good Anime CG movie works, and how real manga works, too!

Never got into Appleseed, I hated the way the way the charaters were 3d CG rather then 2D. I also don't read a lot of manga, but it might be worth checking out. Big fan of Ghost in the Shell series, but I honestly only bothered reading Masamune's Ghost in the Shell manga after finding about the hot lesbian cyborg sex in a totally NSFW thread dedicated to the hot babes of Masamune Shirow's works .

[chrisk]

Just a thought, but Harmony Gold hinted they were going to release an "enemy mecha". Since the trend for the past three years has been Mospeada all the way, its easy to assume its going to be an Invid/Inbit Trooper.

Fair enough, but an Invid? What about the a Hovertank?!! If Toynami is low enough to brand DYRL toys as Robotech (in "limited" production), why can't they do the same with a Hovertank? *sigh*

[Robelwell202]

Never got into Appleseed, I hated the way the way the charaters were 3d CG rather then 2D. I also don't read a lot of manga, but it might be worth checking out. Big fan of Ghost in the Shell series, but I honestly only bothered reading Masamune's Ghost in the Shell manga after finding about the hot lesbian cyborg sex in a totally NSFW thread dedicated to the hot babes of Masamune Shirow's works .

PM Me a link?

[Freiflug88]

Fair enough, but an Invid? What about the a Hovertank?!! If Toynami is low enough to brand DYRL toys as Robotech (in "limited" production), why can't they do the same with a Hovertank? *sigh*

Hovertanks! Of course Harmony Gold will get Sergant Bilko himself to design the Hovertanks toys! http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi75956505/

PM Me a link?

Already done. Its not showing up in my sent folder for some reason though. Let me know if you didn't receive the PM for some reason.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Seto Kaiba]

Just a thought, but Harmony Gold hinted they were going to release an "enemy mecha". Since the trend for the past three years has been Mospeada all the way, its easy to assume its going to be an Invid/Inbit Trooper.

Yeah, they've hinted that a few times in the past, but nothing has ever materialized. The closest they've done were those limited-edition bookends that had a Regult on one end.

Fair enough, but an Invid? What about the a Hovertank?!! If Toynami is low enough to brand DYRL toys as Robotech (in "limited" production), why can't they do the same with a Hovertank? *sigh*

While Harmony Gold's marketing department may not have a solid grip on reality, their minds aren't completely out to lunch... they know full well that Masterpiece ANYTHING from the Masters Saga/Southern Cross won't sell. They did a poll a while back on their official site, asking what saga was the fanbase's favorite, and the results were pretty predictable... the vast majority voted Macross, a small but significant number voted New Generation, and almost nobody voted Masters. Fan interest in Masters Saga toys has ALWAYS been low... most fans detest the entire saga on principle. There have been a few petitions for Masters Saga merchandise beyond the Southern Cross Army mug and sweatshirt, but they usually peter out after the same five or six signatures.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Southern Cross is the redheaded stepsaga of Robotech.

[Radd]

Though, why comic books and videogames are considered merchandise and not derivatives is a mystery. It's got the same sort of logic that dictates a packet of ketchup being two servings of vegetables I guess. They're clearly derivatives. So are books, for that matter. In reality, if not law.

[Freiflug88]

Though, why comic books and videogames are considered merchandise and not derivatives is a mystery. It's got the same sort of logic that dictates a packet of ketchup being two servings of vegetables I guess. They're clearly derivatives. So are books, for that matter. In reality, if not law.

I think comic books and videogames are considered just merchandise by copyright law because they are relatively new in the history of copyright laws and no body has changed the copyright laws to categorize them as Intellectual property rather then general Merchandise. It remembers of what someone said about the Watchmen movie though and how today comic books are the only works of literature where the actual writer doesn't own the copyright, but that it used to be the same way with Movie scripts when movies were new.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Keith]

Should we take bets that this "enemy mecha" is just a repainted VF-1/Legioss with some backstory of how it was stolen & taken over by the "enemy"

Edited July 12, 2009 by Keith

[VF5SS]

Big West owns merchandising rights to Southern Cross. Note the Big West sticker. So this isn't like Mospeada where they can attempt to collaborate with Japanese toy makers in order to capture a wider market. They would have to go through Big West but they don't care enough to try.

Edited July 12, 2009 by VF5SS

[chrisk]

Of course Harmony Gold will get Sergant Bilko himself to design the Hovertanks toys!

I remember watching that after "The Stupids" on HBO... Um... Better than McHale's Navy?

...they know full well that Masterpiece ANYTHING from the Masters Saga/Southern Cross won't sell.

I heard the final nail on the coffin was when the

flopped... But that was in the 80's. It's pretty clear starving Robotech fans have come to the point where they will buy anything with the "Robotech" brand.

Yeah, they've hinted that a few times in the past, but nothing has ever materialized.

Well, we can pretty much guess what's their "giant" San Diego announcement... Invid!! Woohoo!!!

I think it's pretty safe to say that Southern Cross is the redheaded stepsaga of Robotech.

Sadly, I liked it better than Macross II...

Big West owns merchandising rights to Southern Cross. Note the Big West sticker. So this isn't like Mospeada where they can attempt to collaborate with Japanese toy makers in order to capture a wider market. They would have to go through Big West but they don't care enough to try.

Wow... That's new to me... and pretty much ends my hope of seeing a Hovertank. Wonder how Matchbox got the rights without BW getting in their way...

[VF5SS]

Tatsunoko might have the international merchandising rights. However the fact that they cannot collaborate with the Japanese market is a serious impediment. And if Big West has to authorize Southern Cross toys, how willing are they to do so for a Tatsunoko show?

[Jasonc]

How old are those model kits? Is it possible that the court decisions were made after the kits were released, and that HG has the same legal claims to that, as they do with Macross?

[Freiflug88]

Should we take bets that this "enemy mecha" is just a repainted VF-1/Legioss with some backstory of how it was stolen & taken over by the "enemy" smile.gif

Yeah they could easily make it the Shadow fighter piloted by that evil Shadow human/invid from the Robotech: Invasion game.

And if Big West has to authorize Southern Cross toys, how willing are they to do so for a Tatsunoko show?

Wasn't Southern Cross another joint Super Dimensional project between Big West and Tatsunoko? Regardless if Tatsunko makes the toys and has them licensed by Big West then that is just easy money for the license holder Big West. I'd imagine the only reason Big West would deny new Southern Cross toys from being made is to prevent more toys from being repackaged and sold under the Robotech banner.

[jenius]

On the "Enemy mecha" tip I think you guys may be forgetting all the mock-ups they had of the 1/100 Regult to go with their 1/100 line-up at last year's comic-con. If HG is going to make an enemy mecha a $14.99 Regult to go with that line seems an easy guess to me. Heck, the next wave will probably be a GBP armor, a Regult, and a VF-1S Focker (because he needs to be in every wave apparently. Yeah, I'm kidding about the Focker.

Have they even hinted at a big comic-con announcement? I'll be at comic-con and I planned on thoroughly checking out their scene but I figured this year had STALL written all over it. Heck, their big Anime Expo news was a synchro cannon Beta... something we saw pictures of over a year ago.

[Einherjar]

Have they even hinted at a big comic-con announcement?

For Comic-Con, they will sell the Stealth Veritech there exclusively but no other news so far. They also hinted 25th anniversary celebrations for Robotech at various conventions and events throughout the year. Does anyone know what that could mean?

Besides toys, I expect another reprint of the series on DVD or Blu-Ray on the way with more "improvements."

[Einherjar]

A quick question, is the Revell still involved in Robotech and do they have a license to release any of the toys and models?

Edited July 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[jenius]

I just got some juicy Robotech merchandising info. I'll ask Toynami about it at Comic-con if they haven't let the cat out of the bag by then. Regardless, I'll be posting a blog about it the first night of the event whether it's rumor or if they confirm it

[DarrinG]

Didn't the synchro cannons on the Beta totally back-fire in SC? -- as they went to go shoot them off the enemy (who supposedly designed them or something) used them to blow up the fighters carrying them?

Anyhow - a giant stupid pink beta for a stupid shallow character is hardly what I'm anxious for. I'm trying my best to pretend the SC doesn't exist.

Does HG think a pink beta would sell better than a non-transformable Inbit Commander ship ( that you could release in 3 color variations with NO design re-work ) ??? s i g h

Its this type of thinking that makes it hard to believe in a bright future for some of the designs and characters we hold dear . . .

----

Oooooo - hey - maybe Aoshima will have great sales success with their betas and decide to tool up some enemy mechs in scale for THEIR fans -?-

THEN - and only then - might HG take a chance and re-package something someone else has done and cash in . . .

[Einherjar]

Its this type of thinking that makes it hard to believe in a bright future for some of the designs and characters we hold dear

It's only HG's interpretation of all the characters being watered down, the original versions of them are still okay I guess.

[Ginrai]

A quick question, is the Revell still involved in Robotech and do they have a license to release any of the toys and models?

I can answer this. No. Revell sold the Robotech name to Harmony Gold in the '90s. It's why the newer releases no longer have Revell trademark info on them.

[Seto Kaiba]

For Comic-Con, they will sell the Stealth Veritech there exclusively but no other news so far. They also hinted 25th anniversary celebrations for Robotech at various conventions and events throughout the year. Does anyone know what that could mean?

From what I've heard so far, the "celebrations" for Robotech's 25th anniversary aren't going to be anything worth writing home about... most of what I've heard about is fan-organized get-togethers. They'll probably trot out some sort of "25 years of Robotech" video at a special panel discussion each time (brace yourself for many dramatic accounts of how they spent 1987-1999 giving Carl Macek piggyback rides).

Besides toys, I expect another reprint of the series on DVD or Blu-Ray on the way with more "improvements."

Eh, I can maybe see them announcing a few more MPCs (probably Marcus with a "Super Shadow Fighter" and the Shadow Beta) and maybe the renewal of the super-poseable line, but another DVD re-release? Not bloody likely, they're still trying to convince people that Robotech Remastered and the Protoculture Collection are worth buying.

Didn't the synchro cannons on the Beta totally back-fire in SC? -- as they went to go shoot them off the enemy (who supposedly designed them or something) used them to blow up the fighters carrying them?

Yeah. That's how the wisecracking cardboard cutout "best buddy" character died.

[Seto Kaiba]

On another note... I've heard from a few fairly reliable fans who still attend Harmony Gold's increasingly feeble convention panels that the forthcoming Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles game that they were hyping not too long ago will be, as we predicted, a cell phone game.

[Save]

I just got some juicy Robotech merchandising info. I'll ask Toynami about it at Comic-con if they haven't let the cat out of the bag by then. Regardless, I'll be posting a blog about it the first night of the event whether it's rumor or if they confirm it

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Einherjar]

Eh, I can maybe see them announcing a few more MPCs (probably Marcus with a "Super Shadow Fighter" and the Shadow Beta) and maybe the renewal of the super-poseable line, but another DVD re-release? Not bloody likely, they're still trying to convince people that Robotech Remastered and the Protoculture Collection are worth buying.

Maybe repackage the Protoculture Collection and add a 25th anniversary sticker or something to acknowledge the achievement of just existing that long, that's the improvement. They released a new version of the Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada collections recently, maybe to them it's due for another one to make money.

[VF5SS]

Who cares what Toynami is doing. Even their partnership with Bandai shows that both companies are out of touch.

[DarrinG]

I care what HG or Toynami is doing, or ANY company that might break from the collectables we've been seeing and do some great enemy figures to match some of the popular scales out there.

"Juicy" Robotech info? Jenius, I personally classify 'Juicy' as something we would not expect. If its predictable please re-classify as 'Interesting' Robotech info and let me down easy . . .