Currently watching Macross 7

[Valkyrie addict]

Basara was just at the right moment in the right place for his singing

I don't think the writers sat down and said "let's make a character so people can debate if he's a messiah or not" the main reason why Basara is so discussed is basicly cause he's not the 'perfect hero' sort of speak that everyone is accostumed to see, he's more like the anti-hero that ends up helping to save the day in a big way, and it's controversial as in, how can a character with so many flaws and never changes be the saviour in such a perfect way...

it's just a different approuch for Basara, since the beginning of the series, he already had all that was needed to win and that's why he's seen as a saviour, he didn't had to learn anything or do anything out of character, he just had to be himself apart from the usual flawed hero in anime that needs to grow and learn certain abilities to reach his main goal

[NeoverseOmega]

Hmmm, that's certainly a way of looking at it - I just have a hard time believing that in an anime that seems so deliberately constructed that Basara's abilities at that place at that time were intended to be a coincidence. Heh, kind of like in Lord of the Rings when Gandalf points out that evil forces aren't the only things at work, Bilbo must have been intended to have the ring and by extension so is Frodo. As a whole music (and love) in Macross seems to take on a vast, almost holy role. At least it appears that way to me - so many massive catastrophes have been averted because of changes in heart so collossal they almost appear magical (although I'm sure all the people that got wiped out in the Zentraedi annihilation of earth would have loved that change of heart to come sooner). Sure, it may be a happy coincidence, but so many happy coincidences occured (spilling a mix of human and Zentraedi blood close enough to the Protoculture relic to get it to open up for them for example) that it's hard not to see it as either a grander plan, or simply an allegory. Of course if Macross 7 is an allegory then coincidence almost has to be thrown out the window because even the coincidences are likely to reflect a meaning. That and it's interesting that Basara gets a title - he didn't really have to be called anything like "Anima Spiritia" - his effect could have simply worked and confused the daylights out of the protodeviln. It seems like the writers intended Basara to be extremely significant, and not just to the ship he is living on. Although calling him a messiah might be a bit of a stretch, a kind of metaphorical prophet maybe, but that's about as far as it goes in my eyes anyway. But let's face it, later on he touches the heart of a space whale and a macronized Zentraedi - their has to be some intention to make Basara's repetitive singing a pretty cosmic power because it would be so easy for the writers to let him get humiliated and nearly destroyed. One stray missile, or one protodeviln that just reaally hated Planet Dance and Basara would learn his lesson pretty quickly. Okay, it might take multiple - he's just that hard headed, but I think even he would figure it out after failing miserably and almost dying a few times.

Instead his tactics always end up working - even on the stubborn humans on M7 who really don't want to listen initially. That has to be in the agenda of the writers - again, it would be easy to make him fail on the people around him so that the issue of the protodeviln just looks like a lucky fluke.

Although I definately agree that Basara is not the perfect hero - he sometimes loses his temper, he has to struggle to live up to his own ideals and fails from time to time. They made him human. But things just work out too well and too consistently in a fashion that supports a very specific agenda. Of course maybe I'm just projecting, but it seems awfully tight in that regard - something that's supposed to look like coincidence has to have more chaos in the workings. Maybe it's there, but I don't see it.

Edited April 29, 2007 by NeoverseOmega

[sketchley]

That and I suspect that if the Sound Force Valks had avoided the Glam Rock look and the Protodeviln were portrayed in a way that was actually frightening, it would have been a lot easier to enjoy - but again, some of this might be cultural as well. The styles of modern American Rock have as a whole rejected that look, so what makes us cringe might have seemed like something a Rock and Roll Star would do with his personal plane in Japan. Haven't we had celebrities with bright pink limos with gold rims? I'd like to say the same might apply to the Protodeviln, but from what little I know of Japanese mythology and themes, they don't seem like they much apply.

It's funny how the more you look at a piece of another persons creation, you end up discovering elements of yourself in the interpretation. And elements of the other people discussing it of course.

Rock is different, and does take a little bit of getting used to, here in Japan. I encourage readers to do some research into the various musical acts, past and present, from Japan. It may help viewers towards the thinking of "it's not just Macross 7".

The Protodevlin "twins" (for lack of a better name, I can't remember their actual names; the two with many arms) remind me of Indo-Buddhist gods. There is a rough design in Kazutaka Miyatake's Macross and Orguss Design works that reminds me of a Japanese mask; which are generally based off of Shinto mythological gods and spiritial beings. I'm not sure if that particular design made it into the final anime. Nevertheless, it does go to show that a healthy understanding of Japanese culture (and not pop or entertainment culture) will uncover some of the deeper meanings and intentions of the series.

Again, I must stress that I interpret the show as one made for and marketed to teenagers. However, it is not as shallow as some of the Macross "fans" here pigeon-hole it as.

[Dio]

Although calling him a messiah might be a bit of a stretch, a kind of metaphorical prophet maybe, but that's about as far as it goes in my eyes anyway. But let's face it, later on he touches the heart of a space whale and a macronized Zentraedi - their has to be some intention to make Basara's repetitive singing a pretty cosmic power because it would be so easy for the writers to let him get humiliated and nearly destroyed. One stray missile, or one protodeviln that just reaally hated Planet Dance and Basara would learn his lesson pretty quickly. Okay, it might take multiple - he's just that hard headed, but I think even he would figure it out after failing miserably and almost dying a few times.

Instead his tactics always end up working - even on the stubborn humans on M7 who really don't want to listen initially. That has to be in the agenda of the writers - again, it would be easy to make him fail on the people around him so that the issue of the protodeviln just looks like a lucky fluke.

Although I definately agree that Basara is not the perfect hero - he sometimes loses his temper, he has to struggle to live up to his own ideals and fails from time to time. They made him human. But things just work out too well and too consistently in a fashion that supports a very specific agenda. Of course maybe I'm just projecting, but it seems awfully tight in that regard - something that's supposed to look like coincidence has to have more chaos in the workings. Maybe it's there, but I don't see it.

A slight aside from the hero/messiah debate...

I don't try to apply a critical, mature analysis to Basara because I don't think that's the way he's meant to be viewed. I'd classify Basara as "naive and hard-headed" rather than "selfish." He's like a child - he sees the world through his own rose-colored John Lennon glasses (and not just metaphorically!), and fails to understand why others might not see things the same way he does. Sure enough, Basara is most frequently seen among fans, his band-mates, and hot vampire alien chicks who want to jump his bones - and in the scenes where he's positioned next to the "grown-up" characters (Max & Millia - prime examples) he rarely deals on the same level as they do, usually ending up leaving the scene in a temper tantrum or frustrating the heck out of them. His personality and actions would be very appropriate for a character younger than Mylene, but in order to put him in a Valkyrie and have it make sense, the character had to be post-adolescent, physically.

In contrast, Gamlin is the character meant to appeal to more mature fans. He's the character who deals with the mature issues of love and loss, doing the right thing versus following orders, and maintaining order through responsibility. He's been through school and training. His hair is combed, his uniforms pressed, and his actions are predictable because he is surrounded by stability. Occasionally, that stability is upset for comic relief and character development, but his first personal goal is always to return to that stable condition.

Both of these characters are diametrically opposed to one another. Basara wonders why the bad guys ran off without letting him finish his song. Gamlin is left to survey the wreckage and unconscious/dead bodies of his fellow soldiers, and file a report. Childish naivete vs adult realism.

And to add another kerosene-soaked log to this fire... we have Mylene. She's the character at the same age as the average viewer of the series - a teenager struggling with the issues of growing up and letting go of her childhood. Basara and Gamlin are much more like plot foils, in this respect - She is torn between the two of them because she wants to play and have fun with Basara, but is developing adult romantic feelings for Gamlin at the same time. In that respect, there's no real "love" triangle to the series, so much as the internal struggle of growing up.

In the end, I think the point to the series was that growing up doesn't mean you have to let go of the magic of your childhood (measured quantitatively in Chiba Song Units). Since the show is marketed primarily at a younger audience, the end result is going to be biased toward that sweet, sweet childish magic, which reinforces the feelings and opinions of the young viewer (and us adults who still buy toys). Contrast this with Macross Zero, where the target audience is older - the ending is a rather dark and poignant look at warfare.

[Keith]

Hmm, a civil Macross 7 discussion, we truly do live in the future.

[Zinjo]

Rock is different, and does take a little bit of getting used to, here in Japan. I encourage readers to do some research into the various musical acts, past and present, from Japan. It may help viewers towards the thinking of "it's not just Macross 7".

Food for thought...

The Protodevlin "twins" (for lack of a better name, I can't remember their actual names; the two with many arms) remind me of Indo-Buddhist gods. There is a rough design in Kazutaka Miyatake's Macross and Orguss Design works that reminds me of a Japanese mask; which are generally based off of Shinto mythological gods and spiritial beings. I'm not sure if that particular design made it into the final anime. Nevertheless, it does go to show that a healthy understanding of Japanese culture (and not pop or entertainment culture) will uncover some of the deeper meanings and intentions of the series.

Again, I must stress that I interpret the show as one made for and marketed to teenagers. However, it is not as shallow as some of the Macross "fans" here pigeon-hole it as.

On the contrary, I do agree that a cultural aspect is inherent in the show, as it is here. Often western references find their way into animated shows and prime time shows that many Japanese would be lost in. I find this often with a friend's Japanese girlfriend who often doesn't understand references that we take for granted.

However, the show's target audience was not necessarily highschool seniors, college students or even adults, it was kids and even with the eastern mystical references it was still not as deep as many wish it to be.

A slight aside from the hero/messiah debate...

I don't try to apply a critical, mature analysis to Basara because I don't think that's the way he's meant to be viewed. I'd classify Basara as "naive and hard-headed" rather than "selfish." He's like a child - he sees the world through his own rose-colored John Lennon glasses (and not just metaphorically!), and fails to understand why others might not see things the same way he does. Sure enough, Basara is most frequently seen among fans, his band-mates, and hot vampire alien chicks who want to jump his bones - and in the scenes where he's positioned next to the "grown-up" characters (Max & Millia - prime examples) he rarely deals on the same level as they do, usually ending up leaving the scene in a temper tantrum or frustrating the heck out of them. His personality and actions would be very appropriate for a character younger than Mylene, but in order to put him in a Valkyrie and have it make sense, the character had to be post-adolescent, physically.

In contrast, Gamlin is the character meant to appeal to more mature fans. He's the character who deals with the mature issues of love and loss, doing the right thing versus following orders, and maintaining order through responsibility. He's been through school and training. His hair is combed, his uniforms pressed, and his actions are predictable because he is surrounded by stability. Occasionally, that stability is upset for comic relief and character development, but his first personal goal is always to return to that stable condition.

Both of these characters are diametrically opposed to one another. Basara wonders why the bad guys ran off without letting him finish his song. Gamlin is left to survey the wreckage and unconscious/dead bodies of his fellow soldiers, and file a report. Childish naivete vs adult realism.

And to add another kerosene-soaked log to this fire... we have Mylene. She's the character at the same age as the average viewer of the series - a teenager struggling with the issues of growing up and letting go of her childhood. Basara and Gamlin are much more like plot foils, in this respect - She is torn between the two of them because she wants to play and have fun with Basara, but is developing adult romantic feelings for Gamlin at the same time. In that respect, there's no real "love" triangle to the series, so much as the internal struggle of growing up.

In the end, I think the point to the series was that growing up doesn't mean you have to let go of the magic of your childhood (measured quantitatively in Chiba Song Units). Since the show is marketed primarily at a younger audience, the end result is going to be biased toward that sweet, sweet childish magic, which reinforces the feelings and opinions of the young viewer (and us adults who still buy toys). Contrast this with Macross Zero, where the target audience is older - the ending is a rather dark and poignant look at warfare.

Well said. However I believe there was a love triangle for Mylene, as she was attracted to both, but as you said, she couldn't make up her mind either way...

It was obvious with Gamlin, but Basara was always very guarded about his personal feelings throughtout the series and the only indication of his humanity was when he relentlessly tried to revive Sivil. There appeared to be an attraction there that we never saw again until he was interacting with Emilia in the M7 "movie".

[Vic Mancini]

Perhaps the problem is the choice of terms - but it is easy to see parallels to prophets in the desert and wandering brahmins to Basara. There is also a pretty big divide between what I think the writers intended for this character and how some audiences are taking it. For better or for worse Basara is a vehicle for a spiritual philosophy that turns out to be true within the universe he inhabits. Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations. So as a "prophet" with some pretty obvious allusions in the anime - whether his time in the desert or trying to make a mountain "uproot itself and be planted in the sea" Basara WILL be driven by his "deity" (so to speak) to behave in ways that other people not only will have problems understanding but may be threatened by. Heh, prophets are also notorious for being kind of forceful about their ideas, particularly in the western tradition. At least Basara doesn't seem to want to present destruction as the only alternative to listening to his singing (although some people might prefer it!).

And don't forget perhaps the most obvious reference/parallel of all: Basara died and was resurrected.

It is obvious to me that the Mac 7 writers meant to create a vague air of spiritual/spiritial divinity around Basara's character and his abilities. There are far too many spiritual/religious allusions, references, and metaphors to ignore.

Heh, I had a pretty good rant on the page just before, but as always I was the last one so it disappeared. Oh well.

Despite not replying to it, I promise it did not go unread by me.

You've made very insightful points in all your posts regarding Basara.

[Vic Mancini]

My comments are in direct response to your comment about picketing outside a military/government building. Now you are throwing in a totally different scenario to justify your position. Don't try to dismiss my point with a different example from what it addressed. If that was your point all along then you should have made it initially.

I'm not throwing in a totally different scenario, I'm throwing in the original scenario.

I was confused by how you could equate singing with rape, which is why I posed the protest signage analogy. Once I clarified that your beef had little to do with the actual music/signage, and more to do with the trespassing aspect, (intrusion into your vehicle), I brought the conversation back on topic by posing a new analogy that is more directly applicable to the events in the anime rather than continuing down an avenue that will invariably get us no where.

He was a starving artist for his music, I saw no job, or any means of income outside the gigs he performed. He lived in a "forgotten" slum of the colony ship where it was pretty evident most who lived there were likely squatters.

I don't understand what jobs or income have to do with anything. He could be a messiah/prophet and still have no jobs or income. Financing is irrelevant to being a prophet or artist.

Maybe I'm not being clear...

Forget about the starving part. What I'm trying to say is that Basara was not an artist so much as he was a spiritial motivator or revolutionary. He didn't make music for music's sake, he used music as a tool to liberate and grow spiritia.

What liberation? How would he know they'd encounter the PD? How would he know they'd encounter brainwashed Megaroad 13 colonists? Who was he liberating and from what?

He was liberating everyone, not just the Protodeviln and a small colony of enslaved colonists. They were just the tip of the iceberg. His songs were just as much for his own people and the often war-mongering military as it was for the Protodeviln.

Like NeoverseOmega said:

If you buy into the logic of the Anime he's pretty selfless (after all, if he really is "spiritually enlightened" then he doesn't HAVE to know that the protodeviln will show up. He just has to believe that if they encounter anything out there while exploring space, he will be able to move it's heart) if not, well he's a delusional prick.

Basara and Ray were on a mission to make everyone and anyone realize that love triumphs over war and that nothing positive comes from retaliating against an attacker with violence.

There was no predetermination or fore knowledge of his abilities very often associated with those of the Messianic persuation.

Of course there was. Basara may not have known about past Anima Spiritia or the original Protodeviln conflict with the Protoculture millions of years ago, but Basara most certainly had a vague predetermination for his music and knowledge that he was different from others. Even Ray knew it. They had a plan to change the world with Basara's music from the very start.

The predetermination was also present the very first time that he flew out into the middle of a Protodeviln/Varuata attack. He had absolute conviction and belief that his songs would make a significant impact on the hearts of the warring forces. It's not like his ability was an accidental discovery that randomly occurred in the middle of a battle...Basara had faith in what his music could do before hand.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[Valkyrie addict]

I don't know if my memory is failing me or not, and will not go trough the ordeal of rewatching Macross 7 for this, but what's all this deal of Basara 'dying'? far as I remember he was in some sort of a coma... hardly dead... maybe someone could clarify this for me

[Zinjo]

I'm not throwing in a totally different scenario, I'm throwing in the original scenario.

Read both posts again and you will (or maybe not) see that two different situations are described. That is as far as I'm going to go into the semantics of that paragraph.

I was confused by how you could equate singing with rape, which is why I posed the protest signage analogy.

Again, read the post. There was no equating the actual singing with rape, but the forcing of it upon an unwilling person(s) by violent means (as in shooting a speaker pod into another spacecraft), which is what rape is ultimately, the forcable trespass of one person on to another against their will.

Once I clarified that your beef had little to do with the actual music/signage, and more to do with the trespassing aspect, (intrusion into your vehicle), I brought the conversation back on topic by posing a new analogy that is more directly applicable to the events in the anime rather than continuing down an avenue that will invariably get us no where.

Then you've just contradicted yourself by admiting you changed the analogy, where previously you claimed it was the same. You may wish to slow down and read the whole posts before.

I don't understand what jobs or income have to do with anything. He could be a messiah/prophet and still have no jobs or income. Financing is irrelevant to being a prophet or artist.

"Starving Artist" is a term for those who are so consumed with their "art" that they do nothing else and often "starve" due to lack of funds to purchase food. If financing is irrelevant to being and artist then explain to me about all these musical "artists" suing Napster back in the day, or painters who's set legal dogs on people for using their work without permission? Art is for the masses free of charge is it not? I won't even dignify the messianic fantastic stretches.

Maybe I'm not being clear...

Forget about the starving part. What I'm trying to say is that Basara was not an artist so much as he was a spiritial motivator or revolutionary. He didn't make music for music's sake, he used music as a tool to liberate and grow spiritia.

He had no idea what spiritia was until they met the PD. He used music to reach people like Minmay did 30 years previously and believed that he could affect people the same way. Although his methods were far more intrusive than Minmay's.

He was liberating everyone, not just the Protodeviln and a small colony of enslaved colonists. They were just the tip of the iceberg. His songs were just as much for his own people and the often war-mongering military as it was for the Protodeviln.

He did believe his music could reach people, but this whole liberation and messianic soapbox is largely without any support from the story itself.

Basara and Ray were on a mission to make everyone and anyone realize that love triumphs over war and that nothing positive comes from retaliating against an attacker with violence.

Roy saw Basara as a potential alternative to conventional warfare, similar to the Minmay effect. Not as some guru mystically sent by the universe.

Of course there was. Basara may not have known about past Anima Spiritia or the original Protodeviln conflict with the Protoculture millions of years ago, but Basara most certainly had a vague predetermination for his music and knowledge that he was different from others. Even Ray knew it. They had a plan to change the world with Basara's music from the very start.

Based on what? Basara became inspired by the Minmay legend and determined to be able to do the same thing. That is not pre-determination, he was not aware that he possessed the unique quality of anima spiritia, only the determination and belief that he would do what Minmay did. He largely willed things to happen by sheer subbornness.

The predetermination was also present the very first time that he flew out into the middle of a Protodeviln/Varuata attack. He had absolute conviction and belief that his songs would make a significant impact on the hearts of the warring forces. It's not like his ability was an accidental discovery that randomly occurred in the middle of a battle...Basara had faith in what his music could do before hand.

That's not pre-determination, that's force of will and absolute faith in his beliefs. He could have just as easily have failed and nearly gotten himself killed had the writers not written him like some sort of super hero.

[protodeviln]

I second VA's question.

was he brain dead...clinically dead....?

I assumed he was on the verge of death and not in fact deceased. If he was brain dead....I could see why he would be kept alive ( even for a little while anyway) but if his whole body shut down - why would they keep him in that iron lung contraption?

[Dio]

Sivil's expert medical advice after trying to give him back his spiritia.

"Basara... is dead. KAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW...."

[Vic Mancini]

Hmmm...

I'm sensing some hostility on your part. I'm just trying to have a civilized debate. I'm not a threat to you.

Again, read the post. There was no equating the actual singing with rape, but the forcing of it upon an unwilling person(s) by violent means (as in shooting a speaker pod into another spacecraft), which is what rape is ultimately, the forcable trespass of one person on to another against their will.

Actually, I think you need to read my post again.

I think you missed where I was trying to acknowlede what you're talking about:

"Once I clarified that your beef had little to do with the actual music/signage, and more to do with the trespassing aspect, (intrusion into your vehicle)" -Vic Mancini

Then you've just contradicted yourself by admiting you changed the analogy, where previously you claimed it was the same. You may wish to slow down and read the whole posts before.

Where did I claim it was the same? I said I changed it back to the original scenario by creating a new analogy that resembled the events in the anime more accurately. It's a new analogy, and it's the original scenario...original as in what was happening in the anime.

Maybe I worded it badly. My mistake. I sincerely apologize.

Whatever the case, do you understand now?

"Starving Artist" is a term for those who are so consumed with their "art" that they do nothing else and often "starve" due to lack of funds to purchase food. If financing is irrelevant to being and artist then explain to me about all these musical "artists" suing Napster back in the day, or painters who's set legal dogs on people for using their work without permission? Art is for the masses free of charge is it not?

Forget the starving. Erase it from your mind.

An artist is an artist whether he's making money or not.

A prophet is a prophet whether he is making money or not.

Financing has nothing to do with being one or the other.

You said Basara is the epitome of the starving artist notion. I'm trying to explain to you that I'm not disagreeing with the starving part, I'm disagreeing with the artist part. I'm saying he was written much more like a prophet/messiah archetype than he was written as an artist archetype. Understand?

He did believe his music could reach people, but this whole liberation and messianic soapbox is largely without any support from the story itself.

Not that it needs to be said, but I obviously disagree. I see way too many spiritual, religious, and mystical references around Basara's character to believe that they were unintentional. [Many pointed out by NeoverseOmega].

[NeoverseOmega]

Let me try as best I can to stitch some of this together. I think we all agree that Basara honestly believed that he could touch people hearts, and in doing so put an end to wars and a lot of other nasty things. The anime proves him right, at least within that context. As a whole I suspect we are all starting to part company at the question of spirituality. Keep in mind that the Japanese will view Judeo-Christian symbolism as exotic, and while they use it pretty liberally in Mac7, it doesn't mean that they understand it with quite the same depth that some of us will here in the U.S.

When someone describes someone as Messianic, even if one of the definitions is pretty open, it will still carry a lot of baggage - no one wants to imply that Basara is god-like, or that he is so unique that others cannot be like him. He is not "the annointed", a chosen one exactly. He is an example of an untapped human potential - if you will a science and technology of the heart that was neglected with all the technological advancement in Macross. He doesn't need predestination or precognition - if it wasn't the protodeviln it would have been some Zentran or angry colonists - heck maybe a tribe of irate gubaba clones for all we know. All he ever needed to know was that touching hearts could change the world, and that he was capable of it - then his life becomes consumed by that pursuit. If you want, yes, Basara does suffer from some of the dark sides of being a religious zealot as well. Shooting speaker pods into armor is a little bit more intrusive than knocking on doors and handing out flyers - but he's shooting songs at beings shooting REAL BULLETS. Again, if he's a holy man, you could say he's trying to teach by example. Basara is violent - he gets angry, but in his mind there are better ways to fight. He tries very hard to show that, to demonstrate that you can fight a war with absolutely minimal casualties (although even Basara learns that sometimes you do have to do harm to protect others). I think he'd much prefer what we are doing here - hashing out thoughts and feelings while struggling to find common ground.

But personally, music isn't the only way to do that, and in that respect Basara is narrow minded. Like any Zealot, the only way he knows is his, and he won't risk other options - but this is understandable, because his way has already been proven to work (Minmei).

In some ways it might be more accurate to describe him as a kind of tribal shaman getting people in touch with things they might not understand and may have even forgotten were parts of themselves. Do I think they intended Basara to be seen as a kind of Holy man? Probably, they seem to have used way too many comparisons within the show for it to be coincidental. I think they even have the Television announcers saying he was rumored to have gone to study with some bhuddist master and achieved enlightenment. Keep in mind however that shaman is JUST ONE SOCIAL ROLE. You still have warriors, chieftans, mothers, fathers, the whole communal nine yards.

Of course if your the ONLY tribal shaman in a group of warriors and chieftans, you almost have to have a skull made of concrete to have your way. Remember, from his point of view the military has had it's way for a long time and the casualties have piled up. It's hard not to see him as the classic sixties counterculture hippy in that respect - with all the positive and negative baggage that goes with it. He really is an idealist, but often when people realize that there is something wrong with a system they decide they want no part of it whatsoever - which can seem pretty belittling to the good people in the system that are working hard in their own fashion for a better world. You actually need both sides of the equation to make things work - a little social upset and a little force for stability. It's just that things have been at one extreme for a while so Basara overcompensates.

But I do see some of Zinjo's point - but I think his point is more political and is one of the reasons some people despise this show - I think he might argue that ANY attempt to manipulate thought (even with good intentions) is evil. By extension a show that tries to force the watcher to accept a point of view, even just within the context of it's universe, is intolerable. I think since Basara is the tool for that agenda within the show, he will REALLY rub some people the wrong way.

Well, I've ranted enough for now - I'm still chewing on some of this. You know the really interesting thing is how much you have to dig to understand peoples intentions (the writers of this story for instance) when more than likely a good chunk of it is feeling and instinct that comes out in a certain form - but because its not OUR instinct or feeling you almost have to analyze it like a math problem to get it to work for you sometimes.

[Valkyrie addict]

errr...anyway, I'm sure that in the Macross universe, by the time of Macross 7, with all this overtechnology, cloning, micronizing and stuff, medicine should had advanced enough to keep a man from 'dying' so easily, so for me basara was not dead, just in some kind of stasis, just like all the unnamed pilots that got their spirita sucked, with the singing they gave Basara some spiritia to get out of his stasis... I mean, if they have the technology to shoot Basara some pink putty in space and keep him from sneezing his lungs out in the vastness of space with no space suit whatsoever after getting blown up by a gigantic space whale they can stop him from dying

so this whole messiah stop for me it's not correct

[NeoverseOmega]

Agreed.

I don't think anything in M7 is intended to be truly supernatural (supernatural implies outside of nature - even the crazy lights and beams from Basara wouldn't have "Chiba points" or anything else measurable if in the M7 universe it wasn't just another level of physics). Basara was in an extreme stasis - spiritia drain doesn't seem to be so much about physical death as having a reason to live. That's one of the reasons why I didn't list it in my initial battery of mystical allusions. I think the self sacrifice is there, but the allusion is meant to make it poignant, not to make Basara into a Christ figure. Heh, no nails, no cross, no three days in the tomb? Again, I think these allusions are used to help us identify Basara as a holy man, not to equate him with a Messiah.

So we agree on both points - no ressurection (in a literal sense anyway) and no "messiah" in M7.

These judeo-christian symbolism are probably just used because they are interesting and exotic to a culture accustomed to Shinto and Buddhism and seem to fit well enough to help carry a point. How often do writers make references to Greek and Norse deities without the slightest intent of showing any deference to beings once taken VERY seriously.

No, I think Basara is important to the plot, but he's not intended to be THAT colossally important.

Part of the point is that someone else could have been Basara if the tried really hard to communicate their heart (heh, Vefidas showed that drums work).

I thought I clarified that the term messiah is inappropriate here? At best Basara's a kind of new age holy man. Messiah has too many enormous connotations - in retrospect perhaps my choice of prophet in some of the earlier posts might have been off too. He doesn't know the future, he doesn't have some grand pre-destiny. I think those tropes are used to indicate his place in the picture - that he is a future cultures redefinition of a spiritual truth. Is he special (in more than the short yellow bus sense)? Certainly, or else both the protoculture and the protodeviln wouldn't have a name for what he is.

There is spiritual symbolism in M7, enough of it that I think it's hard to sidestep. But you can be spiritual without believing in anything really supernatural. I've met some pretty hard-core atheists that have a very spiritual view of the universe (don't want to make this about religion at all, I'm just trying to illustrate a point).

The theory here, at it's most extreme, seems to suggest that all living things have a connection and that in the M7 universe that connection is a literal, quantifiable, physically manifest thing that can be given and taken. A rare person who is uniquely in tune with that is going to appear almost magical. Keep in mind too that Basara is the vehicle for the kind of ultimately almost insanely optimistic world-view that underlies macross. Here empathy is made out to be a physical power that connects all living things; spirituality equated with intense feeling in this universe.

[Vic Mancini]

Agreed.

Disagree.

Whether or not Basara clinically dies, I think the symbol is still present and intended. The episode is titled "The Death of Basara" after all. It would not be named that if Basara's catatonic state was not meant to be viewed with a certain degree of extra significance, and I really don't believe it would be named that simply to lead on viewers who have yet to watch the episode.

It's just one of the many spiritual parallels in Mac 7 that can't be ignored, IMO. I'm not saying he's holy or divine by the definition of the term, [that's never been my position], but there is most certainly a vague reference there. He's meant to seem divine from certain perspectives.

I don't think anything in M7 is intended to be truly supernatural (supernatural implies outside of nature - even the crazy lights and beams from Basara wouldn't have "Chiba points" or anything else measurable if in the M7 universe it wasn't just another level of physics).

Agreed. It's all partially rationalized supernatural physics, but not so rationalized that it's completely explained by natural physics either. And that's usually what good sci-fi/spiritual stories are made of...until they go to far with it. Midichloreans for example. Usually it makes you question if there's really something going on behind the scenes or if it all just seems mystic because it's not fully understood.

Again, I think these allusions are used to help us identify Basara as a holy man, not to equate him with a Messiah.

Messiah doesn't necessarily mean God/Christ as some of you seem to think. I've always defined the word as nothing more than a [very special] savior or liberator of slaves. Basara was most definitely a messiah by that definition. Even though Mylene was also Anima Spiritia, I think Basara was the only known person in the Galaxy with a strong enough gift to liberate the Varuata slaves, and to put a preemptive halt to the enslavement of the Mac 7 fleet, and who knows who else? ...Eventually we might all be part of the spiritia farm, right?

Here's more definitions I found:

Mes·si·ah

1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people.

2. Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation. John 4:25, 26.

3. (usually lowercase) any expected deliverer.

4. (usually lowercase) a zealous leader of some cause or project.

5. (italics) an oratorio (1742) by George Frideric Handel.

www.dictionary.com

Basara definitely fits 3 and 4 from the above, and number 3 from the following:

Mes·si·ah

1. also Mes·si·as (mĭ-sī'əs) The anticipated savior of the Jews.

2. also Messias Christianity Jesus.

3. messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.

Messiah has too many enormous connotations - in retrospect perhaps my choice of prophet in some of the earlier posts might have been off too. He doesn't know the future, he doesn't have some grand pre-destiny.

I think messiah is a much more fitting label than prophet, actually. Like you just said, Basara never actually prophesizes anything. He only has a vague feeling and faith that his music can be more than just music which probably doesn't count. I just happen to think he was written much like a prohpet archetype, especially with all the symbolism, allusions, and parallels to various spiritual icons.

There is spiritual symbolism in M7, enough of it that I think it's hard to sidestep.

Most definitely agree.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[NeoverseOmega]

Quotes three and four do work to some degree (well, except that his role is expected, I don't think Basara himself is an "expected" deliverer - again, no prophesy per se). You are quite correct as far as a literal somewhat contemporary interpretation of the word Messiah. I'm just trying to be very careful about it's connotation. Yes, a LOT of people have a hard time separating it from it's Hebrew roots. For better or for worse, the word Messiah initially meant annointed (referring to the divinely appointed King of the Hebrews). It began as a vision of a largely military leader, then the Christian tradition gave it another spin. Since then literary definitions have developed and it has become an Archetype (even in some psychological circles, so among specialists you could add a stage of development to that list).

Actually I'm pretty familiar with it.

Unfortunately, as much as I would like to just cling to what we see in a dictionary, words have effects on people. Heh, it's like if I try to explain to a girl that technically a b*!$h is just a female dog - and most dogs are loyal, cute and cuddly, I'd probably still go home with a black eye!

Once I see a word has so much baggage that it makes it hard to communicate to some people, I try other options. There is no doubt that the symbolism is there, but I do kind of doubt that the writers intended it to mean what the term Messiah means to many people. Yes, there is sacrifice and a state like death that Basara awakes from - but it's not his resurrection that rescues people, nor does it seem to mark a stage of development for Basara to "ascend". Instead it seems to be there largely to make the reference, and perhaps to show someone how powerful love for an enemy can be.

But the kind of Messiah that Valkyrie Addict is responding to (probably balking at the image of a guy with flamin' hair and John Lennon glasses carrying a funky guitar as anything resembling a demigod) isn't present. I think we can both acknowledge that.

Sure - partly it's because he isn't reading this extended tome of a discussion thoroughly enough to realize that we mean something far more specific and restrictive. But again, it seems to me that if a word is a barrier to understanding it might be good to work around it.

Or maybe I'm trying too hard to get everyone on common ground

Edited May 1, 2007 by NeoverseOmega

[sketchley]

When someone describes someone as Messianic, even if one of the definitions is pretty open, it will still carry a lot of baggage - no one wants to imply that Basara is god-like, or that he is so unique that others cannot be like him. He is not "the annointed", a chosen one exactly.

Hmmm, in these terms, it sounds actually very Buddhist. Specifically along the lines of a Bodhisatva (Bodhisatva's being a part of Mahayana Buddhism, the branch of Buddhism in Japan.) Bodhisatva's are quasi-devine, and not necessarily choosen. Bodhisatva's have attained enlightenment, but instead of entering Nirvana, they turn back, to help others to attain enlightenment.

The terms being used to describe Basara sound extremely similar. It should be noted that Basara is the Japanized name for Vajra, one of the Juni-Shinsho (12 Generals of Yakushi Nyorai).

This page http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/12-generals.shtml gives Basara the following description:

white; armed with sword; ox; the one who protects mankind, bringing people's aspirations to fruition

Therefore, I am forming the opinion that Macross 7 is a lot more religious than has been given credit. Religious not in the sense of Judeo-Christian beliefs, but in East Asian, Buddhist and Shinto beliefs.

[NeoverseOmega]

Excellent point, and probably one of the reasons why the definitions we have been using have been chafing at me. Basara's mode of operation makes far more sense outside of western mysticism even if it is loaded with references to it. For someone who knows far more about the mysticism of my own culture than the religions of others, I try to be cautious in making these kinds of projections - It's nice to hear it from someone more familiar with Shinto, Buddhism, and I suspect a smattering of Hindu.

A loose definition of messiah kind of works, but even loose definitions kind of suggest a singular person set aside by destiny - not a role that has a place in the universe that will fill itself by virtue of being. In some ways that sounds - forgive me if I'm off on this - almost Taoist. Whatever the case, Macross 7 seems to knit together a wide variety of differing symbol systems to come to a spiritual philosophy of its own. After all, in western mythology, fallen angels aren't changeable - but If I remember correctly in Hindu myth angels and demons are just at different stages of development and can change back and forth into each other over the eons (again, correct me if I'm grossly mistaken). Saying that the protodeviln simply need to find "Enlightenment" to move on to a higher stage of development seems to fit into that kind of mythic system. Of course in the show it's accomplished by singing, which can be a little painful at times. But in a way it makes sense considering that in most spiritual systems its the deep inexplicable and paradoxical nature of human feeling that is often used to make an argument for something that exists outside of crude flesh. That's hard to represent, but philosophers have often compared the soul to music. Heh, I don't know if any of the writers were thinking that deeply, at this point I may have gone a little to far in projecting my own thoughts, but it does kind of seem to fit. If nothing else, musics ability to move people (and even animals) can seem pretty mysterious, so I'm sure their instincts said that it was the best way to make it work in a story. Besides, kids like Rock Stars!

[Vic Mancini]

Quotes three and four do work to some degree (well, except that his role is expected, I don't think Basara himself is an "expected" deliverer - again, no prophesy per se).

I don't know, I still can't help but disagree with this.

The only reason it's not expected is because nobody knows about Anima Spiritia except for the Protodeviln. Hypothetically, if everyone knew what Anima Spiritia was, and that Anima Spiritia defeated the PD in the first place, and that Basara was the last known Anima Spiritia, then Basara would most definitely be expected to deliver. It was only the circumstances of history being lost that conflicted with everyone's expectations for Basara, not his lack of significance as a savior.

Secondly, most people came around before the end of the series and recognized Basara as their only hope against the Protodeviln. Eventually they believed in Basara and had faith that he could save the universe. Doesn't that qualify him as an expected deliverer? If not, he was the closest thing they had to one.

Unfortunately, as much as I would like to just cling to what we see in a dictionary, words have effects on people. Heh, it's like if I try to explain to a girl that technically a b*!$h is just a female dog - and most dogs are loyal, cute and cuddly, I'd probably still go home with a black eye!

I see what you're saying. Fair enough.

There is no doubt that the symbolism is there, but I do kind of doubt that the writers intended it to mean what the term Messiah means to many people.

I totally agree because I don't think the writers intended to define anything one way or the other.

I think that they intended to make the question itself a possibility without committing to any one direction. The conditions are in place so that one could validly ponder Basara's divinity and not be out of line, [just like we're doing now].

[sketchley]

Hmmm... I've come to the conclusion that messiah is not the best term to use. Limiting the Macross world view to that of humans, Anima Spiritia are unknown. Broadening that to include all that we, the observers, know of the Macross universe, one can surmise that Anima Spiritia are expected. Yes, Basara does becomes a saviour, and is expected to deliver feats by the end of the series. However, I am interpreting expected as in anticipated prior to meeting, and not the sense of doing a required action. Though the interpretation of the nuances of the word and it's definition may just be me...

That said, IMHO, Bodhisatva would be a better descriptor. For me, the definition is someone who undertakes a personal spiritial journey at their own choosing, and at the completion of it and finding a hidden truth, they share the means of finding the hidden truth to others.

Talk of descriptors aside, when looking at things in terms of Asian beliefs, one must keep in mind that philosophy and religion are generally combined, and should not be considered as seperate ideas (as is the case with Western religious and philosophical thinking.)* In other words, it may prove to be impossible to seperate the religious ideas from the philosophical ones in this discussion.

*Buddhism is as much a philosophy for living, as it is a religion. Confucianism is as much a religion as it is a philosophy for living. The former has more concepts and ideas that Western observers associate with religion, whereas the later has some concepts and ideas that are both more philosophical, and also completely foreign (in terms of religious ideas) to Western observers. Ancestor Worship comes first and foremostly to mind.

Edited May 1, 2007 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

Hmmm...

I'm sensing some hostility on your part. I'm just trying to have a civilized debate. I'm not a threat to you.

Actually, I think you need to read my post again.

No, just a bit of frustration.

I think you missed where I was trying to acknowlede what you're talking about:

"Once I clarified that your beef had little to do with the actual music/signage, and more to do with the trespassing aspect, (intrusion into your vehicle)" -Vic Mancini

Where did I claim it was the same? I said I changed it back to the original scenario by creating a new analogy that resembled the events in the anime more accurately. It's a new analogy, and it's the original scenario...original as in what was happening in the anime.

The issue was that my response was in direct response to a comment as written. A second analogy was introduced and presented as the premise to discount my previous comment.

My post would have been different had your second analogy been used initially. That is where the frustration began.

Maybe I worded it badly. My mistake. I sincerely apologize.

Whatever the case, do you understand now?

Forget the starving. Erase it from your mind.

An artist is an artist whether he's making money or not.

A prophet is a prophet whether he is making money or not.

Financing has nothing to do with being one or the other.

My friend I was the one who introduced the idea of the "starving artist", you were arguing against that point.

You said Basara is the epitome of the starving artist notion. I'm trying to explain to you that I'm not disagreeing with the starving part, I'm disagreeing with the artist part. I'm saying he was written much more like a prophet/messiah archetype than he was written as an artist archetype. Understand?

Yes and my point was that you changed your position on that and wouldn't acknowledge it.

Initially you held the position that he was an artist dedicated to the purity of his musical vision and answerable to now one, but himself, then he became a messiah or prophet.

Not that it needs to be said, but I obviously disagree. I see way too many spiritual, religious, and mystical references around Basara's character to believe that they were unintentional. [Many pointed out by NeoverseOmega].

There were fantasy elements around Basara and the Anima Spiritia ability to be sure, but much of it was explained when they opened the PC archive. Basara was much less unigue than we were lead to believe. At one time there must have been hundreds of Anima Spiritia people deployed throughout the PC fleets.

We disagree, that is perfectly fine. It is not the end of the world, it happens all the time....

[Keith]

There's actually no indication to say there were "hundreds of anima spiritia" through out the Protoculture fleets, only that there were some, and that could easily have been just as small a group as Sound Force.

[Zinjo]

There's actually no indication to say there were "hundreds of anima spiritia" through out the Protoculture fleets, only that there were some, and that could easily have been just as small a group as Sound Force.

That is an assumption on my part based on the size of the SA at the height of the PD power.

If all were similarly mind controlled the only way to effectively win a battle would be to have many teams (possibly a hundred (s)) to cut a swath through the enemy forces.

Granted it is only an assumption, but I find it difficult to believe that they'd only be able to find a team of 4 with this ability from the billions in the Republic at the time.

[Keith]

That is an assumption on my part based on the size of the SA at the height of the PD power.

If all were similarly mind controlled the only way to effectively win a battle would be to have many teams (possibly a hundred (s)) to cut a swath through the enemy forces.

Granted it is only an assumption, but I find it difficult to believe that they'd only be able to find a team of 4 with this ability from the billions in the Republic at the time.

Considering that the SA were still around to fight with the Zentradi long after the Protoculture & Protodevelin were gone, it's doubtful that the Protoculture's Anima Spiritia attempted to recoup citizens lost to the Protodevelin, and instead went on a direct assault of the Protodevelin themselves. The Zentradi would take care of cutting a line through the Supervision Army for them.

[Zinjo]

Considering that the SA were still around to fight with the Zentradi long after the Protoculture & Protodevelin were gone, it's doubtful that the Protoculture's Anima Spiritia attempted to recoup citizens lost to the Protodevelin, and instead went on a direct assault of the Protodevelin themselves. The Zentradi would take care of cutting a line through the Supervision Army for them.

Possibly.

Then we also have to consider that at that time ALL the PD were awake and active, so one team would probably not be sufficient, however you do make a good case that there may well have not been hundreds of Anima Spiritia troops in the field.

Then again nothing is mentioned as to how many were identified to have this ability but didn't serve either.

[Vic Mancini]

No, just a bit of frustration.

No need to get worked up.

Just relax and this will be a much less frustrating experience.

The issue was that my response was in direct response to a comment as written. A second analogy was introduced and presented as the premise to discount my previous comment.

Actually if you want to split hairs, I never said anything about protesters entering your car against your will. My analogy was simply protesters outside of a government building, as in in a public space where thier signs could not be ignored by the employees inside. You were the one who added the part about the protesters trespassing into your car. So you were actually the first one to "introduce a new premise to discount my previous comment", and your response was never directed to a "comment as written."

...which is fine by me, I never wanted to bicker about it who said what/when. I don't mind that you made your own analogy because it helped me to understand more specifically what you have a problem with in regards to Basara's actions...it's clearly the trespassing aspect for you, [speaker pods], more than it is the actual music itself, and I understand that now. Once I learned this, I brought us back on track by putting forth a new analogy that resembles the to the original events of Mac 7 more accurately.

My friend I was the one who introduced the idea of the "starving artist", you were arguing against that point.

????????????????????????????????

I am totally confused by this statement.

Did I indicate somewhere that you weren't the one who introduced that idea?

I was, and still am, arguing against it. But for some reason I keep failing to make you understand that I'm arguing against the artist part and not arguing against the starving part.

Yes and my point was that you changed your position on that and wouldn't acknowledge it.

Initially you held the position that he was an artist dedicated to the purity of his musical vision and answerable to now one, but himself, then he became a messiah or prophet.

I have not changed my position. I have only referred to Basara as an "artist" once that I can see in all the many posts I've made in this thread, and I've made many many many more statements indicating that Basara is obviously more than an artist because his music has always been about doing something bigger than to simply write songs.

In fact, my very first post in this thread in response to Valkyrie Addict's comment about Basara being flawed because he doesn't change, was made because of how closely Basara resembles a spiritual revolutionary type of figure, and that change would be wrong for that type of character.

"The core of Basara's character is his unwavering conviction and commitment to what he believes in. He believes he can stop wars and even literally move mountains with his music." -Vic Mancini

I've been [unsuccesfully] trying to explain from the very start that Basara's music was always about doing something bigger than making art, and that Basara's conviction to his beliefs is an essential part of his character and that, IMO, if he were to change it would undermine the strength and purity of his spiritial vision.

I will admit that Basara is an artist in many ways, that is obvious. I don't think I ever said he "wasn't an artist - period". What I said was that he wasn't written as an artist archetype so much as he was written as prophet/messiah archetype. His goal was not to write good songs for the sake of exploring new artistic/musical territory. His goal was always to do bigger spiritial things with his music. That's one of the things that makes his character closer to a spiritual revolutionary/leader than an artist.

And you can't be the epitome of the starving artist notion if you're written more like a prophet/spiritual leader archetype than an artist archetype. Understand?

We disagree, that is perfectly fine. It is not the end of the world, it happens all the time....

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, (see my interactions with Sketchley and NeoverseOmega).

What I have a problem with is being misunderstood and having my words twisted around. I have a problem with you saying things like, "you changed your position," when I really didn't. And I have a problem with you focusing more on who created what analogy when instead of debating the topic.

You keep telling me that my position is one thing when it is actually something else. I keep trying to explain myself more clearly for you to understand, but it doesn't seem to be getting through. It feels like you're more focused on manufacturing some kind of contradiction instead of actually trying to understand where I'm coming from.

I will admit that I am not the greatest writer. I'm not always as clear as I can be and I may use words from time to time that might lead someone to believe that my position is different from what it actually is. But when we get to those crossroads and I try to clarify for you what my stance is and explain to you what I originally meant and why it came across a certain way, you need to listen to me instead of holding me to some not-so-ideal wording choice that I made in a previous post. This isn't a competition in who can poke the most holes in the other person's logic, (at least it's not for me.) If you want to have a discussion with me you need to be more interested in knowing what my opinions actually are than what specific words I use. And then you need to choose to agree/disagree without the hostility.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Vic Mancini

[jenius]

Me thinks you are all looking into a bucket and seeing an abyss.

[mechaninac]

Me thinks you are all looking into a bucket and seeing an abyss.

And the Abyss is staring back...

[Phyrox]

Me thinks you are all looking into a bucket and seeing an abyss.

methinks jenius is right

(about the bucket thing...not his spelling of methinks)

Edited May 3, 2007 by Phyrox

[NeoverseOmega]

If the bucket's got "Abyss" written on the bottom in big bold letters, then sure.

[jenius]

(about the bucket thing...not his spelling of methinks)

duly noted.

[Dio]

I do believe sometimes it is necessary to step back and realize we're enjoying a cartoon featuring a hero who uses music to ward off aliens.

Honestly, we ought to look at some of the very deep implications we're drawing about a series that... well... probably didn't involve that much thought when they were created/written, to put it bluntly.

Just sit back and enjoy the fact that it's cool, is my motto

[Zinjo]

So you were actually the first one to "introduce a new premise to discount my previous comment", and your response was never directed to a "comment as written."

Yes that is correct, I introduced the car invasion aspect in my rebuttal

Um, yes it was directed, I wrote it. However, I am finding that i am being judged by your own example and well that's where this tends to break down.

...which is fine by me, I never wanted to bicker about it who said what/when. I don't mind that you made your own analogy because it helped me to understand more specifically what you have a problem with in regards to Basara's actions...it's clearly the trespassing aspect for you, [speaker pods], more than it is the actual music itself, and I understand that now. Once I learned this, I brought us back on track by putting forth a new analogy that resembles the to the original events of Mac 7 more accurately.

If that was the purpose of the new analogy then it was not presented as such, which is unfortunate as it is a perceptive point.

????????????????????????????????

I am totally confused by this statement.

Did I indicate somewhere that you weren't the one who introduced that idea?

You entreated me to strip the "starving" part of the artist from my mind, as though it was a mistaken statement originally made by you. This was not the case. I was making a point about Basara being the "epitome of a starving artist" and you were rebutting it. Why would I abandon a point I was making?

I was, and still am, arguing against it. But for some reason I keep failing to make you understand that I'm arguing against the artist part and not arguing against the starving part.

I have not changed my position. I have only referred to Basara as an "artist" once that I can see in all the many posts I've made in this thread, and I've made many many many more statements indicating that Basara is obviously more than an artist because his music has always been about doing something bigger than to simply write songs.

Well I guess the issue is, that I keep bringing you back to those original statements trying to assertain when he went from an artist who owed no one anything to a prophet????

In fact, my very first post in this thread in response to Valkyrie Addict's comment about Basara being flawed because he doesn't change, was made because of how closely Basara resembles a spiritual revolutionary type of figure, and that change would be wrong for that type of character.

"The core of Basara's character is his unwavering conviction and commitment to what he believes in. He believes he can stop wars and even literally move mountains with his music." -Vic Mancini

You are not alone in that idea, however I agree with the fact that because Basara doesn't show any substantial growth he is boring as a character and it has been pointed out in other threads that he was less a character and more plot device for the series.

I've been [unsuccesfully] trying to explain from the very start that Basara's music was always about doing something bigger than making art, and that Basara's conviction to his beliefs is an essential part of his character and that, IMO, if he were to change it would undermine the strength and purity of his spiritial vision.

I will admit that Basara is an artist in many ways, that is obvious. I don't think I ever said he "wasn't an artist - period". What I said was that he wasn't written as an artist archetype so much as he was written as prophet/messiah archetype. His goal was not to write good songs for the sake of exploring new artistic/musical territory. His goal was always to do bigger spiritial things with his music. That's one of the things that makes his character closer to a spiritual revolutionary/leader than an artist.

In that we disagree.

The Basara character was inspired by the legend of Minmay from SW1 and determined within himself to do what she did. He didn't know how he was going to do it, but he was hell bent to accomplish his goal, which is why he "demanded" to be heard rather than allowed his music to "infect" the enemy forces as was the case with Minmay. The whole Anima Spiritia aspect came afterward and it isn't revealed (if I recall correctly) if the AS ability is a naturally occuring thing or something that can be learned with enough dedicated training.

And you can't be the epitome of the starving artist notion if you're written more like a prophet/spiritual leader archetype than an artist archetype. Understand?

I understand that is what you believe, but I don't share that notion at all.

What I have a problem with is being misunderstood and having my words twisted around. I have a problem with you saying things like, "you changed your position," when I really didn't. And I have a problem with you focusing more on who created what analogy when instead of debating the topic.

I feel no need to twist anyone's words, I react to what is written. I MUST focus on such mundane things with you to establish what was said by whom! Otherwise it becomes some muddled mess of "you saids" when neither of us have said anything of the sort. I'd love to debate the issues, so long as what is attributed to me is accurately recounted, otherwise I am forced to waste time establishing my positions over and over on the same topics.

You keep telling me that my position is one thing when it is actually something else. I keep trying to explain myself more clearly for you to understand, but it doesn't seem to be getting through. It feels like you're more focused on manufacturing some kind of contradiction instead of actually trying to understand where I'm coming from.

On the contrary. Ask Keith about the debates we've had. They got pretty complex and I made every attempt to match him point for point, which is not often easy.

I will admit that I am not the greatest writer. I'm not always as clear as I can be and I may use words from time to time that might lead someone to believe that my position is different from what it actually is. But when we get to those crossroads and I try to clarify for you what my stance is and explain to you what I originally meant and why it came across a certain way, you need to listen to me instead of holding me to some not-so-ideal wording choice that I made in a previous post. This isn't a competition in who can poke the most holes in the other person's logic, (at least it's not for me.) If you want to have a discussion with me you need to be more interested in knowing what my opinions actually are than what specific words I use. And then you need to choose to agree/disagree without the hostility.

I can understand that, however without you right in front of me I am unable to go on anything but your words and the word choices you have made.

I indeed do wish to know your opinions, but being prepared to defend those opinions is the basis to all debates.

Ultimately all our opinions have holes, accepting that and the idea that others may not accept your position is all part of a debate as well.

I harbor no hostility toward anyone here, has this been a bit frustrating for me, sure, but its just a debate, not a world ending event...

So whatever this has become, it no longer resembles a debate, and thus I am done.... Therefore I will be the first to kick over this bucket....