Currently watching Macross 7

[SpacyAce2012]

Indeed.

[Keith]

BOMBA!

[SpacyAce2012]

BOMBA!

Tell 'em, brother!

[Knight26]

Don't remember if this was asked before so will put it here instead of starting a new thread. I remember long ago Graham, or Shawn, or Egan, not sure who said that Mac-7 would not be imported to the US not just because of the HG issue, but because of the cost of liscencing the music would be too high. Now I wonder how the heck can that be when Cowboy Bebop is stateside and it has as much if not more music then Mac-7. Did they find some way around that or is the record company just going to charge that much more for Mac-7's music?

[sketchley]

I'm taking a guess here, but it is probably due to the cost of purchasing the rights for distribution + all of the other costs of production and advertising, vs. an estimate of how many sales/much profit the release will get.

Given the number of Macross fans here, in a Macross fan site, that vocally dislike the series, it is doubtful that Macross 7 would earn enough profit to even break even.

So, IMHO, I don't believe it is just the music. Mind you, the Macross 7 music catalogue is rather large, and as it includes music from other Macross series, purchasing the music distribution rights may mean also needing to purchase the distribution rights for the other series as well. But this is all my guess.

[jenius]

Something else to consider, companies are getting much more savvy to all the implications of DVD distribution. In the US there were several TV shows that were released with different music than they originally aired with because the rights to said music had expired (don't ask me to name a single one, I don't buy TV shows on DVD... except Firefly). Now when the rights contracts are being negotiated they include reference to future DVD sales. This may very well be what happend with Cowboy Bebop and did not happen with Mac7.

[JB0]

Something else to consider, companies are getting much more savvy to all the implications of DVD distribution. In the US there were several TV shows that were released with different music than they originally aired with because the rights to said music had expired (don't ask me to name a single one, I don't buy TV shows on DVD... except Firefly).

I think I saw Friends listed as an example. Some popular songs were used in it and got stripped out for DVDs.

I may just be thinking Friends because it's the only name in the "vapid stupidity" genre I recognize.

And it wasn't so much the rights expired as they never had rights for anything other than broadcast to begin with.

Now when the rights contracts are being negotiated they include reference to future DVD sales. This may very well be what happend with Cowboy Bebop and did not happen with Mac7.

I was under the impression it had something to do with the whole "Fire Bomber is a real band" angle, though I'm not really sure.

[azrael]

I was under the impression it had something to do with the whole "Fire Bomber is a real band" angle, though I'm not really sure.

Well, they are, i.e. HUMMING BIRD. M7 does use lots of music from other Macross series. Which means you will have to pay those artists/song writers royalties. And given how the Japanese Recording industry is, it's like the RIAA on drugs. Once you talk to Bandai about distribution (no sweat), then you need to talk to Victor Entertainment about music (where most of the negotiations lay). Then, once you are done there, you need to come back and talk to Manga Entertainment and AnimeTrax and or JVC (I'm not sure if their license for the music has expired yet). And once that is done, then you have to deal with HG and see if they have an issue with "Macross" in the name and various elements of SDFM that appear in M7 that they may have rights to (and you know they'll complain). If you take out the music of M7, you kinda "kill" much of the feel of the series. Unless you want to suffer a song remake ala Robotech.

So sketchley's point is valid. Once you finish all the motions of just licensing the thing, you'll have spent lots of time and money per episode. At that point, it may not be economically feasible to license it, especially if the projected returns are too small. The music license is a deciding factor, but IIRC at an AX panel, it boiled down to money. Just working on the 1st few episodes would cost one most of the funds.

[Keith]

It actually has to do with "who" owns the songs more than just how much the songs are. In the case of Macross 7, it requries both the Big West license, and a seperate license from Victor for the music, the problem apparently being Victor. Considering the show is now 13 years old, it's likely now less a problem of expensive music rights, and more the risk of a 13 year old series.

Also note that while there are some vocal anti-Macross 7 Macross fans, the feeling in the general anime community is hardly reflective of that, especially since most of the problems these supposed "Macross" fans have with 7, are things that pop up in most popular anime.

[Zinjo]

It actually has to do with "who" owns the songs more than just how much the songs are. In the case of Macross 7, it requries both the Big West license, and a seperate license from Victor for the music, the problem apparently being Victor. Considering the show is now 13 years old, it's likely now less a problem of expensive music rights, and more the risk of a 13 year old series.

Also note that while there are some vocal anti-Macross 7 Macross fans, the feeling in the general anime community is hardly reflective of that, especially since most of the problems these supposed "Macross" fans have with 7, are things that pop up in most popular anime.

It's more the idea that at the time of Pokemon and Sailor Moon it would have had a market, but anime fans are more sophisitcated now and are not going to sit through a J-pop kiddie show, when they can see GITS, Eureka 7, Ergo Proxy, etc...

These "supposed 'Macross' fans" are indeed fans, just not Kawamori automoton minions who hang on every droplet of spit coming out of the man's mouth... Every creative person has produced crap SK is no exception...

Some like the show, some don't, other's are on the fence and others really don't care either way, they just like what they like.

Keith will find a very difficult time "proving" what an 'actual Macross' fan is on these boards as I doubt "his" definition would survive the debate by the many who do not subscribe to it.

The time for Mac 7 has come and gone, dispite the very real probability of a weak return on investment for a heavily music reliant (in a foreign language no less) series that is 49 episodes long.

Edited January 30, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

The time for Mac 7 has come and gone, dispite the very real probability of a weak return on investment for a heavily music reliant (in a foreign language no less) series that is 49 episodes long.

Agreed. Everything else is irrelevant once a show has passed it's 'best before' date. Even Macross Zero is coming up to that 'dated' deadline...

[azrael]

I don't see length or vintage as big of a problem as much as the financial projections for the series (or are just part of the bigger picture). Naruto is a young series, but it is extremely long (200+ and still going) and yet it has made it here. Inu Yasha went on for 167 episodes and is only a little older than Naruto. Same for Sailor Moon, Pokemon, blah blah blah.

The bottom line is money. How much (time and money) will they have to spend on it? Who is the intended fanbase. How large are they? What are the numbers? In the end, the costs will probably outweigh any factor and that is the bottom line of any company.

[Zinjo]

I don't see length or vintage as big of a problem as much as the financial projections for the series (or are just part of the bigger picture). Naruto is a young series, but it is extremely long (200+ and still going) and yet it has made it here. Inu Yasha went on for 167 episodes and is only a little older than Naruto. Same for Sailor Moon, Pokemon, blah blah blah.

The bottom line is money. How much (time and money) will they have to spend on it? Who is the intended fanbase. How large are they? What are the numbers? In the end, the costs will probably outweigh any factor and that is the bottom line of any company.

Very true, however the key to any successful series is timing, films and series that were hits back in their day would likely fall flat today. Story and production quality are also key, but the three need to combine to create a hit.

The potential fanbase for Mac 7 is growing up and are not being replaced in the same numbers, thus the target demographic is shrinking.

The benefit Naruto & Inu Yasha have is that they are long enough to "carry" their fanbases along with the series, whereas others are not so fortunate and to attract new kids to a series is getting more and more difficult.

[danth]

Question for anyone who knows: did the song "Diamond Calling" appear anywhere in the TV series, movie or OVA?

[sketchley]

This is a tough line being drawn into the arguement. On the one hand, there are old (some could say ancient) series that are getting exported and translated into English (Dr. Slump, Dragon Ball, etc..) However, there is a difference between those and Macross 7. I'd summarize that as 'mass appeal.' Therefore, the question is: does Macross 7 have the mass appeal to bring in the profit? We've already got the answer from the companies who are involved with importing and translating anime...

[Keith]

Take a lot at the bulk of anime being released today, Macross 7 is still qutie viable. Hell, we just got GaoGaiGar!

As for Diamond Calling, it didn't pop-up in the series proper, but it is in one of the Plus shorts.

[Zinjo]

This is a tough line being drawn into the arguement. On the one hand, there are old (some could say ancient) series that are getting exported and translated into English (Dr. Slump, Dragon Ball, etc..) However, there is a difference between those and Macross 7. I'd summarize that as 'mass appeal.' Therefore, the question is: does Macross 7 have the mass appeal to bring in the profit? We've already got the answer from the companies who are involved with importing and translating anime...

I'd suggest it's achillies heel is it's heavy reliance on the music.

It's one thing for anime fans to listen to a Japanese opening/ending theme and even a few songs peppered over the course of a series, but Mac 7 has a song and a battle EVERY episode. Often it is the same song sung over and over in the beginning. Translated lyrics recorded by the original musicians becomes necessary.

Without translated lyrics, re-recorded by the artists, it doesn't have the same potential impact. Thus the expense of doing that for 49 episodes, weighed against the potential "mass appeal" of the series would make any distributor very reluctant.

[azrael]

I still say length is not a big an issue as you claim it to be. As Keith stated, GaoGaiGar is a good example. A 49-episode series. Vintage is only 1997/1998. Back in the day, people feared Marmalade Boy would never get licensed as it was a 76-episode series. People said it was too long and it got licensed. So length and vintage aren't really big problems.

Itemizing how many times a song appears in a show doesn't make much sense. Opening and ending themes appear in every episode. Image songs can appear in every episode. That's a headache to itemize it like that. It's much easier to itemize it by individual song, not how many times a song appears in any given show. And that would probably be covered by a larger license. If I donate to some cause several times a year, I don't report on my taxes when and how much per donation I have donated, I just report the total amount donated. The music can be M7's Achillies' heel, but not as how many times any given song appears in the show, but more as how many songs there are in the show.

[sketchley]

Actually, the number of times the same music is repeated, is a strong point for Macross 7 - from the perspective of importers.

Just think: they only have to pay for the translation once, and simply copy and paste the results of the translation (subtitles or whatever) whenever the song appears. That's probably why the producers of Macross 7 did that in the first place *

*Yes, I know, the real reason was because they were hyping the music so good Macross fans would go and buy it - and if they played a new song every week, no song would get any type of momentum at the music shop to really bring in the money. We must remember that Macross 7 was originally meant to be viewed 1 episode per week, not 4/8/12 in a row, in one sitting.

[Zinjo]

The album of songs is what I was leaning towards in my post, albeit it wasn't very clear.

I believe the key to this is what sketchley has already posted, which is essentially an ROI analysis.

How popular "could" this series be in the show's targetted demographic in the Western market against how much will it cost to license the show and music along with the costs of dubbing, marketing and any potential challenge by HG regarding the name of the show (it may not be an issue, but as a distributor, they will have to factor such a thing in).

Granted the show itself is designed to be seen once a week, but even Western fans are going to begin wondering how often anyone can hear "Planet Dance"? It is featured in what, the first 10 episodes exclusively?

[Valkyrie addict]

I think I could live if they release Macross 7 with no music license on the US, hell, just leave him mute on the battle sequence and it would be better than the original

[jenius]

What are Hanson doing these days? They could totally replace the original music!

M7 was never released because not enough people were ever going to buy it... that hasn't changed. Don't let Keith fool you, there is a small vocal minority that like M7... most people are repulsed by it. I think there have even been polls on this forum to support that.

[Scream Man]

i just got one of the sets and i have to say....i kinda like it.

Im about 30 eps in, and yeah its a silly series, but its still kinda fun. its not the BEST of the Macross series by any means, but its still a bit of a grin fest

[Keith]

You all deserve to be locked in a room with robotech vocal soundtracks blarring into your ears for your blaphemy!

[Zinjo]

You all deserve to be locked in a room with robotech vocal soundtracks blarring into your ears for your blaphemy!

Robotech had a soundtrack? I always thought it was drunk voice actors singing at a karaoke a bar...

Edited February 2, 2007 by Zinjo

[danth]

I just realized something. I think the major failing of Macross 7 is that it features one of it's most mediocre songs -- Planet Dance -- in the first ten episodes. You get tired of hearing it and it's not all that great anyway. In one way it's a good thing because it saves the stronger music for later in the series when the stakes are higher. But it also, obviously, turns a lot of people off to the series.

If they had started with Totsugeki Love Heart, which is an awesome song, and then switched over to the adorable My Friends after two or three episodes, Macross 7 would be much more appealing.

Hey Keith, where can I get more Macross 7-like music? I bought a Best of Jam Project CD and it was pretty decent. What else is out there?

[kensei]

I'm trying to find genuine CDs myself. Especially the ones with Emillia and Basara's Heart and Soul and the acoustic version of Remember 16.

[Eaglearcher]

Macross 7 would have been golden if it's got trimmed down to 20 something episode, ditch Planet Dance and put in more Holy Lonely Night.

[danth]

Macross 7 would have been golden if it's got trimmed down to 20 something episode, ditch Planet Dance and put in more Holy Lonely Night.

I could agree to that.

I'm trying to find genuine CDs myself. Especially the ones with Emillia and Basara's Heart and Soul and the acoustic version of Remember 16.

If you're responding to me, just so you know, JAM Project are the people who did the Macross 7 music (or at least some of them), but the Best of CD didn't have any actual Macross 7 songs.

EDIT: Open question. Why do people call Macross 7 music "kiddie J-pop"? I object to both kiddie and pop. It sounds like J-Rock to me -- the Japanese equivalent of Def Leppard or Journey. Okay, Planet Dance is poppy, but almost everything else sounds like rock. And why kiddie? I find the music to be very complex and smart, not simple or derivative. The musicians and singers were obviously extremely talented. Again, Planet Dance is an exception. And admittedly, I freaking hate Power to the People.

Edited February 3, 2007 by danth

[Scream Man]

Robotech had a soundtrack? I always thought it was drunk voice actors singing at a karaoke a bar...

Actually, i always really liked the voice cast of Robotech, except minmei. I thought everyone elses voice suited their character to a T, and still think so to this day.

[sketchley]

EDIT: Open question. Why do people call Macross 7 music "kiddie J-pop"? I object to both kiddie and pop. It sounds like J-Rock to me -- the Japanese equivalent of Def Leppard or Journey. Okay, Planet Dance is poppy, but almost everything else sounds like rock. And why kiddie? I find the music to be very complex and smart, not simple or derivative. The musicians and singers were obviously extremely talented. Again, Planet Dance is an exception. And admittedly, I freaking hate Power to the People.

You're not the first to question: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry454687

As for their opinions - call it a mix between not paying attention, and wanting to use demeaning adjectives (but ending up using wrong descriptors) to voice their negative opinion on it.

EDIT: I should probably add that the posters who say that most likely have different musical tastes and their opinion of rock (and probably what they consider as good rock) music is different. I think we all can agree that the rock music in "Macross 7" isn't hard edged (say like the stuff in "The Matrix",) but it is just as much rock music as Elvis Presley - who is also nothing like the harder edged stuff. Opinionation is alive and well here...

Edited February 4, 2007 by sketchley

[JB0]

What are Hanson doing these days? They could totally replace the original music!

M7 was never released because not enough people were ever going to buy it... that hasn't changed. Don't let Keith fool you, there is a small vocal minority that like M7... most people are repulsed by it. I think there have even been polls on this forum to support that.

Polls that only show it when the viewer REALLY REALLY wants them to.

The BIG thing stopping M7(and most other Macross projects) is Harmony Gold, IMO. I'm pretty sure someone would've brought it over just to leech a bit off of the "sequel to the first half of Robotech" angle if they could've gotten away with it.

Macross 7 would have been golden if it's got trimmed down to 20 something episode, ditch Planet Dance and put in more Holy Lonely Night.

YES!

Planet Dance was okay once or twice. But it really got beat to death with the series as-is.

[Zinjo]

Polls that only show it when the viewer REALLY REALLY wants them to.

Both camps are guilty of such polls JB...

I haven't seen a truly objective poll question on the subject yet, and I'm sure most would just roll their eyes if yet another poll showed up...

The BIG thing stopping M7(and most other Macross projects) is Harmony Gold, IMO. I'm pretty sure someone would've brought it over just to leech a bit off of the "sequel to the first half of Robotech" angle if they could've gotten away with it.

Well I suspect it isn't actully HG, but the fear of having to front the cash to put on a real legal challenge to HG's claims on everything Macross.

With the Japanese court decisions and the lack of copyright defence on the Macross Plus and Macross II licensing, HG would be just as nervous going to court as any challenging distributor.

Winning a court case costs lots of money that no one is willing to spend.

In the new Shadow Chronicles no references to Macross is seen AT ALL. The original design for "Liberty Station" had the Macross kite all over it, but from what I saw in the new movie, all of those references were absent.

Which is not surprising, since Mospeada is undisputedly owned by Tatsunoko and if HG wants to market it in Japan as a possible sequel to Mospeada, they can't have any Big West copyrighted material in it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the J-pop kiddie show of Macross 7, that is simply what it is. J-Pop is Japanese popular music and at the time of the show, Humming Bird's music was very popular!

It is a kiddie show IMO since that is the demographic they were aiming for and they successfully acheived their goal, simple as that.

It is unfortunate if some are offended by it, but it is what it is.

The Mac II haters employ the same "demeaning adjectives" and dismissive statements in regards to that show. That is their opinion, fine.

Sometimes I'm offended by it, but I chose to either ignore it or roll up my sleeves and debate their position. I don't expect to change their minds, I just intend to make my position heard.

I am not one of those fans who will hold up a show higher than what it deserves. I prefer Mac II over Mac 7, however I have no illusions about what the faults of the show are.

I like parts and elements of Mac 7, not all of it and it certainly doesn't even register as one of Kawamori's better works IMO.

Some love it in it's entirety and that's fine, someone should I guess...

Edited February 4, 2007 by Zinjo

[JB0]

Both camps are guilty of such polls JB...

I haven't seen a truly objective poll question on the subject yet, and I'm sure most would just roll their eyes if yet another poll showed up...

True.

Both camps are also guilty of interpreting the (very limited) data as supporting their side.

"Hey, out of 30 people, x percent responded this way to this poll with intentionally biased options! Clearly everyone in the world feels like I do!"

Well I suspect it isn't actully HG, but the fear of having to front the cash to put on a real legal challenge to HG's claims on everything Macross.

With the Japanese court decisions and the lack of copyright defence on the Macross Plus and Macross II licensing, HG would be just as nervous going to court as any challenging distributor.

Winning a court case costs lots of money that no one is willing to spend.

Not disagreeing. I don't think anyone really believes HG has what they say they have, but everyone believes they can make it too expensive to be worth their effort.

In the new Shadow Chronicles no references to Macross is seen AT ALL. The original design for "Liberty Station" had the Macross kite all over it, but from what I saw in the new movie, all of those references were absent.

They removed it totally? I wasn't following things too closely.

Last I'd heard, they were going to be using a redesigned lopsided kite.

[sketchley]

As for the J-pop kiddie show of Macross 7, that is simply what it is. J-Pop is Japanese popular music and at the time of the show, Humming Bird's music was very popular!

I'll give you points for that creative interpretation. HOWEVER, in English, pop music is different from rock music, and even though rock music could become popular music (ergo pop-music in the most loose sense), it is generally and exclusively classified as rock music (often a sub-genre of it, and not the all-inclusive, general, interpretation of rock music.)

Therefore, the point stands: Macross 7, specifically the music of the main group, Firebomber, is J-rock, not J-pop.*

I could care less about people's opinions on it (kiddie, or otherwise,) just that they accurately or adequatly describe it.

*Of course, if you classify bands like L'Arc~en~Ciel and X Japan as J-pop, then feel free to classify Macross 7, specifically Firebomber's music, as J-pop. Nevermind the legions of rock fans that will be upset in the process.